After George Conway’s most recent salvo against Donald Trump, Joe and Elie discuss the curious relationship of the senior Wachtell lawyer and Trump’s senior aide. Is it possible that lawyers make for more harmonious relationships? The gang also discusses the Mueller Report one day before its release. See how the predictions match up with reality!
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Above the Law – Thinking like a Lawyer
The Odd Couple
Intro: Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer with your hosts Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice, talking about legal news and pop culture, all while thinking like a lawyer, here on Legal Talk Network.
Joe Patrice: Hello, welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I am Joe Patrice from Above the Law, with me is Elie Mystal.
Elie Mystal: I’m in so much trouble.
Joe Patrice: Uh-oh, what did you do? I mean, I actually think I know what you did, but I’m like, this is how the sausage is made here, folks. I actually know what he’s going to say, but I’m feigning interest like I need to hear it again, go on.
Elie Mystal: I’m lucky to be alive, I suppose.
Joe Patrice: Yes.
Elie Mystal: Because I almost set my house on fire.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, you did.
Elie Mystal: So, regular listeners who have listened to this all the way through might know that I do have a bit of a smoking habit. I’m about half-a-pack-a-day smoker. I had actually quit for quite a few years and I started again. On Election night 2016, it was when I started again, so I’m at a half pack. I am not advocating it, don’t smoke or start before you are going to die.
Anyways, so I’m at home and earlier in the fall, my outside ashtray kind of blew over and it broke itself and whatever. Instead of replacing it I was just kind of like, it’s going to be the winter and the spring, I’m going to need to buy a new patio furniture for various reasons. I was like I’ll just get another ashtray then, so over the winter I have been and when you know where this is going, this sounds so incredibly stupid, I’ve been ashing in like a little hollow under my stoop.
So, two days ago, Tuesday afternoon, I threw my cigarette butt down in the little hollow went back inside, for about half-an-hour until I noticed, the smell of burning plastic, because obviously some leaves had gotten in the hollow and they caught on fire and then that caught on my plastic trash-bin which then started off a trash fire, and of course, if you live in the suburbs, you are supposed to turn off your hose water during the winter so your pipes don’t freeze, so I had no water outside, so I am like running in and out from the house. I finally kind of, I depressed the blaze but the trashcan and the hollow they are close to the side of my house, so that side of my house was smoldering, so I had to actually call the fire department to make sure that I didn’t burn the house down.
Joe Patrice: Palsgraph takes only.
Elie Mystal: And it was just — it was — and of course like it was fine but then like the Fire Chief is like, just looking at the cigarette butts and he was just like I think you know what your problem is, right? And I’m like, yes sir. It was just — and then like I had this like hours because merely afternoon I work from home most days, I have these hours, waiting for my wife to come home, which, I mean it felt like, I was like eight and I like broke mom’s china cabinet like just these hours of just like what is my wife going to say, when she gets home and sees that I have almost burned the house down?
Joe Patrice: What did she say?
Elie Mystal: She wasn’t happy. Well, she had the classic text after I told her over text as I am a responsible adult and her text back to me after that whole story was, I’ll buy a new trash can off of Amazon when I get home.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, so that was the — I’m not man I’m just disappointed text.
Elie Mystal: Right, right.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, that’s fair. Well, smoking is something you shouldn’t be doing, but it’s one of those things that occasionally you do and you step away from your desk to go smoke, and when you step away from your desk you can miss calls.
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Elie Mystal: That was the best one ever.
Joe Patrice: Thanks.
Elie Mystal: I didn’t even see that coming. I thought, oh, I thought you were going to make some joke about me like missing work while I was —
Joe Patrice: When I had that blank glazed over look in my eye while you were telling story, it wasn’t just that I was bored, I was already in the zone, waiting for the moment where I could transition.
Elie Mystal: That was brilliant.
Joe Patrice: Thank you, this is what I live for.
Elie Mystal: So, besides fire safety, what are we talking about today?
Joe Patrice: Well, we can talk about a lot of things. I’m going to segue — let’s just talk about legal news of the week. I’m going to segue given that we have — you are from a legal household and sometimes you do things that make your wife mad and you and your wife don’t necessarily agree. So I just want to let you remember that it can get worse, you could be the Conways.
Earlier this week we started getting flurry of texts from Of Counsel at Wachtell, Lipton George Conway explaining in deep fairly armchair. I think that’s not really fair because all therapists I guess sit in chairs, but you get the point armchair psychology about how he’s diagnosing Trump’s mental condition which resulted in Trump responding with calling him a total loser.
Elie Mystal: Loser, total loser.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, so that’s going on, meanwhile Kellyanne is still working and writing all of these things, presumably the total loser line, and so we’ve got this couple who have to find a way to live together despite the fact that they’re fighting back for and then this morning George Conway went on a long series of tweets about the — shall we say, let’s just say I get the impression he doesn’t like Trump very much.
Elie Mystal: So I am of the opinion that this entire Conway kerfuffle is just fake news. I understand that people are tessellated.
Joe Patrice: Can I clarify something just before we get there, fake news you mean that in the context of it is something we shouldn’t be worried about but we’re focused on for no bad reasons.
Elie Mystal: Yes, and in the context of that this couple has an actual like this is somehow affecting their marriage. I don’t believe that for one go**amn second because while people might be tessellated about the bedroom shenanigans of what happens when your wife’s boss is making fun of the husband and — people need to understand that George Conway is not your friend. George Conway is not to hero. Yes, he is a never-Trumper, yes he has spoken out strongly and eloquently about the dangers that Donald Trump himself the person presents to the country.
But make no mistake, Kellyanne Conway’s political aims and George Conway’s legal aims, are working in perfect concert. The policies that Trump pushes upon the rest of us that Kellyanne Conway helps him push up on the rest of us are exactly the kind of policies that George Conway also pushes on us through his preferred method of changing the nature of the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court.
George Conway was in the tank for Neil Gorsuch. He was in the tank for Brett Kavanaugh and if Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies George Conway is going to show up in the tank for Amy Coney Barrett, alright? So these kinds of conservative justices who do nothing but kind of rubber stamp he hopes, Trump’s policies or why George Conway is here.
Alright, the conflict between potentially Kellyanne Conway and George Conway is not one of substance, it’s just one of style. George Conway would rather his Republicans be a little less overtly racist, right? George Conway misses the dog whistle. He doesn’t care the policies he is there for.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s right. I have a different take in a second, but just to go off on that one I do think there’s something to be said there, right, but there is a — and there is some level to which you’ll have to admire it. There are electoral realities that we’ve talked about in the show before particularly in that Avenatti episode.
There are electoral realities and there are multiple ways of getting majorities in some of those states, and one of the ways that the Donald Trump campaign decided to go with a campaign that she was the Campaign Manager of, decided to go with was overt racism. That is a way to win those states if you want to go that route.
And on some level it’s admirable that George seems to want a Republican Party that does a lot of bad things for various people, but he likes that second level bad thing, that thing that he can justify in his head that, no, no, no, it’s not that I am against bad people, just affirmative action just put everyone on the same equal pay, he is that kind of guy, he is knocked down for the overt racism, which is on one hand naïve, on the other hand not enough to make him your friend for all the reasons you said.
There’s a small part of at least kind of admirableness to somebody who can look in the eye, the possibility of all their dreams coming true and being realized, and say, yeah, but I am not comfortable with that, which is kind of what’s going on here.
Elie Mystal: Is it? What has Conway given up?
Joe Patrice: I mean, Conway’s position is he would like a world in which this was not the nominee. What I think he is wrong about is he thinks that a nominee that he would like would win. I do not think that will be true.
Elie Mystal: Did he vote for Hillary Clinton? Is George Conway going to come out in favor of the Democratic nominee?
Joe Patrice: Whether he comes in favor of, he’s not going to be for this person, but that’s also completely besides the point. The point is his vision of a party is one that is not overtly racist that they are just quite, they pursue policies that have racist impacts, but they have in their own twisted heads intellectual reasons they think those aren’t racist, they are wrong.
But those are things that they think, but the overt baiting, the sort of stuff that Kellyanne and Donald Trump did, I think is probably the only way for a candidate to be nationwide election successful within the Republican Party. He does not think that’s the way they should go as a party and that’s something to at least give them credit for.
Elie Mystal: All that is, is saying, I don’t think we should kill babies. I want a nice baby steak every now and again, I just don’t think we should kill them. How do you think the baby ends up on your plate?
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and once again you have managed to not only conflate things but then create weird hyperbolic analogies that make no sense. It’s not at all that sort of situation, it’s very much a situation of just there are people who have different opinions on where things should go.
I mean, we have talked to them. There are committed conservative folks who legitimately don’t think that the policies they push for have the negative impacts they do. They may be incorrect about that but they are not evil about that, whereas there are also ones that you meet who are overtly evil about it.
Like I have talked — like the people that you have interacted with over our lives we have known several who are actively bad actors whereas we have also known some who just are completely out to lunch on certain things and I think he is the latter.
Elie Mystal: But I think — where I disagree and where I guess I would probably disagree with myself from ten years ago, is the level of complexity those people that —
Joe Patrice: Oh yeah, complexity for sure.
Elie Mystal: And what we have seen and what George Conway is a part of is exactly the kind of structure that has allowed a person like Donald Trump to exist in the first place.
Joe Patrice: Oh sure.
Elie Mystal: Now that Donald Trump does exist he doesn’t like what he sees. Now that Donald Trump is showing is basically holding up a mirror and showing these people what they are, they don’t like what they see.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: So now they are like, oh, this is terrible, but they are not willing to do anything to stop him.
Joe Patrice: Well I mean —
Elie Mystal: And it’s because they are not willing to give up on the policies that created him.
Joe Patrice: Well, again, now — yeah, I mean, I think we are in the same place. I think that that’s the point though. A very, very prominent person spending all of their time undermining the administration is a thing. Certainly there are people doing less. Your complaint makes a lot more sense for the hand-ringing Ben Sasses of the world than it does for a George Conway type because the former is somebody who will tsk-tsk and then vote for everything and say I’m voting for it because it’s the right thing to do. This guy is just throwing bombs all over the place about this guy is unfit for office, that’s a very different discussion.
Elie Mystal: Until another judge’s episode at which point Conway will toast the freaking line.
Joe Patrice: I mean, yes, he still wants the judges that he wants, but that’s a — again, there is a bunch of factors here, one is, he is on a different philosophical plane than we are, that’s true and that’s not changing. The question is, how far it’s the untouchable’s question? What are you prepared to do? He is not prepared to go that next step and the fact that somebody like that is vocal, is useful to the extent that it portends and reaches out to other people who may be those defectors going forward.
Elie Mystal: Who all go to — for Trump the first time and will most likely all go for him again.
Joe Patrice: Well, if that were true which I don’t — which no poling seems to suggest, if that were true then so be it, but then this was all completely meaningless, but I don’t think that’s true. I see in those scenarios in which that’s likely whether or not his vote matters given that he lives in an area of the country that will not matter one way or the other, that’s a more of an electoral college question is another thing, but yeah, like his discomfort that he is public with is something that instead of completely writing off should be something worth noting and worth exploiting. That’s where a canny person would say if there are people within that situation who have these feelings already, that can be played upon, there is other people who are feeling those things, that is something that can be exploited whether it’s exploited to get those people to vote or to get those people to not vote.
Those are the kinds of fizzers that you look for and somebody willing to undermine his wife’s campaign by making clear that those fizzers exist even within the same household is a valuable thing.
Elie Mystal: You are giving so much credit for undermining. All he is doing is throwing some bombs on Twitter and writing some —
Joe Patrice: What the hell do we do, like that’s a thing that’s all we do and we think what we do has some value, so let’s go ahead.
Elie Mystal: Well, I don’t know that I agree with that.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, well, by the way the false modesty meter that you are hearing right now is a sound effect, that is — no, no, it’s Elie who believes he is literally the most important person in the world.
Elie Mystal: I do not think that what I do is particularly important. A person like George Conway is in a position to do a lot more than me and all he does is what I do.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, but more people read it. So the point is but that wasn’t really what we were trying to get at here. The issue of how they operate and can deal with disagreement, I find fascinating from a legal perspective as I find that disagreement is something that I find difficult to maintain amongst the lawyers. I feel like there is a drive even amongst the stereotype of litigators who always want to fight. I don’t think it’s necessarily true. I think there is a drive to get to certain core set of facts and then quibble over the interpretation, but I think there is a drive amongst all lawyers, transactional, it’s always about making a deal.
Litigation even I think it’s about reaching a set of disputed facts that you can then work off of. So I think it’s got to be weird and incredibly difficult for somebody to live in a situation where you have fundamental disagreements at that level where you cannot even agree on the mental fitness of the person you’re standing for. That strikes me as something that’s got to be in their heads and that partially gets to when I say fake news about this kerfuffle. I mean it very differently, I think I’m going to go ahead and say I’m a Conway truther, I do not think there is a gap between them.
I think whether whatever it is I think that they are on the same page, I think she’s the source of leaks for him that he then tweets about. I think that she is keeping options open by having a second front within her own house —
Elie Mystal: I knew —
Joe Patrice: I’m on the conspiracy train.
Elie Mystal: You are one of these guys, yeah, no.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: Because I’m the one saying that there is no disagreement between them. I’m saying that because they both fundamentally like what the mother**ker does.
Joe Patrice: Right.
Elie Mystal: You’re saying, oh no, this is like her — this is her deep way of keeping — she wants to be employable and this is how she is going to keep doing it —
Joe Patrice: Yeah, you’re trying to write-off the disagreement by creating some like wild conflation to get to some root causes. I’m actually saying like there is a —
Elie Mystal: Active conspiracy.
Joe Patrice: — straight up active agreement between them to keep this going, I think that yeah.
Elie Mystal: I don’t think it’s that hard to disagree with your wife on a lot of things. I do it all time and what my wife and I generally do with is —
Joe Patrice: Right, but your wife is right all the time —
Elie Mystal: No, not all the time —
Joe Patrice: And it always gets to the point where she ends up being right. Now, I mean, have seen it in action.
Elie Mystal: This is a hard week for me to make this argument because of the house fire, but for the most part it’s about all forms, I mean that’s how — my wife is also a lawyer and that’s how we had.
Joe Patrice: Right.
Elie Mystal: We have a disagreement, there is a barrel of forms and basically whoever fills out the form first gets to — my — I don’t want to say right now, my child’s name was not the consensus name.
Joe Patrice: No, it wasn’t, it was a shock.
Elie Mystal: No, somebody was under duress after giving birth to our child and somebody else was given the Birth Certificate Form so —
Joe Patrice: So right, so yeah, it was a battle of forms. Now I would like to encourage any law students who heard that hypothetical to muse whether or not somebody in that situation was taken advantage of it away where that makes that form not actually valid but by all means go on.
Elie Mystal: So yeah, I mean I think look, lawyers disagree — lawyers that are married to each other disagree all time and I feel like it’s — I feel like lawyers who disagree all the time actually had at least a language with which to kind of meet out those disagreements within the context of their marriage.
I feel like is the — I feel like it’s the poor staff who don’t have any legal training that when they fight — they think they are fighting for real — like lawyer couples understand that some of this fight is just for show. Their arguments that I win or my wife win, not on the merits just on —
Joe Patrice: Jurisdictional questions, yeah.
Elie Mystal: — standing like that can actually like that can when we’re let’s say — it’s a birthday party situation and we disagree about how the parenting should have happened during the birthday party. Well, if somebody was at the birthday party and somebody wasn’t, then the person who was at the birthday party has standing and that like that short circuits the entire argument.
Joe Patrice: Well, I don’t know about. Okay, I would’nt have gone with a standing thing. I would’ve gone more with an appellate review issue, like it is not de novo like there has to be clear error. If you sat at home —
Elie Mystal: Right.
Joe Patrice: — for you to criticize.
Elie Mystal: Exactly like you do have to give — the person who was at the birthday party deserves the widest deference.
Joe Patrice: Right — no, no, I like where this is going. We — that’s actually something we should work on is a handbook of legal doctrines and how they can help you —
Elie Mystal: In your marriage.
Joe Patrice: — in your marriage. Yeah, I know, so I’m already thinking about latches.
Elie Mystal: Can we talk about Mueller?
Joe Patrice: Yeah, sure, he is a guy.
Elie Mystal: There is a chance that by the time this episode airs, the Mueller Report is out.
Joe Patrice: That is a sentence that we could have said for any of the last 60 episodes of the show; but by all means, tell me why?
Elie Mystal: Do you think — well, okay, so the thing that really – look, the media has been for — as you say — and really especially in the last three or four months the media has been constantly telling us, the Mueller Report is coming, the Mueller Report is coming, the Mueller Report is coming. I have been reluctant to believe that because I had to believe that the Mueller Report cannot end until Donald trump Jr. is either interviewed or indicted.
I do not see how you delve into an investigation of the Trump campaign and Russian collusion without interviewing Donald Trump Jr., unless he is the target at which point you need to indict him.
However, the media seems very convinced that it is coming soon. Multiple prosecutors in Mueller’s office have left, they are leaving, he is clearly staffing down, there is a new Attorney General, a new Sheriff in-charge if you will, Bill Barr who might be putting some pressure to wrap things up. We know that Mueller does not want to release his report in a way that will seem to influence the election because we know he is a better human being than James Comey, so the window —
Joe Patrice: Also an unfair claim, but go ahead.
Elie Mystal: — the window feels like we’re coming up on the window for when this report could be released. The thing that has kind of finally pushed me over the edge is that Neal Katyal former Solicitor General under President Obama, yesterday on Twitter so when we were recording this yesterday, on the first day of spring on Twitter, just randomly on Twitter did a tweet storm about five things to keep in mind when you read the Mueller Report which make me feel what do you know, Neal? So, I guess that is a long-winded way of asking, Joe, do you think this is coming actually soon now? Knowing for well that it could be out by the time people hear this.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, may be, but I mean that’s a thing. I really feel like the odds have been in that — as I said for the 60 shows we could have said the same sentence and I think it’s been true for a while. I mean, the first set of prosecutors that Mueller started letting go in transitioning out of the office, started happening, what six, seven months ago, where key figures were leaving and that was a sign, so not really sure that means a whole lot.
A lot of the current speculation is there was a filing in which Mueller’s office asked for a delay in another matter because this week is going to be too busy for us. Sure, on the other hand they got a lot of things going on all the time, so maybe this week is too busy for totally different reasons. I mean it could easily have happened. It’s going to happen in one of these days. It’s going to be a clear shot out of the blue whenever it does, because we’ve been conditioned to think it’s coming within the next 20 minutes for the last several months. So, yeah, if it happens, it happens, if it doesn’t I won’t be shocked either.
Elie Mystal: Do you think there will or won’t be another round of indictments before he concludes. I am on team indictment. I still think that when I read that story about the — you often seen it more time till April 1st, because they’re going to be busy for the rest of March, like I think there’s going to be another round of indictments coming before the report can be — before his work is done.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean I definitely don’t think there is any plan nor would it necessarily be prudent to put out a report prior to issuing all the indictments you feel you can release, you can leverage, because why would you do that, like why would you — it would screw up the whole process if you did something like that. So, yeah — no, I think and that’s another reason why I’m not entirely convinced that it’s coming, I don’t know. It just seems like something people are hopped up on, but I don’t, I don’t know.
Elie Mystal: When it comes out do you think it’s going to be clear because I think speaking of how people have been conditioned, I mean people I think have been conditioned to think that there’s going to be a smoking gun in there that shows, Donald Trump in the library with a candlestick, and I don’t see that at all.
Joe Patrice: Now, Paul Manafort is going to be carrying some candlesticks I think, but I mean, yeah, like —
Elie Mystal: License plates.
Joe Patrice: — there’s not a lot of, I mean, that’s the other thing, I think that some of the people who’ve been criticized as being pro-Russia, I don’t really think that some of the journalists are being claimed as pro Russia folks.
I don’t necessarily think they are pro Russia but I do think they are sounding a note of caution that I find, that I kind of buy, which is — and these are people who follow Russia a lot as journalists and have always been somewhat skeptical of the collusion story and one of the reasons is they are like, yeah, we cover these people, they are not that smart.
It’s important to remember that a few years ago we had a spy ring of Russians here in New York that were doing like 40’s dead drops and had no idea what they were doing and were caught because they went to a coffee store, like they’re not good at this, and the issue —
Elie Mystal: And Trump isn’t good either.
Joe Patrice: Well sure, but the point is that the idea that there is some like grand plan behind everything, strikes these people who follow Russia closely as a bit far-fetched because Russia is kind of a mess. Their position is more. I’m sure lots of bumbling people try to do lots of bumbling things which does not make it necessarily any less of a crime, but the idea that there is a grand assault on democracy that’s coordinated from the top that’s like as scary like that, that’s probably not true, and I think there is probably a lot to that.
So to that extent, yeah, I think what we are going to find is that people like Manafort took advantage of influence peddling to try and get deals. I think there might be some other people who did the same. I think we’re going to end up thinking that that famous, infamous meeting about the Magnitsky Act is going to be one of those situations not necessarily coordinated but a situation where some bumbling actor caught a bunch of other bumbling actors, trying to do something that was supposedly going to impact the election.
Those things are still crimes. I don’t think that they rise to this kind of chaos level of respect or I guess actually, no, chaos is good, that’s the bad guys from Get Smart. Chaos level is actually more accurate, so I am like bumbling attempts to do some things, I think — and those are crimes, but the fascination with this report is though it’s going to be like and that’s when in 1987, he became the Manchurian Candidate for Moscow like that’s not going to be the case.
Elie Mystal: I’ve always been more excited about the parts of the investigation than Mueller has already farmed out SDNY —
Joe Patrice: Oh, yeah.
Elie Mystal: SDNY is where all Trump’s money is and so I always think that is — puts Trump in more legal jeopardy than anything Mueller can do. I do honestly think that the thing that I will be reading from that report is what do we know about the Trump family, how implicated are Don Jr. and Eric and Ivanka, I think Tiffany is in the clear for the most part.
Joe Patrice: Yeah — no, we are team Tiffany here, yeah.
Elie Mystal: Yeah, and if there is going to be any kind of legal criminal liability for his family members like if somebody because we know that Trump doesn’t like e-mail, he doesn’t like — he doesn’t — he only puts stuff on Twitter, he doesn’t take a lot of notes, we know he doesn’t read, I don’t think that you are going to have Trump again, I don’t think you are going to have enough evidence that Trump was directing it and it’s also based on any kind of MOP book you’ve read, like people like Trump don’t trust anybody except their own family, and there’s been tons of reporting that many people believe that Don Jr. was always the weakest link in that family. If you listen to closely to Michael Cohen’s testimony in front of Congress, he said that one of the reasons why he was brought into the Trump organization at all 10 years ago, was to clean up Don Jr.’s messes.
Joe Patrice: I felt like that was the necessary one for that, go on.
Elie Mystal: I feel like if there was a point person for the efforts in colluding with Russia and having a conspiracy with Russia to change the election or to influence the election, Don Jr. was somewhere bumbling f**k at the heart of it.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, that’s fair. That certainly was supposedly the person who was in that Magnitsky meeting. The Magnitsky meeting is the term for the Magnitsky Act which was what the person was trying to get overturned at whatever point is, your lawyers.
Elie Mystal: Now lawyers call that meeting the Trump Tower meeting.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, so any way –so that’s happened. So yeah, maybe it will happen, may be it won’t, you know. Assuming it doesn’t happen, I think we can safely say that next week we will record a show where we start getting at some of the great decision e-mails that we have been getting from folks, so —
Elie Mystal: Yes.
Joe Patrice: — keep those coming, people. We’ve got a bunch. We’ll start with the first round of them, next week assuming the world doesn’t collapse between now and then which I think we determined is a 50-50 shot, but otherwise we’ll get to the first round of them, keep them coming, that is to send to [email protected]. Your questions if you’re like, I’ve got a partial scholarship to this good school but I’ve got a full to this slightly less good school, what should I do, will just give you our take and take it for whatever its worth, so there you go.
Elie Mystal: Absolutely, assuming I don’t light myself on fire.
Joe Patrice: That’s true, there is always that risk. So, on that note I’m going to try and get out of the office as long as you are still here.
So with that said we are going to go. You should be following Above the Law. As always you should be subscribed to this podcast. You should be giving it reviews following me @josephpatrice, him @ElieNYC both on Twitter, listening to the legal talk network’s round of shows, listening to The Jabot which is Kathryn Rubino’s podcasting and Book of Business which David Lat hosts from time-to-time and you should be absolutely checking out Smith.ai, our sponsors for this show and with all of that I don’t think that we are done, so talk to you later.
Elie Mystal: Peace.
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