How can lawyers give better presentations? with Tyler Foley

Episode Notes

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:26] Tyler: Hi, I’m Tyler Foley. I’m the author of the power to speak naked. A father husband. Secret form beaches and lover of fine chocolate. And I am excited to be here today. 

[00:00:40] Karin: That’s a fantastic intro. I love all of those details. I feel like it could apply to so many different platforms, like all your social media, any kind of networking.

[00:00:51] Um, that’s a great intro. Thank you for, uh, thank you for being here to begin with. And, uh, I’m really looking forward to our conversation. So today we are talking to Tyler Foley and our big question is going to be, or is how can lawyers give better presentations? And Tyler has extensive background. He’s written a book about this.

[00:01:13] Uh, and so we’re going to talk more in detail, but Tyler let’s just start what’s. What’s the first area that you would talk about in terms of lawyers and presentations and where it’s all going 

[00:01:26] Tyler: wrong. Unfortunately, it’s kind of ingrained in the profession that when a lawyer to be honest, any professional speaks, this is, this applies to accountants.

[00:01:40] This applies to doctors. Like if you, if you are in some form of professional capacity and you’re given the platform to speak, I think the false conception is that you need to speak the whole time and you need to fill that. Yes. And I think a lot of that, particularly from a legal profession, because, um, when you’re giving an opening statement or a closing statement is that that’s kind of your time to speak and, and give.

[00:02:15] Remember that during the, and this is, you know, if you are actually going to trial and I realized that the majority of legal work is actually trial work. That it’s a lot, you know, one-on-one uh, or, or one-on-one few working within a boardroom scenario, but this applies in either scenario. Yeah. A lot of times you’re having a dialogue, you’re speaking, you’re getting information and somebody is then returning.

[00:02:42] Yeah. And when you’re giving a presentation, Any presentation that is really the key to have a dialogue, as opposed to a monologue. There was a really interesting study that was done that showed 92. You’ll have 92% engagement with your audience. So that is if you had a hundred people, 92 of them would be tuned into your message if you are including them in the conversation, 

[00:03:07] Karin: if you’re selling.

[00:03:08] Yeah. And then did they, did they measure what happens if you don’t? 

[00:03:12] Tyler: Yep. Goes down this 78 0 9. And I would argue that it’s actually more, but that, that was their version of engagement. Was could people recall what was said? 

[00:03:24] Karin: Okay. So that’s a pretty low bar. Yeah. Yeah. So this leads right into the next question.

[00:03:30] So how do you do that? How do you have that engagement? Because a lot of. Uh, the clients that we work with, a lot of the lawyers there, I feel like there’s a lot of different buckets when we talk about presentations and speaking, there’s what you talked about being in a trial, there is that interaction with the potential client.

[00:03:47] But I have a lot of clients who also actually give a kind of speaking. They do speaking at events and things like that. So there’s yeah, exactly. Exactly. So how, how do you engage when you’re up on a stage and you got like a. 

[00:04:01] Tyler: So here, first of all, lose the damn PowerPoint. There is a reason that my book is called the power to speak naked and the, the there’s many, many layers to that title, but one of them is to be able to give a, um, a raw presentation.

[00:04:20] You don’t need a PowerPoint. PowerPoint is going to be the biggest thing that gets your audience to disengage because Hey, it’s. And there’s a, there’s a, there’s something about priming it’s okay. To prime your audience so that they can have an expectation of what’s coming. But if you’re just going to tell them, you might as well have given them a handout and walk.

[00:04:36] Yeah. Right. Exactly. It’s hot. PowerPoint is, is misunderstood and misused. Um, if you look at really good stage presenters, yeah. They will use the PowerPoint for the graphic. Right. Um, A, um, a picture speaks a thousand words. So you put up a graphic, a single graphic. You are saving yourself theoretically 16 minutes worth of speaking because the average person speaks around 60 words a minute.

[00:05:07] That’s the same as a heartbeat, right? So if we’re speaking 60 words a minute and you, and a picture speaks a thousand words, a graphic theoretically will help you with 16 minutes of content, give or take that’s some rough math. It’s not quite useful. I love that. Right. But as soon as you start putting the text on it, what is it?

[00:05:25] That’s words now you’re taking away from the visual that was there. And so you did the PowerPoint is going to be the first one, because the other thing is too is at that point, uh, you’re going to be so tempted to get lazy with your presentation and start reading off the PowerPoint. Of course. So really.

[00:05:46] The best way to engage your audience is to shock talk to your office. 

[00:05:51] Karin: Yes. I’m thinking of two examples that have been spinning through my head, as you’re talking, I’m thinking about Steve jobs, of course, because he was just like, you know, the trailblazer for these kinds of presentations where he stands in front.

[00:06:05] Black stage black screen and there’s like one word or one picture or a photo of an iPhone. So Steve jobs, and then also Ted talks. I mean, Ted talks have become like the, the definition of how to do a great talk and you don’t ever see Ted talks there it’s all graphics or images and there’s no text overlay.

[00:06:26] And there’s definitely no. Five levels of bullets and sub points in full, complete sentences. If someone is reading 

[00:06:34] Tyler: from yeah, well, and, and the thing is, is even a bad TedTalk. So you look the difference between an, an incredible Ted talk like those, you know, the ones that are getting the 10 million views and somebody who has made the Ted platform.

[00:06:48] So they’re, they have. Engagement. They, they can give a presentation. Yeah. It has something to think about, but maybe it doesn’t have that engagement. You look at the difference and I promise you, the ones that have the highest engagement are the ones that included the audience in the interaction. That’s so good.

[00:07:05] They may not have actually been talking to them. Like I like to talk to my audience. I will ask questions who agrees with this? Who’s experienced something like this. How do you feel about that? Uh, and especially if I can get somebody who has a counter. Yeah. I’d love to explore a counter view because tell me more about that.

[00:07:24] Why’d you feel that way? Can you give me an example? Let me give you an example of why I feel this way and that’s, and I mean, you can have that conversation. It’s wonderful. Can always do that. 

[00:07:35] Karin: But anytime you’re telling a story, when you have a villain, you have to have a villain. And, uh, you know, it’s, it’s, I’ve seen a great quote where it’s like a Harry Potter without Voldemort is just a kind of sad little boy, you know, like it’s not a very great story.

[00:07:49] You have to have the villain in the story. And so if you can find a way, uh, even in your presentation to kind of play to that counterpoint and really get people emotionally connected in there, you’re 

[00:08:01] Tyler: solid. Um, mentors that I work with calls it, throwing rocks. It’s like, where are you going to, who are you going to throw rocks at?

[00:08:10] And, uh, like for me, it was so hard. Cause like one of the things that I talk about in my book is the thing you’re afraid to say is probably what your audience needs to hear. Yes. One of the things that I was terrified to say, because I didn’t want to offend anyone. Right. Was that. Absolutely despise Toastmasters.

[00:08:32] And I think it’s ruining good speakers.

[00:08:38] I was terrified to publicly say that for years 

[00:08:43] Karin: that. Okay. So let’s, let’s talk about that because I really think like that’s the, here’s the villain in our story for this podcast. Let’s, let’s talk about Toastmasters for a minute and like what they’re doing wrong in terms of this, this whole, for those of you who are listening, he is just shaking his head.

[00:09:01] This will be on YouTube so that you can enjoy the visuals of that. If you want to go and, you know, give me a couple clicks over on YouTube as well, but, okay. So let’s dig in to Toastmasters and. What is wrong with their approach? 

[00:09:16] Tyler: Oh, Caryn. This is where you only have like 15 minutes left. Right? So here’s the thing.

[00:09:22] I think what, before I just completely decimate them. What Toastmasters does well is give people a place to feel safe, to speak in public. Yeah. Bless their hearts for doing that because I think that’s important. Yes. The problem is. Every they’re so structured that you don’t have any freedom or flexibility.

[00:09:50] And when they get really good speakers there, they just assume that you’ve mastered their technique. And you’re like, no, I don’t need to worry about how many ums or filler words I use. We use those in natural speech. You want to have your presentation sound natural. Natural. Yeah. You need to have some of those in there and you can’t be terrible.

[00:10:11] And petrified of the, but what you do need to is have so much confidence in your messaging and know your material so good that you don’t need to use them often. Yeah. And that’s, that’s one of the first things that the other thing too, God, get off the script. You want to make your audience, offer them a Labatt tummy before offering them a scripted presentation.

[00:10:37] And I don’t think Toastmasters fully understand. 

[00:10:40] Karin: Yeah, it seems like they’ve just, um, they’ve got, they’ve got their script for lack of a better word, but they’ve got their template and they created it however many decades ago and then they have not adjusted with the times. And I think maybe a script way back when.

[00:10:59] That was, that was good and comfortable for those people who are just getting started in that. But that’s just not where anybody is at anymore. And that’s not where a kind of corporate speaking is any more either. I think maybe way back in the day, uh, that was, that was the appropriate way to present things.

[00:11:15] But now with the internet and social media, everybody wants to feel like they know and trust those people. And if you sound screen. That’s, that’s not trustworthy. They’re going to instantly kind of pull back and think I’m waiting for the sales pitch and that, you know, it doesn’t, it just doesn’t, 

[00:11:34] Tyler: here’s the thing.

[00:11:36] If you need to have a script, that’s fine. Like when I do my presentations, I, I do say the same things very often, very similarly. And I make sure that my opening and my clothes are scripted because Hey, if you don’t have a scripted closed, You’re going to talk forever, right? Yeah. Right. So you need to know that a football for me, it’s a mental cue.

[00:11:59] Once I start saying these words, we’re about to drop the mic and call it a day. Yeah. And there, and people will argue, you know, well, you know, some of the greatest speeches in, in the world have been. And I would say, yes, I agree with you, but they forget how long they work. So like when the one that come instantly Springs to my mind, the Gettysburg address is 272 words and was delivered in less than two minutes.

[00:12:26] Karin: I totally thought of the Gettysburg address. As soon as he said, like forest garden, seven years ago, 

[00:12:31] Tyler: it was written on a napkin and there are five versions of it. Yeah. And, you know, and, and Lincoln was going over and playing with word place. So he did script it so that he could have the most impact. But the thing is, is every word that he used mattered.

[00:12:47] And it was only 10 minutes. You want to do a scripted thing in two minutes? That’s fine because the audience doesn’t have time to get bored, particularly back then. We have a little less of an attention span now. So you might need to keep your scripted stuff to like 30 seconds to a minute. Right. But in between that, you need to fill that with.

[00:13:06] Your knowledge, your expertise, and be able to be comfortable just knowing what the book, if you want to memorize something, memorize your bullet points. 

[00:13:15] Karin: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. You also say, uh, and your book is based on this, you should not visualize people naked. So let’s go into that. What, what, why are we not supposed to visualize people naked?

[00:13:29] I mean, first of all, I don’t want to do that. That’s, that’s gross, but, but that’s a little bit of a controversial statement because that’s what, that’s where. You know, my fourth grader, who’s learning public speaking. They all say that. Okay, calm down. Just picture everybody in their underwear. It’s like, 

[00:13:45] Tyler: but what, and that’s the thing like this is this universal truth, and I want to know where it came from.

[00:13:51] I want to know, I, I have guessed because I, I don’t think anybody knows. I would love to sit down with the first person who said. Yeah. You’re like, oh, you want to feel good on stage, picture your audience, picture your audience in their underwear. You know? And I can only surmise that it came from trying to gain comfort out of somebody else’s.

[00:14:14] Which to me is 

[00:14:14] Karin: masochistic. Yeah. And that’s just not 

[00:14:18] Tyler: exactly to me. Your audience is sacred. Yeah. If somebody has showed up to hear what you have to say, you have a duty to deliver. Yeah. And to hold their attention as a sacred gift. Yes. It doesn’t matter who the audience is. You could be having a conversation with your spouse, they’ve come and they want to talk to you that that interaction becomes sacred.

[00:14:49] And when you know, you wouldn’t be talking well, baby, your spouse, you might be picturing naked, but that’s for later times. Right. But for your audience, first of all, it’s a waste of mental power. Yeah. Right. If we’ve already discovered that. trying to memorize a script is a waste of mental power because you need to be connected to, in order to really truly connect with your audience, you need to connect with their heart in order to connect with their heart.

[00:15:13] You need to be connected with your heart, which means you need to be grounded and centered within you. You need to be comfortable in your own skin. So you’re the majority of your prep work should be going to making sure that you know, you inside and out then, you know, your material and your material, not your.

[00:15:29] But the, be an actual expert of your thing. If you’re there to be speaking on the law, what type of law do you practice and what is this new thing that has you up there? Cause somebody asked you to be there to present. Yeah. So you are the authority of whatever, that little bit of information and that’s all you have to be the authority on.

[00:15:47] Practice of law. Yeah. Right. You just need to know this little bit. If you specialize in Realty law, speak about Realty law. You speak about divorce with speak about divorce or even sub genres of that. Like, whatever it is you want to speak on constitutional law, speak on constitutional law. Like, no, what you mean?

[00:16:06] And be comfortable in it. That’s what you need to memorize. You don’t need to memorize these individual scripts, know the journey you want to take your audience on, but by picturing them naked, how much mental power is that taking? And then how is that serving them? Because if everybody knows that they’re like, I wonder if this person is picturing me naked.

[00:16:25] Do they know that I’m wearing a good prom? Like, do they know? Like, like why, why, why wired it is? It is, it is. It is masochistic. It is a waste of brain power. It is just, and it’s disrespectful. 

[00:16:41] Karin: Like you said, if you hold your audience sacred, you’re really disrespecting them and bringing them down to this really superficial level that has nothing to do with that whole relationship between you and your audience.

[00:16:53] Tyler: And tell me the last time it actually worked. I don’t know anybody who’s. I w I am, to be honest, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen. Yeah, but I don’t know that I ever want to try. No, but even if I did, like, how does it, I want I please in the comments wherever, right? If you have used this technique and it has worked for you, I want to interview you, please reach out to 

[00:17:17] Karin: me because I feel the same way every time I’ve ever heard that you basically, whoever is doing the instructing on this idea, mentions it.

[00:17:26] And then you get a couple of giggles and then they move on. Okay, well, is that idea just because you have no other ideas about how to present and then you’ve got to giggle and so like, that’s, that’s the end of that interaction. Um, it just doesn’t make any sense. So the flip side of that, uh, point in that question and kind of leading through the things that you were talking about, where you as a lawyer present your information, you know, your details.

[00:17:52] Why then is it important, uh, to. Tell the stories of those details instead of overwhelming with all of the legal mumbo jumbo of that, of that 

[00:18:05] Tyler: information, ’cause stats tell, but stories sell and any lawyer worth their salt knows that the, that it doesn’t matter. What’s going on up in the. Like the people that you’re in, especially in a jury trial for if you’re, you know, in a, in a, just with the judge, the judge is probably going to be a little bit more analytical.

[00:18:28] So you probably gonna want to throw in a few more stats, but if you’re on a jury trial or if you’re a keynote presenter, or if you’re trying to talk to a potential client and you’re trying to get them on all the legal mumbo jumbo does. Yes. Right. Where if, if the real way to reach somebody and get them to change their mind, you don’t actually change their mind.

[00:18:51] You change their heart. 

[00:18:53] Karin: And if they walk so many lawyers get this wrong. They regularly think that their job is to present their knowledge. And we even had a comment recently on one of the shows where they said what’s with all this and I’m paraphrasing, but it was like, I don’t really buy into all this woo woo stuff about, you know, this branding and all, you know, kind of having a brand behind your firm and engaging.

[00:19:21] Some of us just went to law school to be trial lawyers. And like this guy was specifically a trial lawyer and was not connecting the dots between speaking to a jury and kind of using the emotions of their decision. So, you know, where does that all, how does that all play out? 

[00:19:41] Tyler: Well? So if. If we are speaking to an analytical audience, which we are, and if they want to see the numbers and they want to see the science behind it, I would encourage any one of your listeners, anyone right now to go and look into heart math.

[00:20:02] The math is a fascinating study done by doctors about the connection between. Brain and the heart. So the heart and the stomach actually have neurons in them. The same material that you have in your brain differences. Your brain has neurons that fire consciously, and they have neurons that fire subconsciously your hearts, neuro.

[00:20:25] Are all subconscious. There is no conscious thinking in your heart. There’s no conscious thinking in your stomach slash gut. When we talk about a gut reaction, that’s a real thing. There are neurons in your stomach going. I don’t think this is right. There’s neurons 

[00:20:41] Karin: in your heart. I chose cheese that 

[00:20:42] Tyler: did not work.

[00:20:44] Why did you do that to me again? We’ve had this conversation and your heart does the same thing. Your heart knows. When it’s in alignment with your brain. So this park math study, one of the things that they did was they took the EKG. So the electrocardiogram, and then I can’t remember what the, the brain ones are, the MRI, something eat something G whatever the brain is.

[00:21:07] Um, and they, they, when they track those, cause you’re just a series of electrical. Yeah, right. So you can track the electrical fields that are going through all electrical fields when they’re passing a current, all have a magnetic field. So that’s how, you know, a lot of these magnetic residents’ looks. And when you’re doing an MRI is looking at magnetic.

[00:21:27] Uh, so your heart and your head have sinusoidal waves, right? So they’re electrical pulses. They go through and they make a little wave. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And we all are familiar with what that looks like. Right? Well, when your heart and your head are in alignment, When you, when your heart believes what your head is saying, those sinusoidal waves line up.

[00:21:51] Yeah. Here’s the thing. When you have two magnetic fields that are in resonance and remember your brain is away from your heart. So they have two separate magnetic fields. When you have two magnetic fields that are in resonance, they expand, they grow. Now there’s an actual magnetic field, so you can have.

[00:22:11] I feel the presence if you’ve ever been. And here’s how you can, you want to tie the science to the woo if you have ever been to a concert. Yeah. Or if you’ve ever been to a live performance and for me, it’s musical, because music just touches me and you can feel. This tingles go through your spine, your heart and your head are in alignment, and you can feel the electromagnetic field within the room, right?

[00:22:40] When you can, when you feel the room is alive. Right? Right. That’s not a thing that you can describe really, but you have to feel it. And that’s what happens when you get your head and 

[00:22:50] Karin: heart in alignment. So what you’re describing is in terms of like a jury, so you’re describing there. That kind of process to where they’re listening and taking in the information and then they’re believing it.

[00:23:08] Is that, is that a correct translation? Yes. 

[00:23:11] Tyler: Okay. Yeah. So what we need to understand is that to get the head and heart into alignment, the heart has to agree with the head, not the other way around. Okay. So in order to get that to happen, you need to experience what, the information that your. In a full body way 

[00:23:29] Karin: and in an emotional way 

[00:23:31] Tyler: or heart.

[00:23:32] Exactly. You need to speak to the heart, not to the head. So if I’m trying to sway a jury, yes, man. I hope every lawyer listening here, if you’re trying to be a jury lawyer, you want to go to trial and you want to be a trial lawyer. You want to sweat your jury. You want to get the head and heart in alignment.

[00:23:49] And the way to do that is to speak to the heart. Not to the head. The stats are never going to do it, but if you make me feel an emotion. And the way to do that is through stories. Stories have the ability to write. They say, never judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Well, you want your jury to sympathize with your client, that you’re defending.

[00:24:08] You need the jury to walk a mile in their shoes and you need to tell them. You need to let the jury know what is important, why they were thinking the things that they were thinking, what were the circumstances? And don’t just detail the circumstances. It’s not, um, as, as fictional as it is an, I know it’s fictional.

[00:24:26] I want just a caveat and an asterix on this to all of our lawyer audience. I know it was fictional, but if you want to see the perfect example of what I’m talking about, the speech in a time to kill is, is a thousand percent. It. Yeah. And it’s so impactful because what does Matthew McConaughey case character do?

[00:24:46] He walks people through a jury and or through a story. He takes them on a journey. And although he’s giving detailed, like he’s, he’s telling them the details, he’s doing it in a story format. And that’s why it lands. If you were to just say such and such and such and such in this word, these were the circumstances and you know, that innocent or.

[00:25:08] Right. No, but 

[00:25:09] Karin: you know, you have to use all the adjectives, all the feeling, bringing in all the emotion and you know, it’s not unlike when we start branding affirm and we start positioning and talking about how that firm is different from, from their competition. Oftentimes when I start and I look at their websites, it’s, um, literally they’ll just list their practice areas.

[00:25:32] So. DUI attorney or a IP attorney and maybe the name of their city. And it’s like, they just are just throwing out the facts with no adjectives, no descriptors, no emotion. They’re not connecting and getting that first impression of that relationship with the visitor in any way. So instead of saying. Uh, DUI attorney, you need to kind of speak to those people who are coming to the, to the website and talk to them with, with all those descriptors that are going to let them know why they should take, take any more time on your website or with you, or, you know, all of those things for the same reason, you know, you need to be explaining all the stories and all the feeling behind whatever it is that you’re trying to present, whether it’s a trial or a presentation.

[00:26:25] Set aside, all of that, they’re usually their gut instinct is I need to just do all the case research and figure out all the details and all the facts behind all of this stuff. And that’s it. And then they, that’s where they leave it. So, um, yeah, I think that is, it’s so important and it’s probably the most common, uh, approach that I see.

[00:26:49] Tyler: Oh yeah. Facts matter if you’re doing a written. Yeah. You know, like if you’re, if you are, are doing some kind of, you know, uh, if the, the majority of the legal work, obviously you and I both know, argued me, it’s going to be passed around and, and memos and, and details and all that. And that’s fine for the written.

[00:27:10] The facts in that case matter and a more brief, I mean, there’s a, there’s a reason they’re called require brief so long. Why is a brief 72 pages? 

[00:27:21] Karin: I don’t understand it easier. I saw someone recently there, their email signature was sorry for the long email. I didn’t have time to make it shorter. And so, and that’s, that’s the case where so many lawyers, it’s like, it’s just easier to just vomit all the details out instead of trying to make it.

[00:27:39] Tyler: Yeah. And, and I get that, but I mean, if they want, if they want to go on a nice little journey with their work. Here’s them for good. Instead of you tells the story, don’t tell me the stats, let’s move my heart, not my head. And you would be surprised at just how effective you will be in any form of communication.

[00:27:58] And that goes again for those potential clients, whether that’s on the website and it’s what they’re reading, one of the best things that I can give to any professional, whether they’re a lawyer or a doctor or an accountants or any kind of professional firm. Why did you get into that practice to 

[00:28:13] Karin: begin?

[00:28:13] Yes. Yes. Yes. That is, I mean, talk about speaking to their heart like that is at the core of how they define their identity. 

[00:28:22] Tyler: Yeah. I mean, I know for me, I saw exponential growth in my business as a safety consultant grow. As soon as I said, the reason I am passionate about safety is because my father passed away when I was six years old.

[00:28:37] And it was an avoidable entirely avoidable, entirely avoidable. Yeah. Single vehicle motor vehicle accident that didn’t need to happen. Yeah. And was occupational health and safety related because he was fatigued from working 18 hour shifts for 10 days in a row, which is supposed to be illegal. And yet he was able to do it because he was self-employed and there’s nobody to, to go over that.

[00:29:04] And like, it just, you know, like these things don’t need to happen. And so for me, when I. I am personally invested because I know how devastating it can be to lose a loved one to something. So innocuous, like nobody thinks about fatigue management, right. And yet that one thing could have saved my father’s life.

[00:29:22] And it’s one of the leading contributors to motor vehicle accidents. And in fact, fatigue has been shown to be more impairing than alcohol. 

[00:29:33] Karin: Oh, I believe that for sure. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Uh, I’m sorry to hear your story. Um, but it does, you know, it comes to, once again, it comes to the heart of your work and it really, all of a sudden, you know, it brings the emotion to it.

[00:29:49] Whether people are comfortable with the emotion or not. I mean, there, there is emotion whether you want to believe it or not even, even to our most antiquated analytical of people, there’s a reason why you’re doing this work. There’s a reason why you care about these claims. And trying to dig into that.

[00:30:05] And, you know, I’ll admit I’m a very analytical person myself. So trying to kind of bring in that emotion that is always typically a more challenging piece of it for me, but it’s critical because without it, you’re just, you know, it’s just boring and nobody wants to listen to it. Um, okay. So Tyler, as you know, our audience is full of tireless lawyers who don’t have time for a book that’s not worth it.

[00:30:26] And I know you have a couple of recommendations, so let’s talk about your recommendations for books that are. 

[00:30:32] Tyler: Okay. So. Um, my favorite book of all time, because it’s a, it speaks universally, uh, as far as non-fiction goes is the compound effect by Darren Hardy. And it can be applied on so many levels, whatever you’re trying to do, whether whatever you’re trying to accomplish it, it’s such a, an eye-opening and enlightening read.

[00:30:53] And it’s an easy read. It’s not very. Um, it’s, it’s pretty easy to digest. You can run through the chapters pretty quickly. It literally incremental change. Oh, I love that. I mean, we all understand, right. If I was to tell you compound interest, you all under, you know, instantly what I’m talking about, right?

[00:31:09] One time it becomes two pennies becomes four pennies becomes eight pennies become 16, and eventually you’re making millions of dollars in the iteration. Doesn’t take long, but it’s all it starts with the incremental change. It’s just the small little things at the bank. Yeah, that can increase a, uh, you know, if you take an extra 200 steps a day.

[00:31:29] Yup. Right. Over the course of the, even a week. Yeah. You’ve taken 1400 more steps and then you start and then you start adding. Right. He’s like it, he always, one of the analogies Darren Hardy puts into it is if you’re trying to run a marathon and you’ve never run a marathon before, don’t go out to run 26 miles tomorrow.

[00:31:50] Right. Try to walk to the end of your block and see how you 

[00:31:53] Karin: feel. It’s like the old phrase, like how do you eat enough? One bite at a time. 

[00:32:00] Tyler: Yes, yes. Yes. And, and so the way that he puts it together is, um, it’s real, like I said, super easy to digest, super easy to understand. He tells a lot of stories. Oh, I love it.

[00:32:14] I’m in it. Um, show the examples. So whether you’re talking about weight loss, whether you’re talking about financial gain, uh, whether, you know, whatever is within that goal setting, uh, spectrum that you’re looking for, he has great stories to illustrate the points that he’s making. And so for a thousand reasons, I recommend.

[00:32:37] Karin: It sounds a lot. We’ll link to that book. And then I know you have another one, but it sounds a lot. It reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell. Cause there’s a part of a couple of his books that talk about that component effect and PR and not part, one of the main reasons his books are so great is because his mother is an English teacher.

[00:32:53] And he, all of his books are stories. And so they just, they stick in your brain. So not only are they compelling, but the ideas are so much stickier because of the way he tells them. Okay. So what, what other books? 

[00:33:07] Tyler: Uh, the, the next one is for anybody who’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Non-fiction is fine, but I want my fiction book.

[00:33:13] Um, my favorite book and I read this book probably once a year is called the fool’s progress by Edward. Now, if you want to take a masterclass on storytelling, the fools progresses it. So it’s semi-autobiographical um, so the character is fictional, but a lot of it is based on Edward Abbey’s own life. Okay.

[00:33:38] It is a tragic story. And one of the things why I think your audience in particular would enjoy it. And one of the things that I like about it when you start the novel. Within the second chapter, you hate the protagonist. Oh, I love that. There is nothing redeemable about this man. He is horrible by the end of the book, you are weeping for him because you understand his journey.

[00:34:11] And one of the things that I liked the most about the book is the narrative, um, converges. So it starts off. The very first chapter is the main character’s name is Henry Lee cap and he is he’s young. He’s barely six years old. And, uh, and then the second chapter is him, uh, uh, present day. Uh, I think it 

[00:34:33] Karin: kind of pops back and forth between he’s like, 

[00:34:36] Tyler: yeah, the president of past, and it is structured that exact way.

[00:34:39] You’re going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth until the last two or three chapters when everything converges. And you’re like at that point, Um, you, you love him. And I think that’s, that’s one of the big keys is, you know, sometimes good people do bad things and sometimes bad people do good things.

[00:34:58] Karin: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s so important. Especially for this audience who is working with all of those people on both sides. Um, so that sounds awesome. And also I want to, uh, mention 

[00:35:09] Tyler: your book, the power to speak naked. 

[00:35:13] Karin: Which ties into everything we’ve been talking about. So we will link to all three books on the show notes and the page, and also in all of the social media links and all that good stuff, Tyler, it was such a pleasure.

[00:35:27] Tyler Foley is the director. Total, buy-in also the author of this great book we will link to. And thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. This is a great conversation 

[00:35:37] Tyler: and it was my absolute joy to be on. And I look forward to coming on again. 

[00:35:42] Karin: Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:35:44] 

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