Joe and Kathryn discuss bar exam horror stories. The last — hopefully — pandemic bar exam continued to bring calamity and examiners seem largely unfazed that applicants are being put through glitches and computer crashes over it. Amy Chua remains in the headlines, but this time because rumors suggest that the school might punish students for meeting with her. And we talk about more Biglaw firm reopenings after one firm announced that they’ll be cutting off building ID cards for the unvaccinated.
Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.
Joe Patrice: Hello and welcome to —
Kathryn Rubino: Hello.
Joe Patrice: Really thought I was getting away with that. Welcome to another edition —
Kathryn Rubino: You can’t get away with anything with me. Let’s be clear.
Joe Patrice: Welcome to another edition of Thinking Like A Lawyer. I’m Joe Patrice from Above The Law. The voice you heard is for now my colleague, Kathryn Rubino.
Kathryn Rubino: What? You can’t fire me unilaterally certainly.
Joe Patrice: Well, no, for now. I mean if people are just checking on the show after years and wondering where Ellie is. I’m just letting them know.
Kathryn Rubino: I’ve been the co-host for over a year.
Joe Patrice: It’s been a while, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, and even before then I was a regular visitor to the podcast. So hopefully, people are at least passingly familiar with the dulcet tones of my voice.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough. So were from Above The Law and hopefully you’re reading that, but we also do this show to have a little opportunity to talk about some of the big stories that we had from the previous week. Give us an opportunity to kind of wax —
Kathryn Rubino: Chitchat.
Joe Patrice: — philosophically about things that came up.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Give each other a fair amount of shit, yeah. I think that’s —
Joe Patrice: That seems to be — well, now, that’s certainly how this has developed.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean that is kind of the highlight of the podcast for me personally.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I noticed and yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I think everyone has and appreciates it actually.
Joe Patrice: Your definition of everyone is not complete.
Kathryn Rubino: Yes, Joe.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, anything cool that you’ve been doing, you want to report in this section of the show that we call Random Chitchat.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay, okay, okay. So this weekend was a good deal colder than you would expect for the middle of summer. So that’s what I was doing. I hung outside with a bunch of friends, but we had a heater on even though we were outside because it was in the 60s and that is entirely too cold for August just FYI.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, for those of you listening to us from the West Coast, we’re sorry.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, yes.
Joe Patrice: Because this seems like we’re mocking your situation.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, its’ all part of cataclysmic climate change, right?
Joe Patrice: Yeah, sure.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, it’s not great.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: On that, I’m uplifting now.
Kathryn Rubino: I haven’t even like wanted to go swimming hardly at all this year except when I was visiting my family in Texas because it’s been too cold. It’s not swimming weather in my mind. How about you? What did you do this weekend?
Joe Patrice: So I watched Looney Tunes.
Kathryn Rubino: You watched Looney Tunes?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So it came to my attention, I did not know this, but as part of my cable package, I have access to an on-demand thing that has the entire catalogue of Looney Tunes, which I had not known, but was exciting for me. I watched some Wile E. Coyote and I also had some folks over and they had a young child, a five-year-old, who was seeing Wile E. Coyote for the first time.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, how cute.
Joe Patrice: And just felt, A, laughed hysterically throughout it, and B, felt it was very important to keep turning to me to let me know that she doesn’t think the plan is going work. Just every time Wile E. would come up with a new Acme thing, she’d turn and be like it’s not going to work and I was like that is going to be how this gag ends, yeah. There was something kind of pure about how she really felt like I needed to know that, like I needed my hand held through that process.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. It’s interesting. I remember back in ‘90s or whatever, there were all those Warner Bros. stores and I felt like Warner Bros. took a larger percentage of kind of the cultural zeitgeist or whatever, and now they have Space Jam 2, I guess, which is part of this whole —
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Is Looney Toons coming back? Is Warner Bros. going to be a thing again? We’ll see.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And from what I can tell from their box office numbers, no is the answer to that, but you know whatever. Anyway, so yeah, cartoons and they were fun. I really enjoyed that.
Kathryn Rubino: You had a jam-packed weekend, it sounds like.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and this concludes Random Chitchat.
I don’t know why I played with the soundboard right now.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, it does make me personally happy. So I approve.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, so —
Kathryn Rubino: I mean I know that you do most things from my personal approval.
Joe Patrice: Oh yeah. So what do you want to talk about first? We have some stories that we have in a planning way actually talked about what we might talk about on the show so there won’t be any surprises. So what do you think you want to talk about first? And you’re staring at me blankly. See, this is why —
Kathryn Rubino: I feel like a deer.
Joe Patrice: I don’t understand why these pre-production meetings even happen because nobody listens to me. I try so hard.
Kathryn Rubino: I think that’s a “you” problem.
Joe Patrice: The bar exam was last week.
Kathryn Rubino: The bar exam was last week. How’d that go?
Joe Patrice: Not great. It will be the last time that we do a bar exam remotely at least barring unintended anything else happening.
Kathryn Rubino: The delta variant might have something to say.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, but it seems as though this is the last run of remote ones and what happened was people’s computers crashed mid-exam.
Kathryn Rubino: So I know historically there was that example like years ago now, like five or six years ago, whatever it was, when ExamSoft went down for practically everybody in the country. Are we talking on that scale again or?
Joe Patrice: It’s unclear.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay.
Joe Patrice: As of now the individual bar exams who have been asked for comment have no estimate on how many people were impacted. We know from social media that it seems like a lot of people, but that’s about all that we have. What basically happened is mid-exam they would get what those of us who are old enough to have used old school like Windows ‘98 sort of systems would call the blue screen of death.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, no.
Joe Patrice: Would come up in the middle of the exam. It was very terrifying for people. It was very problematic for bar exams because no one was really around to help. ExamSoft was not necessarily responding immediately. There was one case where somebody, the only way they could get a hold of ExamSoft was to tweet at them which is not ideal and they got an answer five minutes later that said, “Please have all this conversation in our DMs.” I guess they don’t want that publicly visible that people are upset.
Kathryn Rubino: So, these were folks who were trying to take the bar exam from home generally speaking.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, generally speaking because that’s where you have less help. But we have people who were asked questions like, “Do I have to go to the next section when I come back? Do I have to close out this section and go to the next one even though there is an hour left in this section?” Stuff like that was happening. Some people were down for an extended period, at least at first, New York at least at first was telling folks they do not get that time back that they lost on the questions, but that was an early report when I think hopefully they thought it was a limited issue. Maybe by now it’s changed. There are people who are groups who are putting the other petitions to ask the State Supreme Courts to step in and force kind of a cooler head prevailing situation, where we —
Kathryn Rubino: This doesn’t seem great, and I mean there is a distinction to I think between the kind of historic ExamSoft debacle when everybody kind of in a room where like, “Oh, we’re all having this problem.” There’s a sort of comfort in knowing that you’re not alone. But when you’re kind of isolated by circumstance to do it from a remote location and if you are the only one, there’s not going to be any remedy for you, right? So there is that additional panic that kind of sets in. If it’s a system failure, one certainly hopes that cooler head prevail as you mentioned, but if you really are worried that you are alone in this, that is terrifying.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and that is kind of what happened. A lot of people were isolated and felt they were the only ones having this issue. Is it ultimately the bar exams put out statements saying, “If everyone hard-reboots their computer before every session, we think it will be okay,” which seems to have solved the problem for people. ExamSoft released a statement.
Kathryn Rubino: That’s not great though.
Joe Patrice: No. Well, ExamSoft released a statement and they feel that they’re still investigating, but they’ve looked at the problem and they have come to the conclusion that it’s obviously not their fault.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s just as a coincidence that multiple jurisdictions and people —
Joe Patrice: Yeah, well, it’s obviously everyone else’s fault but theirs, which you may recall from when a number of senators, Elizabeth Warren and a bunch of other senators complained to ExamSoft about the previous administration of the remote bar exam about the issues people were having with facial recognition software and their response to those senators at the time was a letter saying we think that’s their fault, it’s not ours. Even though this was a flagged issue that the facial recognition software didn’t work, they said, “We assume that’s just that people have bad lighting.” So this idea of blaming everybody but yourselves is a trend.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it’s a thing they come back to a lot, huh?
Joe Patrice: At this point, their argument is, “We assume that everyone had computers that didn’t have enough memory.” The problem with this — so there are two problems with this as far as I can tell. One, assume they’re right that that’s the problem. That’s still ExamSoft’s fault. We had mock exams. We had troubleshooting sessions. There were instructions. If the issue was that these computers had a fundamental memory problem, then how was that not found beforehand and addressed?
Kathryn Rubino: Right.
Joe Patrice: Two, we have reason to believe that maybe — maybe that’s not the issue. It sparked a number of back and forth on Reddit in particular, which is of social medias it’s very bulletin boardie, so people are going back and forth explaining their situation, like I have a brand new computer that had 8 gigs. I have a brand new — you know like all of this sort of thing.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it’s problematic that the go-to response is always it’s somebody else’s fault and there does not seem to be too much motivation for the individual jurisdictions to find a different provider.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean, well, there isn’t one is the one thing. There are three companies really in this space. One of them was behind the Indiana and Michigan exams that crashed and burned early.
And so they are out of the space. There is ExamSoft and there is Extegrity. And Extegrity was the one who released the statement very early on in the pandemic saying, “We understand that you want this. We have looked at what it would take to make this happen, and we do not feel confident that those technical hurdles could be overcome to create a stable system in this short of a turnaround,” which is a very fair statement.
Kathryn Rubino: And what we’re finding is that there was not a stable system.
Joe Patrice: And it seems as though Extegrity may have been right about their estimation of what you can do in a few months.
Kathryn Rubino: And fundamentally lost out for actually being honest.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And look, ExamSoft obviously — and that’s other thing people make mentioned of is that ExamSoft obviously is a provider that does a lot of like law school exams and such, and people are saying on these boards, “I’ve used ExamSoft the entire time during my law school career and it has never crashed on this computer until now,” suggesting as expected by a lot of people that this is a problem with the bells and whistles that had been added to this to make a bar exam.
Kathryn Rubino: Specifically for the bar.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: And that’s where you get into trouble when you start bolting stuff on with not a lot of turnaround and troubleshooting. So it’s very unfortunate. We’re following this story, hopefully — I mean, we’ve used the phrase cooler heads prevail. Hopefully, someone will come along and say we’re just not going to let this go forward where you can have a profession-altering debacle happen to you just because we didn’t really plan this out all that well.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean they’re not going to do that, right?
Joe Patrice: Right, because we’re talking bar exam.
Kathryn Rubino: Right. Just you know, we can wish and hope, but the reality will likely fall far short of that.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, really problematic. We’re hopeful for all of you out there. As of right now, there’s not much you can do but just got to stay strong until Thanksgiving or whenever they actually tell you what happened in this exam. Yeah. It’s not —
Kathryn Rubino: Stressful.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s not the smoothest. Bar exams aren’t the smoothest operation. You could really streamline how they go about and administer those things.
Kathryn Rubino: Could you streamline it?
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: What else can you streamline, I wonder.
Joe Patrice: Administrative tasks as a general, yeah. So let’s make this the opportunity where we hear from Lexicon.
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Joe Patrice: All right, so the other story that has been in the news is I think we’ve talked on the show. Obviously, you’ve seen not just from me but from basically everybody who writes in the legal space has had an Amy Chua story lately. Amy Chua, Yale Law Professor known to people who haven’t followed legal circles their whole life as the tiger mom, that’s how she got kind of pop culture famous. She is in a bit of trouble because she has been meeting with students it appears at least according to the allegations.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, that sounds maybe like a good —
Joe Patrice: Right, that’s what a professor should do, but she has been meeting with students in her home and apparently, from what people say and we can gather, a condition of her continued employment at Yale Law School was that she stop doing that, and the reason stems from the fact that her husband has been put on a couple of years suspension because an independent investigation determined there were some sexual harassment issues, and so —
Kathryn Rubino: So maybe they didn’t want law school students in the same house.
Joe Patrice: Hanging in their house, yeah. So she got in trouble over that, not fired or anything, but just told that she could no longer have those kind of groups.
Kathryn Rubino: Right, and then it kind of launched her own personal PR campaign in response.
Joe Patrice: Yes, where she did a number of interviews all of which weirdly involve her inviting the reporters over to her house almost like she doesn’t get what the fundamental problem is, which is a dogged determination to make sure everyone hangs out in her house. Anyway, so that’s been talked about a lot.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s probably a really nice house.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, from what I can tell, it is. But this has been a big conversation in both legal circles and in academic circles. There has been so little bit of blowback on social media where some reporters who talk about this where making the joke that the world’s Amy Chua coverage has gotten out of hand. Talk about like 88% of all of our stories are about this and it’s not as important as other issues. And you know, a law school dean got involved and said, yeah, that’s kind of an above-the-law problem because we kind of inspire that kind of fixation on gossipy things, which I push back against because I know him and he agrees ultimately once we talked through it, which is that while we do talk a lot about gossip stuff, this transcends gossip.
This is actually important. If there is a situation in which bad things have happened, went unchecked for several years, and now happening, like that should be brought to light.
Kathryn Rubino: Also mean gossip is also a way to downplay the import of things like whisper networks, right? If there are — you know, taking it outside of the specific example here, but when there are allegations of sexual harassment or other problematic actors, often time the only way folks know about is through informal gossipy sort of channels. And what we found through the entirety of the Me Too Movement, right? Is that these are actually very valuable, particularly for vulnerable populations, to have access to and to know about. And sure, maybe we report a lot of things in more of a gossipy tone, but I do think that like making sure that there is this kind of transparency and knowledge that transcends just those who happen to be in the know is incredibly important.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s not okay to just say, “Oh, it’s a rumor, it’s a gossip, it’s gossip, it’s not important.” But we know is that gossip is often very important.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and obviously he agreed and all, and so we moved on, didn’t want to like call him out on that, but it is a sign of how people can sometimes think that like we’ve over told the story because at a certain point it becomes — when you see it every day for weeks and weeks and weeks, there’s a fatigue that sets in and that’s a situation where fatigue may not be necessary. I will also say there is a situation in which Yale — there are new reports that the students who met with her might be getting in trouble with Yale.
Kathryn Rubino: They’re not the ones who signed the agreement, right? She’s the one who said that she would not meet with the students. They did not say that.
Joe Patrice: Apparently though. They knew they weren’t supposed to be meeting with her and so they’re going get in trouble or potentially, which bothers me to no end because —
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, deep sigh.
Joe Patrice: Which bothers me to no end because listen, it’s not their fault.
Kathryn Rubino: Nope.
Joe Patrice: If a powerful professor, no matter what’s going on with their deal, takes an interest in helping me, I’m going to meet with that person, right? If I’m a student. And that’s the other thing, not for nothing. Let’s give credit, she is known as being very helpful to students who she gets involved — she doesn’t get involved with every student, but to the extent —
Kathryn Rubino: For years, she was in charge of the —
Joe Patrice: Clerkship program and all. She is very helpful to people. She is generous with her time on that front. And so, if she is going to help you, you have to go do that. And she gave recommendations apparently to them about what they should do with their law school career that they followed, and she was probably right about that. That’s not really the point here though.
Kathryn Rubino: Right.
Joe Patrice: But it still means no, you don’t punish the students for doing what you have to do as a student. And so that’s really problematic and I hope that doesn’t come to pass. Should we just call this episode “Cooler Heads Prevail” because I think this is where this comes in? I hope that nobody gets in trouble there because it wasn’t their fault. And as for her involvement, if she ever is allowed to have these sorts of meetings with kids again — I don’t want to say kids.
Kathryn Rubino: Students.
Joe Patrice: Students, yeah, because they aren’t necessarily kids, even though I may be older than them. If she does get the opportunity to meet with students again, you can meet at Starbucks, it’s fine.
Kathryn Rubino: Right. There are coffee shops aplenty.
Joe Patrice: Or you know, when I was young we called them —
Kathryn Rubino: Back in my day.
Joe Patrice: We call them office hours because they would have an office that you could go to. I understand there was a lockdown at the time, but still. Anyway.
Kathryn Rubino: There are parks and public spaces.
Joe Patrice: Right, exactly.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: I mean, you went to law school to be lawyer.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, here you go. Yeah. You did.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Not an accountant.
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Kathryn Rubino: So, I think the other big story of the week, we kind of mentioned it on last week’s podcast.
Joe Patrice: It felt like a year ago.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s been a really long week. Anyway, it was about going back to the office and the big law firms or elite law firms that are requiring vaccinations. We have a more full list than what we talked about last week, but the firms that we know about that are currently requiring vaccinations before they return to the office are Cooley, Clifford Chance, Davis Wright Tremaine, Dickinson Wright, Fenwick & West, Hanson Bridgett, Hogan Lovells, Hueston Hennigan, Lowenstein Sandler, Mintz, Paul Weiss, Sanford Heisler, Weil Gotshal, Arent Fox and Davis Polk. So it’s a quite a list.
Joe Patrice: That is. When we talked about Clifford Chance kind of being an early one was, it was the forcefulness of the statement.
Because I know that some of those firms have very much gave a “you should be vaccinated if you come back here.” There wasn’t really an “or else” to it. And your point is that Davis Polk, the most recent one that we’ve heard from, may have the strongest “or else.”
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, this is the first firm that has an actual enforcement mechanism near as I can tell for the vaccination requirement. They are going to shut off folks’ ID card access to the physical firm location if they are not vaccinated.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. So you can’t go the office. They’re not going to like depend on you to just keep to — it’s not going to be the honor system. It’s going to be no, you can’t swipe it.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean that’s great.
Kathryn Rubino: I think there are a lot of questions that folks have about this. You know, is this the end of it? If they can’t go to the office, will their services no longer be required? Does it depend on what their role at the firm is? If you have maybe a service role at the firm that does function better within service and you’re not willing to be vaccinated, what does that mean? Those are very much open questions. The firm said that there would be an appeals process but nothing would be guaranteed in terms of whether or not they would approve it or under what conditions or any of that kind of stuff. So very early days in the sense that they just announced the new program within the past week or so, so we don’t really know how it will all shake out, but that is the most forceful statement that we’ve seen. The first one that said there are very specific consequences for refusing to be vaccinated.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and that we aren’t going to take the risk even though we will probably have some hybrid and flexible working models going forward at least for a while, we’re not going to take the risk that even though you could work from home and could come to the office, we aren’t taking the risk that you pop into the office if you haven’t been vaccinated.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, and I think that there’s definitely lack of trust for people who haven’t been vaccinated, who have access to vaccines in this country. They are widely available. And if you haven’t availed yourself of a vaccine, yes, then I think that it’s not just on the honor system. I think that you go to grocery stores who said it’s like only masks for the vaccinated and you see like children without masks or something that you know that anybody under 12 cannot be vaccinated and they’re there with their parents and the parents are totally fine with the kids not wearing masks. And it makes one wonder, do we really have 100% vaccination rate in this area or has everyone just kind of given up if they haven’t been vaccinated? And the Delta variant certainly seems to be taking advantage of this.
Joe Patrice: Seems problematic, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So good to know that kind of the floodgates opening not just with firms making mandates, but also now we’re starting to see that there is an enforcement mechanism somebody has come out with that we’re probably going to start seeing some of those other firms adopt that I would assume.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, and we’ve also gotten some tips at Above The Law. You can always email us, that’s [email protected]. Just a little plug there, where folks are wondering and potentially worrying that they will fire folks who are not vaccinated, there’s no official statement about that at all on any level at any firms as near as we can tell, but I think that it is something that’s part of the conversation that’s going on within the big law community.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, interesting week. Well, maybe all those people will get vaccinated, maybe cooler heads will prevail and get that. I don’t know, like I’m trying to go with the theme here.
Kathryn Rubino: You’re trying. You’re like a square peg in a round hole.
Joe Patrice: And that’s a theme that kind of came up organically. It didn’t come up in our pre-production meeting. I don’t know why.
Kathryn Rubino: Did we have a pre-production meeting?
Joe Patrice: We did.
Kathryn Rubino: Did we?
Joe Patrice: I don’t know where you were. I mean you were there.
Kathryn Rubino: Was I?
Joe Patrice: Apparently not. I’m like were you though?
Kathryn Rubino: When did we have this meeting? Two weeks ago? I don’t even know.
Joe Patrice: No. No. Couldn’t do it two weeks ago. These are new stories.
Kathryn Rubino: That’s what I’m saying.
Joe Patrice: It’s an hour before the show.
Kathryn Rubino: Interesting.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Interesting.
Joe Patrice: You were plugged in. Like I saw your face, but apparently —
Kathryn Rubino: I remember writing stories an hour before the show so that we could have something to publish as we record.
Joe Patrice: That’s fair.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s what I mostly remember. Sorry. I’ll try to pay more attention to the pre-production meeting next week.
Joe Patrice: All right, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: I’ll try. That’s all I got, is an earnest effort will be made.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough. All right, well, so we can be done now.
Kathryn Rubino: You’re done with me?
Joe Patrice: Wits’ end. But, yeah, no, so thanks for listening. You should be subscribed to the show, give it reviews, write something about it, let more people know it’s out there. You should listen to our other shows. She is the host of The Jabot. I am a participant in the Legaltech Week Journalist Roundtable. It doesn’t roll off the tongue, so I always got to like take a second.
Kathryn Rubino: You can write it down and then read it.
Joe Patrice: Then I lose kind of the free flowing nature.
Kathryn Rubino: But it might make it roll off the tongue a little better, and you wouldn’t sound so labored every time you’re trying to struggle for the word table.
Joe Patrice: Listen to some of the other shows at the Legal Talk Network. Obviously, even the ones we don’t host that you should be reading Above The Law.
Kathryn Rubino: Follow us on Twitter. I’m Kathryn1, that’s the numeral 1 He’s @JosephPatrice.
Joe Patrice: That’s really great. You’ve taken —
Kathryn Rubino: Initiative.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Also, you looked like you’re on a struggle bus. Did you have a long weekend?
Joe Patrice: I was about to cough, so. I was trying to suppress that. I thought I would cough and we’d edit that out and I’d just keep going, but you just jumped right in there, which made me trying to prevent the cough even more difficult because now I couldn’t cough because you were talking. But I still appreciate the gesture. So I’m not going to be, you know.
Kathryn Rubino: Just you know, I’m here to help you even if I don’t pay attention in the pre-production meetings.
Joe Patrice: Sound like it. Yeah, and what else? Thanks to Nota powered by M&T Bank and Lexicon for hosting.
Kathryn Rubino: Sponsoring, we’re hosting.
Joe Patrice: Oh, right, sponsor, yeah. Okay.
Kathryn Rubino: See? Struggle bus, I’m trying.
Joe Patrice: With all that said, we will check in with everybody again next week.
Kathryn Rubino: Peace.
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Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com