What’s next in digital marketing? with Jessica Aries

Episode Notes

Transcript

[00:00:27] Jessica: Hi, I’m Jessica Aries. I’m a lawyer turned digital marketer and I help law firms build profitable, sustainable practices through simple and easy marketing tactics and strategies. Hi 

[00:00:39] Karin: Jessica, I’m so excited to have this conversation. We have been connected mostly on LinkedIn for a while now through a mutual connection and.

I have to say that I honestly feel like first of all, everyone needs to go and follow you and your company. It is noticeably the best content out there on LinkedIn, for sure. I mean, it is so much better than average and I’m regularly looking at it, looking at it, thinking, oh, that was a cool way of doing that.

Like, how did you do that? that was you’re you’re always a step or two ahead of, of what everybody else seems to be doing. So very, very cool, um, approach and. Um, anyway, I’m, I’m happy to have you here, cuz I, I wanna kind of dig into all of this kind of work that you’re doing, how you do things differently.

Um, and the big question that we’re gonna talk about today is what’s next. So what’s next in digital marketing, which I think is always the big question, especially in marketing. So first of all, let’s talk about kind of how, what your approach is and how, how you even figure these things out. Like how do you even look around and, and, uh, you know, it’s, it’s so easy to kind of see what’s now and what everybody’s doing right now, but how do you figure out what’s what is coming down the road?

Like, you know, A few months or a few, you know, next year or whatever. 

[00:02:05] Jessica: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you for such a kind, uh, introduction and compliment. Um, we, we work really hard on our LinkedIn content to make it resonate, to make it connect with people, to make it helpful. Um, yes, that’s something that I think a lot of.

Folks struggle with, you know, they sit one thing I find a lot of times you, you log into a social media platform and you just stare at the cursor and you’re like, now what do I write? Right. yes. I, I find coming equipped with a plan is always a better way to approach it, but it’s hard to plan, right? Um, yes.

Anyways, that, so thank you for that because we do put a lot of thought and planning into our content. Um, but in terms of actually what’s coming next, you know, I’ve been in the legal industry for a long time. um, I went to law school back in and. Well, I graduated what, with my LLM in 2012. So it’s been a while.

Yeah. And I can tell you that, um, when looking to what’s coming next, honestly, us in legal we’re a little bit behind. So if we just look to others and kinda see what they’re doing in other. We can learn a ton. And, um, you know, especially in some of those financial services and those accounting industries, they’re already out there doing some of the work that we can emulate.

We can learn from, we can adapt into 

[00:03:19] Karin: our own accounting is, is a leading. Like a trend setting that is, that is kind of shocking right there that I can’t picture my accounting friends being trendsetters. Like that’s, it’s, I’m having a hard time with that. some, 

[00:03:32] Jessica: some of the financial services industry, some of them are, are doing things that I look to when I’m trying to convince a lawyer to try something new.

And honestly, just being. Being on the platforms, you know, and being in the trends. Yeah. And testing it out for yourself sometimes can be the best way. I mean, and I say this as someone, so in legal, especially I’ve worked with some very talented digital marketers and I’ve seen a lot of really talented digital marketers leave legal.

Yeah. And honestly, I’ve just. Followed them through their careers as they, and like I have one in particular, I’m thinking of, when you say accounting, she works at Deloitte now and she’s in their digital media program. I follow everything she says, because I know if they’re doing it at Deloitte sooner or later, the attorneys are gonna be asking me for it too.

So that’s, there are fascinating, there are things to be learned. 

[00:04:19] Karin: Yeah. That is fascinating. And I, I still am, like, when you said Deloitte, all of a sudden, I was like, okay, now the pieces are coming together. Cuz it’s a major company that is trying to be ahead of, um, the curb. I was picturing kind of accounting, smaller accounting firms, trying to, you know, but that does make sense.

So what kinds of things are you seeing? What kind, what kinds of things are, are those people who you’re following doing that that are kind of coming down the road? 

[00:04:47] Jessica: Well, they’ve really embraced short form video in a new way. They’re, they’re creating, you know, especially. We as, you know, legal professionals, we create a lot of content, but we don’t always do a great job of making it engaging.

Right. Yes. And they’re taking that content they’re making and they’re making it engaging with short form video. They’re talking about some of these new trending topics they’re even experimenting. I mean, I, I was literally in one of the metaverse platforms the other day. I think it was decent land and there’s like a huge poster for PWC, you know, those types of, oh my gosh.

Marketing yes. Yeah. Is coming is coming 

[00:05:23] Karin: okay. So what is, is this metaverse land that you’re in, that you were talking about? Because this is even, this is over my head. This, this sounds when I was getting my MBA, uh, we had a professor and I have a few friends that I, I did my MBA with that. I know listen.

And so they’ll know who exactly who I’m talking about. And he came into class and he. Raving and telling us that we were missing out because the next biggest thing was second life and he was telling us all about, you know, this is gonna be the way the world is run. Everybody’s just gonna be kind of sitting in their, um, little pods, living this online life and, you know, whatever.

Um, and anybody who’s read, um, ready player one, it’s basically like, that’s what he was picturing is like that, that. Virtual world. Um, so this is what I, and we all kind of sat and rolled our eyes and were like, what, what kind of a wacky professor is this? And I will, I will say this was our statistics professor.

That was crazy. Anyway, this is what I picture. I picture like this weirdo statistics professor talking about second life. When you start talking about the metaverse and so what, what, what is it that you’re doing? And I’m guessing it’s different from what I’m picturing in my. . 

[00:06:42] Jessica: Yeah, well, so to be honest, I’m not marketing in, in the metaverse right now.

Uh, and I’m not actually advising our clients to, unless they have a substantial say, you know, client who is in the metaverse and they need that type of footprint. But I can tell you, looking to it, knowing how it works, understanding, exploring. Especially if you’re someone who’s trying to be a forward looking attorney, if you’re trying to work in like the blockchain, the cyber kind of world, you definitely need to know the, the way the metaverse works, which is essentially, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very much like that second life platform, you log into something you’re wander, wandering around in an avatar, you know, but the difference is, is there’s already people advertising.

There’s already people setting up shop there. There’s already people meeting virtually in the metaverse with their clients now. Oh my gosh. There are still a lot of bar rules and things that need to be worked out around all of that. . Yeah. But yeah. Cause how do you even 

[00:07:37] Karin: know that you’re really meeting with that person?

And that person is really a lawyer. 

[00:07:42] Jessica: Good question. I mean, 

[00:07:45] Karin: that seems there’s, I’m so skeptical about stuff like that, that I would instantly be like, you are catfishing me. That seems really sketchy, but 

[00:07:54] Jessica: you know, how many of us Karin we’re we’re imagining we’d be taking zoom calls, right. And doing Zoom’s, you know what I mean, hundred percent discovery zoom court, you know, like.

Yeah. So we’re living in a different age. I mean, it’s, that’s true. And if anything, you know, the pandemic, everything has really just sped everything up, you know? Yeah. And, and especially, I don’t know if any of y’all have ever, ever like, had the opportunity to put on one of like those Oculuses and actually like wander around and trip over your furniture in your living room.

But if you have, like, I 

[00:08:25] Karin: have, I’ve seen them, I’ve seen all my friends post about them, so I, but I haven’t actually put one on. Okay. So what. What is that like, 

[00:08:31] Jessica: it’s, it’s, it’s a bit addictive because it is like, you are in that world. You’re manipulating the space. You’re moving through it. You have a avatar that can look like you or be anything you want it to be.

Yeah. And, um, I can totally see how in the future, the near distant future, we will be meeting and socializing in that way, just because there’s so much loss. When you think about zoom or even like in, in video, right. Of body language of the ability to kind of communicate with our, our, um, persona, you know, what we bring, um, to the room, to the space.

So, oh my God. I do see a future there. I do see, you know, I was literally reading something from. I think it was the head of the legal ministry in Singapore who was talking about having marriage license applications go through, um, through the metaverse as well as litigation avatars. 

[00:09:25] Karin: Yes. For avatars or like real people, like real 

[00:09:27] Jessica: marriage, real people.

But like say in many jurisdictions you have to be in person unless you’re in the military or something like that. Right. For getting married and you have to show up in person to get your marriage license. Right. Well, oh my gosh. If you are distanced for whatever reason due to the pandemic or whatever, right.

Why not meet up in the metaverse to get your marriage certifi. Oh my gosh. Certificate. Why do you have to physically be 

[00:09:50] Karin: there? but, okay. So I’m a huge fan of catfish, obviously, cuz it’s the second time I’ve mentioned it. All I picture is, uh, all these catfishes, like you are just saying that you’re this person you’re putting up the fake pictures.

You’re making this avatar. You’re making someone fall in love. Um, well, whether it’s a relationship or a business relationship or a marketing relationship, it just seems like there’s so much room for fraud. 

[00:10:19] Jessica: I got my business set up in the pandemic and notarized all the documents and making documents virtually.

Yeah. So if we’re notarizing documents virtually, if we’re, I mean, I don’t, I don’t think we’ve gotten in every state will signings to be virtual, but I have heard of that being a thing. Yeah. Um, uh, why not? The metaverse, you know, why not have the same kind of verification process, but then enter into the metaverse I just, yeah.

Okay. So there can’t happening. 

[00:10:47] Karin: So is there some, cause obviously I’m not in the metaverse, but is there some kind of verification process, like, especially if you’re representing like a business where you have to, you have like, like the blue check in Instagram where it’s saying this is the verified. 

[00:11:01] Jessica: I, I haven’t seen that yet.

I do know, um, some of the spaces when you’re buying some of the real estate, when you’re buying some of the footprint, there is some verification process for purchasing, like the space in the metaverse. But yeah. Um, generally I haven’t personally tried to purchase anything though, like in terms I’ve. I’ve purchased artwork, you know, I’ve purchased, you know, I’ve like, oh, let’s purchase.

Yeah. NFT type thing, right? Yeah. But not the actual space. I’m sure there’s a verification process. I would imagine, honestly, I haven’t had to try it. So maybe that’s the next step in my what’s what’s next in digital marketing. Let’s okay. I get verified, but I mean, I would think you. Wow. There’s just so many questions that come up though.

[00:11:44] Karin: There are so many questions. It just seems like that would be the first thing that lawyers and law firms would wanna know is how do I prove I am who I say I am? Um, so that, you know, the first things that most clients are looking for is trust. And being able to know for sure that not only you are who you say you are, but you’re gonna do what you say you’re gonna do.

And it just seems like there’s so many layers of suspiciousness in, in that other, in being. Online and having avatars and all of that 

[00:12:14] Jessica: stuff. But think about it like this, how long ago was it that lawyers were suspicious of the idea of people putting all their information on a website, right? Yeah. And now if you don’t have a website, you are suspicious.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like now if you don’t have a social media presence, people are like, Is this a real law firm, right? Exactly. 

[00:12:33] Karin: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been around long enough that that absolutely happened. Um, I, I mean, I started back in the days of HTML websites and lots, every, every seminar and, and bar association thing that I would go to there would always be, you know, the lawyers who said, well, why do I even need a, a website?

I’ve got the yellow pages and I’m like, come, like, get with it. Before I did this, I was working for century 21, working with realtor. and the equivalent would be that if you were gonna put together a flyer for a house and you did not include a picture of the kitchen, the assumption was there’s something wrong with the kitchen or a lot of, uh, realtors didn’t wanna put their headshot.

And for realtors, this is normal, like to have a headshot on their business card. And you know, if they’re brand new baby realtors and they didn’t wanna do that, I’m like, listen, people are. Assume that you’ve got two heads or there’s something weird about you. They need to see your face. That’s just the expectation.

So if you’re not meeting that expectation, there’s gonna be a negative assumption about it. So what else? So do you think that the metaverse is really like what’s next? Cause I feel like maybe that’s next, next, like sort of two steps or, well, yeah. Are there lawyers in there doing, doing business and you.

Is that, is that happening right now? 

[00:13:51] Jessica: Uh, yes. I, I can tell you, there are lawyers in the metaverses doing business. I have a client who actually does a ton of eCommerce work who has clients who are actually selling NFTs. And so has to be in the space, right. Because, oh, wow. That is what her clients expect.

Right. Yeah. Um, so I think it’s, it really depends on the practice, right? Like right now, I think in the future. I do agree. It’s probably next, next for most lawyers . Yeah, but those who are practicing in that space, I think understanding just like when social media first launched, just like in 2008, 2009, right.

When everyone was getting access to all these social platforms, um, there will be one day an expectation that you’re there, right? Yes. And that you have some sort of presence and you can meet virtually. So, and the people 

[00:14:34] Karin: who are first in there are going to kind of establish their, you know, throw their flag down before everybody else.

So, you know, if that’s who your clients are, you, you know, you gotta get on top of that. Yes. What other kinds of things. Sorry go . 

[00:14:48] Jessica: Oh, and I was gonna say, I was gonna say, and what’s not next, next what’s next. Like just the next part. I, I would say short, short form video, um, being visible, online and short form video is where it’s at.

Um, we’ve seen the rise of TikTok. We’ve seen the rise of Instagram reels. We’ve now see that LinkedIn’s prioritizing content that comes from TikTok crazy. Um, so that is crazy. If you are making content in short form video. In a short form way you are ahead of the curve, um, ahead of the next curve, not the next next curve, just the next curve.

[00:15:22] Karin: sorry. Right. And that’s, I think that’s, um, that is kind of like you were saying, lawyers are kind of slow to technology and, and, you know, TikTok was the thing the last few years, especially during the pandemic. And so now lawyers are just kind of catching on and catching up to all of that stuff. And. To kind of summarize, it’s all driven by TikTok.

Like that was the starting point. And so, um, it’s in that whole category called short form video, but it wa it was started by TikTok. It’s the kind of TikTok, really short videos. And like, when I talk to my clients about it, they are kind of shocked. Cause I feel like some of them aren’t even really on TikTok or know it very well.

And they’re shocked that it’s. A minute or two at the most. And they’re like, why have so many things to say oh, , 

[00:16:14] Jessica: I mean, the amount of coaching I’ve already done to attorneys on you don’t need a long intro. Like literally I’m a, this kinda lawyer and. Spit out the, the info, um, cuz we do, we do a lot of TikTok content.

We do a lot of short form video content and I can tell you, yeah, the amount of coaching we’ve done to the attorneys to just help them get, um, that really short, tight communication of the points I wanna make and then done is tough. Right? 

[00:16:39] Karin: so it is. And uh, how do you, where do you start with that? Because I feel like their, their instinct is to.

You know, cover every possible risk and make sure that they’ve got all the kind of the asterisks and all their kind of, you know, I’m gonna say a thing and then I’m gonna give you five disclaimers about it so that I don’t get myself in trouble. And it’s like, no, it’s TikTok. You can’t, you can’t do that.

So, so what do you, how do you kind of coach them through that? 

[00:17:09] Jessica: so start with the, so I always say start with the stuff that you know is basic, cuz most of the people in TikTok, aren’t looking for the deep dive into, you know, how mergers and acquisitions work. Right. , they’re looking for the very high level, uh, you know, and even talk’s a search engine, just so you know, and I’m not sure how many of your listeners are aware of that, but it is a very powerful search engine, but just like Google, the more detailed the content is.

Less likely it’s searched, right? Yes. So start with those high level topics, those common questions. You get those, not, you know, if you’re, if you’re a, you know, business formation attorney it’s do I need an LLC to have an S Corp, right. Basic questions like that. Yeah. Um, Not the, you know, what are the bilities yeah.

yeah. What, there you go. What is an LLC? You know? Yeah. um, right. Uh, what, what does it protect me from like that is literal? Like why, why should I have an LLC? Is the question. Yeah. And then here are a, a few, few reasons okay. 

[00:18:08] Karin: You know, and so then when they go to answer that, what do you tell them? How do you, how do you get them to keep it.

[00:18:15] Jessica: uh, so we actually help them script it in bullet points. Okay. And each bullet point we’re pretty strict on the bullet points where like the bullet point is like 20 words, max, you gotta fit it in there concisely. And you’re gonna say it. We actually have them record it three times. And then our video editing team picks the best delivery version we have.

’em kind of do different. Versions. And then we splice it together. So we’re never asking them to do the whole video in one take. Um, that’s where I feel like a lot of attorneys trip up, they try to like film it all in one, go, and then it feels a little rushed or disjointed or like, yeah. So we’re like, no, no rerecord it, you know, say the same line three times in different deliveries and then we’ll pick the best one and make sure you shine.

Splice it together. Yeah. To be interesting. 

[00:19:00] Karin: That’s awesome. Um, and so then, so then when you’re taking that content, do you use the same, like once, once you’ve put that video together, do you use that same content on TikTok, Instagram reels and the same video on the LinkedIn short form videos too? Or do you do slight variations?

[00:19:20] Jessica: it depends what the video content is. Right. So, um, something that’s going so on LinkedIn, it’s obviously a much more professional network. Yeah. I’m not gonna be putting like, if, if the attorney is doing something, you know, some of the attorneys embrace the goofiness of TikTok so I’m not necessarily going to advise them to put necessarily kind of the tongue and cheek goofy ones, but the ones where they’re really value based content.

You know, I’m truly gonna give you three steps to whatever, right? Yeah. That’s the stuff we would repurpose and we’d actually do it across, um, Instagram reels, YouTube shorts. Now they’re only a minute long. Um, and then TikTok and then also put it on LinkedIn. So, um, yeah, it depends. Mm-hmm . 

[00:20:01] Karin: Yeah. It’s helpful to know that you can take, you know, the majority of stuff that you’re using and you don’t have to do all these different variations.

Cause as soon as you start, uh, figuring out the amount of time that’s involved to do all the different versions for every single little thing. Yeah. It just becomes overwhelming and now, you know, you don’t have time for all this stuff. And so then it just doesn’t happen. What about, so you were talking about kind of the, the more goofy TikTok stuff.

What about like the dancing and the goofiness? Like there are some clients I’ve talked to who are like, I think it’s ridiculous that some lawyers are on TikTok and I would never do that. That seems humiliating, embarrassing. Or maybe just even InApp. . 

[00:20:45] Jessica: Yeah, so I, I would say then don’t, don’t dance. If you don’t feel, if you don’t feel comfortable dancing on camera, then I wouldn’t recommend you do it.

Um, I think you, you do the, you do the things that make you feel most comfortable, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. And it really depends on your. Professional brand too, right? Yeah. There’s obviously some attorneys who are embracing kind of the goofiness of TikTok. And I mean, many of them seem to be doing pretty well at it.

So for them that’s great, but there’s always gonna be the more, you know, suit and tie kind of lawyer or, um, you know, Bloss and jacket kind of lawyer. Who’s gonna be like, I’m never gonna do that. And that’s fine. Yeah. There’s plenty of lawyers having tremendous success on TikTok, literally sitting in front of a camera telling.

A very, you know, helpful tip on whatever the topic is in legal. You don’t have to dance on camera. You don’t have to do voice, you know, like fun cl voices or trending sounds or anything like that. Yeah. To have success on those short form platforms. Um, honestly even that’s value. 

[00:21:47] Karin: Yeah. The kind of, uh, when you have the voice voiceover thing and you’re kind of speaking.

I, I see some of those and I see that they’re, um, funny for, for some people, but then I also see ones where I’m cringing and I’m like, come on, don’t do that. Like, it’s, I’m, I’m embarrassed for you. Um, and I that’s, for me, I’m not gonna ever do that. Like that’s, I feel really self-conscious and it’s gonna come across.

On the screen that it just is not a good fit for my personality and it’s not something anybody would ever see me naturally do I joke around like that. So it’s not something I’m gonna do. And I don’t feel like I am missing out by not doing that either. Like it’s like, okay, that’s great for them, but it’s just not, not for me.

Um, What else was I gonna ask you? So what about kind of paying attention to what your competitors are doing and getting, I feel like there’s some people who get a little bit too fixated on that, like, okay, I’m just gonna take a look at this particular account and like, do that. 

[00:22:50] Jessica: Yeah, bad. so, first of all, for, I, I never, I never ever advise copying and pasting your competitor’s strategy because, uh, one thing I say a lot and I, I think I’ve said it in a few YouTube videos, you don’t know who’s an.

In charge of that marketing strategy. You don’t know if they’re an experienced marketer. You don’t know if it’s just some hair-brained idea that someone in the marketing department had, or if it’s like the attorney going rogue, you know, wanting to do something and not really having measurable KPIs, not really having goals, objectives around it.

Um, and you don’t know at the end of the day, if it’s successful, unless you’re really analyzing the data and looking at it. Yeah. And so my opinion is to always build a strategy. Based on the data. Um, and, and look at what your, how your account is performing, how your platforms are performing, how your channels are performing and build a strategy based on what, you know, versus kind of spaghetti marketing, where you’re just throwing stuff up at the wall and seeing what sticks, right?

Like that’s and me, that’s a recipe for honestly losing lots of money really quickly in marketing yes. So, um, 

[00:23:54] Karin: Well, and so that, okay. I have two questions that funnel off of that. First of all, that brings it back to this idea of planning and starting with the plan and, you know, laying out that plan and then making sure that you’re stress your, all of your content comes back to that plan.

But how do you do that when I’m planning today for maybe next month’s content? Um, And I feel like I’m already behind then, because if we’re talking about what’s next and I’m planning today, and then next month, I’m posting things that I plan today. How do I get ahead of that? And how do I stay on top of the things that are coming up next, when I’m also planning at the same 

[00:24:33] Jessica: time?

I think you build into your plan for those opportunities where you can be a thought leader or be the first to provide perspective on whatever that legal issue is. So, um, we actually, when we build content calendars for clients, we’re building in space, literally for those opportunities where they’re, we know something’s coming down the pike or we know.

Um, you know, the law might change and we’re also building some excess content just in case we need to stick something in there. But if you build into your plan a little bit of adaptability and also realize no plan is gonna be set in stone, right? Yes. You’re gonna have to adapt and be a little flexible with it.

Um, I mean, in my own marketing and my own agency, we’re adapting all the time based on trending topics and things. We build out a content calendar, but sometimes you gotta move things around. Yeah. Um, and that’s where having. You know, help to do it. to move things around for, you can be really, uh, advantageous.

Right. 

[00:25:27] Karin: So, yeah, I, we talk about this all the time because, uh, we start with strategy and planning also, and I just preach about this all the time, but at the same time, like you’re saying. Things come up. And so you have to build into that, that plan and that strategy, some cushion for the variation, because imagine all of us who are making plans in late 20, 19, or even early 2020, we had the whole year planned out.

And if it was too tight of a plan, and then all of a sudden COVID hits and the whole world kind of explodes and you. No flexibility. And you’re going full steam ahead with this plan that makes no sense for what’s happening in the world today. Then that’s, that’s a huge waste too. So I, I feel like that’s a lesson we should have all learned in the last couple years that.

The world changes and it’s unexpected 

[00:26:20] Jessica: we actually recommend operating in 90 day sprints. So we tell our clients we’re gonna work on a 90 day campaign, right? And a 90 day sprint around marketing initiatives. We’re gonna go back and measure. We’re gonna adapt. And then we’re gonna work on the next 90 day sprint because, because things do change, the law does change.

Come down the pike that you couldn’t have ever imagined like a global pandemic. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And you’ve already, already built it all out. It’s really hard to move those chess pieces. Now there’s some things that you can’t wait 90 days to do, like say you’re doing a giant event or conference or right.

Sure. Like some of those things have to be built into your longer kind of strategy and plan. But you can also be adaptable. You shouldn’t build entire, in my opinion, it’s really hard to build an entire year’s worth of content and everything without some, um, flexibility in there. So, well, I 

[00:27:09] Karin: think the two things that, the two words that you said that I don’t think get enough focus is yeah, you have your plan, but then you have to measure and adapt.

So if you are not taking a look at what’s happening, And adjusting, then you kind of don’t get how marketing works because that, that is, that is how you make it work. If you are just kind of go blind full steam ahead without adjusting for what’s working, that makes no sense. What 

[00:27:39] Jessica: makes absolutely. We actually implemented scorecards recently for all of our clients.

And we do two week look backs, and we basically measure against our own performance setting, small goals around a bigger 90 day goal. But specifically for that, that purpose of saying. Okay. Is this strategy working? Do we need to adapt? Are we doing this right? Or is this not resonating with this audience, this persona, whoever we’re trying to target.

Right. Right. And I think the key in marketing is to realize that failing failure, isn’t a bad thing in marketing. It teaches you a lot and you can learn so much from failing in a and in short, right? You don’t wanna fail for the full 90 day sprint, but failing, you know, in a two. Sprint is, is much more palatable, right.

And you can adapt readjust and hopefully save the whole 90 day plan. Right. If you’re looking at the data regularly, mm-hmm , 

[00:28:28] Karin: but I don’t even call it failing because it’s just data, you know, it’s just, okay. That group, it didn’t work with. Okay. So let’s stop doing that. And that’s some data that is actually helpful to know.

So now we don’t have to focus and put any effort and budget and information. Over there. And now we pull it back over here and we focus on this piece over here. It’s all just data and information that, um, you know, when people, when you talk about it being failing and thi then people get all emotional about it.

And it’s like, I am not an emotional kind of person so I’m like, okay, let’s just not, let’s not cry about it. Let’s let’s just go forward and, and learn from that and kind of say, okay, that was the, that was, it’s not even the wrong thing. It was just, okay, this is not. This is information that we can use to do a better job as we go forward.

[00:29:17] Jessica: Well, and I guess too. Um, so I, as a lawyer, I think about too, how you can’t win every single case, you can’t always like, but you learn something from it. Right. So if you can’t win every single case, you can’t win every single marketing campaign or initiative that you plan out and it’s okay. As long as you learn from it, it’s when you fail to learn from it.

So there is a time when you do fail. Yeah. when you fail to learn from it, that shame on you, right. Like, right. So yeah. 

[00:29:44] Karin: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. All right. So Jessica, um, it’s time for the book recommendation. I know you’ve got a great one. Uh, so what is the book that you want to recommend to the 

[00:29:53] Jessica: audience today?

Yeah, so it’s called the analytical marketer. Of course. It’s about data, it about analytics. It’s about what we measure. Yeah. I love it. Um, and it’s by Adele Sweetwood and it is a book that a CMO recommended a chief marketing officer at a large. You know, huge AmLaw 100 firm recommended to a group at a conference and I don’t know how many wrote it down, but I did.

And I read it cover to cover. And I learned so much about data collection, KPIs, learning how to measure, learning, how to really understand what’s working in marketing and what isn’t . Yeah. So if, if you’re, if this conversation interests you, if the idea of trying to better understand. What the heck all these numbers and things that your marketing department’s bringing to you, if you want to be able to say, okay, well what’s our strategy.

What’s next? Versus just being like, okay, thanks. You gave me a report, highly written in this book, highly 

[00:30:45] Karin: written. Oh, that’s awesome. So this is another question I was, I was mentioning to you that I’ve been thinking about, um, adding to the show. Uh, and so speaking of that book, what is one thing that, you know, that does.

[00:30:57] Jessica: Ooh, storytelling storytelling for sure. Oh, so, um, I am so shocked at how many lawyers have amazing stories about how they became lawyers, why they practice law, why they do what they do every day. Cuz let’s face it. Lawyers put in a lot of hours, they work really hard and they don’t always share why they do what they do.

And I’ve heard some of. Beautiful. Amazing, compelling connecting stories from lawyers. When I just asked them why’d you become a lawyer. Yeah. And I think they don’t share that enough of, you know, what motivates them, what gets them out of the bed out of bed every day and gets them to the office to work on that work.

And it’s, it’s not guys, it’s not for the majority of them, the money, like it’s, it’s so much more, it’s like, A sense of justice, morality, purpose, helping others, serving others. I think those are beautiful stories that don’t get shared enough. And, um, I know they’re a little vulnerable for some lawyers to share, but I’ve heard, you know, people who’ve clerked for Ruth Bader Ginsburg and people who have been shaped by, um, these amazing events in their lives, or, you know, even unfortunately have had.

You know, someone in their family been on the wrong side of legal and have now become lawyers in order to fight for those who unfortunately didn’t get justice. Right? Sure. And yeah, I think that storytelling and marketing is one of the most powerful tools in that it’s not used enough. 

[00:32:15] Karin: absolutely. And I feel like it’s such a waste because if you, I I’m just picturing websites and that first impression, if you connect emotionally with someone and they feel.

You totally get them and you get their problem and you can convey that, especially in a storytelling. Pretty quickly. You’ve got, ’em like, all you need to do is make it simple for them to work with you and get connected and all that stuff. But it’s so often not done that way. It’s so often just, I am ex lawyer in Y city doing Z practice area and it, there there’s no motion behind it.

There’s no reasoning. There is no feeling. And. Story. And so it just feels so flat and there’s, there’s so much there. Even if you are a brand new lawyer out of law school, there’s you can tell stories about why you are doing this. Like you said, maybe there’s some family history. Maybe there’s some reason why you chose to do this practice area, but even.

Often you’ve got these lawyers that, I mean, I have sat down and, and heard similar stories as well, where like all of a sudden you’re like, oh my gosh, I can’t stop thinking about. One case that this person told me about, and it’s not anywhere on their website, it’s nowhere in their presence. And it does.

It’s not anything they lead with and it makes, it seems like such a loss. 

[00:33:41] Jessica: Absolutely. And, um, you know, you were talking about connecting on that emotional level. I can’t tell you how many lawyers who have actually implemented the storytelling. My client hired me. And they said, because they want to work with me.

They’re not even interviewing anyone. They’re not even talking to anyone else. You know, like that is the power of great storytelling. It connects you on that level where it’s like a magnet, right? Yep. You are then the person for them and you can’t convince them otherwise, which good or bad, right. 

[00:34:08] Karin: Yeah.

Right, exactly. But then they don’t shop around. And um, all of a sudden when they get the proposal, they’re like, yes, I just need to, you know, figure out the details of this. And, um, Makes that whole relationship. Connect at a different level and, you know, feel different. It just seems easier. Uh, yeah, I couldn’t agree more with the idea of storytelling.

So aside from that, what’s, what’s one thing that you’d like, um, people to take away from this episode in terms of, you know, what’s next with, with digital marketing. 

[00:34:38] Jessica: What I’m gonna say is gonna scare all the lawyers out there, but data , but data is your friend. You know, data is your friend. And, and, and the only reason I say that is because, um, you know, we’ve talked about TikTok.

We talk about the metaverse, don’t go jump on those platforms unless you know, your clients are there, look at the data. Yes. Look at the information, go back, you know, and think about the consultations, the discovery calls, all of that. You’ve had. With your clients, what are they asking for? What do they really want and serve them?

What you do best serve them, um, provide that service. So before you jump into TikTok making, you know, dancing videos or on the metaverse, right, like put down your flag there. I highly recommend looking at the data. So I know that sounds scary, but, um, honestly, the data is your friend. 

[00:35:19] Karin: Honestly for, for someone like me, who also has that kind of analytical brain, that makes sense.

And that actually makes me feel more comforted and safe to think, okay, I don’t need to jump into the metaverse if I don’t feel like my clients are there. And if I don’t feel like that’s going to help me serve the them. However, if my clients. Tech startups and they’re all in the bay area and they’re gonna be in there looking for someone like me, then I gotta be there.

So, you know, figuring out, basing it on some real strategy and not just jumping in just because they heard this podcast. some random idea. just because it’s 

[00:35:59] Jessica: next. Next doesn’t mean it’s right for you in this moment. Right. and not all of us need to be in the next next. 

[00:36:05] Karin: Yeah. Yes. I love. I love that. Yeah. Okay.

Uh, that I feel like is a perfect ending. Jessica Arias is a digital marketing strategist and she, honestly, everybody needs to connect to, for sure, her LinkedIn, cuz just to see some of this content it’s great stuff. And for sure you can get a sense of these short form videos that she’s talking about and how to do it in a helpful, really engaging way.

So take a look at that and also her website and all of that other stuff that we’ll link to on the show notes, uh, on the show page. So thank you so much for being here. This was awesome. 

[00:36:35] Jessica: Thank you, Karin. You have a great day. yeah, like.

 

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