Let’s just talk about this college admissions scandal shall we? While everyone else is talking about Aunt Becky, Willkie Farr’s co-Managing Partner (and former Thinking Like A Lawyer guest) Gordon Caplan is also caught up in this whole scandal.
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Above the Law – Thinking Like a Lawyer
Giving It The Old College Scam Try
Intro: Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer with your hosts Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice, talking about legal news and pop culture, all while thinking like a lawyer, here on Legal Talk Network.
Joe Patrice: Well, welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I am Joe Patrice from Above the Law, with me is Elie Mystal.
Elie Mystal: I am drinking a milkshake.
Joe Patrice: You are drinking a milkshake. I would be more tempted, although I am trying to have a little less sugar right now.
Elie Mystal: It’s like above 33 degrees for the first time in six months. I am drinking a milkshake.
Joe Patrice: Well, I tweeted that the other day, yesterday I saw an ice cream truck on the street and I was like, bold move New York, bold move.
Elie Mystal: It’s time.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I don’t know as though yesterday was really time, tomorrow though should be, should be very warm tomorrow they say.
Elie Mystal: Oh really?
Joe Patrice: Like 62 or something like that.
Elie Mystal: Yes. In part because of my milkshake I am not super angry about anything today.
Joe Patrice: Oh, that’s good.
Elie Mystal: But really today I kind of want to get into the heart of our show, which is what I am furious about, which I assume —
Joe Patrice: So you are furious about the main subject of our show.
Elie Mystal: I believe I am.
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Elie Mystal: It’s amazing.
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I am really working on it as a — like I am taking a lot of cues from like how Marc Maron pulls this off, like he is constantly jumping in his podcast into new ads, so I am trying to be as seamless as I can.
Elie Mystal: No, that was really impressive.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: Even I didn’t know what you were doing as it was happening.
Joe Patrice: What I was about to do? Yeah, yeah, cool, all right. So you are very upset about the thing you are very upset about and so let’s make that the whole topic.
Elie Mystal: Are you not upset about the college admissions scandal?
Joe Patrice: I am upset about that, although I didn’t know that was where we were going, but let’s do that.
Elie Mystal: Whereas were we going today?
Joe Patrice: I mean I don’t know, like we go on tangents sometimes, but yes, for those who aren’t tracking and I don’t know who that would be.
Elie Mystal: Like are you under a rock if you haven’t seen this story.
Joe Patrice: Yes.
Elie Mystal: According to our traffic, you are literally under a rock with no computer if you listen to this podcast, but haven’t read this story.
Joe Patrice: Yes. So the other day federal prosecutors released a massive, massive indictment where they went after upwards of 50 defendants who were all involved in doing unsavory things to get their kids into the colleges of their choice. Things that included, but were not limited to, pretending they were actually NCAA quality athletes or paying people to take the tests for them or —
Elie Mystal: Cheating to get extra time on the tests.
Joe Patrice: Yes, all situations that as far as anybody in this indictment can show the children were blissfully unaware of.
Elie Mystal: A lot of the narrative and the media has been about the high profile people that have been caught. So Felicity Huffman has been brought up; she did this for her child apparently; another actress Lori Loughlin, she is involved in this. But there are also kind of like superstars within various industries on Above the Law, the Co-Chair of Willkie Farr & Gallagher, he has been — he is part of the indictment. He had the most euphemistic leave of absence memo coming out of Willkie over this. Their Hedge Funds Manager, Douglas Hodge, the Hedge Fund Manager.
Joe Patrice: There are other lawyers.
Elie Mystal: So there are a lot of — they are all rich, but there also are a lot of high profile people in specific industries that were caught up in this, which begs the question, and let’s start here, what is wrong with these rich people that they didn’t do the things that rich people usually do to get their kids into college that they had to actually go towards criminal racketeering?
Joe Patrice: If you are interested in me going the kind of full communist route here. I think what this really sets up is, I believe it was Chris Rock who has a routine where he talks about the difference between being rich and wealthy, it’s like Shaq is rich, the guy is signing his checks; he is wealthy. That is a big difference.
If you are, I don’t know, the sort of person that maybe a Fred Trump was, you can like build a building and put your name on it and then your kids get into the school, the Mr. Burns building, Yale and International Airport, to get Larry in, these sorts of situations. That’s something that the 0.001% can do. But the 1%, hey, that’s just not rich enough anymore.
Felicity Huffman has money, but she doesn’t have international airport money and that’s the kind of money that means you are in a boat, where if your children are not quite up to snuff to get into these schools the old-fashioned way, you have to do things that are not legal.
And it’s unfortunate that it is legal too — I mean a good example, over here we are right next to NYU Law School, it has a — in my day we had a Golding Lounge, but there’s a new building, like there’s now a Kushner Lounge, that might have something to do with certain families who have a lot of money that can allow their fail sons to rise up the ladder, but that’s something that the super wealthy can do and the regular wealthy can’t and it kind of highlights that gap.
Elie Mystal: So Charles Kushner can buy Harvard off sufficiently to get Jared into Harvard, but Felicity Huffman cannot buy USC off. She can’t donate the Felicity Huffman black box at USC, so she has got to find some other ways of getting her daughter into school. Other ways that again do not include her daughter like working hard and studying for the LSAT.
You and I have a mutual friend, who is an LSAT tutor.
Joe Patrice: SAT tutor.
Elie Mystal: Who is an SAT tutor.
Joe Patrice: I mean he also does LSAT, but like the more relevant to this question.
Elie Mystal: And one of his posts on Facebook — and he doesn’t all — he is an irascible guy sometimes, but one of his posts on Facebook I thought was exactly on point. He said Dear Rich Parents, I can pretty much guarantee your child a 1450 or better on the SAT and I don’t charge six figures. And he said the only thing is that your child might actually learn something.
Joe Patrice: Right.
Elie Mystal: Like that’s how the wealthy people are supposed to. So you are kind of — you went full on until like you just donate a building and get your kid in school, right?
Joe Patrice: And that’s a problem that we allow that and not —
Elie Mystal: But the way wealthy people really are supposed to leverage their money legally to get their kids into school is to be able to pay for the private tutor and all the prep courses and all of the books and all of the experiences and all of the things that a wealthy child has baked into their privilege to get into these schools, like that’s how they are supposed to leverage their wealth, not through side door, back door, racketeering schemes, just pay the goddamn tutor and in the bargain your kid might learn some words.
Joe Patrice: But what if the kid doesn’t want to learn. I mean one of the things that we saw out there —
Elie Mystal: Well, why don’t they want to learn? I mean that’s the other thing, right, like maybe if you hadn’t spent your whole life paying your kids’ way — paying your kids out of difficulties, maybe they would have developed on their own a desire to want to learn things.
Joe Patrice: Right. One of the things that came out of this that, and I do think that this is a child basically, so maybe they are getting an unfair shake at this, but Lori Loughlin’s daughter, we uncovered videos of her talking about, I really don’t care about school that much, I really have no interest in it. There is something to be said for at a certain level of privilege you are — you don’t necessarily see what the value of getting degrees are. Money is there, you don’t have to work, your job can be going on Instagram and saying you bought something off of Amazon, that is — at that point there is no desire for a degree and that’s something that comes along with wealth too, is kind of an apathy can develop.
Elie Mystal: The Post ran an article today, I forget which kid, but one of the kids whose parents were caught up in this scheme kind of, they ran a whole story talking to the kid on his Manhattan stoop, kind of defending his parents. I mean like yo man, I mean my parents were just doing the right thing, they were just trying to help me out.
Joe Patrice: That’s the brother of one of the kids, yeah.
Elie Mystal: The entire interview, he is smoking a blunt on his stoop.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, okay.
Elie Mystal: I don’t have a lot of patience for the parents and the children in this situation.
Joe Patrice: Hey, he has a 00:09:13 though, like he is working.
Elie Mystal: Tell me — let’s talk a little bit — because if you are a follower of Thinking Like a Lawyer, you know that both Joe and I are sports fans to various degrees and to various sports, but we both particularly like college sports, tell me how this is going down with the college teams?
Joe Patrice: So there are some issues with college teams. It seems as though — well, Stanford has already fired a coach; it is not a coach — I don’t know how many people avidly follow the Stanford sailing team, but the sailing team coach was involved in this.
Elie Mystal: But let’s just back up and talk about how the schemes was working for athletics.
Joe Patrice: Sure. Okay, so as you might expect, there are different standards for athletes to get into schools than other students. A lot of times it is not as though you can be completely dumb as a rock and get in; several athletes have, it shows some degree of minimum requirement meeting. But there is a process by which the school can look at potential athletes and say for the sake of getting them into the athletic program, we will relax their scores in this way and whatever and we will allow something.
So scholarship athletes, which are the ones you know of, that you follow on signing day and so on, that’s a whole different thing. They are getting scholarships, they are being heavily recruited, whatever, but there are also, A, athletics that don’t —
Elie Mystal: Nonrevenue generating sports.
Joe Patrice: Nonrevenue generating sports, and even within revenue generating sports, there are systems by which walk-ons get in. People that the coaching staff says we are not in a position to give this person a scholarship, but we would like to say hey, if you are willing to pay your own way, we will consider letting you walk on.
That’s kind of where this came in, in those two areas. So USC is the school that is the most glaringly screwed by this whole situation, unbelievably so. There were athletic department people on the payroll of this scheme getting upwards of, according to the affidavit that went along with the indictment, upwards of 20 grand a month to be a part of this scheme. What they would do is take some of these rich kids and they would say, this kid could be a water polo kid for us. This kid could be a walk-on to track and field. Some of the things —
Elie Mystal: He is a high jumper.
Joe Patrice: Some of the things that were being done to facilitate that were photoshopped pictures of the kid’s face on real athletes. There was a 5’5” kid who was listed at 6′1″ for basketball purposes I gather. There were three people who got in through the football team apparently, which as one Twitter user pointed out, the real tragedy is Clay Helton was probably relying on those kids.
Yeah, so people were getting in, and in indeed Lori Loughlin’s situation is that her daughter, they put her on a rowing machine and took a picture and then claimed she was a crew member, and that’s how she got into school.
Elie Mystal: One of the negatives that I have been seeing as part of the narrative around this indictment is that it has caused a lot of people to suggest; I saw an article, I think it was on Slate, saying oh, it’s actually college athletics that is the whole problem here and that we shouldn’t have different standards for; I just want to push back on that a little bit, and I am a person who was not blessed with athletic talent.
Joe Patrice: But you were until —
Elie Mystal: Well, sorry, I wasn’t blessed with athletic talent once it got hard, right?
Joe Patrice: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. I just wanted to set the record straight.
Elie Mystal: Once they started throwing curve balls, that’s about where my athletic talent ended.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough.
Elie Mystal: But had I been blessed with athletic talent, there is the feeling, right, there is the implication that it would be a blessing from God or Darwin or whoever does such things according to your belief system, and that it would just be a God-given talent, gifted to me that gave me an unfair advantage over hardworking kids who are doing the right thing by doing their homework and studying.
Do you people have any freaking idea how much practice and time and literal blood, sweat, and tears these student athletes go put into their sports, obviously once they get to college, but even at the high school and even sometimes at the middle school level of honing their skill? This is a significant time suck on their lives.
If you have a kid — and let’s just take your kind of average like co-captain of the high school hockey team, that kid is getting up at 6 o’clock in the morning. His parents are getting up at 6 o’clock in the morning. They drive him to the ice rink, to get his ice time in, then he has got to go through a full day of school, then he has got another actual practice.
Joe Patrice: Probably.
Elie Mystal: After school probably. He is not getting home until 7:30, where he has got carbo-load before he like maybe gets around to his biology homework.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: And if you are going to be that good at your sport, yeah, I think it’s okay if you score 20 points less on the goddamn SAT.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: I think that the real — I think there are a lot of real stories here, but I think one of the real stories here is that could we please stop putting so much goddamn focus on these standardized tests. They are not a great measure of merit. They are not objective. They are racially biased. And a lot of this is happening because you have got parents who think that like oh, there is some other kid getting an unfair advantage to score higher on a test, when really, A, the advantage isn’t real; and B, it’s not unfair. It is not unfair that a student athlete get a little bit of extra consideration for their athletic talent and the work and the time that it takes to hone that athletic talent over somebody who doesn’t do shit but study.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean I hear that and obviously standardized tests is a controversial subject. I am generally one of those people who thinks that they are problematic, but a good idea on paper, something that has execution issues that can always be addressed, but in this instance I don’t necessarily think that that’s a fair issue, because these weren’t kids who were real study hounds and thought gosh, it’s just so unfair the hockey team gets in; these were kids who can’t pass the actual test in the first place who were trying to find a way to get all the benefit that the hockey kids do without any of the work. Or actually I shouldn’t say that. They are not kids who tried to do that; they are parents who did that behind the backs of their children.
Elie Mystal: Right.
Joe Patrice: And so I don’t necessarily think that that’s the problem. I think that what we have here is a really sad tale. I have already talked about the income disparity gap, where there are certain kinds of bribery that we consider okay and certain kinds that we don’t, which is problematic.
I think that you have addressed the athletic issue, which if we do understand that there is a value to privileging certain athletic things, we see the way in which people take advantage of these sorts of loopholes unfairly to the detriment of those kids.
I think there is also something sad going on here, just in the, how do I put this, the ways in which people would think to — I am really struggling, the way in which people would think that letting their children live and face consequences is a problem.
Elie Mystal: Yes. I see where you are going.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, and like that’s the real thing. And I have said before, and I think on this podcast we have talked a lot about how I am one of those people who thinks that all the problems of the world are not the Millennials’ fault; I tend to blame the baby boomers, but looking through this indictment, this is where Gen X seems like we have got a problem. This seems like a uniquely us thing to own, because this is the generation of parents who decided in this instance that it wasn’t good enough for Sally to go to Arizona State.
Okay, I shouldn’t — bad example, probably isn’t good enough to go to Arizona State, but not good enough for them to go to some other school and they had to go to USC, which by the way, I mean it’s a fine institution, it is — I mean I understand people lying and cheating and stealing to get into Stanford, I get that one, but USC?
Elie Mystal: Can I just piggyback? There is one guy in the indictment who was an alumnus of Loyola and according to the — if these allegations are true, basically got himself into a situation of criminal fraud and racketeering for which he will face jail time to get his kid into Loyola, to which I ask, why, why?
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: Like what world are you living in where Loyola is the thing that’s worth committing crimes for, right? And it goes to your point about, I want to piggyback here as well, like part of the problem here is that we live in a society that acts like there are three good colleges.
Joe Patrice: Yes.
Elie Mystal: And there is just not. Look, it’s easy for me to say, I went to one of the three. If there are only three, I went to one of them, so I understand that I am speaking with a little bit of clay feet here. But like there are more than three good colleges in the country and for you to think that if your kid doesn’t get into one of those three colleges that their life is over, it’s so stupid.
And that’s how I get back to your fundamental point that if your kid desperately wants to go to one of the three good colleges and did not have the grades or activities or whatever to get into one of those three good colleges, well, then maybe that’s a good lesson for them to learn at some point. Maybe a lesson that your children need to learn at some point is that they don’t actually get everything they want just because they want it.
Joe Patrice: Right. And that brings us full circle to the thing that we said earlier that there is a degree of apathy at a certain wealth level, where they have never been pushed and told that they need to do things. They don’t need —
Elie Mystal: They were never denied.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, there is nothing that materially they couldn’t have and they —
Elie Mystal: I remember not being able to afford the Nintendo, right? This even goes to — one of my big leisure activities is video games. You actually see this a lot in video gaming, where like the games today are so much easier than the games of my youth, like they are literally just easier games, not only because like they mess with the difficulty levels and you can like put it on easy mode if you want to or whatever, but like, if you think of like an old — like if you put like your average like 12-year-old, he plays video games all the time and you put him on like Super Mario Bros. 1, he will not make it out of the first level and he will end up crying before the end of it. It’s so goddamn hard. He will think the game is broken.
Joe Patrice: I did on a whim throw in the original Legend of Zelda about six months ago and I was astounded at how quickly I was dead. It was really amazing. Like basically once you couldn’t shoot the sword thing, when you are all full of health, once that was gone, you had to kind of hit him exactly right or you were gone, and I was not ready for that, not ready at all.
But yeah, so I get it. But yeah, there is something that needs to be done about breaking down the educational system where we believe that that’s the best you can do.
One of the things, to piggyback on to another legal story from the week, but one that kind of got dwarfed by this, we got the official —
Elie Mystal: There were other legal stories this week?
Joe Patrice: We got the official U.S. News rankings, which are not different than the ones that we talked about, the leaked ones from the week before, but they are there. But that’s one of the things where we got some feedback from it and I wrote an article about some of the feedback we got, where some people said, this is stupid, this school is ranked way below this school but has a higher bar passage rate, yada, yada, and those are all very important things and reasons why our ranking system privileges those things a little bit more.
But at the end of the day —
Elie Mystal: The Above the Law ranking —
Joe Patrice: The Above the Law ranking.
Elie Mystal: –coming out probably in May.
Joe Patrice: Right, exactly. But it also struck me that it’s not so much — the rankings do matter, but they matter in different ways. They matter in showing all that we can really do as somebody trying to gauge the quality of a young lawyer is understand two things about them; where they got in as a measure of that institution’s faith in their skills coming in and how well they did against that cohort.
And that’s why I am one of those people who thinks that if you go to a less than perfect school and are second in your class, that tells us something perhaps even more than somebody who goes to the eighth best school and finishes towards the bottom. Like you see not just where they are, but also where they do within that cohort.
And to that extent, there is a value to the quality of school, but it’s not an end-all be-all, and if you just get into USC and then don’t care about school and don’t accomplish anything there, that counts too and counts in a way where maybe it’s probably better off to just not get that initial marker, to take the road less traveled and go to a small place where — or a bigger place, the ASU of the world which I am using as my stand-in for a bad school, which probably is unfair to ASU, but I also don’t care.
So you go there and then that’s — then you — if you excel against that cohort, then you can go on to do other things, and if you don’t, then you don’t, but like we need to stop thinking that you have to go places.
Now, in this instance truly, and obviously this is speculation, but it appears as though the argument for the Lori Loughlin kid in particular is that she wanted to be an influencer, because we have created a world in which having no actual skills does not mean that you don’t have a job so long as you can tag things in Instagram.
There is some reason to believe that the plot of why they wanted her to go to USC was that it would probably be better for the influencing job to be tied to a brand like USC than actually ASU, which is where they thought she was going to go. So that there adds to the problem, where there actually is a picking, not Harvard, Yale, the schools that we traditionally think of as why there are only three schools, but USC becomes one of those schools when what you are trying to do is build a career of attachment to some lifestyle brand that USC tries to pretend that it is.
Elie Mystal: I want to close with a little lawsuit talk, because the —
Joe Patrice: Because this is the actual legal ramifications of it.
Elie Mystal: Right. So I would just say this to all of our listeners, dear God, don’t sue. You almost certainly do not have a cause of action against anybody involved in these scandals. We have already — I published today, you are reading this next week, so go back and look from what I have already published, there are two Stanford, current Stanford students who are already suing all of the schools and William Singer, who is like the head of the scheme for devaluing their Stanford degree. These are students who got into Stanford. Stanford was one of the schools involved in the scheme and they got into Stanford, but because Stanford was one of the schools involved in the scheme they are saying that the scheme itself devalued their Stanford degree. To put it nicely, that is a dumb argument.
It’s a potential, you could almost understand a claim if they hadn’t gotten into Stanford or if they hadn’t gotten into one of the implicated schools, but given that they did get into one of the implicated schools, they absolutely have no claim, even if they have gotten in, and I think this is by the time you hear this we will probably have already seen the lawsuit from kids who didn’t get into one of these schools, who are suing the school, claiming that their process was rigged and what have you.
We have not seen a claim survive along those lines in various cases and that is because no matter what you might think or no matter what your parents might have told you, you are not deserving, you are not owed a spot anywhere, anywhere, right, like you have no right to the spot so suing that your right to the spot was unfairly denied is not a thing. You can sue — if you are a protected class, you can sue that you were denied based on discriminatory reasons. That’s a thing but I didn’t get in because Felicity Huffman’s daughter did get in is not a thing. Please don’t sue about it because I don’t want to write anymore stories making fun of you.
Joe Patrice: Yeah I mean, the problem is you do want to write more of those stories, so yeah, I mean, maybe your point is that you don’t want our listeners to be the ones doing it but I think you do want more of those stories.
And I mean there is something to be said for — look, it’s tenuous at best but there is something to be said for if the admissions process was gamed and marginal candidates didn’t get in like that it is, it is unfair to the extent that the university purports.
Elie Mystal: Certainly unfair.
Joe Patrice: Right, but to the extent the university purports to follow a — and they’re making a trade claim basically that we follow these practices and in good faith if you apply and meet these practices you would get in, and it’s revealed that that is untrue and that is something of a breach. I see that, I don’t think it will go very far but it is not — it is not the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. I mean, there are way more absurd cases that I’ve come across.
Elie Mystal: No, the Stanford suits — the current Stanford suits —
Joe Patrice: Well, the Stanford suits is by people who actually got in — which —
Elie Mystal: Right.
Joe Patrice: I mean if you got in then clearly you were not —
Elie Mystal: One of the two women — one of the women is suing saying that yes, she got into Stanford and she’s currently at Stanford but she also applied to Yale and she was misled because Yale — she was not aware that Yale’s admissions practices were a warped rigged system as explained through the indictment to which I had to say to her like, first of all, if you didn’t know that Yale was a little bit warp to the submissions process, maybe you weren’t smart enough to get into Yale. I think that’s — it’s one of those things where like if you have to ask how much that thing costs you can’t afford it, right, and the second girl, second woman she’s suing USC. Again, she’s a current Stanford student, she’s suing because she applied to USC and she didn’t get it.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, yeah.
Elie Mystal: You got into Stanford, you already won, you won, you won.
Joe Patrice: I understand I’m eating filet mignon, but I really wanted a hamburger. I like that’s, and yeah, so what we’re saying is that the current named plaintiffs are not the best class representatives that one could have, that’s fair.
Elie Mystal: They are not the perfect plaintiff.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, perhaps there should be some more searching done before getting it on this, but I mean, I assume the lawyers just wanted to be first to file and own their stake of the inevitable.
Elie Mystal: Good job lawyers.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, but yeah, so this case —
Elie Mystal: That’s what I got.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, this case is going on, people will go to jail, we barely touched on the inevitable — very likely end of career of a very important lawyer in New York, Caplan was running Willkie Farr and one would assume if the allegations are true that would be a disbarrable thing.
Elie Mystal: Yeah, he’s done.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, if all these things 00:29:22, right.
Elie Mystal: And I really haven’t heard any of the parents say that they are not so far, right?
Joe Patrice: I mean, the way in which this works — well, not to get legal again on this legal podcast. The way which this worked that is so funny is that cooperating witness number one was the person doing all the crime. So basically as opposed to most situations where like low-level people flip and then they get to the kingpin, the actual kingpin is the one who flipped and then the government just rode him, or her I suppose, but it seems from the way it’s written CW-1 might be a man, rode him to getting every client in the universe. Yes.
Elie Mystal: And even on tape.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: Because he was like I am doing this game. Yeah, that’s — I’m also just impressed at how like — because even on this — I mean we talk so much about Trump and we talk so much about SD and Lion, it’s just — it made me — part of it is the schadenfreude but like it just made me happy to remember that like there is some part of this country we’re like laws are still being upheld and like the wheels of justice are still turning and like it’s not all crap, right, like people are still being caught with for crimes and like we’re not so distracted by Trump and Manafort and Cohen and whatever that the Justice Department can’t still fundamentally work at some level.
Elie Mystal: That was heartening.
Joe Patrice: Yes, it was heartening to learn that the entire world is not just your head, which is the only place where I think that we were concerned about that. I think the rest of us thought it was all working the whole time anyway. So that’s the end of that. So thanks for listening.
You should scribe, write reviews all that sort of thing. Be sure to send us if you are currently thinking about law schools and you are in that process. Be sure to send to [email protected], and flag it with Decision, where you are and what you’re thinking. We’ve already got a few submissions will be able to do a show where we walk through some of the decisions between law schools in the very near future, but keep sending those in.
We are — oh yeah, I am @JosephPatrice, he’s @ElieNYC. Listen to all the Legal Talk Network offerings, The Jabot, and Book of Business, yeah.
Elie Mystal: I just want to put in a quick plug. If you are more interested in my thoughts on the College Admissions Scandal –
Joe Patrice: Oh yeah.
Elie Mystal: Very good piece up in ‘The Nation’ and just go search for ‘The nation’, search for my name or search for College Admissions Scandal, you should find them.
Joe Patrice: Cool, and with all of those things said and thanks to our good friends at Smith.ai for sponsoring this podcast. I think we have now gotten everything covered, so we will talk again in the near future.
Elie Mystal: Peace.
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