No More Room In This World For Two Ampersands

Episode Notes

Transcript

[Music]

Joe Patrice: It’s another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer.

Kathryn Rubino: Hey.

Joe Patrice: I’m Joe Patrice. That’s Kathryn Rubino.

Kathryn Rubino: It is.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Chris Williams is yet to say anything, but he’s here too.

Chris Williams: I like to have manners from time to time.

Kathryn Rubino: Wow. That feels like a dig.

Joe Patrice: I mean, look, I thought that was our most successful opening ever.

Kathryn Rubino: Ever?

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Really? Because I waited to interrupt you?

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: It’s because you started differently. You like deliberately didn’t say “Hey”, which is usually my cue to speak up.

Joe Patrice: I know. Yes, I tried to do something that would allow us to begin as though we kind of had a vague sense of professionalism, yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Wow. The below the belt. I think it’s a certain charm that we constantly interrupt one another for the opening.

Joe Patrice: Certain, it’s carrying a lot of weight in there.

Kathryn Rubino: I think it bears it out.

Joe Patrice: All right, well, hey, this is Thinking Like a Lawyer, where those of us Above the Law staffers here talk about the week that was in legal news. To give you kind of a short and sweet if you aren’t reading every single story, which you still should. At Above the Law, you can get a quick little recap of what’s going on by chatting with us for a little bit of time, so yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, here we are. But before we get into the legal news —

[Music]

See, there goes your professionalism argument, Joe.

Joe Patrice: I don’t control that. That just comes across. Whatever, it’s the beginning of our —

Kathryn Rubino: Small Talk.

Joe Patrice: Small Talk section. Hey, what’s going on with everybody? It was very unseasonably warm here in New York over the weekend, and then it became cold again.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I mean, that’s not the most important news of the weekend.

Joe Patrice: I don’t think it is.

Kathryn Rubino: I have the most the obvious, most important story.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: That is non-legal, of course.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: It is, that 1989 Taylor’s version —

Joe Patrice: Oh, for God’s sake.

Kathryn Rubino: — was released on Friday. I spent most of the weekend listening to the updated set list as well as the new vault tracks, which hot take alert. I think that 1989 vault tracks are by far the best set of vault tracks that we’ve gotten from any TV rerelease.

Joe Patrice: Wow.

Kathryn Rubino: Now that we don’t talk real banger, really kind of get you where you lives. Yeah, I’m going to go there. Yeah, this is all going to happen. Suburban Legends. Really great little tune. Yeah, I really slut. That’s another great song. I think that overall these vault tracks are real bangers.

Joe Patrice: Okay, that’s super.

Chris Williams: Is this the last version we have to worry about?

Kathryn Rubino: No, there are two more. She’s rereleased four of her stolen tracks. She still has —

Joe Patrice: That was rhetorical, we did not need it.

Kathryn Rubino: It wasn’t at all rhetorical.

Joe Patrice: It was clearly a debut.

Chris Williams: No, it really wasn’t. At this point, I’m expecting enter the 36th chambers Taylor’s version. We didn’t retain album for those who aren’t.

Kathryn Rubino: Yes, I’m from Staten Island, I’m aware. But we still have debut and reputation lap. The two that she has left a claim are her name and her reputation. It’s all done for a purpose. And there’s tons of speculation that I think is probably accurate that Taylor Swift 11, her 11th studio album, is probably in the process of being recorded as we speak. So there’s also that to look forward to within the course of the next year or so, is my guess. See, we went through an entire segment about Taylor Swift and did not mention Travis Kelce.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, that was great.

Chris Williams: Until just now.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Well, I had to point it out, right?

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: So what else in non-Taylor news is going on that is not also legally related? Nothing. See? Nothing.

Joe Patrice: I don’t know. This is only marching.

Chris Williams: I had a thing.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, go for it.

Craig Williams: If we’re being polite now.

Joe Patrice: Awesome.

Chris Williams: So what is it? Halloween is on the 31st?

Kathryn Rubino: Every year.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chris Williams: Yeah, this time, just to be sure. Sometimes things change up. You carry the one. Oh, anyway, there’s no need for it anymore. I already had the best costume of the year. I attended a Halloween party with a white sheet, a very large gold chain and a clock. I attended as the ghost of Flavor of Flav’s career.

Kathryn Rubino: Sure, I get that.

Chris Williams: And the very next day, he’s singing the national anthem. Did I cause it? Maybe. I’m just saying. It was very spot on. So I don’t see anybody else’s costume bringing out a once musical legend out of hiding.

Joe Patrice: I saw a thing this weekend that New York was on.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. She’s on ‘House of Villains’, which I’ve watched. I’m a big fan of Reality TV generally, as we all know.

(00:05:03)

But, yes, Tiffany ‘New York’ Pollard, who was on, I think, Season One of ‘Flavor of Love’, is one of the stars of ‘House of Villains’, which I also enjoyed the ‘I Love New York’ spinoff as well that Tiffany starred in. So it’s a big Flavor of Flav weekend.

Joe Patrice: It was one of those things like, I was scrolling and I saw New York and thought, I didn’t know that this was still a thing. Okay, well, let’s put an end to this small talk that we shall never speak of again.

Kathryn Rubino: Small Talk.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Hey. So what’s going on, news wise? I feel like the biggest thing that we should talk about, which is actually not a story from last week, but a story that — well, I guess, technically is from last week. It happened the very, very end of last week.

Kathryn Rubino: That is how weeks work though, they have a beginning, a middle end and end.

Joe Patrice: Yes, but to the extent that it’s only reported on today, which brings it into this week, but we should share. Stroock has been having trouble for a while trying to find merger partners, most recently with Pillsbury, another firm that is traditionally star-crossed. Like, we’ve seen it try to merge with various people. I can remember Oreck at least, was one way back in the day and has never managed to do it. The two of them tried to get together and those crazy kids couldn’t make it work.

Kathryn Rubino: Is law firm merger mania dead? No.

Joe Patrice: So Stroock couldn’t get it done and now may not ever get things done. What we’ve learned over the weekend is that Hogan Lovells is going to be snagging about half the partnership in a string of individual laterals. This has happened before. This is kind of how Bingham died.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Listen, partner run. That’s how fundamentally, when big law firms die, it’s because of partner runs when all of a sudden there are no partners left to kind of carry the business. That’s what happened with LeClairRyan. That’s what happened with Dewey. Not Dewey & LeBoeuf. Fundamentally, when the partner runs happen.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, but this is a little different than a partner run because it’s not just that a bunch of partners decided it was time to bail, which LeCairRyan, for instance, everyone bailed to various different places, and that’s the usual way this happens. This is much more like that. It was Bingham, right? I’m not making that up. Bingham death, where one firm has decided to take a massive — a critical mass, that is actually the correct use of that term, a critical mass of the partnership of another firm. Basically, getting all the business from that firm without taking —

Kathryn Rubino: With none of the liabilities.

Joe Patrice: Any of the liabilities.

Kathryn Rubino: I mean, really, you got to give it up to HoLove there, right? Like that’s quite the coup.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, and this is something that — or remember, Hogan Lovells had been in the market earlier in the year. They had been talking to Shearman about getting in on that, which didn’t happen ultimately

Kathryn Rubino: But AO eventually.

Joe Patrice: Ultimately, Allen & Overy looks like they’re going to get there.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I think that was approved by the partnership.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: So that one will probably happen, but yeah. No, it is wild sort of the Stroock story. I think it’ll be very interesting to see what happens to those remaining partners. You said about half of the partnership will soon call themselves HoLove partners?

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s around that amount. It’s somewhere over 30. I now looked it up to just verify. This was back in 2014 when Morgan Lewis hired 226 Bingham partners in a fell swoop, out of the 300 that there had been.

Chris Williams: 226?

Joe Patrice: Yeah. So they took basically all the business from Bingham and then Bingham collapsed soon afterwards.

Chris Williams: That’ll do it. He took a farm worth of a farm.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s basically a merger where you don’t take on any of the liabilities, which obviously sucks the most for staff members who are the folks who tend to get left behind in that situation with no recourse. But here, look, so we knew Hogan Lovells was in the mood to add people, that’s why they were talking to Shearman. Obviously, there were barriers with Shearman that a lot of other firms had also seen, which is why they had been on the market for as long as they had been. Hogan Lovells decided ultimately that that was not a move that they found a prudent, but here they managed to get folks. That’s the other thing with individual hiring people individually rather than taking on the whole business is sometimes when you take on the whole business and this is speculatively what is the problem with firms like Stroock and Pillsbury when they tried to go on the market as mergers, they have partnership agreements —

(00:10:00)

— that carry with them pensions and —

Kathryn Rubino: Liability.

Joe Patrice: — ongoing payments, and all of that gets renegotiated when you’re an individual lateral. You don’t have to take on the obligations to fund health insurance plans for retired partners and stuff like that, like you would if you were to merge.

Kathryn Rubino: It is interesting to kind of the notion of collapsed law firms in general, especially because this week, also a paper came out about what happened to the Dewey & LeBoeuf folks. Andrew Granado wrote about what happened to the lawyers that were sort of left behind, not the ones that were the partner run, but the people who were left unemployed as a result of the collapse of Dewey & LeBoeuf, and found out that ultimately, over the course of the long term, there was really no negative impact to their careers. They were just as likely to have made partner at a big law firm as if they had stayed at a functional law firm, which is interesting.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, that is true. Obviously, that was the Dewey, remember the biggest collapse.

Kathryn Rubino: Yes. For people who are maybe not geriatric millennials —

Joe Patrice: Wow.

Kathryn Rubino: Geriatric millennials is the term, Joe.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: But when Dewey & LeBoeuf collapsed in 2012, Above the Law leaned hard into all of the puns of their name. Every article was, do we think that this has happened? Do we —

Joe Patrice: Oh no.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Oh no, we did, yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: We did, I mean, I was not working here, but that was certainly the Above the Law take was do we — whatever.

Joe Patrice: All right. Do we think we should take a break now?

Kathryn Rubino: Okay.

Joe Patrice: Let’s do that.

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Joe Patrice: Okay, so we’re back. Let’s talk, Kathryn, you had a story about a prank that went not great.

Kathryn Rubino: It just strikes me that maybe when you’re on an airplane is not the time to engage in pranksterism.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: It’s probably not the moment. Right?

Joe Patrice: I’m assuming this is not the pilot who tried to crash the plane. This is somebody else?

Kathryn Rubino: This is a big — well Australian firm Corrs’ now former partner Chris Allen was involved in some sort of a prank where he was on a business trip on a Virgin flight from Sydney to Tasmania and wrote some sort of a note and tried to implicate his colleague in the note writing, but then a steward or a flight attendant found the note, and whatever was on there, which we don’t have confirmation, there’s wild speculation as to what was on this note. We don’t have confirmation of what was on this note, but it alarmed the flight attendant, and when they landed, there were police waiting.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, that’s shame.

Kathryn Rubino: Police were waiting for the plane, and the attorney wound up getting away with just sort of a warning, a written warning, as opposed to any sort of charges or fines or anything like that, which is great for — so just got an infringement notice, which was great for him legally, but the firm was not thrilled with his lack of judgment, I imagine, and accepted his prompt resignation.

Joe Patrice: Well, look, airplanes take things pretty seriously.

Kathryn Rubino: 9/11 was a while ago, but it’s very much in the forefront of people who work in the airline industry’s mind. Let’s say that.

Joe Patrice: That’s why you never travel with somebody or if you travel with somebody, you always refer to them by their full name, refer to them formally, like John or something like that, because you don’t want to wave and go, “Hi Jack”.

Chris Williams: Yeah, so let’s never do that again.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, okay. That was a joke. See, that was the kind of joke that you should refrain from on an airplane —

(00:15:04)

Chris Williams: That joke bombed.

Kathryn Rubino: –as Chris Allen.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chris Williams: That joke so bomb.

Kathryn Rubino: So maybe don’t try to pull a prank on an airline if you want to keep your partnership at a law firm.

Chris Williams: Also look both ways before you cross the street.

Joe Patrice: Okay. With all of that said, that was all there was to that story.

Kathryn Rubino: Don’t leave your drink unattended at a bar. I don’t know what other news you can use.

Joe Patrice: I know. This was a story that did really well.

Kathryn Rubino: Well, because, listen —

Chris Williams: It’s so obviously dumb.

Kathryn Rubino: It’s so obviously dumb. There’s not a ton to say, but I think that this kind of — goes along with some of the stories you talked about last week, that when you’re working for a law firm, part of what you’re being hired and you’re being employed to do is exercise judgment. If you are doing something that demonstrates a severe problem or a deficiency in that department, firms aren’t going to react great to that information. Right? And I think that trying to pull a prank on an airline is one way that shows terrible judgment. I think that sending hate back — DMs to people is another way to show terrible judgment, and I think that employers are going to act accordingly.

Joe Patrice: Look, last week was rough traffic-wise. It was just a string of Trump updates and then so finding things and it’s not like we’re not willing to talk about Trump updates here, but you get that news from a lot of places. Obviously, you know how that’s all going, so we try to let you know about some of the other legal news that’s not just the former president’s multiple criminal trials happening.

Kathryn Rubino: Getting more gag orders and more violations of gag orders.

Joe Patrice: He’s been on a tear this morning just by constant attacks on judges and stuff in all caps.

Kathryn Rubino: This is going to end.

Joe Patrice: I mean, in fairness, Judge Chutkan’s order does not gag him from criticizing her.

Kathryn Rubino: Correct.

Joe Patrice: So he’s taken that opening and has been on it for several hours now.

Kathryn Rubino: That gag order is very limited and I think appropriately limited in a way to kind of withstand any First Amendment challenges, but that is the result when you have a party like Donald Trump appearing in your court.

Chris Williams: The thing that gets me are the people that act as if writing in Caps Lock makes the thing more persuasive. Like, WHY ARE YOU YELLING?

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but like my eyes almost glaze over all cap information. I’m like ah, it’s uncomfortable to read the same way like somebody yelling at a bar is uncomfortable.

Joe Patrice: Has anybody noticed it? Do we think he’s decided consciously to lean into the stolen thing, because he spells “stolen” with two Ls, and is that that he thinks that makes it is like is that stronger than regular stolen? Is it that if he uses that term like I don’t know, it’s a thing. He uses “stolen” with two Ls.

Chris Williams: Maybe he’s trying to show that he uses it’s like “stollien” like a Spanish L.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Chris Williams: I don’t know. It’s hard to make sense of this man.

Joe Patrice: Okay, well yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: It’s a loaf of bread with two Ls?

Joe Patrice: What?

Kathryn Rubino: Isn’t there like a stolen loaf of — isn’t that like a thing?

Joe Patrice: What in the world are you talking about?

Kathryn Rubino: I thought that there was like some bread that was called like a stole loaf or something.

Chris Williams: I did grow up seeing Bimbo bread, and as a kid, I never understood what was going on.

Kathryn Rubino: By the way, stolen bread with two Ls is absolutely a thing. It’s German bread. Okay, I’m not crazy.

Joe Patrice: Also, maybe he’s just talking about German Christmas bread.

Kathryn Rubino: There you go. By the way, you definitely made me feel like I had completely imagined the fact that I had seen stolen with two Ls frequently in reference to baked goods.

Joe Patrice: I didn’t know what it was. That didn’t mean that it wasn’t real. I certainly wasn’t trying to make it seem like I’m the arbiter of every bread product in the world.

Kathryn Rubino: I mean, listen —

Joe Patrice: Not arbiter, the archivist of every bread product.

Kathryn Rubino: Fair enough, but yeah, no, stolen bread is a Christmas German bread, and it’s delicious.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: Well, if you like dried fruits, like a lot of kind of Christmas treats they had tend to have dried fruits because it’s in the winter, I guess, when fresh fruits aren’t really available.

Joe Patrice: I mean, look, all that we know is that the 2020 election was Christmas fruit breaded.

Kathryn Rubino: I bet that’s part of it, though, that it is literally a word, so it doesn’t come up as like spell-checked.

Joe Patrice: Oh, maybe. Oh, I wonder.

Kathryn Rubino: So he thinks it’s right.

Joe Patrice: And now he’s leaning into it. All right, well let’s —

Kathryn Rubino: Or he just thinks that it’s right.

Chris Williams: I would not be surprised if in his private conversations, Trump is using German word with his friends.

(00:20:00)

Joe Patrice: No.

Kathryn Rubino: Oh, fair.

Chris Williams: It all comes back. It all loops back.

Kathryn Rubino: Well, some words can be with one L or two, like “canceled” can be one L or two Ls. Those are both considered correct. Maybe he thinks it’s like that.

[Music]

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Joe Patrice: Okay, so let’s finish up. Let’s talk about there’s a speaker of the house.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, no.

Joe Patrice: There’s actually a speaker of the house, which is a thing that we didn’t think was ever going to happen, but now it has. It is Mike Johnson.

Kathryn Rubino: And the sort of quickness by which Mike Johnson became a nominee and then actually speaker, I think is the only reason he became speaker because I think if there had been more time to figure out who this mystery man was, it probably would have.

Joe Patrice: There are rumblings that things may soon come up that derailed this guy. But anyway, he is now the speaker, he’s from Louisiana, he’s a big favorite with oil and gas lobbyist, he used to be the spokesperson for the giant Noah’s Ark replica that they’re building, that they built in Tennessee or whatever. That was, like, one of his things.

Kathryn Rubino: That’s a weird thing to be known for.

Joe Patrice: Anyway, he believes that the Earth is 6,000-years-old, which is a thing.

Kathryn Rubino: Well, there you go.

Joe Patrice: Anyway, but there is a legal connection and we wrote a story about this. Actually, shout out to the Baptist News Global who actually had the original story which great tipster pointed me in the direction of their coverage of this, which is that Mike Johnson actually used to be a law school dean, which you wouldn’t necessarily know because he does not put this on his résumé in any way.

Kathryn Rubino: That’s weird. It’s a pretty prestigious job. You would think that you would want people to know. Like yes, I have done this, like Elena Kagan, I have been a law school dean.

Joe Patrice: Right. So much like Elena Kagan, he’s been a law school dean. Much not like Elena Kagan. His law school didn’t ever actually succeed. It fell apart. He was named the Dean of the Judge Paul Pressler Law School at Louisiana College, or as it was called at the time, it has a new name now, Louisiana College does. The law school never really made it. A lot of reasons things like accreditation became problems. There was also the fact that it’s named after Judge Paul Pressler, a kind of big name in the conservative evangelical movement who has a number of accusers.

Kathryn Rubino: Oh.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s hard to get a law school off the ground at that point. And thus, Mike Johnson eventually moved on and just never spoke of this again.

Kathryn Rubino: Let us ever speak of this again.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. But no, this was one of his jobs. This story was actually kind of fun because I had to go in and make an update to it which we endeavor to always be correct about our stories and I had to make this update, it was a confusing update because I had called a lot of the contemporaneous coverage of this law school when it was first being put together. And I had block quotes from Mike Johnson saying, XYZ, whatever, and the original author of the Baptist News Global reached out to me to point out that some of the Mike Johnsons I had in these block quotes were different Mike Johnsons than this Mike Johnson who was the dean Mike Johnson because there were other Mike Johnsons who were on the board of trustees at the school at the time because Mike Johnsons really, really love Louisiana College apparently.

Kathryn Rubino: That is one of those kinds of things that make the fact that everyone nowadays is obsessed with the most unique baby names, really kind of like — yeah, this is why we have tragedy as a name, L-E-I-G-H.

Joe Patrice: I got some flak for not taking the story down because I put an update in where I’m like, actually, this is not the same Mike Johnson in this paragraph. And people are like, how dare you leave the story up if it’s not the same Mike Johnson? I was like no, no —

(00:25:03)

Kathryn Rubino: Some of them are.

Joe Patrice: — some of these are the same Mike Johnson. The story is about the right Mike Johnson, but this is Mike. Yeah. Apparently, I was told that the Mike Johnson who is now the speaker went by J. Michael Johnson back then and I understand why because if you’re surrounded by that many Mike Johnsons, you might want to come up with a different name.

Chris Williams: So how did you change it? You put a little asterisk by Mike Johnson or —

Joe Patrice: Like our usual function, where I put in bold, bracketed, update to explain the situation.

Kathryn Rubino: And this is why kids are now named apple.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean, look, again, this brings us full circle. That’s why when you’re traveling, you refer to John as opposed to saying, “Hi, Jack.” See, we got all the way back to the —

Kathryn Rubino: Did we, though? Is that a good thing?

Chris Williams: If you bring back a joke that bombed, is that a bomb threat?

Kathryn Rubino: Okay.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: I think we have to end now.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s for everyone’s benefit. Thanks everybody for listening. You should be subscribed to the show so you get these episodes when they come out. You should leave reviews, write stars, and write things. It always helps. You should be reading Above the Law, so you read these and other stories before we chat about them. Here you should be listening to The Jabot, which is Catherine’s other podcast. You can check out the Legal Tech. I’m a guest on the Legal Tech.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, come on. You got it. You got it there, buddy. I believe in you.

Chris Williams: You had good couple months where you were just rolling it off. This is the best callback of the show. I wish I could see his face.

Joe Patrice: We are on Zoom. You can look.

Kathryn Rubino: No, you all.

Chris Williams: You all is in the list.

Joe Patrice: Oh okay. Got it. The Legal Tech Week journalist roundtable, which I’m a panelist on. You can listen to the other shows on the Legal Talk Network. We have various social medias. The publication is @atlblog, on Twitter, X, whatever. I’m @josephpatrice, Kathryn is @kathryn1, the numeral one, Chris is @writesforrent, on Bluesky, I’m @joepatrice, Kathryn is still @kathryn1 I believe, and Chris, you are still @writesforrent or no?

Chris Williams: Still @writesforrent on Twitter and Bluesky. And one quick thing X makes the sh sound, right?

[Music]

Joe Patrice: It can.

Chris Williams: I propose instead of saying X from your last Twitter, we just call it shitter.

Joe Patrice: Oh okay, or just shh. Okay. So right. So that’s all of that. I think with all of that said, we will be done and check you out next week.

Kathryn Rubino: Peace.

Chris Williams: Peace.

[Music]

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