The Greatest Legal Research Hack

Episode Notes

Transcript

[Music]

Joe Patrice:  Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer I’m Joe Patrice that’s Kathryn Rubino. We’re with Above The Law, it’s a little website you’ve probably been reading for a while.

Kathryn Rubino:  Hopefully.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, hopefully anyway, we’re here to talk about some of the big legal stories of the week but first, how have you been?

Kathryn Rubino:   Good. I feel like I had quite the weekend, a lot of parties. There were a soccer game people cared a lot about and I felt like it was real pre-pandemic times.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, yeah it did kind of seem like — 

Kathryn Rubino:  I went to a bar, I did not wear a mask while I was there, it was crazy. Fully vaccinated, it’s okay. 

Joe Patrice:  Well right, but yeah. No, no it’s — 

Kathryn Rubino:  It’s still liked a thing. You know, like I definitely had the mask with me. I was like “Oh you know, do I go from my seat where I’m eating and drinking and can I walk to the bathroom without a mask on? Like, what do I do?” It feels awkward but you know, I soldiered through.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I mean but that is the advantage of being in one of the areas of the country that thankfully, has a fairly high instance of vaccination. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, and New York is doing all right as these things go.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, it looks like I’m just scrolling through the other day looks like Missouri and Arkansas are real disasters. 

Kathryn Rubino:  That’s unfortunate. Immunocompromised should come to New York.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  You’ll fare better.

Joe Patrice:  If you go to Vermont, it looks like — I’m scrolling here that actually looks like the best place to be if you’re worried. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, I mean it’s unfortunate for the folks for whom the vaccine doesn’t seem to be working as well. Yeah, if you’re living in places where the vaccination rate is less than 30%, you’re not going to have a good time.

Joe Patrice:   Yeah. Well, so I guess we can get right into it. The first story that I have of the day was a fairly big story on our site. A lot of people may have seen it from other media outlets but obviously a quirk of it fit the Above the Law.

Kathryn Rubino:  Genre.

Joe Patrice:  It was within our idiom. There was a motion filed in the so-called “kraken cases” the various — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Those are still going on?

Joe Patrice:  Actually, as we speak, they’re in a sanctioning hearing. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Sure, let’s hope.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, it’s been a thing but there was a motion filed by one of the local counsels, who was working with them, who now actually has her own lawyer. But her own lawyer didn’t file this, she filed it and you know, there were a lot of things in this fairly comical filing but the one that really hit. 

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean it would be funny if it wasn’t so awful for the country, right? 

Joe Patrice:  The one that really hit home for all of us was plaintiff’s attorney’s speech and their right to petition government for redress of grievances is a first amendment right protected by a line of U.S. Supreme Court cases. Too numerous to mention and any attempt to string site them here would be insulting to all involved. I guess that’s — 

Kathryn Rubino:  — who needs her?

Joe Patrice:  That’s a hack for legal writing that I hadn’t run across. 

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean, that’s a thing like this is an actual document filed in court by an actual lawyer. And if you tried to get away with that in law school, it would not go well for you.

Joe Patrice:   No, and it’s comically bad.

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I don’t know, other folks — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Does it make you rethink your stance on the bar exam? 

Joe Patrice:  See, no. That’s the thing, right? It actually makes me double down on my thoughts on the bar exam because we’re talking about a person who has passed the bar. So, it’s clear that there’s — 

Kathryn Rubino:  The bar exam actually does no gatekeeping is what this means?

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. That’s my take.

Kathryn Rubino:  That’s a fair point, that’s a fair point. 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I believe the profession needs gatekeeping. I think that a one-shot doctrinal(ph) test at the very beginning of your career is not where that is. And this evidence filing proves that. 

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean, okay. I don’t know if we have many non-lawyers listening to the show. I probably doubt it but The Bluebook and Citations are kind of a fundamental element of the whole indoctrination process of thinking like a lawyer, right? 

Joe Patrice:  Well, having — I mean about the entire common law system, kind of stands on the principle that when you say something, you cite some precedent. Where a court has said that was true in the past.

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah.

Joe Patrice:  I mean, Brad Heath at Reuters tweeted about this story and was just like, this is what the purpose of an EG site, which is true. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yes, we get the concept that there may be a lot of cases and we have a way to deal with that.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I actually — I retorted to that one that it was actually much more — see generally Supreme Court shrug emoji was the way it really was.

Kathryn Rubino:  That’s a great line.

Joe Patrice:  I mean it was — I spent a good deal of time trying to figure out what the joke there was.

(00:05:02)

Kathryn Rubino:  Were there runners up?

Joe Patrice:  Well yeah, I had like, at one point that line was written as see generally One U.S. One(Ph) through whatever the current number is. Yeah, I don’t understand how somebody thinks they can get away with this. I don’t understand, especially when you’re already staring down the barrel of sanctions here. It’s like, why put out there something that just makes it seem more like you’re abusing the process and not taking it — 

Kathryn Rubino:  So, you’re just making it up as you go along. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  This does not help your position.

Joe Patrice:  It’s performatively a disaster if you’re trying to claim that your serious lawyer is doing serious things. I mean, this lawyer had a history in this case too. Like the first thing and we wrote about her when this happened. The first thing she filed in this case was a bunch of stuff about how you can’t apply Rule 11 and put sanctions on these people. Because they didn’t really sign anything, the argument being — 

Kathryn Rubino:  I don’t think that’s accurate.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. Their argument was well, these lawyers didn’t sign anything which putting aside that they had in fact signed these things. That’s the part like you can have an argument about lawyers who are tangentially evolved with the case should they be liable. And the answer is actually sure, yes. 

But even if you didn’t say that, they did in fact sign all this stuff. And then the way she made up for it was to cite a bunch of cases about how we only care if people have actually physically signed it with ink. But all of those cases — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Predate the internet.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. Right, which is why they said things like that

Kathryn Rubino:  So, it’s that she’s familiar with the concept of citations but it hasn’t gone well for her?

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I feel like this was — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Like red flags.

Joe Patrice:  she got burned once and this time — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, so she’s like CEG everything. 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, so maybe that’s what’s happening here. Yeah, no.

(Voice Overlap)

Kathryn Rubino:  That’s got to be it.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, it’s — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Speaking of citations is just kind of her, a random tidbit but I heard we filled up the Fed Third and now we’re on to F4.

Joe Patrice:  Oh yeah, do we have like a — yeah, there we go. Hooray! We filled up we filled up the federal reporter(ph).

Kathryn Rubino:  Now we’re onto the fourth. 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, we should have had a party when that happened. Yeah, so we filled that up, that’s exciting.

Kathryn Rubino:  But I mean, you go from the 3D to fourth, which is going to be different. You can’t just like change out the number, right? Because the suffix changes.

Joe Patrice:  Oh, I see what you mean. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, I don’t know. It’s just a thing, a weird quirk of English, I suppose.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, it’s one of those things that you — one of those —

Kathryn Rubino:  Little administrative tasks?

Joe Patrice:  No, I was going to say it’s like one of those little dumb things that you won’t learn when you go to law school. But you go to, to be a lawyer, not an accountant. Take advantage of Nota, a no-cost IOLTA management tool that helps solo and small law firms track client funds down to the penny. Enjoy peace of mind with one-click reconciliation, automated transaction alerts and real-time bank data, visit trustnota.com/legal to learn more terms and conditions may apply. 

But I appreciate it that you had a theory on how it could link to, that’s fair. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, I was trying.

Joe Patrice:  No, I mean I appreciate you stepping up on the ad front. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Don’t come to expect that, that is firmly your responsibility. Speaking of people who — I don’t know, things you learn in law school, it seemed like President Trump was in need of some lawyering. 

Joe Patrice:  Trump does need some lawyers. He has actual issues going on that could be problematic for him. He doesn’t seem to like, at least according to these reports out there that he doesn’t seem to like his current lawyers.

Kathryn Rubino:  Well, he has a somewhat untenable legal position.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, yeah, fair enough. 

Kathryn Rubino:  That’ll go hand-in-hand for a while, I imagine.

Joe Patrice:  But yes, in a new book, there are allegations that for over the last run while complaining to anyone who will stand near him long enough that he has the worst lawyers and hates Rudy and all this. That he went about trying to find new lawyers by just asking random people at the hotel, if they have — 

Kathryn Rubino:  You got a lawyer? You got a good lawyer? You got a good lawyer? Yeah, I mean look, it’s a bunch of rich people, rich people have lawyers, that’s a thing. I feel like if he was asking about somebody to help him file a security offering or something like that, he might have gotten better. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Sure.

Joe Patrice:  Criminal lawyers, I mean one would hope that the rich people who hang out at Mar-A-Lago don’t have much need of criminal attorneys but.

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean now who’s being naive Joe.

Joe Patrice:  I mean well now that Epstein’s gone.

Kathryn Rubino:  Oh, yeah, you did that.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  You did that, you did that.

Joe Patrice:  But again, you just got me thinking about — 

Kathryn Rubino:  At least he was asking — I’m sorry, for a lawyer for — is this like for his election law suits? Or is this has been the Trump organization legal trouble that he’s in?

(00:10:02)

Joe Patrice:  This is the Trump organization legal trouble, this advanced(ph) stuff happening in New York.

Kathryn Rubino:  Gotcha, well because there’s a lot of reasons he may be searching.

Joe Patrice:  Right. But no, this was for criminal lawyers to help him out in that sort of situation. Which you know, “criminal defense lawyers” I shouldn’t say “criminal lawyers” that makes it sound like — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Like they’re actually like criminal — 

Joe Patrice:  Maybe where he ends up before this is all over with his hiring process. But it did get me thinking though about the hiring process. How do people go about finding lawyers? I mean obviously, there’s the big firm world in which we’ve always done Goldman Sachs work. But beyond that, how do people find things? Like I remember, when we were, back in the day there was Martindale-Hubbell had stuff and obviously that’s still around but it’s now been taken over by another entity. There’s AVO.

Kathryn Rubino:  Right.

Joe Patrice:  Like all of these sorts of places but is that where people are going to find folks? Are people using yellow pages? How does the average person find a lawyer out there that they want to go with? Asking for a former president. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Speaking of Trump’s legal trouble, there was also a super cut that might as touched one of the political super PACs — 

Joe Patrice:  Oh yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  Did on trump where it was a bunch of clips of him saying how well he knew the Tax Code and you will never find a president who knows the Tax Code as well as I do. I’m the smartest tax person ever. Cut next to his now — that there’s potential tax problems with the trump organization. Does anybody even understand the Tax Code? This is entirely too difficult for anybody to understand.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, it’s really bad and it is very likely that his past claims of how much he knows about the Tax Code will be used against him when he tries to feign ignorance down the road. Even though ignorance probably was what was true in the first instance and it was all just puffery. But again, that’s probably where that goes 

Kathryn Rubino:  And it wasn’t like a one-off, it’s like a solid several minutes of him just saying how great he is at taxing and now he’s now — what do you know, he has a different story now that there’s actual consequences that are potential.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, I know and still — I just was very — how do you find somebody? How do you work with? I feel like — 

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean isn’t it still mostly like recommendations and referrals? 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. I mean I would think so. But I mean, is it from the random folks who are at the 19th hole afterwards or like because as it appears to be how he’s approaching this process. I would feel and obviously, Rudy as well as people like Sidney Powell would fall under this recommendation. So maybe swinging a miss a couple of times there. So maybe this isn’t the best recommendation but given the concerns that he’s now facing. It seems as though what I would do is do an immediate search of people who have left the U.S. attorney’s office to go into private practice recently and start calling them but I guess —

Kathryn Rubino:  Revolving(ph) door be damned.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, well right. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Well, I mean if you need it, that is why it flourishes, right? 

Joe Patrice:  I mean if somebody with the experience in that area, you can do it. But that said again, it’s not really worked out for his other choices. So maybe, I’m wrong about.

Kathryn Rubino:  At least they have the pedigree that makes you think that they might. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:  This is not on our agenda but quick aside when it comes to pedigree when back in the 90’s one of the most — more respected constitutional law scholars out there was Jonathan Turley and now, oh boy.

Kathryn Rubino:  For our listeners who may not know what you’re sub-tweeting right here, why don’t you do a little bit of — 

(Voice Overlap)

Joe Patrice:  — I mean that’s what he did but the turn dog put an article in the hill attacking Above the Law and me specifically. As well as Ellie the former co-host of this show. Yeah, and then —

Kathryn Rubino:  About what?

Joe Patrice:  Oh, just because we’re awful social justice caring people.

Kathryn Rubino:  So, it wasn’t like a particular?

Joe Patrice:  Oh, it was in relations to the Duke Law School story, where there’s a journal at Duke that students had said they were uncomfortable printing an article from a controversial professor whose own — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Not a law successor though, right?

Joe Patrice:  Not a law professor, her own campus has had a lot of issues with her. Her academic field has written open letters decrying her work. So, the students did not feel good about this. Did not like their names being on that masthead. The school — the faculty decided they were going to go forward with it anyway and the students started resigning.

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean that seems like logical and natural consequence to those set of circumstances.

Joe Patrice:  Exactly, I wrote about this because I thought it bears being highlighted what’s going on. This kind of we look at students whether they’re de jure in charge of a journal or de facto in charge. We look to them to do all this free labor in legal academia and we just —

Kathryn Rubino:  So, you get a little entry on your resume and we justify it with “You know, you’re a real professional and we trust your judgment yada, yada, yada.” And then when rubber meets road, it is just to ignore them. And I thought that was problematic and I wanted to highlight this issue. Nothing much more than that. 

(00:15:10)

I got some dumb attacks from some people about like “Well actually, I think the faculty board does have power here” and I’m like maybe.

Kathryn Rubino:  Cool, that only makes it worse.

Joe Patrice:  Kind of irrelevant and then Turles(ph) decided to go off on me and the hill. It’s Turles(ph) a fairly embarrassing article on his part, then he decided to tweet about it but not at me just like put my name places which I didn’t see because I’m like some narcissists in the world. I don’t have a thing set up to see my name every time it happens. So, I actually didn’t learn about this until well after the fact but yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  Well, we have a new social media manager.

Joe Patrice:  We do, yes.

Kathryn Rubino:  Maybe that’s something we can put on.

Joe Patrice:  Maybe I should be doing that search, I don’t know. No, I just remembered once I said something randomly about a person like — within the context of news story, I wasn’t necessarily even trying to blast them. I just like — they were a character in a news story and they immediately like freaked out and yelled at me and whatever. I was like “how would they even know?” and I was like “Oh, they just have alerts set up for every time their name is said” which is, I just don’t care that much.

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean, I do hear what you’re saying and I don’t have one set up for my name. So, I get it but as folks who work in the media, we probably should. 

Joe Patrice:  Maybe yeah, well — we were talking law professors here. But yes, I get you.

Kathryn Rubino:  Sure, I’m not saying — 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, you’re right. We probably should.

Kathryn Rubino:  We — or at least have somebody, you know?

Joe Patrice:  Monitoring it. 

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah. Somebody should be taking — you could ignore these; you have to pay attention to those kinds of situation. 

Joe Patrice:  I mean, we should figure out how we’re going to kind of bureaucratically do that. 

Kathryn Rubino:  How the administration of it all will work?

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, like if we wanted to streamline how we wanted to do these administrative tasks, yeah. So actually, on that note, it’s interesting you should mention that, let’s hear what Lexicon has to say.

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Joe Patrice:  All right. 

Kathryn Rubino:  See, we eventually got the — 

Joe Patrice:  Yeah, no, no, no, it was great. I mean — 

Kathryn Rubino:  I don’t credit for this? What?

Joe Patrice:  No, I was just going to say that the audience is getting exactly what they pay for this podcast for its professionalism. So, you wrote about TV shows of sorts?

Kathryn Rubino:  You know, you can’t always write about deep legal concepts. Sometimes, you need a bit of a break. But no, I’ve recently been watching past seasons of MTV’s The Challenge, do you remember that show? Do you still watch it?

Joe Patrice:  No, it’s where road rules people and real-world people?

Kathryn Rubino:  That was how it started. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:  Okay. Is Road Rules still around?

Kathryn Rubino:  Absolutely not.

Joe Patrice:  That’s too bad, I kind of enjoyed the — aspect of it but go on. 

Kathryn Rubino:  It was fun and well, there are a lot of — kind of nostalgic based reboot. There’s challenge all-stars also that’s available currently on Paramount Plus that was the godfather of which is Mark Long who was on the first season of Road Rules. Well, he actually made his first MTV appearance on an episode of the real world because in season three when Puck got voted out of the house, they actually interviewed three different people and Mark was one of the potential people that might have moved in. They decided on Joe instead but then the producers apparently liked Mark so much the amounts of casting him on the first season of Road Rules. 

Joe Patrice:  Is he a lawyer or something? 

Kathryn Rubino:  No.

Joe Patrice:  So, there is no connection or relevance to any of that? 

Kathryn Rubino:  I just enjoyed The Challenge. No but so I have been — 

Joe Patrice:  See, that’s a place where you could have just inserted like — see generally other stuff and not given me all the detail, like that lawyer.

Kathryn Rubino:  I saw the reference you are making but sometimes, you just have to listen. A few times is not about you talking at me. The point was, I was watching one of the seasons of The Challenge:  Rivals which is an epic season fans of the show generally are very familiar with it. The concept is great, right you got one partner and it was the person that you have beef with, right? Whether it be like online beef, whether it be you’d fought in previous seasons. 

In one instance, maybe you took a swing at somebody, that also — since he was partnered with Adam King and that was part of their previous drama despite the fact that they had actually started on their first season together because they were both on The Real World:  Paris. Anyway, there’s a lot of detail, so anyway the girl’s winner was Paula Walnuts and Evelyn Smith. Ev was always a great person on the show’s multi-time champion but after the rivals, she just stopped appearing on the show. 

(00:20:10)

I wondered about that and used a little — Google skills to find out she actually went to a law school.

Joe Patrice:  Nice.

Kathryn Rubino:  Not just any law school, Harvard Law which is you know?

Joe Patrice:  I’ve heard of them. They’re ranked — right there with Washington University in St. Louis — 

Kathryn Rubino:  On our rankings, maybe it’s a lot more about our rankings than anything else. Anyway, so she’d gone to a law school, Harvard Law School in the mid — I think 2013 or so. Then graduated, worked for human rights campaigns in Cambodia, I believe. And then has spent a lot of time working on democratic party clauses. Up Maine, she’s been trying to get folks elected. Also worked on the Kirsten Gillibrand Campaign. Worked then on the (00:20:54) campaign and now is appointed to a political appointee position as a special assistant in the USAID office.

Joe Patrice:  Oh wow, awesome.

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, although Mark Long that I mentioned earlier, he’s sort of as I said the coordinator of this All Stars season and apparently, he has spoken to Ev about potentially coming back for All Stars and she hasn’t said no. But apparently over 100 former challengers have expressed interest in coming back for an All Star season. Which is both very exciting and I can’t wait for them to develop these new seasons, it’s very — it’s a good time.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:  I mean it’s the perfect moment to do this kind of nostalgia-based stuff with everyone being home for the pandemic and using all these streaming services and whatnot. So, I got myself some paramount plus and which is how you can watch the All Stars. It’s really been quite the joy.

Joe Patrice:  Nice, I mean hey, you can’t be an online beef with people forever like I’ve been doing. Yeah, — no that that sounds great, it does show that there’s cool stuff you can do with law degrees if you stick with it, I suppose

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah, and you know, not everybody on reality television shows continues just in that world. Although it can be lucrative for some folks. You can also — you can turn around and go to Harvard Law School.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. No, awesome. 

Kathryn Rubino:  But it was really fun, I hadn’t realized that — and also, how did Above the Law miss talking about the fact that she graduated from Harvard Law School.

Joe Patrice:  Well, this is a — I was going to say this is an obscure show that only — you really follow. But I’m actually looking and apparently, it’s the number one rated cable show. So, I guess I’m wrong about that. I mean it’s the number one rated non-news cable show I should say. 

Kathryn Rubino:  That’s pretty good. I mean for folks who have watched the show throughout the years, you can kind of tell how much more popular it’s gotten because the prize money keeps going up.

Joe Patrice:  Yeah. How much are they get now?

Kathryn Rubino:  It’s like a million dollars. It’s not nothing, it’s not nothing and I mean it started out it’s like you win $10,000 bucks. And it’s kind of has evolved to million-dollar prizes. Not every season, kind of depends on the season but you know, it’s a significantly larger prize pool than when the show first started when it was like “Good job, you get a video game for winning this today’s challenge” which was a very sponsorship-based. I think one prize was like, you had a lifetime supplies of burgers from Burger King or whoppers, I think that was true. I think Jerrell(ph) won it,

Joe Patrice:  Nice. Okay, well, cool. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s basically everything we have raises continue on abound — 

Kathryn Rubino:  Like yeah, so many. But now we’re kind of getting into that second tier of folks who are doing the raises(ph) which are they match that first-year number that 205 which is great. And the reason why matching that first-year salary is so important for those who may not be following the minutiae is that that’s what gets published by — I mean you look and say “Oh who’s on what scale? Oh give 205 to first-year associates.” That sounds like you’re making the same amount of money as everybody but there are differences. There’s this thing called “compression” where after that first — maybe second year they start slendering down the amount of raises.

So that by the time you’re maybe a fourth or fifth or even higher, you’re making significantly less than peers at other firms. When you were perhaps starting out your career and you’re only looking — because that first-year numbers, what gets published by a lot of these organizations and that maybe all folks pay attention to. When they are interviewing at a law school and not necessarily thinking about the fact that if they stay at a place for more than a couple years, they’ll actually be significantly behind their peer group. And potentially, they might have had offers from other places that they could have been making market salary. So, I think that publishing and making sure that you’re aware which firms are engaged in compression of the salary scale versus pure matches of that salary scale is super, super important. And also, part of the what’s what is fueling this hot lateral market that we’re seeing at the moment.

Joe Patrice:  Absolutely and that’s — yeah, that’s pretty much it unless you got something else?

(00:25:05)

Kathryn Rubino:  No that’s most — I mostly wrote about the challenge and raises(ph) last week. 

Joe Patrice:  Fair enough, thanks everybody for listening, you should be subscribed to the show, give it reviews that really helps shows like engagement and means that we show up when people search for law. And then more people can hear it and that’s awesome. You should be reading Above the Law as always for all of the minute by minute of this kind of gossipy thing we call law. You should check out The Jabot which is Kathryn’s other podcast. You can check out the Legal Tech Week Journalists Roundtable which is the other show that I — 

Kathryn Rubino:  We pretty much have heard the name of it.

Joe Patrice:  Exciting legal tech stuff, yeah, I do, thanks. For exciting legal tech developments and there are some new products this week and I’m also, I’m sure we’ll be talking about that later in the week. You should check out the other shows of the Legal Talk Network. You should be following us on social media; I’m @josephpatrice she’s @kathryn1, numeral one. Yeah, you’d have to add us because I don’t see it when you just type my name because I don’t have a search set up. Thanks to Nota powered by M&T Bank and lexicon for sponsoring the show and I believe with all of that done.

Kathryn Rubino:  Peace.

Joe Patrice:  We’re here, yeah. So keep us in the loop if any legal news happens out there. Bye.

[Music]

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