Irritating judges isn’t recommended, but it really went off the rails for a couple of lawyers in the past few days. In Missouri, an attorney told off a judge and landed himself a week in jail. In NY, a lawyer kept picking at a federal judge long enough that the judge absolutely lost it on him. We also talk about the pervert calling libraries across the country asking them to read him a Supreme Court case while he masturbates. And we talk about firm office reopenings — is it time for firms to pull the trigger and start mandating vaccines?
Special thanks to our sponsors, Lexicon and Nota.
Kathryn Rubino: Hello.
Joe Patrice: And welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer I’m Joe Patrice from Above the Law, that is Kathryn Rubino. We are back to talk about some of the legal stories of the week of, you know, of the wilder, more ridiculous kind, less stuffy kind than some other legal podcast, might talk about as befitting our brand. And otherwise yeah, how are things going?
Kathryn Rubino: Good. Good. I had — I went on a road trip this weekend, that was a thing.
Joe Patrice: Okay.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I went to San Antonio and then drove up till we go from there, it’s kind of fun. We did some family.
Joe Patrice: That is nice.
Kathryn Rubino: That’s a good time, how about you, do you have anything fun?
Joe Patrice: No, no, why would I?
Kathryn Rubino: You don’t have fun anymore?
Joe Patrice: No, I mean, my days are spent scouring the legal industry for the —
Kathryn Rubino: Even your weekends?
Joe Patrice: I mean it’s a never-ending job.
Kathryn Rubino: You think you would be better at it, then.
Joe Patrice: Okay. And then that happened. I actually I just finished a story on a vanity license plate there.
Kathryn Rubino: In Texas?
Joe Patrice: No, this one’s from the Peach State. It’s a Georgia Plate Mens Rea with the three for the replacing the E.
Kathryn Rubino: Huh?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I’m just kind of confused as to what is being promoted by that license plate.
Kathryn Rubino: I would imagine.
Joe Patrice: That I’m a criminal like —
Kathryn Rubino: I imagine a criminal defense attorney.
Joe Patrice: I mean maybe but like, is innocent or reasonable doubt like already taken or something like.
Kathryn Rubino: Probably.
Joe Patrice: I mean it’s not even — it’s a term that not like — if you’re trying to advertise that you’re a defense lawyer, like it’s a term that is very inside. I don’t think the average client knows what it is so it’s not really —
Kathryn Rubino: But isn’t that better than it’s, well maybe they’re trying to speak to like a nod, nod, wink, wink kind of a moment.
Joe Patrice: I guess, I don’t know. Just seems like a bad strategy for life because you’re going to get pulled over constantly because you already done half the cop’s job for them.
Kathryn Rubino: There goes mens rea.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, you can’t deny that you don’t have mens rea.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I see what you did there.
Joe Patrice: Yeah? Okay.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s a far to go for a mediocre joke but I saw it.
Joe Patrice: I do not have to sit here and take this sort of abuse.
Kathryn Rubino: You actually do. Because this part is your job —
Joe Patrice: Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, well it’s good to have you back. Always, always, pleasant have these little check-ins.
Kathryn Rubino: (00:02:43) this is not pleasant?
Joe Patrice: So no, no of course it is.
Kathryn Rubino: That’s not an answer.
Joe Patrice: No, I mean of course, of course, of course, of course. So yeah —
Kathryn Rubino: I don’t feel reassured, just to listen (00:02:56) nothing is being pulled over my eyes.
Joe Patrice: So let’s talk about some stories from the last week and perhaps the biggest one that we haven’t already talked about is a troubling one that is very serious and I don’t want to minimize the seriousness of it by focusing on the goofy aspects of it but we do have to focus on the goofy aspects of it, because it’s where it intersects with our legal world. There is a scourge of the library world going around. There is somebody who is calling up libraries and making obscene phone calls, clearly, you know, trying —
Kathryn Rubino: So they’re like they’re calling and making lewd jokes, what do they do?
Joe Patrice: I mean they are calling and doing things to themselves as they are being read to by librarians.
Kathryn Rubino: Huh?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So, which is, you know, obviously this is sexual harassment, and it’s bad. And there were some librarians who, when we wrote about this story, got all upset with me for making light of sexual harassment, which I don’t think I was doing. This is harassment, this is bad and people need to be stopped. What I did however, focus in on was the weirdest aspect of this person in that they don’t call libraries to get librarians to read from them just, you know, shaking it up with a different strategy —
Kathryn Rubino: Or is itlike, erotica that they’re having being read?
Joe Patrice: Right, no, they’re asking for Supreme Court cases to be read to them. In fact, one specific they want Brady versus Maryland read to them always.
Kathryn Rubino: What?
Joe Patrice: Which, I mean like if you’re —
Kathryn Rubino: What do you mean is Brady versus Maryland?
Joe Patrice: I mean, it’s — well you know, I think our friend with the mens rea license plate would know, this is a Brady material case, this is the case about how prosecutors have to turn over exculpatory evidence.
Kathryn Rubino: That doesn’t seem very erotic to me.
Joe Patrice: It doesn’t. I mean, the one question in that this person —
when they have the option of calling for the different requests every time but they instead have an MO, which suggests certain pathological aspects of this behavior like they want the notoriety from it, I guess.
Kathryn Rubino: Do you think that’s either I think it’s like a super specific kink, like it’s only Brady that gets them off.
Joe Patrice: Well I mean that’s the thing like how could that be? There’s nothing particularly —
Kathryn Rubino: But then why do any — why not just be like anything? Like why is Supreme Court case of all things? Are they calling only law libraries?
Joe Patrice: No, they’re calling regular libraries saying that their computers broken down, they need the librarian to read it, not necessarily read it, sometimes it’s read commentary about it, whatever it is, it’s Brady versus Maryland. Now there is some in library corners of the internet which I spent a good deal of time hanging out.
Kathryn Rubino: I do not know that those existed but here we are.
Joe Patrice: There is some belief that this person maybe a serial offender that the library world has encountered before because apparently someone several years ago had a similar MO where they would call and ask a librarian to read John Grisham titles to them —
Kathryn Rubino: Again legally related though.
Joe Patrice: Right, that’s why there’s some speculation that this may be the same perpetrator who has moved on —
Kathryn Rubino: Jerking off to just the titles of John Grisham novels?
Joe Patrice: Yeah, right. I mean, Firm, Rainmaker, I mean, I can see it. That’s actually more — there’s actually more of a chance of eroticism out of that than there is out of Brady.
Kathryn Rubino: But there’s no like plot or I just, I don’t get it.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s weird and it’s — we are not trying to diminish the seriousness of it. Obviously this is bad but like what in the world? Who, what kind of person wants but you know, chooses Brady here? We understand the kind of person who sexually harasses people.
Kathryn Rubino: Unfortunately, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Dirtbags and Supreme Court Justices. But like yeah, it’s a weird, weird —
Kathryn Rubino: It’s a very specific SCOTUS kink.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: But I think it is interesting that in, if the speculation on the library corners of the internet is correct that it is the same character that there’s something legally related about both of the things you know, the John Grisham novel, the SCOTUS case, like what is there? There’s something there, like deep, I mean, I’m not a psychologist, don’t play one on TV. But like, there’s something there.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And one would hope that this would be the sort of thing that could help someone catch said person, like if you — because if you could localize where these things are coming from and then you can you know, you have the additional bit of information that it’s probably somebody legally related. If it is the same person who did this Grisham stuff, it’s somebody of a certain age because that was several years ago. So you know, it’s got to be someone. So hopefully by getting this sort of conversation out there it can help people (00:08:02) this down but yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, so strange, I mean, I think it certainly has to be somebody of a certain age also because they are aware of libraries and —
Joe Patrice: Yeah, no. That’s it, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: No, but you know, I think that that folks who come of age in sort of the internet age, probably don’t go to, that’s not their first line of eroticism.
Joe Patrice: Well, you know, it’s interesting. You mentioned that because putting aside, whether or not they know libraries exist. It actually did trigger with me, oh right, you used to be able to call libraries and have them look stuff up.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Which is in an era of Google, not anything — I agree with you. I don’t think there is a whole generation of people who know that that’s used to be a function library’s deed. So it’s somebody at least of that kind of generation.
Kathryn Rubino: Right, it’s interesting, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and really, really weird.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it’s a very, very peculiar. I certainly hope this person is caught and it ends, but it is really — but also, you know, kind of the flip side of the internet age is, it’s something that probably wouldn’t have even come to light pre-internet, right? Because the notion that like a library in Tacoma would know that the same thing that’s happening to them, same thing was happening to a librarian in, I don’t, you know.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, no, one that is actually what’s happening like the library boards have been talking about this for a couple of weeks now. Came to light for me from a Tumblr that had picked it up because tumblers still exists but yeah, no, they had picked up these conversations on different library boards, so yeah, no, it is weird.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, you know, I’m fascinated to see how you’re going to make this into ad read transition though.
Joe Patrice: I really wasn’t even going to try.
Kathryn Rubino: Try? Good job. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Joe Patrice: Yeah no.
Kathryn Rubino: So thank you to our advertisers.
Joe Patrice: Anyway, no, whoever this is yeah, you got to assume that they are probably a lawyer and somebody went to law school to be a lawyer and not an accountant, I guess?
Kathryn Rubino: Maybe? I don’t — like can we just somebody who came across like has had like run-ins to like the legal —
Joe Patrice: Are you not — like that was the beginning of the ad like you’re just talking over it.
Kathryn Rubino: I was, what, you sparked more conversation than me — I thought you —
Joe Patrice: Oh okay, all right, well yeah, well go on, what’s the more conversation?
Kathryn Rubino: Well is it necessarily a lawyer perhaps it’s something —
Joe Patrice: Well it could be law student, or now it can be (00:10:37) student probably because their age issues.
Kathryn Rubino: But not necessarily somebody who I mean law students are not always of a certain age, but I was going to say, just maybe somebody who said run-ins with the industry, you know, maybe someone who’s been a defendant or something like that, and it’s come across the cases and that way.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Could be. I mean, the law is, you know, a big part of like society.
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You also wrote about a lawyer this past week, a lawyer who’s got some contempt issues?
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting, it was just an order for contempt that a judge issued because the lawyer appears to have said fuck you to the judge. So yeah, you’re — don’t do that.
Joe Patrice: Reading from a transcript or?
Kathryn Rubino: No, no, no, I mean, yeah, I mean the only the record we have of it is the contempt order so we don’t know the exact way it came up, what the issues involved were, but we do know that the judge did not take kindly to it. The judge did not think that it was some sort of an incidental, you know, utterance or something like that. And it seemed to be very directed at the judge and the judge ordered the lawyer to spend a week in jail.
Joe Patrice: So okay, I am not endorsing contempt, obviously. One week, it seems a bit much.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I mean probably, you know, as I said this is only the order like hasn’t been or at least I haven’t seen any updates that suggests that the lawyer responded or that they were even taken to jail or anything at this point, right? So it could be, you know, they issue an apology and the judge reduces it or, you know, something like that like, lots of that kind of stuff happens. This is very, you know, we don’t have a ton of information except that, you know, “fuck you” was who’s that at least said to a judge and it’s not okay.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I don’t know, obviously not knowing the context hurts a bit, but it just seems to me as though I am all for defending the sanctity of the court but one week is.
Kathryn Rubino: Well yeah, I mean listen, we fundamentally have an over-criminalization problem in this country right? Like you know, there’s lots of ways in which we try to just feed our private industrial complex of criminalization and you know, it’s obviously problematic and this is only like, you know, miniscule aspect of that but —
Joe Patrice: I don’t think the local jail is going to be me, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: I was going to say, this is only a very small aspect of the criminalization problem, but I do think it speaks to sort of an American mindset of criminalization as the default as you know, things can be remedied by jail times.
Joe Patrice: The everythings in nail problem, as it were.
Kathryn Rubino: Right, right.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, yeah, I just yeah, one week it just seems like a lot, especially —
Kathryn Rubino: But as I said, my guess is, the attorney will not spend a week in jail when it’s all said and done. But you know, a judge is the ultimate arbiter of what happens in the courtroom and lawyers forget themselves at their own peril.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean look, and we’ve written about bad judges too, I mean I’ve written about judges who punched lawyers and so on. So it’s not like I’m only on their side here, but yeah, I just really feel like this is an inappropriate penalty for this. Not making light of the of the transgression, but.
Kathryn Rubino: Sure, you know, it’s, you know, tempers were high I supposed.
Joe Patrice: Yeah I guess. Well, and that was the conversation from another judge incident from last week which was in the eastern district up here. We had 30 minutes of silence as the judge and lawyer had a stare down over a fight.
Kathryn Rubino: What was this? I don’t remember.
Joe Patrice: So this was the — not Lois and Clark. The Smallville sex cult thing, you know, remember that?
Kathryn Rubino: Oh yes, yes, I mean, I watched that documentary, the NXIVM, yeah, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, yeah, whatever —
Kathryn Rubino: Or one of them, I think they were like three different documentary —
Joe Patrice: So it was that dude —
Joe Patrice: He’s in Arizona in prison but you know, there’s still stuff going on here, there was hearing about restitution.
Kathryn Rubino: It was upstate New York, right?
Joe Patrice: It was in eastern.
Kathryn Rubino: Eastern, yeah.
Joe Patrice: So they were having this hearing, did require coordinating to get him remotely you know, out of his cell and to the place, to like you know, there’s a lot of moving parts. The defense attorney’s mentor and friend had unfortunately, just passed. His funeral was that morning. The attorney asked for a delay of the hearing so he could attend the funeral. The judge said, no, which seems harsh, but the judge’s position on this was the funeral was in the morning. The hearing was in the afternoon, there’s a lot of moving parts that’s always being dumped on him on Sunday for like a Monday hearing and he was like, there’s no reason you can’t get from Queens to the courthouse in time for this hearing. Once the hearing began, the lawyer kind of continued to complain about it. The judge was upset actually at one point stood up and yelled. He stood up grabbed a box of tissues and yelled at the clerk. “Here, give him this so he can go cry about it”. The lawyer said something about how this was egregious behavior —
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, not wrong, not wrong.
Joe Patrice: And then they both stared each other for 30 minutes in silence, yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yikes town.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, eventually —
Kathryn Rubino: See that seems way worse.
Joe Patrice: Eventually, the stalemate was broken when the attorney apologized and they moved on, but yeah, it was look, I mean, I don’t know, like I see the judge — I agree with the judge’s point as far as the — as denying the request, you know, you would like to think that, you know, well, we, you know, we care about these sorts of issues, but I mean, the funerals in the morning, there was no reason that that should delay things. And, you know, if you’ve ever worked with the bureau prisons on getting somebody to a hearing it is — there’s a lot of moving parts and it is inconvenient to make any kind of changes to that train once it gets moving. And if there’s no immediate reason why you have to delay, you know, go forward with how its setup so I agreed with all that. I do think —
Kathryn Rubino: I’m not sure I do, but I am by nature, I’m much more sensitive person than you are, but sure okay —
Joe Patrice: I mean he did go to the funeral and he made it to the hearing on time —
Kathryn Rubino: Sure but obviously he’s not in a mindset to vigorously defend his client when he’s literally been mourning at that day.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I don’t know.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah because you don’t have emotions.
Joe Patrice: I guess but I mean look, I will say, I took the stance that I do think that the judge probably went too far.
Kathryn Rubino: He definitely, what do you probably, come on.
Joe Patrice: Probably went too far with the clean x-box.
Kathryn Rubino: Come on.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I thought that might be too mean, and that’s difficult for me to say I don’t like to say that things are ever too mean but that one, I thought maybe he could have been a little bit more sensitive but yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, at a bare minimum I would say that that is true. I mean, listen, I think the judge was wrong to deny it. I would have probably not done that, but at a certain point, you know, the decision is made, it is what it is, I don’t think, something it’s like a not a give me, it’s not like, you know, it’s not such an urgent situation that it’s an obvious answer. I think it is a quick sort of on the line one way or the other, but whatever the judge did, the judge made the decision but then, compounded it and makes the reflecting on the original decision makes it just worse, right? Because when you see that this is the kind of person, right, you know, who throws a box of tissues, at somebody who —
Joe Patrice: He didn’t throw it, he just held it up and then signaled for the clerk to go give it to him so he could cry about it.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay, this is not better, not better. The point is, somebody is willing to do that, it seems like the initial — it casts a powder on the original decision to deny the delay, don’t you think?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Anyway. Whatever the guy owes a bunch of restitution was ultimately have this all worked out because you know he ran a sex cult.
Kathryn Rubino: Well yeah, which is nothing to do with —
Joe Patrice: With the situation —
Kathryn Rubino: That is irrelevant.
Joe Patrice: I just want the listeners to understand like to bring this whole story full circle you know, I am telling stories here.
Kathryn Rubino: You’re painting a picture with your words.
Joe Patrice: I am. I’m trying to like get all the facts out there as you know, in a streamlined to process —
Kathryn Rubino: Streamline, that’s how you’re getting there, okay, okay. Let’s call it the streamline, I got it.
Joe Patrice: And so, speaking of streamlining. Let’s hear from our friends at Lexicon.
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Joe Patrice: The last thing I thought we should talk about and there are other firms who are having policies like this too, we don’t claim to be like the — we’re just going to focus on one, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t others that are in similar situations but Clifford Chance may announce, since we talked a lot about office re-openings but one wrinkle is that Clifford Chance says they will have their office open, working remotely, you know, some days still available but they’re the first firm as far as I can tell, that is going the full no, you have to have proof of vaccination if you’re going to walk-in into this office.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I think that other firms have said that their folks need to be vaccinated but perhaps haven’t gone that additional step of, you know, providing that documentation, kind of like honor system everyone has to have.
Joe Patrice: There a lot of, it’s recommended like —
Kathryn Rubino: There were some I think one I said required but there was no documentation, I think.
Joe Patrice: Okay.
Kathryn Rubino: But yes, yeah, I mean, I don’t have a problem with that at all. I think it’s great. I think that everyone should be doing that kind of stuff. I think that everyone should get vaccinated if there’s more incentives for people to get vaccinated, then we should do it, period. End of story.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, so by September 13, which is when they’re targeting for this, if you plan to get back to the office, you need to be prepared to give us proof by September 13.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I mean, I don’t have even a little bit of a problem of that first of all, because remote is a possibility as well, but also I imagine that, you know, with the system like this, if somebody has medical reasons for not getting the vaccine, there are obviously, you know, systems, and that’s the other thing, when there is actually a system, that means that you’re building in you know, exceptions to policy as part of it. But also there shouldn’t be you know, you feeling that like oh, I’m not really sure right now. Well, screw you, the Delta variant is very sure. So you’re going to be vaccinated not put the rest of us at risk.
Joe Patrice: And the firm is also saying that they have not put out there their written policy on it, but as part of this they announced that there would be to follow a policy for clients who want to come in to the office to having to do it all, which is a potential work around that some people might not be thinking of, but like, if you’re going to open office and clients want to come in, you know, you’ve got to worry about them too.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, yeah. And also, fundamentally lawyers are client-facing role, right? And so there is a real business advantage to making sure that your folks who are in client-facing roles are fully vaccinated right, and it’s not just about protecting your people who obviously, that’s part of it, but also protecting your clients if you want to make sure that you’re maintaining your best client relationships, making sure that you’re creating a safe space that they can come in and have meetings, you know, and do negotiations at your space in a fully safe way. This is what —
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean, that said, what clients going to the office at this point, do they represent Morgan Stanley, I don’t know.
Kathryn Rubino: And perhaps but my point is just that you’re still you want to have that available. There are definitely times that a client coming to face-to-face with their attorney for whatever purpose might be very valuable and you want to be able to say, yes, of course, come to our offices. Everyone in our office is fully vaccinated and that I think that there is a real marketing benefit to that too.
Joe Patrice: So one thing that got me was, you know, this being Clifford Chance and how other firms have not felt the comfortability or to go full bore like it made me wonder if being English firm helped whether, or not like being able to even though obviously, it’s the American offices who are making this announcement whether having a English leadership was the sort of thing where they were like we don’t have to pander to all the craziness over here in America. We can just get go ahead —
Kathryn Rubino: I’m sure that helps, I’m positive that helps. But I also think that, you know, of course, international firms of whatever variety of versus ones that only have American offices or ones that only have limited, you know, relationships with other offices in other countries, you know, all of that plays a role and how these policies come down in the level of documentation that they are comfortable asking for etcetera but you know, good for Clifford Chance you know, I think that more folks should do this.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And I do think you raise an interesting point about the Delta variant whether or not that’s going to have some impact on how firms feel about this. I think there might have been some wishful thinking that these all be handled by now.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, listen, I was as guilt as wishful thinking as anyone, I really was very hopeful that this would be —
that we were already in the end stages but you know, that your life finds a way I guess, you know and it is what it is and the Delta variant is real and it is being — people who are fully vaccinated are getting it, fortunately tend to not be particularly serious cases which I think is great, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t give it to their kids who can’t get vaccinated yet or other you know, folks who are otherwise vulnerable and that’s not okay, right? We need to be doing everything possible to make sure we have the vaccines. It is just stupidity, and stubbornness that is preventing us from defeating this now. Science got it right. Now, we just need people to catch up.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, with a little a field of the law firm offices but okay.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s incredibly frustrating and if you’re not frustrated, you’re not paying attention.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Oh wow. That was your like rhetorical flourish there, you were very proud of that.
Kathryn Rubino: I wasn’t particularly proud of it. I just think it’s incredibly obvious.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough.
Kathryn Rubino: What?
Joe Patrice: I don’t know.
Kathryn Rubino: Yes, I think that law firm should be able to and willing to require a vaccination before folks come back to the office.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, well, I guess by next week we’ll have some bar exam stories I assume.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, bar exam coming up.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Anyway cool, with all that, I think we’re done, you should be subscribe to the show so that you get all the episodes. You should be giving reviews, writing things down, giving stars so that the algorithm knows. hey, this is a legal podcast and more people can listen to it or even if you don’t listen to it for legal reasons, I don’t know why that’s true but if you’ve come just for the vanity plate discussions or something, you know, we’re here for that too. Yeah, we’re here for that too. You should be reading Above the Law. As always you should check out the other shows, Kathryn is the host of a podcast called The Jabot. I’m a participant in the legal tech week journalists roundtable, you know, you should be listening, the other offerings of the Legal Talk Network. You should be following us on social media. I’m @josephpatrice, she’s at kathryn1, the numeral one, she holds up a finger.
Kathryn Rubino: Not the finger you think.
Joe Patrice: But not that one, not the one you would expected based on how the show went. And with all of that said, thanks to —
Kathryn Rubino: Peace.
Joe Patrice: No.
Kathryn Rubino: What?
Joe Patrice: Why do you keep trying to like —
Kathryn Rubino: Rush you?
Joe Patrice: Yes.
Kathryn Rubino: You’re being hindering.
Joe Patrice: I’m going through our boiler — this is what we do every week, how is you don’t know how this goes?
Kathryn Rubino: That’s it, that’s it. It feels longer, I feel you’re taking your time.
Kathryn Rubino: Anyway, now, you are —
Joe Patrice: Sponsored by Nota, Powered by M&T Bank and Lexicon and with all of that said, we’re now done.
Kathryn Rubino: Peace.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.