Building A Video Game Practice

Episode Notes

Transcript

Above the Law – Thinking Like a Lawyer

Building A Video Game Practice

03/24/2020

[Music]

Intro Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer with your hosts Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice, talking about legal news and pop culture all while thinking like a lawyer, here on Legal Talk Network.

[Music]

Joe Patrice Hello. Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer. I am Joe Patrice coming to you live from the pandemic fallout shelter that we have moved Above the Law headquarters into in an undisclosed location.

Today is kind of a fun day for us, even though we are coming from a remote place we are going to be able to go back to a classic episode of Thinking Like a Lawyer in that we — I think it was potentially our first interview episode ever of this show. Going back several years we interviewed this guest and now we are going to catch up on what’s happened in between.

So I want to bring back to the show Ryan Morrison. He is at Morrison Rothman. How are you?

Ryan Morrison: I am doing well. Thanks for having me.

Joe Patrice: He is also know to most of the world as Video Game Attorney online and that’s the niche practice that he has really taken and run with. And so how you — well, before we get into the particulars of the industry, so you are also at home I assume?

Ryan Morrison: I am. This has been quite the — quite the couple of weeks.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. It’s interesting, so I will just ask the question for somebody who is practicing, what is this whole increasingly severe lockdown like for you all? I mean it’s not that the law is really stopping; I mean I guess some courts are suspending, but issues are continuing to arise. How have you been coping with running a firm from remote?

Ryan Morrison: So we actually are in a lucky position because we have a lot of attorneys here who are on the younger side and understand the technology behind everything. As many big firms and as many of our clients are figuring out things like Zoom or Discord or things like that, we have already been running our firms through them.

Yes, we have an office in Los Angeles and that’s currently closed, we have about 10 people there and they are all working from home now, but we have always — and every day we have remote attorneys; we have one in Connecticut, one in Virginia, we have people all over the place, so we are used to a weekly all-hands through Zoom and talking through Discord and making sure everyone is on the same page. So our day-to-day operations are not so disrupted other than we are going stir-crazy.

Joe Patrice: I can imagine. Yeah, we have been hearing reports from some of the giant Biglaw firms of how they are dealing with it, but we haven’t checked in as much on smaller firms and in some ways the smaller firms are — and you will have that increased nimbleness to do what you are doing.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah. In fact, I think we are — this is kind of a good position for us, all things considered, obviously it’s a terrible position for the world, the country and just humans at large, but business-wise we are able to pivot a lot more quickly than these big firms. We are able to change our entire business practice overnight as long as myself and my two partners agree and we put in a new plan and it allows for us to keep the clients happy.

Since we last spoke we have been working with far larger clients, a lot of AAA studios, a lot of technology companies, which I am sure we will talk about a bit later, but they are calling us and saying we don’t know how to work remote, can you do it for us? So it’s been an interesting month for sure.

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So I really do think it was probably the second episode; I think we had an introductory episode and then the first real episode of this show we had you on and at the time I had just met you, you were pretty much fresh out of law school I think, maybe you had been out a year and you had decided to go into this practice that you saw a need for someone and it was an area that you loved and understood and you were like I am going to be a video game attorney and at the time you were just kind of doing your own thing.

Now, what’s happened in the years intervening?

(00:05:08)

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, and it’s been an honor to have been one of the earlier guests for sure, if not the first.

Joe Patrice: I think it was, yeah.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah. You guys were great and it was truly a fun experience. And yeah, I mean to that point, everyone in my life, personally, professionally and in between told me do not start a law firm out of law school, you don’t know what you don’t know, etc., and they were absolutely right. I mean I was very blessed to have great attorneys around me that I was able to use as a mentor network.

But if you remember back then or for those who don’t know, the way I got into this was Candy Crush, which was on everyone’s phone, their parent company or the company that owns them, King, was going around claiming ownership of the trademarks for Candy and Saga and not suing people but shutting down a lot of companies or sending demand letters. And Reddit went nuts and they were — everybody was saying we want an attorney but we can’t afford one.

So I went online and I said, listen, I have been a lawyer for about eight days, but I will help you for free if you want to do this and it steamrolled and snowballed. It turned into a lot of successes on our end. Reddit started calling me Video Game Attorney. I ran with it, got a Twitter following out of it and all of a sudden I had a law firm.

So I partnered with attorneys smarter than me and hired people smarter than me and we have built something really cool here; it’s been seven years now. My partner Allison Rothman, who is the Rothman in Morrison Rothman, she started as an associate with us, but like I said was not only smarter, but also just knew everything we needed, worked her butt off, and as we joked before this podcast started — every time I do a podcast like this she says please don’t ruin the firm. So she is the level-headed one.

And then I partnered with Keith Cooper, who has been practicing 25 years. He comes from traditional entertainment; music, movies, film, TV, etc. And Ali comes from brand protection for luxury goods. She was working with brands like Louis Vuitton and Rolex. So those are three very different mindsets, three very different backgrounds and it allowed us to sit at a table together and really brainstorm how to not only make what we had sustainable and work and grow, but also build towards the AAA studios, the big publishers we want to work with, technology companies throughout San Francisco and LA. It’s a big reason I moved to the West Coast. I miss the pizza and the people of New York, but there is not much — our industry is not there.

So it’s been a ride though and very exciting to see where it’s all still going. We are about 10 attorneys strong right now and we hired specialists. We tried not to hire any generalists, we hired people who had a really strong passion for let’s say intellectual property or let’s say privacy, whatever it might be that we were seeing a lot of problems come in from our clients. And it’s been a lot of trial and error. We have had turnover for sure.

I have put a lot of energy and resources into very, let’s just be blunt, stupid endeavors. But at the end of the day it is a very small industry of attorneys who can say truly they work in video games, eSports and digital entertainment and I really believe our firm is at the forefront of that. So we are going to — and not to say that there are not other firms absolutely killing it in the space, but we are in a good place and we look to stay there and build this as we grow.

Joe Patrice: You mentioned eSports there, I will just say when I was in a bar, back when we had bars, so about a week ago and there were no sports on TV and somebody said what are we going to do without sports, and I said without hesitation, I think what’s going to happen is we are all going to have some very strong opinions about fortnight pretty soon, which I assumed would take over.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, listen, you are not wrong, not only is eSports — lot of events are canceled, sure, but there are events going on every day on Twitch and others that you can go see. But not only that, professional athletes who are now immensely bored are going to eSports. We have a lot of NBA players reaching out to my firm or to my — I also have a talent agency that works in this space, so the NBA players are contacting us. We just saw a headline this morning that the NASCAR drivers are starting SimRacing from their homes and streaming it on Twitch.

So there will be sports, it’s just definitely not the kind most people listening to this are used to.

Joe Patrice: For the racers, like the higher end ones, I know they have super high tech sim system, so that’s something that they are already set up in their homes to do, so that makes sense.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, if you are not driving, google what those look like, they are incredible.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s like a whole — it’s like the cockpit out of it is just crazy.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, looks out of a sci-fi movie, it’s crazy.

(00:09:58)

Joe Patrice: Yeah. So you mentioned you brought in IP people and privacy people, the issues — specialists in the issues that your clients started seeing. So let’s talk about the privacy one for now. So what’s going on in this industry when it comes to privacy? I mean we have had kind of sea changes in privacy laws around us and we have talked about it from a bunch of different angles, but we have never really focused on how it impacts video gaming.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, and it’s crazy to just look at it as a whole. So we do a ton of work in privacy right now, as each country, continent, state comes out with new privacy laws, the companies that are targets, the bigger companies that might get hit by it are rightfully so confused, scared and don’t know which end is up. We like to think we offer a solution there by walking them through all of it.

However, looking at it even a step back, for 20 years everyone with a computer and the Internet was giving away their privacy in exchange for nothing. It’s the terms of service and privacy policy that you can’t click okay fast enough on at the beginning of a website; we all agree to that. The courts have said, they hold up, they are legitimate.

There was a stat recently that said if you took the time to read every privacy policy you agree to in one day, it would take seven days. So I don’t know why they hold up in court because it’s quite literally impossible to read them; however, you have to, they are the law and for 20 years again we did that.

Then people started caring all of a sudden, but only on a surface level. They don’t actually care. They just say they care. And then the GDPR comes out in Europe, CCPA in California, all of these very complicated laws that require extreme compliance and all they have turned into was an email from every company you work with that everyone had to get on January 1 and now we all get a pop-up at the bottom of our website saying, we use cookies, is that okay, blah, blah, blah, and everyone just clicks that, okay, okay, okay, I want to go to the website.

So it’s kind of silly to think that this is solving anything, but it is — it’s absolutely the reality and it’s insanely complicated. If you don’t have a privacy attorney, I would get one if you are a legitimate company worried about finer profits.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. And for some of us who think back to video games being oh, you know, I get my cartridge and put it in and then that’s the end of the conversation, but that’s just not where games are these days.

Ryan Morrison: And not to even jump in there, I am sorry, you got me excited.

Joe Patrice: You knew where I was going.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, because listen, you don’t own anything you own “anymore”. So the privacy laws aside, I mean that’s all about what is the game tracking from you, and it’s everything. If you track an email address, you need to be compliant of these privacy laws, that’s why it’s not even — games is still our shtick, but we are doing compliance for jewelry stores. It’s things that you would never think that need to do this that we are doing it for.

But with video games in particular, yeah, they track everything. They know how long you wait at the Start screen before you hit Play. They know what character you click and then don’t play, but they know what you are considering. They know how much you are spending in the store versus your friend who doesn’t spend and then when there is random drops, they will give your friend who doesn’t spend money all the free cool items so that he is a walking billboard for you, who is playing next to him, that will spend the money.

The privacy stuff gets absolutely crazy and to your point, all this stuff you eventually spend money on, you don’t own, whether it is the new Halo game or new whatever game that you are downloading off your Xbox or PlayStation or computer, all you are actually downloading is a license to play that game and that license is wholly revocable if they catch you cheating or selling the account, or if they just want to, they can do it at their whim.

And this counts, even if you go — I had a friend who said oh well, that doesn’t apply to me. I go into a GameStop and I buy the disk and then I go home and put it in my Xbox. No, it’s the same thing because all that disk does now is unlock the download. You do not own anything anymore, there is no — it was so fun when we were kids, right, to go in there and find the dollar used games and things like that; never again, that doesn’t exist anymore. So that’s where we are.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean at least never again without somebody making a comprehensive change to the intellectual property laws, which I mean who knows, but I think the real — the moment —

Ryan Morrison: Half our government believes in angels, so I wouldn’t hold you on that.

Joe Patrice: Exactly. I have always said that the time when that’s going to come is when people start seeing that the hundreds and hundreds of dollars they have spent on iTunes, all that music just disappears because oh, you didn’t really own it, I think that’s a moment it will finally hit people to what happened.

Ryan Morrison: Absolutely. And that’s why services like Spotify became so popular because first off, why am I buying a track and then what do you mean I don’t own the account? What do you mean I can’t give this to my son?

(00:14:57)

You are not allowed to leave your Steam Library with all your games in there to your family if you die, they just — it disappears, that’s insane, but that’s the current law.

Now, I don’t think they would go after you to be fair. I don’t think Steam is evil, but the law says that, that’s what their terms of service says, you cannot give this away.

Joe Patrice: Wow. So what other big issues are you seeing legally in this space? We talked about privacy and we have kind of touched on some IP stuff, but if you were to define like the big issues we haven’t yet touched on in this space, what would they be?

Ryan Morrison: There are a few and I will jump right into them. I would say, because I know a lot of law students listen to this also, if there is a way to stand out right now, it is absolutely mastering privacy. Everyone is concerned about it, like I said jewelry stores to video games, everyone has to comply here. And there are so many law students who say oh, I am interested in privacy or they have it on their résumé, but when you get them in an interview, they don’t actually know anything, and that’s fine, they are law students, but if you are a student looking for work, there is no better advice than absolutely master privacy right now.

That said, the other stuff that we are working on that is generating a ton of concern for our clients is strangely enough accessibility. Accessibility laws are in place for very good reasons for people who need the same or similar access to all of the things that you and I enjoy and they should have that right. However, as with most laws, there are terrible people and terrible attorneys out there who take advantage of it.

So there is a few law firms in particular, I won’t name them to save you a defamation suit, but I will tweet about it later, who are going around and filing what I would call troll lawsuits. They found one handicapped individual, if he even exists, and they go after video games, very small indie games saying hey, you don’t have this, this or that, send us $50,000 and an admission that you take this seriously and you are moving forward. And all they are doing is building up look how many people have done this before you for their next demand letter.

And it’s absolutely ridiculous, it’s putting in things like eReaders or Text-to-Speech or things that again are very necessary in some instances, but are not necessary in an indie game about moving left to right and hitting a block with a sword. So we are seeing a lot of that. Accessibility lawsuits are all over the place.

And then most importantly, as I am sure you have talked about on here before or you have just seen in various news articles is the DMCA. As everyone is currently quarantined and sitting home watching YouTube and Twitch and getting their news online and everything else, everybody wants to be the first one out. We want to make sure my video is the first, my video is the — if it’s first it’s the best. It doesn’t matter if it’s actually the best. And as a result we are seeing so many fraudulent DMCAs sent out by people who know that the process of a DMCA, which is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, you can send a takedown.

So you go to a YouTube video who is a competitor to you and you issue a fraudulent takedown on their video that beat you to market, or if you are a journalist, you do it to a rival journalist on their article, that goes down and the appeal process takes a few days, if not a few weeks. So by the time it gets up, nobody cares anymore, no one is reading or watching that and you have become in first place.

Now, that’s perjury, submitting a fraudulent DMCA is straight up perjury; however, it’s happening wildly throughout the Internet.

Joe Patrice: I mean it’s almost like it’s happening automatically, as though no one is even looking at it before they file their DMCA requests.

Ryan Morrison: Right. And they — I mean there is a Supreme Court case, they have to, but they do not.

Joe Patrice: Speaking of that, the videos and so on, we mentioned Twitch already. When that first started, I thought that was a super cool service and I worried that it was going to become bogged down in people saying well, you can’t show what you are showing because I have some IP. It seems as though there has been kind of a settling of all that, where people aren’t upset about Twitch anymore.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting. And for those who don’t know, Twitch, it does other things; it has poker, it has sports, it has live events, Bernie Sanders did his rally on there, but it is at its heart a video game website. And yeah, there has been a lot of talk about, are you allowed to stream a game on there, is it transformative, is it fair use or is this just straight up infringement. And I think legal scholars as a whole kind of agree, yeah, it’s straight up infringement.

However, I would argue there is a lot of fair use or transformative elements there that are worth discussing; however, that’s nothing to hang your hat on as a business person starting a stream, but you are right, most companies have said, why on earth would we fight this, this is a great thing for us, look how many people are watching our game. However, we are seeing more competitors come out. We just saw Blizzard Activision who makes World of Warcraft, Hearthstone, Call of Duty, Overwatch, some really big titles, we saw them leave Twitch and go to YouTube gaming. So now that’s a huge, huge, huge situation there.

(00:20:12)

We also saw developers in the past, Nintendo for example, tried to say anyone who wants to stream Nintendo games, go ahead, but we want a cut of it. They got lit on fire for that so that very quickly went away.

And then even more recently the game Persona 5 came out and they said, you are allowed to stream this, but since it’s a story game and we don’t want people to ruin the plot so they don’t buy it, you can only stream up to this hour in the game and then you have to stop. No one listened to that and everyone lit them on fire and they also retracted it. So you just can’t beat the public on this.

Joe Patrice: Okay, that’s good to know, but that course, that progression you were describing is the same sort of progression that streaming video had. At first everybody was willing to put their things licensed out to Netflix because everyone is getting to see our movies and then suddenly somebody said well, if we started our own service and now you are paying eight different subscriptions.

Ryan Morrison: And it’s the same people. I mean FOX is the one who is behind one of Twitch’s competitors, Microsoft is another one. That said, and maybe I am being naive here and I am becoming a dinosaur in the industry, but I have prided myself on being the guy who really gets the stuff. I am a nerd at heart. I don’t think anybody beats Twitch. I think Twitch is in such a strong position right now that competing with it is foolhardy.

Kids don’t watch TV. My generation was the cord-cutting generation, their generation never had cords. They don’t know what cable is. So they went on and they watched Twitch. Ninja was the biggest guy on Twitch. He left to go to a rival service, Mixer, and the numbers are out, his audience did not follow, and that’s because when kids are watching Twitch, that’s their TV, there is an infinite number of channels on it. If your favorite show gets canceled, you don’t just throw out your TV, you find another show, and that’s what they did. They found other streamers, many of whom we represent, so thank you Ninja, that was great.

And we are seeing extreme success for some of our guys and extreme growth for some of our guys because all these kids needed a new thing to watch and it’s been — I think as they grow and as they become my age and then their kids, etc., etc., we are in a place where there is room for competitors, I think Mixer will do well; it’s not like Ninja is not doing well, but I think that Twitch is at the heart of entertainment in a lot of ways for the next decade or so.

Joe Patrice: What is the occupation of a streamer like there, like when you are representing these folks, what are they doing; I assume it’s sponsorships and stuff like that, that’s just a world that’s foreign to a lot of folks?

Ryan Morrison: Oh yeah. I mean they make more money than you can comprehend honestly, because there are so many revenue streams. So yes, we are constantly doing six-figure deals, seven-figure deals sometimes for these streamers, for them just to hold up a product and say hey, buy this, because they have such — so many followers and so many die-hard fans that do what they say that a yearlong campaign for somebody is worth that kind of money to them.

They used to spend $10 million on a Super Bowl commercial, right, so for a sliver of that you get more eyeballs and more consistent eyeballs with diehard supporters of your brand, it’s a no-brainer choice. So brands are starting to figure that out and come here.

Now, that said, that’s one avenue, the other is if you watch one of these streams, they are free to watch. However, you can subscribe for $5 a month up to $50 a month and that gives you different perks. Sometimes the perks are as simple as you get to chat in the chat room and sometimes the streamer will say hi to you. Other times they will send you a t-shirt, whatever it might be, there is different levels and they get the lion’s share of that split of when people sign up and subscribe to them. So if someone has half a million subscribers at $5 a month each, you can do the math there, it’s insane.

Now, that’s again only one. The other thing is people watching these streams just straight up donate money. They just click a button saying have $20, there is no perk, there is nothing in return. It’s just oh my God, please say my name. I gave you $20, can you give me a shout out and that’s all it is, but that is constant and rampant.

Joe Patrice: Wow.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, we chose the wrong profession my friend.

Joe Patrice: I know. Yeah, no, obviously this podcast is a lot like that.

Ryan Morrison: Oh yeah, thank you for picking me up in your jet this morning by the way.

Joe Patrice: Wow. So that’s fascinating and I assume that’s — you represent them more as part of the talent agency part of your business.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, so the talent agency is actually a totally separate business, it’s all the same overlap of clients and industry, but it’s different partners, different staff, different everything and yeah, they represent a ton of eSports players, we represent the top players in most games. We represent a ton of streamers.

(00:25:04)

But like Allison and Keith who I mentioned earlier at the law firm, they have nothing to do with the agency other than legal work here and there. Yeah, it’s been pretty exciting.

Same way over there, once we started helping these kids as lawyers, and they are not kids, they are 18 to 26, once we started helping them as lawyers, they said hey, that was awesome, you got me paid, that’s awesome, you figured out this contract to help me with this dispute, but can you negotiate the next one? Can you find me a sponsor? And very quickly we realized I can, but I need to get a talent agency license and I need to figure out a new business model.

So yeah, I don’t sleep. I have those two different businesses.

Joe Patrice: Wow. That’s incredible. And again, all of this is from the first time we talked till now, you were just beginning to figure out how to get bills paid basically the last time we talked.

Ryan Morrison: The last time we spoke I was in a bedroom, not because of a pandemic, it’s because I had no company yet. I saw a lot of success early on, but keep in mind, I didn’t charge anybody anything. I was working for free for two years, all but living on a friend’s couch until this really started to turn into something, and when I became comfortable with what I was doing without outsourcing it or without calling a mentor, that’s when we turned it into a business, like I said, about five, six years ago.

Nowadays with the people who work here and just what I have personally touched, I don’t think there is anything in digital entertainment we have not worked on and worked on quite a bit. So we have giant big law firms calling us constantly to co-counsel or advise on matters that have been brought to them, which is always frustrating because I know how much they are upcharging our work, but fair enough, I wish they would call us direct sometimes, but that’s happening more and more too.

I mean as you google around in this space, you see how much we have done and where our victories are and we try to be the good guys. Even the Video Game Attorney stuff when I started, the other attorneys in the space working in digital entertainment were upset by that of course, but I actually flew out to the guy who was known as “Game Attorney” in Seattle and I asked him if it was okay if I changed my Twitter handle to that and that’s all I have ever done. I don’t put it anywhere else.

But it’s fun and people use it here and there, but I am a video game attorney, not the Video Game Attorney, and it’s a great industry of really smart people, it’s a small industry and I am looking forward to it growing. When we first talked no one knew what video game law was; now I am not exaggerating when I tell you we get a 100 résumés a month.

Joe Patrice: I remember a few years before we first talked, I remember that one of the big banks, I am out here in New York obviously so I interact with that world a lot, one of the big banks finally opened a desk to do research on the video game companies and everyone thought, what a crazy little thing. And the response was you understand this is bigger than all but one or two of the film industry that we have been covering for years, why haven’t we been covering this. And I was like wow, that’s a sign of how weirdly this industry even as it was getting huge was viewed as something of a sideshow when it really was becoming a big, big business.

Ryan Morrison: And it still is. I mean currently video games make more than music, movies and TV combined, that’s insane, but if you go ask a traditional entertainment attorney what do they think of the video game space, they usually laugh it off as that’s fake law or that’s a fad.

Most of the opposing counsel we deal with are doing so begrudgingly because they don’t understand why is my movie star client signing into this game and when we are negotiating the deal on the other side, we get everything we want, it’s insane.

The test for if your attorney knows the space is, we call it The Test, because if they call it the Facebook, or the Twitch or the entertainment, that means they don’t know what they are talking about.

Joe Patrice: No, that’s a fair test. Yeah, no, I mean that’s been true forever. I absolutely remember old people referring to the TV, so,

Ryan Morrison: Are you a gamer yourself?

Joe Patrice: So not hugely, but I mean I have systems and play, but I have not been — as I have gotten older I have been not as aggressive about it. I was always more into the strategy, so I was the sort of person who would play Civilization for 12, 13, 14 straight hours.

Ryan Morrison: Now is a good time to do that.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. So those were the kind of games that I was into when I used to play a ton. I actually am still slowly and surely, and I know this game has got to be like four years old now, I am slowly and surely working my way through Witcher 3, so I have that.

Ryan Morrison: That is an amazing game by an amazing studio and that is a good choice.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it’s great, but I mean I don’t have a ton of time, but I am slowly — I am getting close to the end I am pretty sure, but by end I mean of the story, not of the 8,000 Side Quests that I have had.

(00:30:04)

Ryan Morrison: That’s right. And then you can watch the Netflix show when you are done.

Joe Patrice: I have watched the Netflix show, that’s actually what got me doing it again. I had been off of it for a couple of months and then I watched the show and went oh, I should get back to churning through that.

Ryan Morrison: Yeah, it’s nice to say part of my job is playing games sometimes.

But back to those résumés we are getting all the time, it’s not the whole job. We work very long hours and very hard here, and it’s funny when you get the intern who is like oh yeah, I love Sonic, I just want to come here and play games all day. Well, but you are obviously not looking at reality here. Drafting privacy policy is fun, is not.

Joe Patrice: Right. So what’s the game you are looking forward to next?

Ryan Morrison: The Final Fantasy VII Remake that’s coming out soon, because I am the reason the entertainment industry broke. I am nostalgia. I want to go see the reboot, I don’t care. I am the reason Hollywood stopped making new ideas.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Ryan Morrison: But I am very excited for that Remake, yes.

Joe Patrice: Excellent. Well, great to check in with you. We should check in with you more often than from the beginning to this point in your career. So we will chat again sometime soon.

But thanks for joining us today from your pandemic bunker.

Ryan Morrison: My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me again. And yeah, always happy to talk some games.

Joe Patrice: Absolutely. And thank you all for listening. You should be subscribed to the show, you should be giving it stars and reviews, all those things. You should be listening to all the other shows from the Legal Talk Network.

Ryan Morrison: Not just stars, 5 stars only.

Joe Patrice: Good point, good point, 5 stars only, and write something, because people know that 5 star — the algorithm knows that 5 stars is easy, actually writing words is hard, so they give that — that actually gets a little bit of an extra boost.

You should be listening to all the other shows of the Legal Talk Network. You should listen to The Jabot, which is Kathryn Rubino’s show. You should be reading Above the Law. You should follow; I am at @JosephPatrice, you are @videogameattorney, right, or is it —

Ryan Morrison: I am actually just @Morrison right now, which is very difficult when the Prime Minister of Australia is an evil man with the same name.

Joe Patrice: Why are all these fires happening?

Ryan Morrison: I get these messages all day. Yes, seriously. @Morrison on Twitter, that’s me.

Joe Patrice: Okay. We will talk to you next week. Until then, see everybody later.

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