Habba Dabba Doo!

Episode Notes

Transcript

Joe Patrice:

Time for another thrilling edition.

Kathryn Rubino:

Hey,

Joe Patrice:

That, Hey. Doesn’t really make sense now that I’ve changed around the opening.

Kathryn Rubino:

It’s just a hello.

Chris Williams:

Doesn’t really matter. It’s the theme of the intro though, so you temps or futile

Joe Patrice:

Alright, well I’m Joe Patrice from Above. the Law.

Kathryn Rubino:

Hey Joe Patrice, welcome.

Joe Patrice:

Yes, that’s Kathryn Rubino and you also heard Chris Williams. We’re all from Above the Law. This is Thinking Like A Lawyer. Our weekly show where we discuss the

Kathryn Rubino:

Week That was

Joe Patrice:

Okay. See now you don’t need it. That

Chris Williams:

That was on beat.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, no, it was somebody calling to be like, please don’t do this anymore. Please stop this show.

Kathryn Rubino:

It was My mom. Okay,

Chris Williams:

Okay. I had that happen to me the first time I did stand up, I was on stage in front of a crowd in Philly after it was really like an open mic, so there are a lot of rappers. I was immediately after a guy named Bullets with a Z. It was my crowd, not my crowd. I’m wearing jeans, a t-shirt and some Cole Han sneakers. I get a call from my mom on the stage. I’m like, yep, this is not a bit people. She just does this. Had a good set. Didn’t get jumped. It was a good time.

Joe Patrice:

I was going

Kathryn Rubino:

To say, to be clear, this is the third phone call for my mom this morning.

Joe Patrice:

Open mic night in Philadelphia. Sounds like the worst thing that you could possibly ever do here. Hold on. Let’s just quickly

Kathryn Rubino:

Small talk.

Joe Patrice:

Begin our small talk session. On that note, do you remember a few years ago when there was that heartwarming tale of some robot that was hitchhiking across the country and it making it all the way across Canada, got into the US and got to Philly and was immediately dismantled for parts?

Chris Williams:

Yes, because brotherly love is violent. It’s just one of the things I

Kathryn Rubino:

Do. Cindy that threw batteries at Santa Claus, right?

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s true. Batterie at Santa Claus

Chris Williams:

Had it coming. All the Coleys giving out in this ecological crisis. Come on,

Kathryn Rubino:

Update

Chris Williams:

And now hate a bad children. But no, it’s actually one of the things I do when I meet a person and they’re like a Philadelphia local. I’m like, fuck the Liberty Bell. Here are the things you need to know about living in Philly. They won the Super Bowl and they destroyed their city out of joy. I tell ’em about the traveling robot and I tell them that there was the, they usually hear about Joe’s. It’s like Ginos or Pats or something.

Joe Patrice:

Oh, right, right, right.

Chris Williams:

I tell them that one of them had kill a Fry Mia thing on the bottom of their sign. They wanted, I think it was a Mia Jabal, something like that. They wanted him to get the death penalty and I was like, that was under a sandwich spot. There was no need for that to get political, but if you understand these things, Philly starts to make sense. If you get that, you’re like, yeah, they wouldn’t murder a robot.

Joe Patrice:

My take on Philly has always been that everyone talks about Pats and Gino’s and neither of them are even, neither of them are good in the top 10 of cheese steaks I’ve had in Philadelphia.

Kathryn Rubino:

They’re not bad.

Joe Patrice:

Look, they’re not going to have a bad cheese

Kathryn Rubino:

Steak. My sister went to college in Philadelphia and was very much a Pat’s person, so I feel a little bit of loyalty that I need to stand up for it, even though it wasn’t me.

Chris Williams:

Stand up all you want, but I will say I feel like going to Philly just to get a Phil Cheese steak from Pat Gino’s is like going to Chicago getting a deep dish from Uno.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is. No, I

Kathryn Rubino:

Except not franchised. Like

Joe Patrice:

Ellie and I did some events in Philly over the years, back in the day when we did lots of events as part of Above, the Law and yeah, we frequented the Off the Beaten Path Cheese Steak places and they were all fantastically better

Kathryn Rubino:

Anyway. Fair enough. Well, okay, it’s small talk and I have something to say.

Joe Patrice:

Oh, no, no, I

Chris Williams:

Was going to say it, but I decided to not steal your thunder. Go on.

Kathryn Rubino:

There’s a new album coming out that was worth it. That’s actually how I felt last night during the Grammys when Taylor Swift announced her 11th studio album, the Tortured Poets Department. Department.

Joe Patrice:

God, I hate that. I had to come in there.

Kathryn Rubino:

Well, okay. There’s a lot of people online that have done it as club because of Dead or Society because of Dead Poets Society, but also because the whole thing is we think is a reference to Joe Alwin. Her ex-boyfriend publicly had a group chat that was called the Tortured Men’s Club, so we think that this is a reference to that. He must have called her a tortured poet or something like that. I don’t know. It’s all very, very, but I’m interested. I can’t wait all of the things, so don’t expect to see me online on the 19th. I’m going to be busy.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, I mean I only know this. I was of course following minute by minute to find out what was going on with the killer Mike one three Grammys and then was carted off by the police, which was apparently it was an altercation outside. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:

I dunno. Yeah, true. That was a whole thing. But also Taylor Swift also won her fourth album of the year. Grammy the first person in the history of ever to do that, but I wasn’t even watching, but I have good friends and they all let me know. The second it happened, my phone just started blowing up with texts, so it was pretty fun.

Joe Patrice:

Killer Mike, of course, my favorite Frisky Dingo character. He was for anybody who remembers that adult swim

Kathryn Rubino:

Show.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, I loved that show. It was the bridge between C Lab 2021 and Archer for that crew, and then they had a show about an alien trying to take over the world and Killer Mike was a character on that

Kathryn Rubino:

Show. It wasn’t like Killer Mike was a character. It was like he voiced a

Joe Patrice:

Character. He played one of the characters.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah, which is different than somebody fair

Joe Patrice:

Making a

Chris Williams:

Caricature fair. Was he a dolphin?

Joe Patrice:

No, he played a music artist who was running as running for the vice presidency.

Chris Williams:

I was like, if it was one of those BoJack Horseman things, where do you play a character? I like they had to make him a whale because Killer Mike is Killer Whale.

Kathryn Rubino:

Amazing. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:

Well, okay, have we sufficiently,

Chris Williams:

Oh, before we end

Joe Patrice:

Small

Chris Williams:

Talk, I just want everybody to know the lunacy that this man engages in that he takes his normalcy. Joe tends to run with only four tabs open on the laptop, four tabs. One,

Kathryn Rubino:

Two, let me count mine. 21.

Joe Patrice:

Wow. I currently have eight, but that’s, I’m in the middle of a story.

Chris Williams:

I have 11 windows open.

Kathryn Rubino:

I was going to say I have 21

Chris Williams:

Amount of tabs in those.

Kathryn Rubino:

Oh my God. I have 21 in my main window and I have two other windows.

Joe Patrice:

I have the research that is necessary for the article open as tabs, but of course once that article is finished and in the can, I will close all those and then be back to the main, no,

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s not how

Chris Williams:

People work. No, it’s not. That works. I just reminds me of the one time I remember I just had my phone open or something. Somebody saw the amount of emails. They were like, oh, I have so many emails, and they found me, show me they had a hundred open emails, and once my email has hit past the 36,000 mark, they just started shivering. But

Joe Patrice:

My inbox currently has one new email.

Chris Williams:

I will

Joe Patrice:

Dispense with that

Kathryn Rubino:

Soon. You don’t want to know how many I have.

Chris Williams:

Oh, it’s probably normal, Kathryn.

Kathryn Rubino:

Okay, so on my phone, because the way I have my actual tab set up, it doesn’t actually reflect everything, but on my phone I have 290,946 unread emails.

Chris Williams:

I feel better. I only have 77,000 124.

Joe Patrice:

It’s

Kathryn Rubino:

All spam that I just refuse to open or deal with.

Joe Patrice:

Right. Well, I dispense with that then, wait, but spam, so I never get

Kathryn Rubino:

It, but my Gmail automatically gets sorted on my tabs between primary promotion, social updated, et cetera, and I only look at the primary.

Joe Patrice:

So two things. One,

Kathryn Rubino:

My primary has seven

Joe Patrice:

Emails. One, I now have zero because I took this time to clear that out. Two, I don’t trust the spam filter anymore on Gmail. I feel like multiple times I have looked and seen people said like, oh, I sent you this thing, whatever, and it’s been just weirdly in spam. I sometimes am having a back and forth with a group of people that has gone multiple iterations and then the third person to reply in the chain, the whole chain then moves to spam and I’m like,

Kathryn Rubino:

Well, you’re not the only one who’s had this problem very famously. Yes. No,

Joe Patrice:

I, what’s the segue I was going to do? Yeah,

Kathryn Rubino:

I mean this is a little bit legal tech related, so we’re going to pretend for a minute, but it’s

Joe Patrice:

Legal and it involves tech, so

Kathryn Rubino:

We’re going to count it friends. But yes, the F1 rejected the andrettis bid to be the 11th constructor in F1 Formula one, and part of it was that they didn’t show up for a meeting because the invite to the meeting went to spam.

Joe Patrice:

The person holding the meeting did not send it. They had their assistant send it. The assistant seemed like a apparently was taken by the spam filter as a sketchy address, and therefore it went into a spam filter. So they didn’t show up to the meeting, and that’s why their billions of dollars worth of bid was not well, but over the life of the contract would’ve

Kathryn Rubino:

Hit the billions at some point.

Joe Patrice:

Didn’t make it. That is

Kathryn Rubino:

Why old also kind of BS that they rejected the Andretti bid regardless. Like, oh, they won’t be competitive. I was like, Haass is right there. What are you talking about?

Joe Patrice:

Well, I mean, I understand it more literally

Kathryn Rubino:

The director of Haass was like, we will be last this year

Joe Patrice:

Of as they will every year. I think the argument that they won’t be competitive is stupid. The argument that the crowd, it gets too crowded with 22 cars is I do think there’s something to that. 20 is a decent number to have on there to minimize traffic concerns, especially with some of those, if you’re going to continue being at Monaco,

Kathryn Rubino:

Well sure, I think that’s probably fair at Monaco, but things they could do, what they used to do was when during qualifying, the last X number of teams just don’t get to compete the next day. And I think that that’s a fair option and still increase the excitement to have an andretti team on the grid. Yeah,

Joe Patrice:

No, I think

Kathryn Rubino:

It because that they would necessarily always be the ones that were eliminated. I think there were weekends at certain HOS cards. I think that frankly, I mean I love trade, but he was at the back of the grid for a good chunk of last year.

Joe Patrice:

No, that’s true. That’s true. I mean, those cards weren’t great. Well, he may have a new one. We’ll

Kathryn Rubino:

See. Yeah, we’ll see.

Joe Patrice:

Anyway, that is neither here nor there. Spam filters, they’re weird. Keep on top of those. Can we get to work talk? Yeah. I almost feel like spam filters. I need a new AI that goes through my spam filter to determine whether spam filter was wrong. I need a secondary check. Alright, well that’ll be like an air eye. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I’m sorry you got that in just under the buzzer, but that is the end of small talk. Hey, let’s talk about not small talk. I was gone a lot of last week covering legal week, which we’ll talk about in a bit, but because I was gone, I didn’t really follow what was going on, so I looked at our traffic numbers from week and it’s nice to be back here at a TL Alina, the law. What happened? Every story,

Kathryn Rubino:

Well, it was a week. It was a week. We

Joe Patrice:

Devoted a couple of whole episodes to this woman and thinking, well, she was hugely in the news this week, so we have to do it. And then this week was even worse.

Chris Williams:

People love looking at car crashes.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah.

Chris Williams:

This is rubbernecking traffic.

Kathryn Rubino:

I think that that’s very true. People like to watch bad things happen. I think that the size of the verdict against Donald Trump was an impressive number. I think that people want to talk about it. I think that her poor lawyering was a big part of it.

Joe Patrice:

The biggest story of last week was she made a bid real quick to, and we kind of highlighted this I believe at the end of part of last show, that she had made a somewhat curious bid that Judge Kaplan and Ravi Kaplan had both worked at Paul Weiss. So seems like bias. Multiple trials after two trials have already happened. They dawns on them that this has happened. So that motion, we joked about how stupid that motion was. Robbie Kaplan did not think that was a dumb joke, but more a sanctionable one and wrote back saying that this was something that they might pursue some repercussions over. Alina rapidly wrote a letter withdrawing that and saying like, oh, some people were saying blah, blah, blah. So that was the biggest thing, the kind of panic that seemed to hit as soon as somebody brought up the concept of actual sanctions. And it made me think that a good deal of, we’ve made fun of a lot of the incompetent lawyering going on that side, but the questionably ethical lawyering that’s going on over there is another mean.

Kathryn Rubino:

Those things go hand in hand in a lot of ways. If you’re just taking your cues from your client who is not a lawyer, even if they are, there’s a high chance you’re running into all sort of problematic behavior.

Joe Patrice:

I still maintain that email exchange that led up to what was going on in the civil fraud trial as far as whether or not Trump was going to testify that email exchange. I still want, I think there are AI detectors of authorship. I want them to go through and identify. I am fairly sure you can see the moment that Chris Kai stops writing and he starts cutting and pasting Trump’s words in, and I’ll bet an AI could identify that, but I digress. Yeah, so that was one aspect. Yeah, go on. I

Kathryn Rubino:

Mean, Robbie Kaplan was big Matt about it though, not the only thing she was big mad about this week.

Joe Patrice:

Well, I was actually going to segue to that one by going through an intermediary story that we heard, which was Kaplan explained that in an episode of actually competent lawyering, Alina apparently ordered lunch to be served at a deposition at Mar-a-Lago, which is not necessary, but is

Kathryn Rubino:

What one does.

Joe Patrice:

It is common civility.

Kathryn Rubino:

Litigation, particularly in the instance, which I think leads up to the whole issue, is that when you’re at Mar-a-Lago, it’s not like you can just go to the McDonald’s across the street. Right. It has to be like, it’s a very long way to get to anything that isn’t part of Mar-a-Lago. Right. So if you’re willing to be deposed there, and that’s where you suggest part of, I think otherwise there’ll be an objection to that as the location is you provide lunch. That seems very, very standard.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, it is very standard. I’ve done it too in really acrimonious Litigation. You still do it, people,

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. I mean there’s all sorts of things like that. I once was part of a deposition and the plaintiffs in the case owned a hotel and they put us up in that hotel because we were willing to do it in their city. Okay, well we’ll pay for this. And kind of that whole back and forth is natural and part of it.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, exactly. Apparently when Kaplan made reference to the fact that they were going to be having lunch provided by the deponent, Trump lost his mind and threw papers, exhibits across the table and then started yelling at Alina, at least according to what Kaplan told the media.

Kathryn Rubino:

Well, yeah. So she appeared on George Conway’s podcast and that wasn’t the only out of pocket story that came, there we go, here we go. It’s all going to circle back. But also what Ravi Kaplan revealed was that during that same deposition that Trump referred to her as a See You Next Tuesday, which most people I think at this point probably are aware what that means.

Joe Patrice:

Where’d you hear that first? For me, it was that show American dad. A hundred

Kathryn Rubino:

Percent. Roger.

Joe Patrice:

Hundred percent, yes. Roger. Roger the

Kathryn Rubino:

Aliens. She’s a real CNX Tuesday. Yeah. Yes. Which obviously is a euphemism for cunt and

Joe Patrice:

Earning that explicit tag. Well done.

Kathryn Rubino:

Then just be the facts. I agree. Yes, agree. Then just be the facts. Agree.

Joe Patrice:

I’m not criticizing,

Kathryn Rubino:

But apparently the way it happened was Trump was like about to say something. Their lawyers were like, this is off the record. This is off the record. So obviously they knew something was up at least that was Kaplan’s perception of what happened. And he was like, I’ll see you next Tuesday or whatever, and she was kind of confused. She was like, the next deposition’s on a Wednesday, very confused and her associates had to tell her after they left that it was a euphemism for cunt and she was like, well, it’s a good thing. I didn’t know. I would’ve been big mad. And the thing that gets me about that is my take is sure, he’s a 12-year-old boy. He speaks in euphemisms, whatever, but you’re also used to be the leader of the free freaking world. If you want to call someone a cunt, call them a cunt. Say what you say. It doesn’t make it less misogynistic just because you use a euphemism. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Have the fucking balls to defend it in the moment. Otherwise you’re just being childish, which is not surprising, I suppose, given who we’re talking about.

Chris Williams:

Yeah, I was going to say something similar coming from the guy who was just bragging about how he would just assault women. He was rich. It seems like him using a euphemism. Is he going to therapy or something? Is he trying threatened about killing people in the street and his people will still vote for him? This is an improvement. He’s getting better.

Kathryn Rubino:

No, it’s because he’s always been a coward. He said that in front of an audience of his supporters, so he knew how it was going to be reacted, so he knew he was going to get a cheer line. He said the grab them by the pussy line when he was talking one-on-one to a guy when he knew he wasn’t going to get any pushback about it. But he would never say that to Robbie Kaplan’s face. He might have to defend himself in the moment because he might get pushback in that second, and he’s fundamentally a coward.

Chris Williams:

Could also be the Carroll cases hit in his pockets.

Joe Patrice:

Well, it hadn’t been yet, but this is the Carroll case. Yeah. Alright. Well,

Kathryn Rubino:

It was a different case. It was or related a different case that Robbie Kaplan was deposing him. It was not the Carroll case. It was a fraud case, but irrelevant to the point.

Joe Patrice:

McDermott will and Emory is vault’s number one law firm for associate satisfaction three years running. Why? Because they’re doing big law better. At McDermott, you define what your success looks like, they help you achieve it. Award-winning professional development program and hands-on mentorship propel you toward your goals while the industry leading wellness benefits help you feel your best. So you can do your best. Want to see how your life could be better at McDermott? Head to mw.com/ Above, the Law. All right, we’re back. This is an interesting one that I saw in no details for reasons that will become obvious, but a post on a job board was pointing out saying that from an associate saying, Hey, my firm has told us that they’re going to be firing two of the six first years on Friday. I’m a little worried. How should I handle that? My numbers are good, yada, yada. A lot of people reached out after we published this story and said, well, what firm your story doesn’t say? And I was like, yeah, I think if this person identified the firm, they’d have fired three people out of six. So there’s not a lot of anonymity when you’re dealing with a six first year class that said, okay, so layoffs we’ve talked about, I’ve always let stealth layoffs were the most cruel way you could go, but apparently

Chris Williams:

Roulette.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, the Hunger Games style. Yeah,

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s very true. It’s very many. The odds be ever in your favor.

Joe Patrice:

I don’t understand what the logic was. Look, I’m not advocating this. I want to be clear before anybody takes a second. I’m not advocating this, but if you said we’re going to fire two of you at the end of the quarter, that’s one thing. There’s an opportunity for people to fight for their jobs, which I think is probably a horrible way to manage, but at least there’s logic. What are they going to do in 24 hours to solidify their job prospect? At that point, you’ve clearly have already decided who you’re firing.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. Yes. I think that’s true. I mean, all it does I think is it’s terrible practice. There’s no way any HR was actually involved in that. Right. HR is all about trying to minimize the antagonism inherent in these situations. You tell people on a Friday,

Joe Patrice:

Well, they were going to tell ’em on a Friday. Sure. As it turned

Kathryn Rubino:

Out, the point is so that they don’t have time to do all sorts of questionable things that you might hear when you’re hearing bad news.

Joe Patrice:

Well, and there’s also that, but yeah, I wasn’t even getting to that level.

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s the other thing I could think is what are you trying to do? Give them time to arm themselves? What is happening?

Joe Patrice:

I just don’t understand. It’s a horrible way to treat people in the first place, and I hope even if the person who initially said this anonymously, hopefully they kept their job and therefore they won’t follow up. But the people who do lose their job, I hope they identify who this firm is, because I think first years, the world over need to be forearmed that this, or forewarned, I guess, which is forearmed. It’s an old phrase. Anyway, they need to be warned that this place exists. This is a toxic environment that would pre announce layoffs are layoffs, but pre announcing. I plan to lay a couple of you off. We’ll get back to news at 11.

Chris Williams:

It’s like that moment in Shrek where far across some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

Joe Patrice:

See, I think of that as like, yeah, yeah, it’s evil to manage your firm that way,

Chris Williams:

And the hope is that it’s just one firm doing this. What if you find out it’s a trend that’s actually been happening across other places, but this is the only one that reached out.

Kathryn Rubino:

I can’t imagine. It’s so bad. It is the opposite of what anybody would ever do. It’s like anti instinctual, right? It’s like whatever your instinct is, do the opposite is what this is.

Joe Patrice:

Several years ago I wrote an article that got in trouble because there was some conflict over it, but about a firm that was hiring people and calling them interns and not paying them, basically not paying a swath of associates. That’s not great. It was like during harder economic times, and they could get away with that. And obviously there are actually Department of Labor laws regulations about what you can and can’t call an unpaid internship, and this crosses this line. That said, there was some disputed language in the definitions that this firm got very angry and said, no, lawyers don’t count. And at the time I called a number of law professors to read over these regulations and I was like, how do you read this? And they were conflicting views on what this said, but there’s a colorable argument that lawyers don’t count, and the argument was, well, lawyers are professionals and it says professional licensees don’t count. And I’m like, well, that’s assuming that there’s self-employed people. This by definition is not that. That’s not how this, oh, yeah. It was real bad. But that I thought also fits into this. There’s this mentality of how to exploit the young lawyer.

Kathryn Rubino:

There’s definitely a lot of exploitation happening,

Joe Patrice:

But yeah, ultimately I decided that the firm probably was on better ground. Even though these regulations seem to say that lawyers, you can’t do this to lawyers. There was this other definition that of professional licensee that I can’t imagine they wouldn’t have been able to win a fight over that and said like, well, we had a reasonable expectation. This means we can just not pay associates. Really interesting. Well, horrible stuff. Let us know, obviously all the time, send it to tips that Above the Law. If you are aware of any horrible situations like this,

Kathryn Rubino:

We will keep you fully anonymous as this conversation has proven. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:

All right. We’re back. We don’t have a ton of time, so as I said, I was at legal week discussing all things law and technology, and while we were there, there was a story that came up in the real world that you all covered here.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. Second Circuit referred an attorney for disciplinary action because they used chat GPT to do some legal research and it hallucinated fake citations.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, so we’re still doing this. We’re still making these, I

Kathryn Rubino:

Mean, in this attorney’s defense, I mean, this is when it’s gone through the disciplinary process, who knows how long ago they’d actually written the brief, et cetera, et cetera. It doesn’t happen overnight or anything like that. Hopefully it was before this became a regular talking point about legal tech, but I think it’s interesting. One of the arguments in the briefing was that, well, there’s no specific rule about there should be some rule about chat GPT and how lawyers should use it, and the second circuit was like, maybe, maybe. But it seems to us that the bare minimum is that you should read the cases you cite and you can’t read a case that’s fake.

Chris Williams:

Also, just for the record, I think hallucination is such a good PR spin rather than being fabrication or just made shit up.

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s a good point actually.

Chris Williams:

It just baked in the oopsy daisy nature of it rather than just, oh, you fucked up. The error is human here.

Kathryn Rubino:

I love that. I think that’s a great point actually. Why do we call it hallucination as opposed to

Joe Patrice:

Application?

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s a great point.

Chris Williams:

Fabrication.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. Maybe we should start a new trend, just calling it fabrications

Chris Williams:

AI fabrication.

Joe Patrice:

Well, hold on. That’s why

Chris Williams:

We do

Joe Patrice:

Tape. I’m trying to see the date. I’m reading through the whole thing to figure out what day it was. I mean, it couldn’t have been too, too early. Right? Because had GPT, it’s not even that old. Why?

Kathryn Rubino:

Well, what I meant when I said early, I meant before it became very public that lawyers were getting in trouble for using check GPT in their briefing. It took a minute before it became clear that lawyers were looking for shortcuts and not bothering to double check the work that chat GPT was spitting at. Well,

Joe Patrice:

That’s the point that I always make is that it’s not a tech problem here because if you,

Kathryn Rubino:

That’s literally what the second circuit said, right? That the bare minimum is that you should read the cases that you cite in briefing and you can’t read a faked case.

Joe Patrice:

Well, now the dangerous thing you could do if you’re really incompetent with the tech, which is this is what allegedly happened in the first of these cases that we had with all the airline stuff, is that they went back and said to chat GPT, somebody told us this was fake. What do you have the text of this opinion? And Chad g DE’s like, sure. And then made that up too, and then they submitted the fake bit and was like, well, here it is.

Kathryn Rubino:

One would certainly hope that lawyers at this point have some access to publicly available

Joe Patrice:

State bars. Mostly have access to things like Fast Case or something like that is available through most state

Kathryn Rubino:

Parties if you don’t already have a Lexus or Westlaw or something kind of thing. I mean, the Second Circuit was not hearing that nonsense that

Joe Patrice:

Did you look at what the underlying dispute was in this case?

Kathryn Rubino:

I did. It was somebody who was trying, the case was dismissed but was trying to sue a doctor over a failed abortion.

Joe Patrice:

Your Honor, I’d like to present Exhibit A, this three-year-old child.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. Cold. But yes.

Joe Patrice:

Okay. I saw that too, that that was what it was about. I was like, I don’t know, as though I’ve heard that one before. Maybe that’s why it was dismissed. Yeah.

Chris Williams:

This is one of those weird cases where you realize you’re living in a soft dystopia or a hypothetical situation because this is just a combination of the typewriter monkeys and the Turing test. If we had a computer compile a thing, how long would it take until it’s an actual thing.

Joe Patrice:

Alright, well, let’s close. So thanks for listening. You should subscribe to the show, get new episodes when they come out. You should leave reviews, write things on the various services, give stars, all that sort of stuff. Helps more people find the show. You should listen to the Jabot Kathryn’s other show podcast. You should listen to the Legal Tech Week Journalist Round Table, which I’m a guest on, which where we talk about a lot more of these sorts of issues. You should be listening to the other offerings of the Legal Talk Network. You should read Above the Law, obviously, to read these and more stories before they hit our conversation. You should follow us on social media. It’s at ATL blog. I’m at Joseph Patrice, she’s at Kathryn one, the numeral one. Chris is at writes for rent as in typing writes, not legal rights. All of that is at X Twitter, as we call it. And then over at Blue Sky, everything’s the same except I’m Joe Patrice. And with that, we’re done. Bye. Peace.

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