Just when you thought law firm salaries had settled into a nice equilibrium, Milbank announced another round of base salary hikes and the whole cycle began again. But with some notable hold-outs, the industry is left wondering if this is the last word on the matter or if another raise is on the horizon. We also talk about Elon Musk’s effort to get a law firm to fire an attorney for being mean to him when he was back pushing the envelope of SEC regulations, and a state judge who refused to get vaccinated and an unvaccinated former VP candidate who sunk her high profile trial by catching COVID.
Joe Patrice: Hello.
Kathryn Rubino: Hello.
Joe Patrice: And welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I’m Joe Patrice and Kathryn Rubino just interrupted there. Chris Williams, of course, was waiting for —
Chris Williams: This.
Joe Patrice: Being introduced before he’d say anything. There we go. So, we’re your editors from Above the Law, and we’re here to talk a little bit about the weeks’ journey in law, you know.
Kathryn Rubino: How you doing there, buddy?
Joe Patrice: Well, —
Kathryn Rubino: You know.
Joe Patrice: As we begin our small talk section with that trumpet call, you know, I’m not doing as — I’m not as cheaper as I could be.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, yeah.
Joe Patrice: I did have my battery replaced yesterday.
Kathryn Rubino: And so, you were meaning to being a robot? That’s good right now.
Joe Patrice: I am.
Kathryn Rubino: Cool.
Joe Patrice: I got my battery replaced on the old defibrillator. So, my whole left side isn’t really moving around all that well. But, you know, the good news is —
Kathryn Rubino: Nobody got COVID during surgery?
Joe Patrice: No. You know, I can type article still there, just a little slower because I can only use one hand. But to hunt and peck —
Kathryn Rubino: Jeffrey (00:01:16)?
Joe Patrice: Oh, yeah, nice.
Chris Williams: I have the thought but not the name. There we go.
Joe Patrice: Nice, nice, nice. But yeah. No, but my ability to hunt and peck doesn’t hurt my ability to, you know, —
Joe Patrice: Hit my sound effect board.
Kathryn Rubino: Wow!
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: I just thought that maybe, you know, staring mortality in the face and make you a little bit less of a dick.
Joe Patrice: Nope.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay.
Joe Patrice: Nope. If anything steals my rissole.
Chris Williams: Today’s episode brought to you by Viagra.
Joe Patrice: Not really a heart vest. Although, was that one that was — what was Viagra invented for? It was invented for something that was not its ultimate use. I do remember that. Was it a heart medicine?
Chris Williams: I think it’s a heart medicine. And then, in fact —
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Chris Williams: And I think there was a study that showed that Viagra actually reduced the pain from period cramps. But then, they were like, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Women.
Chris Williams: So.
Kathryn Rubino: What kind of market is that?
Chris Williams: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I know. I mean, LSD was a migraine medicine at first, right? So, like everybody, yeah, though. So, —
Kathryn Rubino: Well, this Duval to a pharmaceutical conversation way quicker than I hoped.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, the media. Look, it’s a —
Kathryn Rubino: Hey, Chris, how was your weekend?
Chris Williams: I’m having that brain far where like smiley says, “So, what you’re doing?” You forget everything you’ve ever done in your life. A lot of being in the house. My mom came through. She’s in the house. It’s good to see her, and we got this some cooking.
Kathryn Rubino: Yes.
Chris Williams: But yeah. I still don’t remember anything outside of that, so.
Joe Patrice: You know, sucking the mirror out of life. Yeah, I didn’t do anything, all that interesting.
Kathryn Rubino: But you got cut open.
Joe Patrice: Well, that was on Monday. So, —
Kathryn Rubino: I’m going to Canada is your thing, okay?
Joe Patrice: Yes, that’s fair. Yeah, no. I’m plugging along. Well, anyway —
Kathryn Rubino: I went shopping.
Joe Patrice: Well, good.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, online shopping but still count it. Friends and I are spending some time at the TWA Hotel at JFK.
Joe Patrice: Oh, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Which is all decked out as like a retro cool kind of local. So, I decided obviously that my wardrobe should be at least have a retro flair. Now, my number one issue is that most of the stuff that I currently have that’s like a little retro is I lean more towards like 70s retro when I really feel like 60s. It’s more like hitting it on the nose, but I’m working on it.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, I have a conference in that hotel that I attended once. It’s actually super nice.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I’m excited about it. It’s, you know, I’m from the New York area. I live here, but it’s kind of a little not quite staycation because I’m going somewhere. But, you know, I don’t have to like get on a plane or a train or not. Well, I have to take off road.
Joe Patrice: And not to plague the hotel or anything, but like if you are flying out of JFK on JetBlue, show up a little bit early and you can actually walk from the JetBlue terminal over to this hotel and their connected and it is kind of cool to see like an old retro 60s airport feel.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. It’s pretty cool. I’m excited about it. They say that Omicron is where on the tail half of it, at least, I think.
Joe Patrice: That airplane joke.
Kathryn Rubino: No, but maybe.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, sure. Yes, it was.
Joe Patrice: (00:04:34)
Kathryn Rubino: No.
Joe Patrice: No, you don’t do that you do.
Chris Williams: No, I’m going to do it.
Joe Patrice: All right, go ahead.
Kathryn Rubino: Deep sigh.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Chris Williams: You know what? No glass, no masks. Next episode I’m bringing my own sound effect machine. I’m going crazy.
Joe Patrice: Oh, there we go.
Kathryn Rubino: It would be like doubling sound effects episode. Amazing. You all can just handle that on your own.
Joe Patrice: All right.
I think that wraps it up for our session of small talk. Why are you wincing there?
Kathryn Rubino: I feel like I know —
Okay. You’re such an asshole.
Joe Patrice: So, let’s do —
Chris Williams: Do it with a lot of heart.
Joe Patrice: Let’s talk about the big talk.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, see. Now, that was a good reference.
Joe Patrice: Let’s talk about the big story of the week which is —
Kathryn Rubino: Nothing big happen to big log this — oh, dear.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, so Milbank announced that they would be increasing associate’s salaries. This bucks bit of conventional wisdom that seemed to be settling over the industry that what was going to happen is that associate salaries themselves would stay the same and then to the extent that there was a battle for lateral talent, it would take effect in the form of more special bonuses.
Kathryn Rubino: Bonus.
Joe Patrice: Or one-off bonus here, whatever, just to avoid locking the industry into a new salary scale. But Milbank has really, really itself, even though oftentimes other firms come in and then raised the salary after them, Milbank is the firm that now three straight times has set the bar of we’re going to increase associate salaries, people.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, I think that that’s awesome.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Good for them. I think —
Joe Patrice: And I don’t think it — sorry, I was just going to say just going to finish that with and even though other firms and, you know, in some of those cases have come over the top of them towards the end, I don’t it detracts from Milbank’s role as a leader in this because I don’t think these firms would have given anybody anything if Milbank hadn’t moved.
Kathryn Rubino: I think that’s true. I think that Milbank over from like what? 2017-ish on has really set itself as leader on compensation whether or not they have the final word who’s to say, well, they have spoken to say, but they are the ones who absolutely are leading the charge and plenty of associates not just at Milbank but in the industry thanked them for it. I am positive.
Joe Patrice: 2016 is like that first raise. Then 2018, they did kind of basically a cost-of-living adjustment. That was the most absurd one of the raises because the market freaked out how dare you be raising salaries again. And when you broke it down, they didn’t even really raise salaries. They increased everybody’s by the amount that inflation had been over two years. So, it was just a basic cost of living.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, that’s interesting. Do you think the fact that inflation is a thing is part of why firms are doing this now?
Joe Patrice: I would certainly hope inflation is not a thing to the tune of this sort of raises.
Kathryn Rubino: Fair.
Joe Patrice: To this level of raises. Yeah, no.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. So, it ranges between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on class here, which we kind of had talked about this earlier that this is not just an individual salary because individual salaries go up every year as they progressed.
Joe Patrice: Right.
Kathryn Rubino: They go wrecking years become third year so that means they get a different salary. But what a third year in the abstract, its pay has gone up. I think $10,000 in that instance. But each of those years have seen them bumped between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on seniority.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Nothing.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. In so far, not every firm has matched at this point, but firms have started trickling into the match.
Kathryn Rubino: Most — I mean, this might date when we’re actually recording this.
Joe Patrice: Right. I guess, that’s fair.
Kathryn Rubino: But it is worth it to say that Davis Polk as we’ve kind of mentioned is another — they have a bit of a spoiler role on Milbank’s party. They often will come over the top of the established numbers either in terms of special bonuses or maybe for a higher class as pre-drafted I think in 2018, right, the (00:08:51) came over the top for more senior associates.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, in the middle of the run.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: And that’s the main. I think that is very much still on the table neither (00:09:00) DPW have moved yet. We’ll see what they do. I think if either of them come out to the scale that becomes the scale.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I think that’s right.
Chris Williams: I like to think the price raises are actually just a piece in contest between like senior partners or like some minor like a full pot of parties like you know what? I’m going to make your company pay all your associates way more money.
Joe Patrice: In some ways it’s kind of be is, right? I mean, that basically have a lateral market operates at this point. The amount of transactional work out there is outstripping the size of the staff of transactional lawyers that these have. They are going to keep increasing and raising the stakes of each other until they have enough folks to fulfill the demand.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I think it is really interesting. It does seem very much like a corporate partners or corporate work is really driving a lot of this.
I had a big law partner in litigation quipped to me that they can’t imagine a first-year associate is worth $215,000 a year. But I was like, well, talk to your partners because they think so.
Joe Patrice: And look, a lot of people complained about the amount of money lawyers make, but I don’t know. I got to sit back and say like I don’t think these folks have. When old lawyers complained no young associate is worth XYZ, I think they are really failing to grasp how expensive it is to get a law degree at this point. The amount of tuition it cost to get a law degree, the amount of debt folks are going into to get law degrees has reached a point where it is not feasible to pay associates a hundred grand anymore. If you want to incentivize anybody to go through the process to get a law degree, you actually have to start touching the 200 grand line just so they have some prospect of paying back their loans within the first 10 to 15 years of their lawyers. If you cut back on the amount of tuition, then perhaps you could cut back on how much you pay associates. But until that happens, it’s an input cost that has to be reflected.
Chris Williams: And the wild thing is that’s even the case for people that go to law school and end up going to big law because I know for a lot people they’re like, “Oh, I’ll just go to law school. I’ll get a big law gig for the summer to pay out some of my loans and then it’ll help in the long run.” They don’t get the big law gate and then they’ll start with the debt. The same amount of debt that people that go to big firms have, but they don’t have to pay to do it. It was like so much of the conversations about lawyers make a lot of money ignores the fact that most lawyers aren’t working in the big law gigs, but they have the caveat that just in front of them to help maintain the idea that, “Oh, this manageable. This would be fine.”
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And the idea of it — yeah and this is going to eventually cause that sort of mid-level and public interest shortage crisis, and were not breaking any new ground here. This has already happened in a bunch of other industries. Basically, you have to come in independently wealthy to go into public interest work in a bunch of different fields because of the way in which tuition has increased even at the undergrad level. But the law school explosion of debt has gotten so extreme that the idea — there was when I went to law school, it was already expensive. But a concept of I will work in big law for a few years and then do something else was still at least quasi plausible. You’d still have debt after that, but you wouldn’t necessarily be under water. So, it took me what? I think I finished my debt — finished off all of my debt after 10 years of working in both big law and at a boutique that paid functional and basically big law salaries. Then, that took me 10 and tuition has basically doubled at my alma mater in that period of time and salaries haven’t. So, to me, it seems as though the salaries are still not quite where they would need to be to match the cost that law schools are putting on folks, which is probably a reason we should do something about law schools. But in others, no appetite for that unfortunately.
Kathryn Rubino: (00:13:39) rough.
Joe Patrice: The moral of the story is folks are getting paid. That’s good. We’ll see if more people get paid.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: We’ll see if there’s another spiraling up of the amounts in the next few days, but yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay. That’s a more subtle.
Joe Patrice: I mean, I used it when we started this conversation. I just was closing the conversation with that. Let’s talk about — speaking of really rich people. You know, to put in perspective that paying an associate 200 grand is not that big a deal, let’s talk about Elon Musk.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. He tried to use his clothing influence to convince a big law firm to fire an associate. I mean, whatever, this is utterly a surprising about considering everything I’ve ever heard about Elon Musk as a human. So, there is that. But the thing part I think is that the big law firm is Cooley. Cooley was like, “No man. We’re not going to do it.” The reason why Elon Musk has it out for this associate is that the associate came to the firm from the SEC and while at the Securities and Exchange Commission interviewed Elon musk is part of — and if you remember Elon had sent a bunch of like tweets about like — and then affected the stock prices and there was a whole thing, and he had agreed to a bunch of things about what he was doing on Tweeter and like the in-house counsel, —
Tesla had like reviewed some of his tweets if they were on like the following subjects or something like that. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. And so, apparently, he did not enjoy being brought before the SEC. And now, that Cooley has hired them and Cooley does a bit or has historically done a bit of work for Tesla, and they are withdrawing. And now, they’ve apparently start to make arrangements already to withdraw some of their work from Cooley.
Joe Patrice: Well, to go to the Tweeter scandal that Musk is talking about. What really always tick me off about that conversation was the word tech bro folks who would stand up for him. What he would do is he essentially tweaked out. We’re having a great quarter here at Tesla sorts of information. It wasn’t that but something along those lines, and he would be divulging public information outside of the context of the earning calls and sort of outlets in which you are supposed to be giving up this information. He is functionally giving out insider information. This is a problem and people complain that our government all over and he should be able to say whatever he wants. It’s like, “Well, he should say whatever he wants if he doesn’t want to start putting his money on the market.” Like if he doesn’t want his company on the market, then he can say whatever he wants. He could be, you know, Mike Bloomberg and own the company himself and say whatever he wants. But if he feels he needs to make money by taking it to the stock market, then he’s got to follow some rules.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: There is nothing — it wasn’t really a complex. This wasn’t a freedom issue despite the fact that a bunch of stupid Libertarians try to turn it into one at a time. So, the SEC had to talk to him about you’re violating a bunch of the rules that exist to allow you to become the richest person in the world despite the fact your cars only work half the time.
Chris Williams: (00:16:58) now.
Joe Patrice: Okay, fair enough. I cheerfully withdrawn.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I think it’s interesting because folks — when we wrote about this story and (00:17:11) journal broke it and a bunch of people were talking about it, and I know I’ve heard some people say, “Oh well, it’s surprising that Cooley did not — the customer is always right that they didn’t choose the clients in this.” And I think that kind of misunderstands the dose of a lot of big law firms. I think that there’s this kind of collegiality and especially a firm like Cooley, which has in the past like one of the best places to work at kind of accolades, I think it says a lot about the firm and are going to pay the monetary cost for it. But I think that they’ll get it on the back end on recruiting.
Joe Patrice: I think that’s true. I think that we were just talking about how there’s more transactional work than there are people to go around dropping a client who while owned by a very rich person is not really keeping the whole company afloat, the whole firm afloat. And they’re not going to miss that too much at all, I don’t think. All of a sudden, they’ve now got an opportunity to get an SEC alone an opportunity to work on more stuff that seems like a win-win.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: I don’t know.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s rare that we get to have stories at Above the Law where I can just kind of unreservedly say good for them.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. You know what the difference between Cooley and a Tesla is?
Chris Williams: This better be good.
Joe Patrice: Cooley recognized the problem before he ran into it. So, —
Chris Williams: Kathryn, can we just do the show?
Kathryn Rubino: Okay. I’m broken. It’s okay.
Chris Williams: Much like a Tesla.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, there you go.
Joe Patrice: I’m on fire much like —
Kathryn Rubino: Much like it is.
Joe Patrice: You know, it pains me on like these jokes because I actually tend to come down on the self-driving car side of generally speaking. I mean, I think there are serious issues with accidents and its inability to recognize stuff. But I worry that a lot of folks are taking the fact that these companies are doing things that I think are probably moving too fast as a reason to not build self-driving cars as opposed to building better ones.
Kathryn Rubino: Building, right. Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I have huge problems with the way in which things are going now, but I always — and we actually did a show about this back when Ellie was my co-host about self-driving and what to do about it and he’s like, “They’re all like killing people and robots are awful,” and I was like, “Yeah.” They ultimately will be a better thing for the world if they came to work but that he’s been excused.
Chris Williams: Cars don’t get drunk.
Joe Patrice: Exactly. Cars don’t get drunk. Car is also —
Kathryn Rubino: They don’t even learn that.
Joe Patrice: I don’t know.
Kathryn Rubino: They don’t feel bad about.
Joe Patrice: I don’t know. The last time anybody was on a highway, but the car is also can be better drivers like a lot of accidents are caused by stupid people doing stupid things on highways.
That would not happen. In fact, we would probably be able to drive faster on highways if we had functional self-driving cars because you would be in a position where they wouldn’t have to worry about accidents and could therefore go faster. But yeah.
Chris Williams: I mean, they don’t rub their neck.
Joe Patrice: That’s not an excuse.
Chris Williams: They don’t rub their neck.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. They don’t rub their neck.
Chris Williams: They don’t (00:20:22).
Joe Patrice: You know, like huge problem. Yeah. They also understand stuff like don’t get in the left-hand lane unless you’re passing. Anyway, —
Chris Williams: But what if we had more self-driving cars, cops would probably have less probable cause to pull over black people? So, you got to believe the good with the bad.
Joe Patrice: I mean, there’s that (00:20:39) less probable cause to do any of the stuff because putting aside race issues which is a hard thing to do, but in this one in Alabama town that I wrote about, it’s still was true that there was no racial — it wasn’t really racial dynamic to what they were doing. There is a town in Alabama that now gets over half of its budget from just issuing needless fines to people on highways for, “Looked like you hesitated a little bit there” and like really ridiculous trump up stuff, a huge piece I didn’t do the original reporting on it. That was from the alabama.com.
Chris Williams: Alabama.com, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Which was a fantastic article that everyone should read about the way in which sudden fried corruption is alive and well in law enforcement in the south. So, but that wasn’t our next topic. Our next topic was — Kathryn, you also talk to us a little bit of a judge who wasn’t vaccinated.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. It was duchess county judge in New York. Judge Mora refused to get vaccinated. It is required in New York state for a judge — for any court personnel to get vaccinated or get an exemption. He applied for an exemption. It was denied. So, he was banned from the courthouse and said that he should what he is supposed to do remotely, et cetera. And Law 360 did some reporting and found that not only was he continuing to come to the courthouse on a near daily basis. He did it without a mask. Not only that, he didn’t show up like with a mask. He showed up with a face shield, you know, which is worthless basically, but at least some sort of show of something. But he was photographed at the courthouse with the face shield in his hand, barefaced, unvaccinated and proud. It’s obvious. It’s all the things. It’s all the things. Every person who works for the court system has to be vaccinated or get an exemption or else they’re fired except for judges, right, because there’s a whole judicial ethics separate process which can take over a year to adjudicate. The court has comments specifically on the judge, but it’s not great.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Not great. We live in a house scape, you guys.
Joe Patrice: This got me thinking about the giant (00:23:02) in New York Times, a defamation case finally has made it to trial, and he was supposed to kick off yesterday and it did not because —
Kathryn Rubino: Pwah, pwah, pwah.
Joe Patrice: You know, you just need to ask.
Kathryn Rubino: I felt it was more organic if I just said it and a little less jarring for folks.
Joe Patrice: Anyway, so he did not kick off because immediately before the trial began, she informed the court that she had come down with COVID. And then, she had to get a second test to confirm that and she had come down with COVID. This prompted the — I think under rated All-Star comment of a federal judge of the year so far, like an early in the leader box.
Kathryn Rubino: We should hold an annual contest for best —
Joe Patrice: Best thing that judge says.
Kathryn Rubino: Like better be bench flaps or whatever.
Joe Patrice: But just don’t call — Judge Rickhoff says she is of course unvaccinated in court when announcing this, which Judge Rickhoff continues to absolutely crush at this job when it comes to pithy remarks.
Chris Williams: I really love unhinge judges like I remember when was it? Thurgood got on the bench. There’s this one skit I think it was. Might have been SML but it was late or relayed by my TV. He was like, “Oh, I’m here now and what you want to do about it?” But I love when he like, “I have them positioned where I should be using decorum.” Fuck that. You dismissed my soul there.
Joe Patrice: I mean, I’ve had interactions with Judge Rickhoff. Before like, I mean, perfect decorum just the ability to have that sarcastic twist of a knife, right, when it’s most effective. It really 10 points.
Kathryn Rubino: Ten points to Gryffindor, whatever.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Oh, that you say to Gryffindor. I mean, obviously, the whole Harry Potter legacy is a little messed up these days. But, I mean, that’s —
Kathryn Rubino: No, a lot.
Joe Patrice: That’s what we should do. We should run a sorting hat on the entire federal judiciary figure out where they are.
Chris Williams: The sorting wig. It would be a sorting wig.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, the sorting wig.
Kathryn Rubino: Amazing.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Chris Williams: And the best thing about would be that (00:25:18) will get online and talk about how’s the liberal Genia to force gender on male justices.
Joe Patrice: See, I mean, it wouldn’t. You wouldn’t have to force gender. I mean, it’s hard work to coed these days.
Chris Williams: Well, the wig like, “Oh, they’re just trying to (00:25:33) whatever.
Joe Patrice: Well, right, I see.
Chris Williams: Because remember there was a guy take the calls and he got mad that degraded him and the man isn’t sexy anymore.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, I mean, that is a huge issue.
Chris Williams: It is making him angry.
Joe Patrice: Clearly, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Geez. (00:25:52).
Joe Patrice: The green Eminem. Yeah, that’s the part really kills me is that the green Eminem discourse was something that I had to live through.
Kathryn Rubino: And we’re all stupid for having lived through.
Joe Patrice: We’re all stupid for having lived through all of this. I’ll tell you the onion I think put up a headline that was something like Nestlé reminds people they conceptualize razor that’s any way they want.
Chris Williams: This was a long time to get you to say that on air. I just want you to know that, that sentence.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough. So, I think that’s it, right?
Kathryn Rubino: We’re done.
Joe Patrice: Cool. Thanks everybody for listening. You should be subscribed to the show so you get new updates. When they come out, you should give reviews to the show. Not just give its five stars which obviously, but also write down some words, you know, in that way it shows that you’re engaged, cared enough to write words which the computers will figure as a reason to say that it’s popular. With that said, you should be following us on social media. I’m @josephpatrice. She is @kathryn1. Chris is @rightsforrent. You should be listening to other shows. Kathryn is also the host of the JABO. I’m guest on the Legal Tech Week Journalist Roundtable. You should also check out the other Legal Talk Network Programs that we aren’t necessarily on. You should be reading Above the Law all the time.
That way you can see these stories before they hit the Thinking Like a Lawyer feed, which is very useful when it comes to salary increases because we are putting those up as quickly as we have them.
Kathryn Rubino: As they happen real-time, folks.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, the real-time. And yeah, cool. With all that said, we will talk to you all next week.
Kathryn Rubino: Peace. Bye.
Chris Williams: Peace.
Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com