Before You Hire: How to Know What Your Law Firm Really Needs, with Bernadette Harris

Episode Notes

Transcript

Chad Fox [00:00:01 – 00:00:01]

Hi, I’m Chad.

Stephanie Everett [00:00:02 – 00:00:12]

And I’m Stephanie. Welcome to the Lawyerist podcast, one of the many ways we help lawyers build healthier firms, better businesses, and more sustainable lives.

Chad Fox [00:00:12 – 00:00:17]

And today, Stephanie talks with Bernadette on how to know when you’re ready to hire Chad.

Stephanie Everett [00:00:17 – 00:00:30]

This episode should be airing on July 2nd, which is close to the July 4th holiday here in the US and. And one of the things that we do around here is we shut the company down for a week and give everybody off.

Chad Fox [00:00:31 – 00:00:36]

I love it. The whole Fourth of July week. We are all unplugged, and we are out of here.

Stephanie Everett [00:00:36 – 00:01:03]

Yeah. I think this is the third year that we’ve done this, and I think a lot of people are maybe surprised. I mean, I know for me it was important because as a leader, even when I take vacations, I know we all. And I’m one, too, that preaches like, you need to be unplugged. But I’m also realistic, and it’s really hard to do. Like, if I’m away and you’re working, I feel like I should be available in case something comes up and you need me.

Chad Fox [00:01:03 – 00:01:15]

Yeah. I was on a call with one of my labsters this morning, and we were. Somehow it came up, and she goes, oh, that’s really cool that you guys do that. And that’s always their response. So. And then it’s like, well, then why don’t you do it? Just do it.

Stephanie Everett [00:01:15 – 00:01:31]

Yeah, I think that you can do it. Right. You can’t just wake up on a whim and say, let’s close the whole firm down for a week. But we have lots of labsters now who we’ve encouraged and worked with. We say, okay, let’s make a plan. What would it have. What would have to be true for you to be able to close for a week?

Bernadette Harris [00:01:31 – 00:01:31]

What.

Stephanie Everett [00:01:31 – 00:01:36]

What would you need to put in place? And then you start working to do those things.

Chad Fox [00:01:36 – 00:01:50]

Yep. Yeah. And you know, those holiday weeks, oftentimes, they tend to be slower anyway. Right. Because people have holiday plans, and so it’s. It might not be as daunting of a task as they. They might think initially.

Stephanie Everett [00:01:51 – 00:02:20]

Yeah. I mean, this year, I think we look out, and July 4th is a Saturday. But a lot of times, especially when that holiday’s in the middle of the week, I think that’s actually what also prompted this is we were like, it’s kind of a nothing week anyway. Some people take off the week the couple of days before or the couple days after. Nobody’s really doing anything. And then it actually I remember one year this did happen, and I felt like everybody was on vacation except for me. So then I felt like I was trying to cover all the things, and I was like, man, this really sucks.

Chad Fox [00:02:20 – 00:02:38]

You know, that’s funny you say that, because that happened to me the first year I was here. I started in April, and then Christmas time came around and everybody was off, and I was the only one working, and I was like, all right, well, I won’t do that again, because everybody was gone. I was like, yeah, crickets. Yeah.

Stephanie Everett [00:02:38 – 00:03:01]

So, I mean, it is good if you need to have somebody around, but do you really. Could you just message. And so that’s what we do. We message it out to our clients. We message it out to our partners way in advance. I mean, we now know, like, you know, obviously, we know next year what it’s going to be. So when we’re making client appointments, doing all the things, we can plan for it. And I think that’s the point is, like, plan for it, be intentional about it, and you can make it happen.

Chad Fox [00:03:02 – 00:03:05]

Yeah. No, I agree. I love it. I love that we do it.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:06 – 00:03:11]

Yeah. So now let’s. Let’s head into my conversation with Bernadette, all about when, you know, you’re ready to hire.

Bernadette Harris [00:03:25 – 00:03:29]

Hey, I’m Bernadette, business strategist here at Lawyerist.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:29 – 00:03:33]

Welcome back to the show, Bernadette. You know I always love talking to you.

Bernadette Harris [00:03:33 – 00:03:38]

Me, too. I think you and I have really great shows. Or maybe I’m biased.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:39 – 00:03:53]

That’s okay. You can be biased. We can. We can. We can enjoy it. And we have another fun topic that I think you and I both really love talking about today, which is all about hiring and maybe. And more importantly, when to hire.

Bernadette Harris [00:03:54 – 00:04:10]

Yeah. I think a lot of people are afraid to hire because they think that they’re going to hire the wrong person. And while that may be a possibility, I think the real problem comes when they hire at the wrong time.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:12 – 00:04:17]

Yeah, I. I hear that. So let’s talk a little bit more about that. What do you mean by wrong time?

Bernadette Harris [00:04:18 – 00:04:40]

So it’s either one of two extremes. They either hire too soon, which causes financial stress because they don’t have to work to be able to essentially pay for this person, or they hire too late, which is operational chaos, because now they’re so busy they don’t have the time to actually train and onboard this person.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:40 – 00:04:57]

Yeah. I think you and I have lots of examples of seeing both. And it’s. And it’s hard. Right. And because, I mean, you’re a Business owner, and you’re trying to figure out all the things, and now. And you feel busy, and you might be thinking, like, I’m so overwhelmed. But I.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:57 – 00:05:18]

I just did this presentation where I was like, if you hire and you and it. And that isn’t the central, like, pain point that you’re. That you should be solving, you might end up in a situation where now you just have another person, another mouth to feed, you know, more overhead and more payroll, you know, more headache. But you might still be in the same situation.

Bernadette Harris [00:05:18 – 00:05:24]

Right. Because that other problem that you avoided is still there, you know?

Stephanie Everett [00:05:24 – 00:05:24]

Yeah.

Bernadette Harris [00:05:24 – 00:06:03]

And I agree. It is really hard to figure out that sweet spot. Like, what is. What is the sweet spot in figuring out? Making sure that I don’t hire too soon, but I don’t hire too late, you know, And I think this comes down to a lot of what we do in lab, because I’ve worked with a lot of labsters on just doing capacity planning, like, figuring out what is your capacity, what is your team’s capacity, and at what point does it make sense financially and operationally to bring another person on?

Stephanie Everett [00:06:04 – 00:06:25]

Yes. I love that. I just did that with a client, and she was like. Because they said, oh, you know, should we hire two people or three? And I was like, that’s not a what? Like, that’s not a question that you should just answer in the wind. Like, I don’t know. Like, you don’t just say. You just don’t wake up one morning and say, let’s hire three people.

Chad Fox [00:06:25 – 00:06:25]

Yeah.

Bernadette Harris [00:06:25 – 00:06:28]

It’s not like two eggs or three. Right,

Stephanie Everett [00:06:29 – 00:06:39]

Exactly. Like, there’s some real data. These are big decisions, and there’s some real data and analysis that you can do to kind of figure out what you should be hiring for.

Bernadette Harris [00:06:39 – 00:07:39]

Yeah. And it’s like, I think that a lot of people are in these positions, they’re either exhausted or they’re afraid. Sometimes it’s ego, sometimes it’s panic, you know, or optimism. But it really comes down to, like, really, really figuring out this whole capacity planning piece. How much capacity are you at capacity? Because some of the lapses that I’ve worked with Stephanie, and I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but a lot of times they feel like they’re at capacity, but when we really look at the work that they’re doing, they’re not at capacity because they’re doing work that maybe a paralegal should be doing. And so when we shift those tasks to the appropriate person, they have more capacity, and they realize, oh, well, maybe I’m not ready to hire. Um, and so that’s a part of the capacity. Planning is like, it.

Bernadette Harris [00:07:39 – 00:07:44]

Are all the people in the right seats? Are all the people doing the right things?

Stephanie Everett [00:07:45 – 00:08:02]

Yes. And are you delegating? You and I taught a class yesterday on delegating because so many people are afraid to delegate or they think I. I could just do it better myself. Like, there’s all kinds of stories we tell ourselves, and there’s some ego involved in that too. Right. Like, I need to be the one

Bernadette Harris [00:08:02 – 00:08:04]

to do this because nobody’s gonna do it like me.

Stephanie Everett [00:08:05 – 00:08:11]

Right. And so we hold on to work that you. That should be delegated and should get off of our plate.

Bernadette Harris [00:08:11 – 00:08:22]

Yeah. So I think that’s a part of it too. So I know that people are probably like, get out of my business, because we’re probably telling their secrets.

Stephanie Everett [00:08:22 – 00:08:22]

Right.

Bernadette Harris [00:08:22 – 00:08:41]

But I really want to just share some things that you want to think about when you’re having this conversation. Like, how do you get to this sweet spot? How do you really know if you’re ready? And I think I’ll give you, like, three or four things, and hopefully at least one of them will land, if not all.

Stephanie Everett [00:08:42 – 00:08:43]

No, I love it. Let’s do it.

Bernadette Harris [00:08:43 – 00:09:22]

So the first thing is the work. Is the work consistent? I’m not talking about a busy month or one really big case, but do you have predictable demand? Do you have a pipeline? Like, are you at the point where you almost feel like you’re turning cases away? You know, and so when you have consistent demand that. Or consistent work, that’s a good sign that you’re in the sweet spot. Now, I’m not talking about overload, because if you wait until you’re overloaded that then we. We hit that too late part.

Stephanie Everett [00:09:22 – 00:09:23]

Right, Right.

Bernadette Harris [00:09:24 – 00:09:32]

But I think consistent demand is one of the criteria or one of the signs that you may be in your sweet spot.

Stephanie Everett [00:09:32 – 00:09:54]

I feel like a lot of lawyers rely on referrals, and they don’t really know when that next call’s coming. And so there. There’s a lot of fear there because, yeah, I hear you saying consistent demand. And they might think, well, it seems like it’s been consistent, but they’re still nervous that. That suddenly the phone’s going to stop ringing. I think so many people suffer from that.

Bernadette Harris [00:09:54 – 00:10:34]

I do, too. And I think that in those conversations, I’ve had those conversations, and in those conversations, we gotta look at what is working, what’s not working. And so that also is a whole nother conversation around operational wise like, are you completely dependent on referrals or do you have marketing that is complimenting those referrals and is the marketing working? Because if you don’t know what’s working, then you may not have a consistent, you know, work. So I think that’s a part of it too. And we don’t have a crystal ball. Like, we don’t know for sure. For sure. Right.

Bernadette Harris [00:10:34 – 00:11:10]

But I also feel like there’s some optimism that has to be a part of this decision to hire somebody. Right. You gotta kind of step out on faith and do some things. But I think it’s calculated optimism, if that’s the thing. Right. So it is. We are optimistic from the standpoint of we are hoping that things continue the way that they are, but we’re also, it’s also calculated because we are paying attention to the things that we’re doing to make the stuff happen. And we continue to do those things.

Stephanie Everett [00:11:10 – 00:11:16]

We’re going to be optimistic, we’re going to have consistent workflow. And then what’s the second thing that we’re looking forward to know if we’re

Bernadette Harris [00:11:16 – 00:11:51]

ready to hire the owner is the bottleneck. And I know we see this all the time. You’re doing work that somebody else should be doing. The revenue or services is it stops with you. And if you’re the bottleneck, a lot of times that is because you have too many things on your plate. So we gotta look at what are you doing, what are some of the things that you should be giving to someone else? Or is this stuff that needs to go to the new hire? Right. It may not be. You may not have the person on your team who can do these things.

Bernadette Harris [00:11:51 – 00:12:19]

So are these things that you would give to a new hire? And this is usually when I have these conversations with labs, this is when I have them do a time study. I need you to tell me what are you doing every day? And just kind of evaluate a normal two week period, what’s going on? What are you doing? What are the tasks? And that is illuminating because people always think they’re doing more billable work than they are.

Chad Fox [00:12:21 – 00:12:21]

Yes.

Stephanie Everett [00:12:22 – 00:12:24]

I’m like, say it again for the people in the back.

Bernadette Harris [00:12:26 – 00:12:54]

You know, like when you see the time study, when you actually start. Right. It’s almost like dieting. Right. Which is off topic. But you think that you’re eating really good until you start doing a food journal and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’ve been eating a lot of crap. And that’s exactly what happens with owners when they Recognize they’re the bottleneck and they start paying attention to the tasks that they are doing. They recognize very quickly that they’re doing things that they probably shouldn’t be doing.

Stephanie Everett [00:12:54 – 00:13:02]

Yeah, I love it. So doing a time study is like doing your food journal. Painful, but necessary and illuminating.

Bernadette Harris [00:13:03 – 00:13:30]

Yes, yes. You will see yourself in all of those things. Right. The third thing is really getting clear on this role. Because a lot of times people just want somebody to come in. I just need them to take something off my plate or I just need some help. I just need them to fix it. And you have to be really clear about what you want this new person to do.

Bernadette Harris [00:13:32 – 00:14:19]

And role clarity is something that I spend a lot of time working with them because it’s like, nope, we’re not just bringing in bodies. Nope, we’re not just hiring help. It is, you gotta be really clear, what are you taking off of your plate? How much time is this gonna give you? Cause you know, Stephanie, I’m an accountant, so we’re gonna talk about numbers too. But that’s not the sole part of it, a part of the decision. Like when they take these tasks off your plate, how much time does that give you to now do higher value tasks? Right. And so again, we’re looking at how you increase your revenue before this person starts paying for themselves, you start paying for them with the additional time that, that you get. But I think role clarity is really important.

Stephanie Everett [00:14:20 – 00:15:18]

Yes, I agree. And I read something once that I just, I loved because we, you know, obviously we talk a lot about the values and the type of person you want to hire and all of that’s included. But, but this, this article was talking about if you’re in growth mode, like, do you need architects or do you need, I don’t know, refiners? Right. Like, are you gonna, is when you bring this person in, are they gonna be starting from a lot of blank pages and you need them to create your systems and your processes or do you have a lot of systems and processes in place and you’re ready for someone to come in and help you refine em and optimize em and make em better? Because those are two, potentially two different, two different types. Types of people. Like, we have someone on our team that I love dearly. And the biggest breakthrough, and this person would say it too, that we had ever in our working relationship was when we realized she does not do well from a blank page. But if you give her something that’s created and say, make this better, she is amazing.

Stephanie Everett [00:15:18 – 00:15:46]

But if you just Say, hey, we want to start something new. Can you go figure it out and create it? It like paralyzes her. Like she really struggles with that. And I think that’s. Those are the kinds of things when we just talk about roles. We think paralegal, lawyer, and it’s more than associate. And so yeah, so I think it’s like even trying to dig in and say, okay, but what is, what’s also is going to happen in this day to day? And what kind of, what kind of frame of mind do you need based on where your business is right now?

Bernadette Harris [00:15:46 – 00:16:42]

Exactly. What are some of the soft skills? That’s, that’s another thing because a lot of the conversations that I have with labsters, they want to focus on paralegal associate, the hard stuff, the technical stuff. But what are the soft skills that this person needs? Like you said, is this going to be. Do you need them to be a person that can just see something that needs to be done and just do it or do you need them to be a person who can just follow instructions? You know, those are two different people. And you just have to be really clear. And I think that people, when you make a bad hire, it’s usually because. It’s usually you like, because you did, you weren’t clear on what it was that you needed. You know, so the role clarity is something that’s really, really important when you’re getting ready to hire.

Stephanie Everett [00:16:42 – 00:17:24]

I think too, like sometimes we tend to hire people like us. Like, you know, we’re, we’re the hero of our own story. And so I think I’m amazing and I want to hire someone just like me. Like if I meet someone and they’re like me, I’m always like, this is going to be a great team member. But with, I mean, you know, but with small firms, sometimes what you might need is the opposite of you. Like if I’m a big picture, maybe I need a detail person or if I’m a deal, you know, detail person, maybe I need someone who can do sales and see bigger picture things, whatever that is. So sometimes I even tell like my real small firms bring somebody else in to help you interview. Like maybe the skill set of, of the person you need.

Stephanie Everett [00:17:24 – 00:17:46]

So if like I, and sometimes I’ve had people have their spouses help them interview because you know, spouses are usually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes. So I’m like, you know, you don’t be afraid to be a little creative here because, and just be aware of our own biases and our bias to be like one Ourselves. Clone ourselves. Yeah.

Bernadette Harris [00:17:46 – 00:18:31]

Yeah, I like that. I like that. So my fourth thing is making sure that you have enough time to train a new person. And we talked about this when we’re talking about hiring too late. And this was one that a lot of people overlook. When you don’t get in that sweet spot and you don’t have enough time to train your person is really tough. And I think that a lot of firms don’t recognize that onboarding is not just the HR paperwork that you have to fill out and you know, getting W9s and, and copies of ID and Social Security cards and things like that. But onboarding should be a process.

Bernadette Harris [00:18:32 – 00:19:07]

And I teach lapsters to create a 90 day onboarding plan. So we need to have a 90 day plan. In this 90 day plan, what does success look like at every stage of the plan? 30 days, what do you want them to be able to do? Make it clear so they know what it is that you want them to be able to do. And then align your training so that it matches your expectations. Right. And I think that this is one of the things that helps you to have a successful hire.

Stephanie Everett [00:19:08 – 00:19:19]

And so like let’s, but let’s break it down a little bit because I mean, obviously it’s going to vary. But how much time do people need to be able to commit to onboarding and hiring and training?

Bernadette Harris [00:19:20 – 00:20:03]

90 days is a good. Because that’s kind of like a probationary period right now. Are you sitting with this person every day for 90 days? Heck no. No, that’s not what I mean. But more so deciding what is it that, what are the metrics that you will use to determine if this person is successful at the end of this 90 day period? And now you reverse engineer it into a training. This is how you’ll train them. So if this is a person that’s going to be your intake person at day 14, they need to be comfortable answering the phones and doing intakes or whatever the case may be. Like really map it out and make it realistic.

Bernadette Harris [00:20:03 – 00:20:28]

A lot of times people want you to be proficient in one week and that’s not realistic. And so with the lapsers that I’ve worked with, with training, I make them spend a lot of time here because most of the disappointment that comes with hiring is because expectations aren’t met up front. Like they don’t, they don’t know what’s expected for them up front.

Stephanie Everett [00:20:28 – 00:20:44]

Yeah, we, I feel like we just trained on that yesterday too. Right. Like a lot of people, we don’t have those expectations. And then it becomes hard to give feedback and hold standards and actually tell someone, if we didn’t tell them in the beginning, what was expected.

Bernadette Harris [00:20:45 – 00:20:45]

Yeah.

Stephanie Everett [00:20:45 – 00:20:51]

Like we, you know, hey, you didn’t read my. You know, you didn’t read my mind. And now you’re not doing what I want you to do.

Bernadette Harris [00:20:51 – 00:21:06]

So now you have to go. Yeah. So, you know, I have a story. So when I was in college, my sophomore year in college, I took a public speaking class. And this was one of my favorite classes. And I didn’t think it would be. It was just. I just needed the credits.

Bernadette Harris [00:21:06 – 00:21:43]

And I. I never really was, like, keen on public speaking, but this class changed me. And one of the things that I loved the most about this class was on the first day of class, she handed out the syllabus. And in the syllabus, there was a contract. It was a grade contract. And she said, you can decide what your grade is for this class. She said, if you want an A, you have to give 10 speeches and get at least a B on all 10 speeches. If you want to be, you got to do eight speeches.

Bernadette Harris [00:21:43 – 00:22:22]

Same thing, C, so on and so forth. Right. And so you sign a contract at the beginning of the class saying, this is the grade that I want in the class. And throughout the semester, you, you know, you did your speeches. So she would teach different types of speeches and all of that, and you sign up for. For when you want to do your speeches. And the thing that I loved about this class was I knew from day one exactly what I needed to do to be successful in this class. I wanted an A because that’s the kind of student I was.

Bernadette Harris [00:22:22 – 00:22:53]

Right. And so, yeah, and it was clear. I’ve had classes where it was so abstract, you don’t know. It depends on how the professor is feeling the day they grade your paper or whatever. But it was really, really clear. And like I said, that class changed me. And this is something that I think that law firm owners need to think about when they’re hiring. If you make it clear what you’re expecting up front, then it helps them, and it also helps you.

Stephanie Everett [00:22:53 – 00:23:28]

Yeah. And imagine saying that in a final interview. Like, imagine if you were able to say, here’s a written document, and this is what success is going to look like in 90 days and six months and a year. And, you know, here’s. Here’s how you can be an A plus employee. And by the way, here’s also what will really fail here. Right? Like, because I think we’re scared to say that we, you know, and I think from some bad, you know, some from mistakes on probably my part, we now, like, I try to be really clear with new hires and say, listen, we change stuff all the time. We think it’s innovation.

Stephanie Everett [00:23:28 – 00:23:58]

So we’re always looking for the new, the new tech tool, the new way of doing things. If we did it one way, we might come back and revise it three months later because we think there’s a better way. For some people, I have learned the hard way, they think that is chaos. They think they, like, they want to come in and they want to do the same job day in and day out and get paid for it. And that is an amazing quality to have. And that person will hate working on our team. They will hate me. They will think that I am crazy.

Stephanie Everett [00:23:58 – 00:24:28]

And it will, you know, why not have that conversation up front? Because I want that person to self select that if they hear that and they think, yeah, this is going to be terrible. Like, let’s do ourselves both a favor and not go down this path that’s going to cost us both a lot of money. Like, I want to get the people who see that success and are like, yes, bring the chaos. I love it. Like, I love change. We actually made it one of our core values, drive change. Because we were like, if people don’t like change, they will not succeed here.

Bernadette Harris [00:24:29 – 00:24:43]

This isn’t the place. Yeah, yeah. And I think those are all things that are important. Those are the things that help you really figure out if you’re ready to hire beyond. Do you have three months of salary in the bank? Because there’s more is more to it than that.

Stephanie Everett [00:24:43 – 00:25:07]

I love it. Well, I think you’ve given people some really helpful information here. So if you’re thinking about hiring, thinking it’s starting to get time, you know, don’t wait. You don’t want to be. You don’t want to be late, but you do want to be ready. And I think these four things gives folks a good roadmap to figure out if they are ready. Well, with that, happy hiring everyone. And Bernadette, thanks for another great conversation.

Bernadette Harris [00:25:07 – 00:25:08]

Thank you.

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