Get Comfortable, Get Busy: Networking And Media Relations. Yes. You. Can.

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Managing your law practice can be challenging, marketing, time management, attracting clients, and all the things besides the cases that you need to do that aren’t billable. Welcome to this edition of the Unbillable Hour, the Law Practice Advisory podcast. This is where you’ll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson here on Legal Talk Network.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Welcome to The Un-Billable Hour. I am your host, Christopher Anderson, and today’s episode is about acquisition and specifically we’re going to talk today about communications, how you best communicate to attract people to your business. You’ll remember in the main triangle of what it is a law firm business must do. We’ve got all of us to acquire new clients, which is acquisition writ large. That’s what we usually talk about. But in this case, we’re also going to be talking about communications to attract omni new team to just attract people to your business and how to conduct that communication. We also talk about producing the results that you promised. We call that production and achieving the business and professional results for the owners, the measurement part, and of course, in the center of that triangle, driving it all for better or worse is you. But today we’re talking about communications and how you can be better at it.

And for that, my guest today is Dr. Janet Falk. She is the chief strategist at Fault Communications and research. Janet is a communications professional with more than 30 years of experience as a consultant and at public relations agencies. And as the chief strategist at FA Communications and Research, she advises attorneys at small law firms. Hey, that’s why she’s here on media relations and marketing communications to attract new clients, remain top of mind with prior clients, keep in touch with referral sources, help recruit associates, generate news stories about litigation to put pressure on opposing counsels, et cetera, et cetera, but communications to achieve your business goals. Janet also leads workshops on these topics that has published articles on media relations and marketing in New York Law Journal, New Jersey Law Journal Marketing, the law firm, and is a frequent speaker on webinars and podcasts about public relations. So we’re really excited to have Janet here. Janet, welcome to the show.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Thank you so much, Christopher. I’m excited to be here and talk to your audience

Christopher T. Anderson:

And I think they’re going to be excited to hear what you’ve got to talk about communications, and I’m just going to tease the audience at the end. You’ve got a little bit of an offer for them, so everybody stick around to the very end. Janet’s going to let you know how you can engage if this material is interesting for you. Let’s begin just to kind of legitimize why the listeners here should listen to you. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into helping small law firms with communications?

Dr. Janet Falk:

It’s a good question, Christopher, and appreciate the opportunity. My last job, job as an employee was working for a public relations firm that had as its principal client, one of the AM law 50. And when that ended in December of 2008 and I was thrust on my own once again as a solopreneur, I decided I wanted to continue working with law firms. However, all the major firms were fully staffed or were disassociating themselves from their staff, so there really wasn’t an opportunity to remain associated with big law. Now I looked around and I decided that law firms that had fewer than a hundred attorneys or probably fewer than 30 attorneys would be a better market for me. They wouldn’t need me on staff all the time because they didn’t have enough business. But there would be occasions when they would want to promote a point of view or they were bringing litigation and wanted to focus news on the particular matter. So it would put pressure on opposing counsel and make them want to settle. So that’s how I decided to work with smaller law firms. It was really a case of making lemonade out of lemons

Christopher T. Anderson:

Cool and try to help firms with that. That sounds like something from time to time that almost all of us need and maybe don’t get or don’t engage, but from time to time, all of us do need it. I have a colleague who has a phrase that I’ve tried to remember, which is try to make hay when the sun is shining. So when something really good happens in your business, someone like you to help get that word out, to make that hay out of it while it’s still relevant can be really, really important. So to that point, what size is too small? When are you not really right for a firm? Is there a certain firm size below which shouldn’t really mess with working with you or someone like you?

Dr. Janet Falk:

Not at all because it could be that you are a solo attorney and I have a number of clients who I work with on a project basis who are solo attorneys who they have one case or one issue that they want to raise the flag and they want people to be more aware of it. And if only they knew what Janet and Christopher and this attorney knew, they would save time, save money, or make more money whether they were representing individuals or whether they were representing business owners or corporate executives. So any attorney, any size law firm is an opportunity to raise the flag, call attention to yourself and the success that you’ve had dealing with your clients and what you could be doing for the next person.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Cool. And do you work mostly on things that sounds somewhat transactional, right? This thing happened, want to get the word out or I have this goal. I think one of the things you said, I said, but it was in your bio that get a news story out about litigation that puts pressure on the opposing council. Those are kind of transactional events. Do you also work with people on a more ongoing with a strategic initiative that sort of breaches that barrier between pure marketing and marketing communications?

Dr. Janet Falk:

Yes, I do that from time to time. It really depends on what the particular client needs, who they’re trying to reach, what are the best ways of getting out in front of that audience or that series of audiences.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Cool. So talking about getting out in front lawyers, I think I forget the research on this, but lawyers are overwhelmingly introverts, which is sort of surprising because everybody thinks of lawyers when somebody says, oh, I’m a lawyer, if they’re not one, everybody pictures you in court, banging your fist in front of a jury and being exhibiting extrovert behaviors. But the truth is that most lawyers are introverts. And so when you say getting out in front, a lot of lawyers have a lot of opportunities. In fact, I just spent on the past two days at a conference called CLE Ocon and I think there were 2,500 people here. So there’s lots of events, lots of networking, lots of opportunities to get a message or get in front of people, but they introvert tendencies in lawyers dread. This is not the fun thing for lawyers to do, but they get into a lot of networking events. So when you think about when you work with people on their communications, what’s the purpose of going to a networking event or what should their purpose be of going to a networking event?

Dr. Janet Falk:

Anyone should go to a networking event because many attorneys say their best clients come from referrals.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Absolutely.

Dr. Janet Falk:

And where do referrals come from? They come from your network. So if you want to be getting more referrals, then you have to be cultivating a network of people who will know and respect you and will send you business. And likewise, you have to be sending referrals back to them. So it’s very important to have an open mind about networking. It’s not about walking into a room where you don’t know anyone and you’re going to start panicking because you’re there by yourself and you don’t know who to talk to and you don’t know what to say. I have a very specific strategy, Christopher, and if you like, I can detail it now.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Absolutely want you to, but before you do, I just want to kind of get your critique on this because what I observe, and I’m one of these people by the way, I hate networking events. I just really dread them. I go to them and I’d love to hear your advice. Other advice that followed, and it’s really helped me, but an observation that I have is that I see I go to these networking events and I’ve been doing this for closing in on 30 years, particularly at these things like these technology events. Like these are the same damn people I’ve been seeing for 20 years and I go into a room and they’re talking to their friends. Everybody goes in these supposedly networking events and they’re talking to the same people they talk to every single time. Is that what people should be doing? That’s the softball I’m tossing you before we go into what your advice is.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Okay. I think that there are a variety of networking goals that you can have when you go to a networking event. So there’s a difference, as you say, when you’re walking into a new event and when you’re walking into an event where some of the people or you’ve been attending over the years. Now my view of life in business is everyone has a problem and everyone has a solution. So when I go to a networking event, I want to be recruiting resources. I want to know what is your solution, and I want to know what is your problem. And then I will consider who in my sphere might have a problem that you could represent a solution for. And if you have a problem, then I want to rack my brain and figure out who it is that I know who might be a solution for you.

So if one of my goals is to recruit resources in this problem solution paradigm, then what I’m going to do is talk to at least three people in the course of the event so that I can be gathering these names and their interests and their problems and their solutions as my resources. So that’s one goal. Now, another reason to go to a networking event and to have a goal is to maintain context. As you just said, people reconnect with the people that they already know. So if they’re the people that you see annually at Clio Con or some a meeting or if the people that you see every week or every month in a different kind of networking group, you want to keep up with what’s going on and maintain context. So you want to be working the room in that way. Now, there’s another thing that you can do at a networking event, and that is stay up to date informally.

Find out who’s hiring, who got a new case, who had a big win, who’s moving across town who published an article. And this way you will be gathering information that you can be sharing informally among your many contexts. Maybe you want to learn from the speaker. In that case, you’re not going to be focused so much on networking with the other people in the room. You’re going to be focused on taking copious notes because after this session, you’re going to be writing a client alert or writing a newsletter or posting on LinkedIn or some other social media platform, whatever it is that you have learned because that person was at the front of the room, they have their finger on the pulse of what’s happening, and you want to show that you are in the know. So you are going to be sharing the latest and greatest of whatever it was that they discussed. So if you look at the big picture of goals and you think, I’m going to recruit resources, I’m going to talk to three people, I’m going to maintain contacts, I’m going to circulate among the people I know I’m going to stay up to date informally, again, chatting with people on a casual basis. I’m going to learn from the speaker so that I can be sharing what it is that’s new and exciting and different.

If you do all these things and you find ways of sharing this information, then you’ll be seen as someone who is a connector and someone who is in the know, and you’ll be seen as someone who can be a resource to other people, even making introductions and making referrals. So remember we said your best clients come from referrals. Referrals come from your network. And the more that you connect to others, whether they’re the people you already know or the people you want to get to know, then you will be seen as a valuable resource and a person worth networking with.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And so what jumped out at me, there’s a couple of things that you said. I think this is really cool because it’s the overwhelm, right? So you walk into one of these rooms, there’s 50 people, a hundred people, sometimes 300 people. How do you boil the ocean? You just walk in there like, oh, wow, because you used the phrase work the room, and that’s what the phrase that is intimidating, right? It’s like, how am I going to work this room? What you said was three people, you’re not working the room. You don’t need to get in there and talk to five 50 people. You talk to three people and then a couple of other discreet goals, maintain contact, stay up to date informally. What I noticed you didn’t say was ask for business or ask for referrals. So those weren’t among the goals. Can you just talk to that a little bit?

Dr. Janet Falk:

Well, I would say, Christopher, that it’s not the first person that you meet.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah,

Dr. Janet Falk:

It may be. I mean, I have had that happen to me where I met someone and they expressed an interest and we had a further conversation. But it’s not always the first person that you meet. It’s someone else who stands in their circle, and you never know who stands in someone else’s circle until you have that occasion. Let me give you an example. I went to an event where it was professionals who are consultants to the nonprofit sector, and I knew a number of people who were going to be there because it was a core networking group that was part of the organization that hosted the event. I go to this event and I meet this woman, her name is Rachel. She just graduated with her master’s in public administration and she’s looking for a job. What is she interested in? Social impact. Oh, I should introduce you to Bruce. He’s interested in social impact and social enterprise. Come with me. I see him on the other side of the room. So Rachel and I walk to the other side of the room. I say, Bruce, I want you to meet Rachel. She just graduated and with her master’s in public administration, she’s interested in social enterprise. I’m sure you’ll have a lot to talk about. And with that, they started their conversation. I gently excuse myself and then two weeks later I hear from Bruce, Janet, thank you so much for introducing me to Rachel. I hired her.

So here Rachel had a problem, which was she needed a job and Bruce didn’t know he needed to hire somebody, but he met Rachel and she was so good that he wanted to hire her. Now, neither of them knew walking into that room that I was going to connect them, and yet it worked out beautifully. So it’s not the first person that you meet, Christopher?

Christopher T. Anderson:

No, no.

Dr. Janet Falk:

That’s a great example. Someone who stands in their circle.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And I think this whole notion of circles is really important, right? What’s happening at these things? Conversation starts. There’s a circle of people and you don’t really, I think even it’s safe to say you don’t actually know who you’re talking to. You may be having a conversation with one person, but you don’t know who’s listening to you. That’s the most important person in that circle. We’re going to take a break here. We’ve got sponsors and they want their message to get out and be communicated to our listeners as well. I’m talking everybody with Dr. Janet Faulk. She’s the chief strategist at Faulk Communications and Research. And when we come back, I want to switch our of focus here because we’ve talked about what to do once you’re in the event, but I want switch our focus to what events you should think about, where should you go and to achieve these goals.

Because if you go to the wrong things, the people that you want to talk to aren’t necessarily going to be there. But first we’re going to hear a word from our sponsors and we’ll be right back. And I’m back with Dr. Janet Faulk again, the chief strategist at Faulk Communications and Research. We were talking before the break about how to set your goals and what goals to have when going to a networking event. And I said, when we came back, we’re going to talk about how to choose what event, but I was reminded that Dr. Faulk suggested a technique about how to actually be effective in the networking event, and we didn’t talk about that yet. So Janet, let’s let the listeners in on your technique.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Great. I love to talk about this. A lot of people are nervous about walking cold into a room where they don’t know anyone.

The way to deal with this is to warm up the room. You warm up the room by creating what I call a welcoming committee. Now, how do you do this? Let’s say that the Downtown Accountants Association is having an event and you decide you’re going to go because you’re a trust and estates attorney and you often work with accountants. The first thing you do is you go to the Downtown Accountants website and you find out who are the principal officers, the president, the vice president, the membership chair, and the program chair. Now you’ll figure out their email addresses, which should be pretty easy to do, and if not, you can find them on LinkedIn and you send them a note and you say, will we meet at the November 21st networking event? And then you describe that you found their name as an officer of the Downtown Accountants Association, and you’re an attorney. You work in trust and estates, you often work with accountants and you’re interested in joining the organization because you think it’d be a good opportunity for you and you have a lot of information to share with their members and you hope to meet this person at the networking event. Now, Christopher, you get this email from someone you don’t know, [email protected]. Are you going to the networking event and explains about her background and trust and estates? What are you going to do when you get this unexpected email? And after all, you are the membership chair.

Christopher T. Anderson:

If I’m the membership chair, I’m going to make a note to find you when I get there.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Actually, you’re going to write me back.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Oh, or I might do that.

Dr. Janet Falk:

You’re going to write me

Christopher T. Anderson:

Back. I’m bad with the rhetorical question.

Dr. Janet Falk:

You’re going to say, I’ve got a hot one here. This woman wants to join. Our membership group wants to join our group. I’m the membership chair. I’m going to write back to her. And you’re going to say, Janet, of course I’m going to the event. I’m the membership chair. I look forward to meeting you and so on. Now, I get this very warm email back from the membership chair. I’m going to write back to you and I’m going to say, Christopher, I’m even more excited to attend this program and I know it’s going to be very crowded. So to make sure that you can find me, I’m going to wear this distinctive article of clothing. Now, if I’m a man or a woman going to court, I’m going to be wearing a dark suit and everybody else is too, right? But I’m going to be wearing, if I’m a man, a green tie or a red pocket square.

And if I’m a woman, I’m going to bring a red scarf. But in fact, I work in public relations, so I’m going to be wearing a blue blazer because I have a little more leeway in what I can wear. And so I include this article of clothing in my email to you so that you’ll be able to find me. Now comes the day of the event. I look up your website or your LinkedIn profile so that I can see what you look like. I want to be able to find you and recognize you. I go to the registration desk and I say, is Christopher here? I’m supposed to meet him. And they’ll say, oh yes, he’s that tall fellow over there. And I go over and I say, Christopher, I’m Janet Falk. We were an email correspondence. Tell me about the organization. Tell me about your plans for membership and so on. And you are more than happy to talk to me about the organization because you want me to join and become a member. So we’re chatting away. I get to know a little bit about your accounting practice. I tell you a little bit about my practice, and then I say, I’d really like to keep in touch with you. Do you have a business card?

Always ask for the business card before you offer it.

And I’m going to say just a minute, I know I promised to send you an article or a newsletter or a name of somebody that you should get in touch with. So let me just write this down on the back of your business card so I will remember to follow up. And by the way, I have a monthly newsletter if you’d like to keep in casual conversation with me, would you like to sign up for my newsletter? And of course you’re going to say yes. And then we take a selfie photo and I say, Christopher, I’ve so much enjoyed speaking with you, but I’d really like to meet Jean, the president of the organization. Will you introduce me to Jean? And of course you’re going to say yes because how can you say no, right? Sure. And as we’re walking over to meet Jean, I want to let you know, Christopher, that in this circumstance I have mind reading skills. So we meet Jean and you introduce me and I say, Jean, I just had this great conversation with Christopher and he was telling me about his new initiative for the membership and what he plans to do next and so on. And this is my mind read. Jean says that Christopher, he’s on the ball. He’s bringing in new members. And Christopher, you think that Janet folk, she just made me look brilliant to Jean the president. I love her.

So now we’re having a conversation. The three of us, you’re going to excuse yourself. Jean and I are talking, we exchange business cards. And I say, Jean, I have an idea for a program. Who should I talk to about this? And she says, oh, you should go talk to Billy over there. And I can go over to Billy and I say, Billy, I’m Janet Faulk. Jean told me to talk to you about my idea for a program. Now look at this. I walked into the room, I didn’t know anyone, and now I have met three of the movers and shakers of the organization and they want to talk to me because I contacted them in advance. I let them know I was interested and they are dedicated to the growth of the organization. They are recruiting me to be a member.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, no, that’s brilliant. That’s brilliant. And I think that it’s, that sets you up, but then how you used it and leveraged it in this hypothetical, but I’m sure this hypothetical is something you’ve repeated over and over and over again in real life.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Exactly. And no one else does it. So not only is it effective, it’s effective because you are the only one who’s doing it,

Christopher T. Anderson:

But now you let your secret out. Now everybody knows,

Dr. Janet Falk:

Let everybody do it more for everybody. There’s enough business to go around.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah. So let’s get back to the other question then. So this is great. We all get invited to a lot of things and it’s hard to decide which ones to go to and which ones not to other than the ones that my friends are going to, which are probably not the best criteria. So how do you choose what events, what networking and opportunities to attend?

Dr. Janet Falk:

There are two kinds of groups. There are homogeneous groups where people have similar backgrounds. As I mentioned, I went to this event where we were all consultants dealing with nonprofit clients, although we all had different professions. So there are homogeneous groups where there’s a common bond, and then there are heterogeneous groups, which are seemingly a random mix of people. Now you have to decide for yourself who are to be your best context. Are there going to be people who are already working with your same kind of client or with your same profession or in your same industry? Or are you looking to diversify? Because everyone knows someone worth knowing. You don’t know who stands in their circle. So you might be wanting to work in a network in a heterogeneous setting. So it depends on what it is that your goal might be, That’ll determine whether you want to be in this homogeneous group or in that heterogeneous group and so on.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Okay, well that makes definitely a lot of sense. So we’re going to take one more break and when we come back, Janet, I’d like to turn our attention now to not techniques, but really just tactics. How do you get ready and what do you bring to the networking event to be most effective? But first a word from our sponsors, and we’ll be right back. We are back with Dr. Janet Fa. She is again the chief strategist of fall communications and research. And we’ve been talking about networking. You can’t, I’m just going to pitch this right here. Right now, you can’t prepare enough these networking events, just a lot of people use ’em as social events. I call it sometimes net socializing or drinking events, but there’s real power here. And when you look at that technique that Janet went over, that’s just powerful stuff. And if you approach each event like that, boy, just to me, Janet, it feels like it takes the fear out of it. I’ve got a plan, I’m going to go execute that plan and then I’m done. But so I said I teased that when we came back. We’re going to talk about logistics, and it’s one of the things we’ve given people this really great technique to go prepare the ground. I think you said warm up the room, which I like that, but so let’s talk a little bit about just plain old logistics. When you are about to go to a networking event, what should you bring? Let’s start there. What should you bring with you?

Dr. Janet Falk:

You should bring two things. One is your business card and make sure you have too many Because You don’t want to run out of business cards. There are some people who simply connect by phone or with LinkedIn profiles on their phone, and I think that’s fine, but that’s not my approach. I like a business card because I am always suggesting to someone else, you should read this article, you should listen to this podcast, and if I get your business card, then I can make a note to myself of what it is that I’ve promised you. Now, you mentioned Christopher, that you were at Clio Con. And if you’re going to a conference, there’s a little different twist to this. I have a client, what she does is she takes a photo of the business card and she sends it to her assistant and says, send Christopher the slide deck about X. And then Christopher, at the end of the day, when you go back to your hotel room and you’re checking your email, you get from my assistant the slide deck about X, and then the next day you see me and you say, Janet, thank you so much for sending me that slide deck. I really enjoyed reading that material. So if you’re at a multi-day event, think about that approach of

How to use someone’s business card to create a continuing dialogue. So the first thing you should bring, of course, is business cards.

Christopher T. Anderson:

That makes sense.

Dr. Janet Falk:

And I like to keep my business card in my left pocket so that I can take it out of its case and give it to you, and then I keep your business card in my right pocket so that I never give it out to anybody else.

I’m sure we’ve all had that experience, but there’s something else that you can bring, and that is you can bring a small giveaway item. Now, a lot of people give away a pen and you can never have too many pens, but it’s kind of awkward to carry around with you. So instead, I have a four paneled card. It’s the size of a business card, and it’s called Five Fast Tips to Maximize a Media Phone Interview. And it has my name in my website, URL, and inside are the five tips. And then on the back it has my phone number and a QR code so that you can sign up for my newsletter. So this not only is the size of a business card that you can keep in your wallet or keep on your desk for when you need five fast tips to maximize a media phone interview, but it displays my expertise. So if you have a certain kind of practice where you can be giving an example of your expertise beyond just your business card, but something small enough that it’s not going to take up a lot of bulk, then I would encourage your listeners to try that approach as well.

Christopher T. Anderson:

That sounds amazing. So those are two great things to bring in talking with you before, there was one other great thing that you suggested people bring, which is something to say, a canned short thing to say about yourself. When asked, what is this? How can you make it good?

Dr. Janet Falk:

An elevator pitch ideally is about 30 to 40 seconds. So it doesn’t take a very long time. It’s something that you practice repeatedly so that you can rattle it off. I’ve given many because I was in a networking group where we had to give elevator pitches all the time. So it could be 75 to 84 words, trust me on this. So what you want to do is you want to capture the person’s attention right from the get go. So keynote speakers know that you have the first 15 seconds to grab someone’s ear, so you can do one of the following. You can ask a question, you can tell a story, or you can give an alarming statistic. All of these will stick in the ear of the person that you’re speaking with, and they will want to hear the rest. They will want to hear the end of the story. They’ll want to hear the answer to the question, and they will want to understand that alarming statistic.

When you’re giving your elevator pitch, you want to make sure that you’re speaking appropriately to the other person. If they’re an attorney, you can use certain references and language, but if they’re an accountant or if they’re another kind of consultant, they may not understand those references. So you want to make sure that the content of what you say is going to align with that person’s background and with their interests. You also have to practice. You want to make sure that you can deliver this smoothly and you’ll speak clearly so that the other person won’t be bored and won’t stop listening to whatever it is that you have to say and make sure that you ask for the sale if at all possible.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And what do you mean by that? How do you work that in?

Dr. Janet Falk:

I’ll give you my elevator pitch, and

Christopher T. Anderson:

I was actually going to ask you too. Yeah, that’s great.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Okay. When you see someone in the news and they’re talking about your area of practice, do you think, why are they talking to them and not me? I’ll tell you, reporters call the people they know. They don’t call an attorney that they never heard of. I’m Janet Faulk and I introduce my clients who are attorneys with a solo practice or at a small firm to reporters so that they can be seen in the news talking about vital issues. If being in the news will help you grow your practice, then get in touch with me, Janet Faulk strategy for media coverage.

Christopher T. Anderson:

That is perfect, and that is a perfect place to end the episode. We are unfortunately out of time. There’s some episodes we do, Janet, that time seems to fly, and this is one of ’em, and we just have so much more we could talk about, but we can’t because that wraps up this edition of the Unbillable Hour. So I want to thank all our listeners for sticking with us, and I did promise them something for you, but I want to remind them that our guest today has been Dr. Janet Faulk, and she’s the chief strategist at Faulk Communications Research. And you can learn more about Janet. She’s got a website, www.janetlfaulk.com, and that’s FALK is Janet, LFAL k.com. And Janet, you had a suggestion for how people can engage further with you.

Dr. Janet Falk:

Yes, they’re welcome to visit my website or to look for me on LinkedIn. I offer a complimentary strategic communications consultation. We can talk about your networking, your website, your LinkedIn profile, your media outreach, and I guarantee two ideas.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Excellent. Janet, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr. Janet Falk:

My pleasure. I really enjoyed

Christopher T. Anderson:

It. Yeah, it’s been great. And of course, this is Christopher T Anderson, and I look forward to being with all of you listeners next month with another great guest as we learn more about topics that help us build the law firm business that works for you. And remember, you can subscribe to all the additions of this [email protected] or on iTunes. And don’t forget, you can be with us on the third Thursday of every month at 3:00 PM Eastern, 12 o’clock Pacific time at the community table where you can ask me and my guests questions about what will help you or where you’re stuck in growing your law firm business. It’s live, it’s spontaneous, and you get great advice from me, from Joshua Lennon of Clio because Clio has sponsored the Community table and other guests that we bring to the community table to get your questions answered on the spot. So join us third Thursdays at three o’clock Eastern. And until then, thank you for joining us and we will speak again soon.

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