Oh, what happened last week? Well there was the lawyer having sex on Zoom during a criminal hearing for a gang leader. And there was Columbia Law School, as well as Michigan, sounding the alarm about mental health issues mounting as the schools pushed forward without noticing the toll it was taking. Frankly, that’s a pretty good microcosm of the whole pandemic. Also some Trump lawyers manage to come across as incredibly sympathetic in gossip piece that they in no way leaked themselves… no sir!
Above the Law – Thinking Like a Lawyer
The Ecstasy And The Agony Of Pandemic Law
Joe Patrice: Hello. Welcome.
Kathryn Rubino: Hello.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, I was talking actually to listeners, not you there so you didn’t need to reply. But I was —
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, I’m the one who’s listening to you at the moment.
Joe Patrice: But I understand. Like logically, you feel like I’m talking to you, but there’s actually — there’s like a third act right here.
Kathryn Rubino: So you’re like kind of breaking the fourth wall here?
Joe Patrice: It’s a pod a week. That’s all we do.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, I talked to you during the podcast.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Are you not talking to me during the podcast?
Joe Patrice: I think we’re talking to everybody during the podcast. I don’t think — but this isn’t –
Female: This is very meta.
Joe Patrice: This is not a fictional show so we actually break the fourth wall as a whole concept. This is Thinking Like a Lawyer by the way. This is the Above the Law show. I’m Joe Patrice from Above the Law. That is Kathryn Rubino. We are here once again to check in on some of the big stories of the week. As always, we’ll run through those and take some time to thank our sponsors throughout the show, Lexicon, LexisNexis Interaction, Contract Tools and Nota, so yeah. But we’ll get to hearing from them in a bit in characteristically fun ways.
Kathryn Rubino: How are you this fine week?
Joe Patrice: You look good. Snow is getting to be a little bit of a problem. Like I find snow magical but at a certain point –
Kathryn Rubino: So, I don’t mind snow the way my life currently works. I don’t have to do a ton of shoveling, whatever. It’s fine, it’s annoying, but it is what it is. But there’s just a lot of snow and it doesn’t feel like it’s ever actually going to end and I guess it’s okay because it’s still February and in my mind, February is kind of peak snow time so it’s fine, but it feels like it’s going to continue through March and March snow is the devil.
Joe Patrice: It’s insane.
Kathryn Rubino: March and April snow is unacceptable to me.
Joe Patrice: Right.
Kathryn Rubino: But, I mean, I really have no choice in these things.
Joe Patrice: I mean, at this point, it’s snowing most of the way through the week. There’s still snow on the ground. I mean, I guess it doesn’t get a chance to become slushy and unpleasant when there’s just a new coat of it every day.
Kathryn Rubino: I suppose there’s little things we should be thankful for.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Small miracles.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Well, you know what’s a small miracle?
Kathryn Rubino: I’m dying to find out what you think a small miracle is.
Joe Patrice: Coming back from a pandemic. So how have law firms weathered previous economic downturns and come out stronger on the other side? LexisNexis Interaction has released an in-depth global research report confronting the 2020 downturn, lessons learned during previous economic crises. Download your free copy at interaction.com/likealawyer to see tips, strategies plans and statistics from leaders who have been through this before and how they’ve reached success again. So, what’s up?
Kathryn Rubino: Not too much. Things have been — I don’t know. Have they been pretty busy in your mind?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I was actually transitioning to — we’re having some meta issues here that I was transitioning to maybe you could talk about a story or something.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, I guess I could.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: So, I guess one of the bigger stories, there’s actually a couple different stories that we had this past week and that is the virtual hearing speaking of the pandemic but all of the virtual hearings getting disturbed by all sorts of shenanigans. I think you had a story about folks having sex on camera during a virtual hearing. I had a story about a public court hearing that was disturbed by a cavalcade of dick pics.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, but yours wasn’t even a court hearing though, right? It was just like a community board or something?
Kathryn Rubino: No, no. It was a high court hearing in England. It was about proper ownership of a football quote unquote but it was actually soccer obviously because it was UK. Ownership of a team and there’s going to trial the end of the month, whatever. But there was some public hearing as a result and Despite the admonishments of the judge, people sort of took over the Zoom, it wasn’t a Zoom, I believe it was a team’s meeting.
Joe Patrice: Okay.
Kathryn Rubino: And took it over. A bunch of dick pics were sent. People started making raspberry noises. One of the lawyers involved called it a circus atmosphere. It was high comedy.
Joe Patrice: You know, I mean, maybe this is a problem with teams. I’ve already learned how in Zoom you put those people as observers and they don’t get to talk unless they like specifically reach out and get themselves recognized.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I mean, I don’t use teams much myself but it was definitely a disturbance.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So, meanwhile, there was also a lawyer in Peru who got in some trouble because he decided to start having sex during the hearing, like a gang lord. So it wasn’t like it was one of the boring hearings. Like I could understand, I mean, it’s like a trust in estates like probate thing. Sometimes you need a distraction. But –
Kathryn Rubino: So you’re in favor of sex during a court hearing if it’s boring?
Joe Patrice: I’m not necessarily in favor.
Kathryn Rubino: I think Jeffrey too may agrees with you.
Joe Patrice: I’m saying – oh, nice. I’m just saying I understand. This one though it seems like –
Kathryn Rubino: It’s not recommended in any event.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So, had a weird wide-angle view on the old Zoom and I think must have thought he was off frame, but was not.
Kathryn Rubino: Must have, right? Must have thought that they were off frame.
Joe Patrice: Maybe or, you know?
Kathryn Rubino: He’s into it?
Joe Patrice: I mean, I guess there’s also that option, but yeah. No, I’m –
Kathryn Rubino: Disturbing.
Joe Patrice: My takeaway of it was just you don’t get to come back from that as a crime lord. I feel like if your violent street gang is most known for “Vatan, the lawyer had sex during your hearing.” You’re not tough anymore.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, where do you have such a bad ass attorney. Of course, even your attorneys can’t help but have sex all the time.
Joe Patrice: What’s unclear whether he’s attorney or if this was somebody else but yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: I guess.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I just feel like this is the ultimate –
Kathryn Rubino: Maybe we just don’t know enough about crime lords in general.
Joe Patrice: Obviously.
Kathryn Rubino: I mean, most of my crime lord information comes from daredevil.
Joe Patrice. Yeah, as well.
Kathryn Rubino: Like Kingpin is basically all I can think of.
Joe Patricel: Fair enough. Yeah. So, we’ve got that handled so that’s what was going. I hope that lawyer managed to get paid though before everything went down. You Know, you went to law school to be a lawyer not an accountant. Take advantage of Nota. A no cost IOLTA management tool that helps solo and small law firms track client funds down to the penny. Enjoy peace of mind with one click reconciliation, automated transaction alerts and real-time bank data. Visit trustnota.com/legal to learn more. Terms and conditions may apply.
So, let’s go back. We were talking about how depressing the snow can sometimes be. Is there a story maybe you want to talk about from this week?
Kathryn Rubino: There are couple actually about –
Joe Patrice: God help me if you picked the wrong one again.
Kathryn Rubino: We had a couple stories about mental health issues in law schools.
Joe Patrice: Oh, did we now?
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: Oh, wow. It’s interesting because I thought I set you up for that perfectly a little while ago and then we didn’t hear about it. But I’m –
Kathryn Rubino: I didn’t see the connection before.
Joe Patrice: — I am super eager to hear about it now.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay. So, we got a bunch of tipsters from Columbia Law School who reached out to above the law which if you have similar issues, you can always reach out tips at abovethelaw.com, we’re always available on that email address, about a bunch of issues that they were having at the law school. This Columbia Law School student senate had done a survey in the fall semester and mental health issues were just seeing a very sharp increase kind of across the board, folks who were experiencing both an increase in mental health issues as well as feeling like the administration was largely or if not largely at least partially responsible for an increase in the pressures regarding this. And it’s because there were big changes made to the schedule because of the pandemic. There was a shortened schedule. They eliminated reading week for the spring semester so right from the end of classes right into a bunch of days for classes. And so –
Joe Patrice: For exams.
Kathryn Rubino: For exams, sorry.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Right.
Kathryn Rubino: So that was a problem. And there was a petition to the administration of the law school to try to change a bunch of the — for the
spring semester to make some changes to kind of alleviate some of the stressors that folks had. And Dean Julian Lester had sent out an email being like, “Yeah, things are hard.”
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. So it wasn’t great. It wasn’t great but to Dean Lester’s credit after getting kind of dragged about all this, we did a follow-up story where the dean and a bunch of the administrators met with representatives of the student senate. They had a list of I think 10 or 11 different demands, went through them all, made progress on a bunch of them. A couple of them were like, “This is why we can’t do it for these reasons or these are the other ways we follow-up” and it was really a very productive conversation. And so, it really does seem like things are moving forward in a really good way. But it just kind of just goes to show you why having an active dialogue between students and administration is always important but particularly in this kind of crazy times.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I feel like this is a theme that we’ve been hearing about from a lot of different angles and I’m assuming that Colombia is not the only law school. I assume there’s probably –
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. We did another story about Michigan Law School having similar issues.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough. And I think it’s probably impacting almost all the law schools and there’s an attitude amongst those of us who went through hard things to assume that every hard thing that we did is the same as every hard thing everyone else is going to do and I think a lot of folks who went through law school and law school is stressful and difficult.
Query whether or not it always has to be but it is, it was and at that point, we come out on the other side and say, well, no one should complain. I went through it too.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Law school sucks, next.
Joe Patrice: Except you didn’t go through it because you didn’t have spring break cancelled so that you could shove more classes in because you couldn’t come back after the holidays fast enough because there’s a deadly pandemic going on and they got rid of reading week and they’re having extra hours every day of the class to make sure it meets –
Kathryn Rubino: And lots of law schools moved early interview week from the fall to January now. So those are actually overlapping with classes for a lot of –
Joe Patrice: So now, you’ve got to interview while you’re doing all of this.
Kathryn Rubino: Yup. And it’s a lot plus there’s the whole you know pandemic aspect of it. Folks are getting sick who are in law school or taking care of, you know, family members who are sick or dying. One of the stories from Colombia that came out was somebody who was like, you know, I found out my grandmother died in the middle of taking an exam and there was sort of no mechanism to kind of deal with that. I just kind of had to cabin it off and do the best I could and is that grade really reflective of who you are as a lawyer or potentially as a lawyer? No, probably not, right? Hopefully, this is not kind of the permanent state of the world, the pandemic. These are sorts of things that people are going through and there doesn’t seem to be a really great across-the-board response and so administrations have to kind of deal with these on an ad hoc basis but be responsive and be able to make changes and not just say, “Hey, this doesn’t fit in our accepted formula of issues.”
Joe Patrice: Yeah. It’s almost as though and I’m sure there’s a psychological term for all this that is better than what I’m about to say. But it comes from a place where we cling to less the idea of how stressful it actually — the impact, the experience of how stressful it may have actually been for us and we actually instead cling to the idea that stress existed and therefore it’s all the same. Like I went through something stressful so it must be the same thing that you’re going through as opposed to thinking about this and this has come up with the bar exam situation too. I mean, a lot of the – obviously, most of the folks who write in to us about bar exam situations have been on the side of this is ridiculous that we’re going forward with this during pandemic times and forcing people into big convention centers while all this is going on.
Kathryn Rubino: Right. But as sympathetic as folks are, they’re often not sympathetic for things like diploma privilege.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. But what we — most people are writing in like that but we do get detractors who write in and they write in stuff like almost exclusively the detractor’s position is. I mean, the bar exam was never a cupcake. I took it and blah blah and it’s like — but none of the scenarios that you took it under are close to the same experiences happening here. We get that it was annoying and stressful but that mere fact does not translate across to every bad situation.
Kathryn Rubino: Absolutely. And the other thing I’d say is that we know the legal profession is terrible when it comes to mental health issues, right? They have an above average incidence of mental health issues, of substance abuse. Study after study has proven this and rather than say “Hey” that means that we need to make big changes to what we think of is acceptable on how we deal with it, you know, kind of industry-wide. Particularly older folks are more likely to say, “Well, I did it and I survived.”
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: And that is really problematic.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, this kind of broken recording. But the event that they survived is almost never the same as what’s going on here.
Kathryn Rubino: But I’m saying even if it were.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: Even if it were, we know that that has led to problems. Dealing with mental health issues the way the legal profession has is problematic, we know that. We have all the data that proves that but rather than say, oh, that means we can make changes. People are like, “Well, I’m still here.”
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: You know, which is not a great way to look at mental health issues.
Joe Patrice: No.
Kathryn Rubino: And hopefully, you know, the younger, the newer generation of folks are really into making these changes and can potentially make them over the long term.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. The profession is going to change over time hopefully as opposed to just being locked down is what it’s always been but, you know, there’s just new ways of dealing with things that people can hopefully deploy to make the job better. One of those is if you work with contracts and don’t use contract tools, you’re missing a lot. Save time, make more money and do a better job for your clients with Contract Tools by Paper Software. Contract Tools is the most powerful word add-in for working with contracts. Thousands of lawyers all over the world rely on Contract Tools every day for every kind of deal.
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Kathryn Rubino: Speaking of returning back to kind of the profession and how we get back –
Joe Patrice: Oh?
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I’m doing it to you.
Joe Patrice: No, no. You’re going to try — you’re trying segways now, okay.
Kathryn Rubino: We’re working on it. We’re working on it. It seems like a lot of folks who may have been involved in the Trump administration are eager to get back to sort of the life they led before.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean, obviously with any turnover of an administration, there’s the mad dash to get back to the private sector.
Kathryn Rubino: Sure. That revolving door has always been criticized.
Joe Patrice: Revolving doors are what they are.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: But this, it really has taken on something of a feel of a less of a revolving door than a game of duck, duck, goose or whatever it is, where like the key is to not be the last one to turn off the lights because they could get bad. Obviously, some folks like your Rod Rosenstein and all got out early as more stories came out of their culpability and certain things like the family separation which Rod has definitely been involved in. He’s already moved on to his big law firm and seems to be getting by obviously. Jones Day is taking whatever riffraff, they actually don’t really care whether or not, I mean, you really could have just killed babies and they’re willing to take you. But as we saw, they announced most recently that they brought on Chad Mizell who is more or less an architect of that separation policy and they brought him on –
Kathryn Rubino: Well, they you don’t mention it in the press release. It didn’t happen.
Joe Patrice: They don’t mention it at the press release which actually I thought was a bold move for Jones Day. I was like, this shows some degree of growth. In the past, you would have said plus look at what he did here.
Kathryn Rubino: Proudly.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, but — no. So, they try to get by in the press release without mentioning that. So some folks are getting that treatment, others though, I mean, we already had that conversation about the DOJ attorney who may not be able to go back to Kirkland because they, you know, because of the story of him attempting a coup. But we also see –
Kathryn Rubino: That’s a problem.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. We also see that Pat Cipollone at White House council and Eric Hershman, formerly of Kaswits but now mostly retired so probably not needing to come back. But they were featured in this Axios story from a week ago about their role in arguing with Trump and Sydney Powell having this big knock down drag out fight in the White House about what to do.
Kathryn Rubino: Right.
Joe Patrice: It was very interesting. I read it –
Kathryn Rubino: And Axios has a whole series about kind of these like fights at the end of the Trump administration to kind of really, you know, put a microscope on what actually happened behind closed doors.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. But from my perspective, I didn’t care as much about what went on behind closed doors. I assume sausage making is awful. I actually saw that story as way more interesting from the perspective of who’s the source of this and how desperate are they to perform some kind of career.
Kathryn Rubino: To be clear, there’s a lot of, you know, this was not me going on as opposed you know, to make clear their role.
Joe Patrice: It’s all anonymous sources. They just all happen to be anonymous sources that talk about how Hershman was not only in the right, but heroic and courageously standing up for what’s right. Obviously —
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. Like it’s his positioning in the room accurate.
Joe Patrice: Yes. Obviously, you don’t know, you know, they say anonymous sources, it may not have been him but whoever it was, really wants him to come out looking good. So, I just read the story from a backwards looking angle of who’s the unreliable narrator in this story, basically. But it’s fascinating kind of I thought was interesting from a legal perspective of like how do you frame your career. I mean, a lot of being a lawyer is the ability to tell stories, you would say. And we had this revolving door stuff that we’ve been talking about on the show and in the website for a few weeks now, but this was one where you actually got to see the narrative shaping in effect.
Kathryn Rubino: In real time sort of.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. In real time, you got to watch as somebody tried to explain vis-à-vis reporter how they’re okay to get a job on the back end.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. And I guess, we don’t actually know where a bunch of these folks will wind up.
Joe Patrice: Of course.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s still kind of early in that but it will kind of be interesting to see what their next chapter is and the ways in which this article potentially helped pave that path.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. No. There’s a lot of lawyers in the government and especially obviously there are non-partisan jobs out there, non-political jobs but there are also a lot of political jobs who do a lot of the main administrative tasks around the White House and yeah, we get to see how they uh get their new jobs, you know, on the subject of administrative tasks.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, yeah.
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Joe Patrice: So, last week was also Legal Week Year Tech New York.
Kathryn Rubino: I’m not okay with this kind of growth of legal tech –
Joe Patrice: Legal week creep.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, legal week creep.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So, it was the — and what used to be legal tech New York, one of the annual legal technology shows big one here in New York, always kicks off the conference calendar if you will.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it’s midtown. It was –
Joe Patrice: Yeah. We have it in midtown, it’s great. They changed its name to Legal Week a few years ago. Now it’s legal — it’s not Legal Year, it’s Legal Week Year.
Kathryn Rubino: That doesn’t even make any sense.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, it doesn’t. But they’re just going to keep having more sessions till like June, that’s how it’s going to happen.
Kathryn Rubino: First of all –
Joe Patrice: It’s just never going to end.
Kathryn Rubino: — that is not a year, but it’s a half of a year, first of all.
Joe Patrice: That’s true. I wonder if they’re going try to push it beyond that, we’ll see.
Kathryn Rubino: Sure. But also, I mean, there are other conferences and I don’t know why it needs to all go under this umbrella.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean, they’re going to run one in march and that’s obviously when we would otherwise go to like ABA TECHSHOW or something, yeah, so it’s interesting. Anyway. They had their show, it was quite interesting. I didn’t get to go to as many things as I usually do because my computer exploded midway through, so I had a legal tech. I had my own legal tech issues.
Kathryn Rubino: You the epitome of legal tech issues and all they have.
Joe Patrice: But, yeah. So we did that and we had a lot of conversations with various vendors about like what’s up with them and where they’re going, so very interesting. I don’t really have a ton to get into about it here but I’m –
Kathryn Rubino: What’s when the keynotes though?
Joe Patrice: Stacey Abrams gave a keynote.
Kathryn Rubino: Nice.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. And I assume balance that. They made Chris Christie give one too.
Kathryn Rubino: Both sides.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, it was kind of that sort of situation.
Kathryn Rubino: Which was an awful trend of modern political discourse.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Neither of them seemed particularly legal techie. Stacey –
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah. I mean –
Joe Patrice: Stacey Abrams at least kind of tried. She kind of would steer the conversation back to. And a lot of what lawyers do is solve problems and so that’s what I was kind of trying to do with, you know, and made it feel like it makes sense.
Kathryn Rubino: Sure. She made an effort, yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Kathryn Rubino: What about Chris?
Joe Patice: He did not do that. It was just like an extended cut of him any other time you see him. I will say that the interviewer, you know, let a few things slide that I wouldn’t have necessarily but deserves full points for going directly to the question.
So, I don’t think anybody’s ever asked you directly. How do you feel about Charles Kushner getting a pardon? And that was some fun that was the price of admission right there.
Kathryn Rubino: Well, what was his answer?
Joe Patrice: He was very diplomatic about it.
Kathryn Rubino: Okay.
Joe Patrice: But he’s clearly seething.
Joe Patrice: And it’s one of those situations where, you know, you say the diplomatic thing and you know now is the time for the conversation to stop, but you just can’t stop yourself. He’s like –
Kathryn Rubino: Just can’t end it.
Joe Patrice: No. It actually — it doesn’t bother me. It won’t take away the work that me and my team did in a very important case but the president has the ability to pardon whomever he wants and so we just have to take it. Wait a beat. And then he’s like –
Kathryn Rubino: Wait for it.
Joe Patrice: And he’s like, “And honestly, this was one of the worst criminals that we ever dealt with in my office. He did this and he did this and the witness tampering was above a scale that I have not seen and we’ve done mob cases,” then realizes this is too much then wait a beat, say something okay and then goes, “And I mean, obviously, given his son-in-law, it was clear that this was always the goal of the Trump administration was to get Charles free.” And I’m like — it was worth. That guy couldn’t quite stop himself from unveiling the seething.
Kathryn Rubino: So really, that interviewing skill of just waiting is sometimes –
Joe Patrice: That’s a great practice tip.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: It is a very good one from depositions and so on, yeah. Sometimes just wait a second and the uncomfortable silence will drag out the right answer.
Kathryn Rubino: Most people want to feel uncomfortable silences, right? And when you’re trying to prep a witness, you tell them not to sort of be put off by silence but lots of people will just try to fill that silence and you’ll get there.
Joe Patrice: Oh, it’s a natural impulse.
Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it’s natural.
Joe Patrice: So that was very good and entertaining, but the rest of it was kind of black. But I was greatly entertained by him trying to keep himself politically under wraps for a conversation about Charles Kushner, yeah, anyway.
Kathryn Rubino: That was fun.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. So yeah, that was a fun little legal week and with all that, we’re going to have more stuff come up this week I assume.
Kathryn Rubino: Every week, in fact, that’s kind of what happens. Life keeps on going.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Anyway. Thank you all for listening. You should be subscribed to the show to get new episodes. You should give it reviews, stars, write something, shows you’re engaged and that always helps people know that the show’s out there.
You should be listening to the Jabot which is Kathryn’s other podcast. You should listen to the other offerings of the Legal Talk Network. Check out Legal Tech Week if you enjoy the Legal Tech conversations because that’s the lawyer’s roundtable That I do on Fridays.
Kathryn Rubino: Oh, you remember the name of it?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Yeah. Well, in fairness, the name has always been a little fuzzy about. We internally called it The Round Table and not that wasn’t what it was on services. You could watch that show live actually. It’s like a Zoom webinar that you can register for live and then you can listen to it as a podcast afterwards. But if you watch it then you would have been able to participate in the side chat that went on the whole time which turned the whole show into a ham’s beer appreciation hour.
Kathryn Rubino: You’re there for that. I can’t imagine.
Joe Patrice: I mean, I was largely a ringleader of it, but yeah. Though it was, you know, it’s always fun to listen to, but it’s more fun to participate I suppose. You should read above the law. I think is fair. You should follow us on social media. I’m @josephpatrice, she’s @kathryn1 which is the numeral one at the end of there. She holds up her finger every time I do that is though you can see her hold up the number one.
Kathryn Rubino: It’s more to remind you.
Joe Patrice: I’ve already said it the point that you do that though.
Kathryn Rubino: I usually do it before.
Joe Patrice: Anyway. So, with all of that, I think we’re done. Thanks to all of our sponsors and we’ll be back next week.
Kathryn Rubino: Peace!
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