Springtime For Biglaw Bonuses

Above the Law -Thinking Like a Lawyer

Springtime For Biglaw Bonuses

3/24/2021

[Music]

Joe Patrice: Hey! Welcome to another episode of Thinking Like a Lawyer.

Kathryn Rubino: Hey!

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: I’m trying not to interrupt you in your first sentence.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Now, this is just going to be a thing from now on, isn’t it?

Kathryn Rubino: I mean, annoying you gives me great joy.

Joe Patrice: This is Joe Patrice from Above the Law and that  was Kathryn Rubino. We’re coming to you again from the middle of March madness I suppose.

Kathryn Rubino: That’s true.

Joe Patrice: A happy March.

Kathryn Rubino: Happy March!

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: It is exciting that we actually get basketball games this year.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: You know and the NCAA has put their misogyny on display and social media has corrected it which is nice to see.

Joe Patrice: Now, that that certainly happened. We also had–

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. For those who aren’t following, there was a whole incident during the — both the men’s and the women’s March madness tournaments happen about the same time and the weight room for the men was like quadruple, if not more times the size of the one for the women and one of the Oregon players put it on social media and it blew up because it was absurd and also like a bunch of other inequities like the food was different, the women’s team didn’t have access to PCR COVID testing which seems to me like the biggest problem and at least some of those things have been worked out like I think the weight room kind of got the biggest, you know, it was the splashiest. You could physically see the difference between the two, so it was really easy to get mad about and at least that one’s been fixed so far. We’ll see if you know, hopefully, all the issues get fixed.

Joe Patrice: Speaking of brackets, if all of you out there haven’t checked out Above the Law, yet we’re running from this week and going into the next few, but this week is the first round. We’re running the first round of our own little bracket tournament which is the most epic Zoom fails of the last year.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, so I was actually chatting about our bracket with some folks and everybody’s immediate reaction is Cat lawyer’s going win. Cat lawyer’s going to win.

Joe Patrice: I think that is the one seed, that’s fair.

Kathryn Rubino: And I was like, my initial reaction every time someone says that to me is, uh, Jeffrey Toobin is the thing.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. I think that Jeffrey — cat lawyer is definitely the one seed, it’s the thing, but I think there’s a recency bias there.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Patrice: I think we’ve all forgotten that the most well-known legal commentator in the country lost his job over a Zoom fail, so I feel like that — when people start really putting them together and voting because the voting is open for all of you who want to put in your two cents there, once the voting’s all said and done, I feel as though cat lawyer’s not going to be champ, but we’ll see.

Kathryn Rubino: So yeah, I mean, I think the fact that Jeffrey Toobin lost his job over it also kind of pushes it to a different level, but that’s — and it’s also so much more than just a Zoom, I mean it was obviously a Zoom fail, right? But it’s so much more than just like our virtual world how crazy, you know, I mean he was jacking off like during a work call that wasn’t — it wasn’t a great look.

Joe Patrice:  It was not and while that’s important, I also think that the Supreme Court kicking off oral arguments with one of the justices just going to the bathroom in the middle of it seems as though that’s also something that is worth remembering that we all kind of forgot because it happened so early in the process.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, and there was — I think you had written about a couple of folks having sex on camera?

Joe Patrice: Yes, that has happened a few times.

Kathryn Rubino: Yes.

Joe Patrice: Those are always good ones. Yeah, I think it’s tough competition who’s going to be the most epic fail.

Kathryn Rubino: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If they Judge Middleton bracket–

Joe Patrice: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there’s a pod of just two Zoom fails that happened to the same judge within a month, so.

Kathryn Rubino: So, I’ve been thinking a lot about that sort of written about those and for those who may not have been remembering two different cases, one was a defendant who was facing charges about driving with a suspended license and appeared in Zoom court from the front seat, driver’s seat of a car and the judge did not take kindly to the — certainly, it looked as if that person had driven there. He said he hadn’t, whatever. And then the other one was a defendant who was facing charges for assault and had a no contact order with the victim and actually appeared from the victim’s house. So, both the victim and the perpetrator were in the same house at the time and the eagle-eyed prosecutor noticed and sent police to the door and the defendant was arrested, bail revoked, et cetera. And so, they’re both in the same judge, same prosecutor even in the cases and you know, my initial take was like unluckiest courtroom.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: You know, because it is. But part of it I think is also because Judge Middleton posts it on his personal page. He post the Zoom recordings, he makes them public because you know, they are public proceedings, et cetera. But I have to imagine it’s not just that his courtroom is cursed.

(00:05:02)

I think that there’s probably millions, well maybe not millions, but a whole bunch of these kinds of incidents around courtrooms, around the country, but you know, because they are not publicized or you know, local media isn’t tuned into it as much, they’re just not getting kind of picked up and going viral in the same way, but I have to imagine there are other problems that are happening in other places that we’re just not privy to.

Joe Patrice: That’s fair point. Well anyway, everyone should check that out, put your votes in and then I think we’re voting through Thursday and then we’ll find out who won the first round and put out another bracket and vote on that, yeah. So, anyway, right now though, I think we’re going to check in with one of our sponsors, with Lexicon, so let’s hear from them and then we’ll come back and talk

some law schools.

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Joe Patrice: So, we’re back. We are entering the fun part of the year where U.S news and world report puts out their ranking of law schools. The U.S. News world report despite its name. Back in the day, it like wrote about —

Kathryn Rubino: Sure.

Joe Patrice: U.S. news and the world. Now, it just ranks things. So, but that’s –

Kathryn Rubino: Using world ranking company.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, exactly. But their annual rankings of law schools are coming out. We expect to be hearing what those are in the next week or so and before we get started though, we’ve got some breaking news like I need one — that’s the sound effect I need like —

Kathryn Rubino: Tattarantatan.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, yeah. So, some breaking news which is that the formula has changed.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: So—

Kathryn Rubino: They’re looking at outputs, hmm.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Sounds familiar.

Joe Patrice: So, and for those who don’t know the Above the Law power rankings of law schools also exist, we only rank the top 50, but what we do is we took a different path than U.S news has for years. U.S. News has always spent a lot of its time and rankings by saying, “Oh, you know, we see that the GPAs of the people coming in are these which means it’s a better school because better GPAs and better LSAT scores and more library books.” Literally one of their factors.

Kathryn Rubino: I think that actually the library how much that counts has actually gone up.

Joe Patrice: Oh really.

Kathryn Rubino: I think that’s another one. There’s something about the library.

Joe Patrice: They fiddle with it a lot.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, they fiddle with it, yeah.

Joe Patrice: But the Above the Law rankings which were created as a counter to that flipped the script and tried to put more of the emphasis on the outcomes of law school, not were you getting smart folks in, but when they were coming out, where were they working, how much were they making, how much debt were they carrying like what clerkship opportunities were they getting to give you a sense of if you really think of a professional school as something helping you get a profession.

Kathryn Rubino: Right.

Joe Patrice: You should be concerned about what comes out of the back end and what’s the value of the school.

Kathryn Rubino: And ALM does their own ranking where they do the go-to things —

the go-to law schools, but that I believe only looks at folks who get placed in big law jobs, right? So, it actually hurts a school’s go-to ranking if they put a ton of folks in clerkships which seems –-

Joe Patrice: Right, yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: –which you know, if you care about prestige and you care about like sort of the image of the school putting folks in federal clerkships is a great thing.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, one knock of it people have on our rankings is that it has a fairly high percentage for those clerkships, but the reason we do that of course is that otherwise, those people are uncounted and something of a proxy for the fact that those folks are going to come out the back end and get higher jobs.

Kathryn Rubino: Make more money, yeah, because lots of big law firms, well, also first of all, I mean, let’s be clear. Big law is not the only way to be a successful lawyer.

Joe Patrice: Of course, yeah. No, they can be law professors, they can be —

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah and there are other jobs that have as much, if not more meaning to society and making great kind of contributions to the world, right?

Joe Patrice: Mm-hmm.

Kathryn Rubino: But big law does very much help you service those loans, so.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: My point was just that folks who have clerkships often have opportunities not only to get hired by big law firms, but to get bonuses from big law firms as well in order to kind of encourage those who have clerkships to attend those big law firms.

Joe Patrice: Sure. And that will be something we talk about eventually too. So these rankings they have a new change in them. We’ve learned that they’re not going to be limited to the incoming stuff that they always have been. They’re going to take a page from us at Above the Law’s rankings and have an actual output marker.

Kathryn Rubino: So, they don’t characterize it quite that way, but we do.

Joe Patrice: Yes. So now, the debt loads.

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So, the comparative debt loads that people are carrying coming out of schools is going to factor into the equation which we don’t know exactly how this is going to impact the rankings, but we have reason to believe it’s going to cause at least — at least some serious movement at the top because there’s going to maybe not the tippy top, but of the Classic T14 number which we always use because historically, with one real exception, the same 14 schools are consistently the top ones in those rankings, but it’s very private school heavy with only you know, Berkeley and Michigan and like, yeah, the few schools that do crack in there, but now with an explanation of debt, where you know, state schools are going to be better for that one wonders if some of the private schools, especially in that 12, 13, 14, 15 kind of run might get overtaken by some of these solid public schools that are sitting at 16, 17, 18, 19 historically.

Kathryn Rubino: And it’s interesting though too because I was just a second ago a little bit critical of focusing just on rankings that only care about big law placements, but when you’re only looking at one output vector right, which is the debt load which is obviously very important, but you know, it’s very different if you have a large debt load, but you’re put in a position where you can manage that debt load versus having a similar debt load or even a little bit less, but not having access to those same opportunities that allow you to service that loan and only looking at one vector of output may skew the results in weird ways too, but it’ll be interesting to see.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s an interesting change of philosophy for them.

Kathryn Rubino: And the two of us especially graduates of New York City law schools, Colombia myself, you went to NYU, you know, it’s obviously going to law school in New York City costs more than going to law school in New Haven.

Joe Patrice: Yeah and I think that it’s going to have an effect on both of our schools, so our top schools have historically been ranked in the top six, but you know, is this debt going to move us and let somebody slip ahead.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah and again, my guess without kind of having access to the information quite yet is that I mean, listen, U.S. news is generally a fairly like lower c conservative state kind of organization if there are adding a new vector into their rankings. I can’t imagine it changes so much, right?

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: You know, it wasn’t Stanford, Yale and Harvard at the very top followed by CCN. I think that they might question whether or not they’re adding the right things into the equation.

Joe Patrice: I mean, it’s certainly fair.

Kathryn Rubino: So, I think that there will be some movement. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have kind of added it, but I think it might be like one or two places here or there, maybe three, but like I can’t imagine, you know, I think that that Yale, Harvard and Stanford are still going to be at the top.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, we will stay tuned for that, but it’s an interesting development that we just got this new this new thing, so it’s leading us to do some speculation.

Kathryn Rubino: Absolutely.

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Kathryn Rubino: Well, there was a seam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you did your

Job.

Joe Patrice: I mean, it had to be seamless like you actually spoke in the middle of the first line of it, like I had I had lured you in. I got you.

Kathryn Rubino: I was knowingly playing your game.

Joe Patrice:  So, you mentioned bonuses for big law firms.

Kathryn Rubino: I mean, I was talking about clerkship bonuses, yes.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, but let’s talk about bonuses because we have some exciting news for the legal market. Yeah, no.

[Music]

There we go. Yeah, that’s a new one, yeah. All right, so yeah, so we have some new bonus news.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, we do. So, on Friday, last week, Willkie Farr announced a second round of COVID appreciation bonuses, spring bonuses. They’re in the same scale as sort of the ones that start in the fall towards the end of the year of 2020 that you’ll remember started it at 7500 and topped out for senior associates at 40,000, just quite lovely. And you know, we’ve talked a lot on this podcast on Above the Law generally that as bad as corona has been for the world, many law firms have thrived.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: And so kind of in recognition of that and the fact that it’s just harder to do your job in the middle of a freaking pandemic, big law firms were kind of sharing the wealth with their associate base.

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And so on Friday, Willkie announced a second round of bonuses. They’re a little bit different in the sense that they’ll be given out in two different dates. I think it’s June and September and folks have to be employed by the firm in both June and September to be eligible to get the money, but still, very nice and they were clear in their announcement that this will be in addition to the typical end-of-year bonuses. And so, you know, great. Extra money is great. It’s super wonderful, whatever.

Joe Patrice: Yeah and that seems like that would be a great thing and be kind of the end of the story, but then—

Kathryn Rubino: It is not.

Joe Patrice: But then what happened?

Kathryn Rubino: Davis Polk(ph). They go – yeah, they came over the top. If you’ll

recall, again, in the fall of 2020, Cooley was actually the first firm to announce COVID appreciation bonuses, but they topped out at 7500 and you’ll remember like two seconds ago I said how they started at 7500. That’s because of Davis Polk. After Cooley put out their very nice and thoughtful bonuses, Davis poke was

like uh uh uh, here you go and kind of started junior associate paydays where the Cooley bonuses had topped out. And so they kind of created this new standard and that was that 7500 to 40,000 scale and eventually, the biggest law firms including Cooley met this scale. Great! Awesome! So today this morning, I believe the email was sent at like before 6 a.m. It was very early, very early Monday morning, but a great way to start a week.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Announcing new bonuses. The top of that scale is $64,000.

Joe Patrice: Wow!

Kathryn Rubino: And i believe it’s 12,000 for junior associates, so pretty penny more than the traditional scale. So far, no one has — no other big law firms have responded to this kind of developing story, but it is very much developing. I imagine by the time this podcast gets published, we’ll have more folks who have responded, but that’s why we’re not talking about anybody else at the moment. There may be developments. Maybe somebody else will come over the top again.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, no. Absolutely, it a good time for a lot of these law firms.

Kathryn Rubino:  Yeah.

Joe Patrice: I think it’s very interesting these law firms are going as aggressively as they are to show their appreciation and to keep people on the rolls like it would seem like right now, would be a time you wouldn’t be worried about bleeding associates and like losing some of your workforce, but right now, we have summer programs that were largely put off or you know, capped in certain ways over the last year or so. We have folks who, because of bar exam issues, may not be licensed on the usual schedule, so retaining the associates you currently have is pretty important and I think that’s a large factor in why people are doing this.

Kathryn Rubino: And let’s not forget also that that was one of the sort of longer term issues from the ‘09 2010 kind of big recession. It was that big law firms cut associates. A lot of associates lost their job in ‘09 and as a result, when 1213, when the economy started recovering, they realized that they were missing classes of mid-levels and senior associates. And so, it really hurt their business in in a lot of ways like not having that base of folks and I think that, you know, lessons from the previous downturns is a thing and I think that making sure that their folks are happy where they are, that they feel appreciated where they are and again, it sucks. The world sucks right now. You know, we are hopefully in the twilight of the pandemic, but it’s still real and trying to make it as not awful as possible. And also don’t forget Davis Polk were also the folks who came out with those packages that we ranked.

Joe Patrice: Oh yes and we did and I can’t remember if we’ve already — if we’ve had an episode in between. Yes, but we haven’t — we mentioned that Davis Polk had had a round of bonuses that were kind of gift bonuses that you know, not cash, but you had to actually take an experience or a gift for yourself like a real treat yourself sort of round and we said–

Kathryn Rubino: You go around $1500.

Joe Patrice: Yeah and we said on the show that we would have loved to have known what all of those options were and ranked them and you came through.

Kathryn Rubino: Thank you listeners.

Joe Patrice: Yes. Thanks listeners. You came through, you got us versions of all of the offerings and we were able to put out an article talking about that, so thanks and you should check that out because there’s some good stuff and we graded them. I’m a little bit harsh greater than you, but you know.

Kathryn Rubino: That’s true. I mean, that’s probably–

Joe Patrice: That was great stuff.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Listen, there were no bad choices and yeah, I think it’s just a personal thing. If you like skiing, you’re going to value that experience a lot higher than I do personally.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, I mean I think that’s fair.

Kathryn Rubino: But there are some great options and really you showed some thoughtfulness in the diversity of options and you get a lot of — there’s a lot of different folks, so I think are going to be very happy with a lot of those gifts.

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(00:20:05)

Download your free copy at interaction.com/like a lawyer to see tips, strategies, plans and statistics from leaders who have been through this before and how they’ve reached success again. So, it is basketball tournament of course time, but that doesn’t mean, but actually, there is still college football going on, the Division 1 AA, FCS folks. They’re all playing right now, but we wanted to talk about a different darker issue from college football that has come up over the last week, a study that has come out showing that if you are a — if you’re in criminal court at all the week after unexpected LSU loss, you’re likely to get a longer sentence and if you are a young black man in criminal court the week after LSU loses a game, they aren’t supposed to lose, it is a significant harsher sentence.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Really problematic.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Maybe not obvious, but I don’t believe that judges think that they’re doing this, but you cannot deny the kind of statistics, the correlation there.

Joe Patrice: As a general matter, just to pull one of the lines out of this. It’s a general matter if you are a juvenile defendant and LSU loses, a loss, an upset in particular. It’s not just losses, so if they play Alabama and they lose, everyone kind

of like understands that, but if they lose an unexpected loss, it is around 136 extra days of jail time for juveniles. There’s a total of an extra 1296 days including time of custody and probation alike, just generally put out during those weeks. It is statistically significant based on race. Also, it is just really problematic and it’s a study that I think is important for folks to know because yeah, like you said, I don’t think judges understand that these kind of implicit moves are happening and I’m not even blaming just judges. I’m sure their prosecutors are asking for extra stuff too.

Kathryn Rubino: People are just in a sour mood.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: I mean, there’s a lot to unpack there probably, but you know, people care about football. They’re upset in general and they’re upset about the world. I think that the ways in which it correlates to folks that are represented on the team probably is a factor as well. You know, this kind of unconscious biases that you know lead folks to be like you look like the people who I now blame.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. Keithley on Twitter is how we came across it, but the paper is emotional judges and unlucky juveniles and it’s in the American Economic Journal of Applied Economics. It’s actually an old study from 2018, but it just made the rounds recently as people are — academic works sometimes slips.

Kathryn Rubino: It has a moment, yeah.

Joe Patrice: Super fan, yeah, but it got a little bit of virality recently as people started looking at it, but it’s–

Kathryn Rubino: Virality is hard to quantify, right? As we’re talking about Judge Middleton earlier, like you know, sometimes things just hit at the right moments, you know, slow news day.

Joe Patrice: But this is a thing like how do we – like how does one go about redressing these sorts of issues? Like do we need to have some sort of statistical oversight that recognizes these sorts of problems? I mean, in the past–

Kathryn Rubino: We don’t sentence anybody after an LSU loss.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, like it maybe that’s just a moratorium on it for a while.

Kathryn Rubino: You know, if I’m a judge, I don’t think I’m doing this, but like, hey

after they lose, let’s push everything off for a week.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, the real problem is it’s almost baked into this system. One of the arguments for the sentencing guidelines at the federal level originally was let’s take this sort of emotion out of it and take these biases out of it and ultimately, the guidelines ended up–

Kathryn Rubino: Being worse.

Joe Patrice: Just doing the same thing again. I mean, it’s hard to figure out what the actual answer would be for this, but it’s worth noting and being concerned about and I think it’s the sort of thing that if nothing else, it’s the sort of study that you know, I hope public defenders and defense lawyers generally are raising in these circumstances just saying and making motions like maybe we should put this off for a week or so, not that you would be, but like it just seems to be part of the system.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah and you know, you don’t want to — I mean, I can–

Joe Patrice: Appearance of impropriety, you know.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, the mere appearance. The mere appearance.

Joe Patrice: It’s a lot. Yeah, but it’s interesting. For me, I thought it was an interesting kind of call back to like the stereotype of like the Brandeis brief, like bringing up all of these social science findings and bringing them into the law and I think it would be — this would be the sort of finding that I think that defense folks should raise and say, you know, it’s not necessarily you judge on this, not necessarily the prosecutor, but like we have reason to believe that it looks bad, appearance of impropriety, you know, can we put this off for another couple of weeks or something until we play Vanderbilt and feel good about ourselves again, whatever it is.

(00:25:02)

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, I mean.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino: Yes. It also if you have the ability to choose the week and yeah, after you play Vanderbilt.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean, that would probably be your best one.

Kathryn Rubino: Oh, if they do lose, you know that sentence was going to be.

Joe Patrice: Oh yeah, that’s—

Kathryn Rubino: —terrible, terrible.

Joe Patrice: Anyway, well, I think that’s pretty much everything that we got for this week. We want to thank of course Nota powered by M&T Bank, LexisNexis Interaction and Lexicon for sponsoring. You should be subscribed to the show and giving it reviews, stars and write something that shows engagement. Engagement is key for them knowing that people actually listen to us. You should be reading Above the Law, vote in our bracket, our March Madness bracket, so you can see the fun.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, see if we’re right that Toobin’s actually worse.

Joe Patrice: Exactly. You should be following us on social media. She’s @kathryn1. I’m @josephpatrice on Twitter. You should be listening to the other shows. She’s also the host of The Jabot which talks about diversity issues and In the Legal Space and I’m on Legaltech Week, the Journalists Roundtable, talking about legal technology. I also do a clubhouse on Wednesdays for people who are in the clubhouse, that is legal tech trends or legal tech news.

Kathryn Rubino: I wasn’t even going to bring it up because it seems like you actually knew the–

Joe Patrice: –trending news. I think maybe it is. Anyway, the point is follow me on Clubhouse and you’ll figure it out, yeah. And with all of that said and everything, yeah. I think that’s everything I always say.

Kathryn Rubino: That’s all I got.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, oh and all the other shows on the Legal Talk Network, that’s the other thing that I always say. So, check out those and we’ll be back later.

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