Elie and Joe watched the Oscars like everyone else, and when they saw the Best Picture screw up, they immediately thought what every other lawyer thought… blame the accountants. Caleb Newquist, the founding editor of Going Concern joins the show to talk insider accountant baseball on PwC’s embarrassing mistake and why the Oscars won’t fire the firm no matter how bad this looked.
Above the Law – Thinking Like a Lawyer
When Your Accounting Firm Messes Up
Intro: Welcome to ‘Thinking Like a Lawyer’ with your hosts, Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice, talking about legal news and pop culture, all while thinking like a lawyer, here on Legal Talk Network.
Joe Patrice: Hello, welcome back to another edition of ‘Thinking Like a Lawyer’, I’m Joe Patrice from ‘Above the Law.’ With me, as always is my colleague Elie Mystal.
Elie Mystal: Wooh.
Joe Patrice: Yes, so hey.
Elie Mystal: How you be?
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I have been good. I have been good. How about you?
Elie Mystal: I feel like I am writing like rocky right now, I am so ready for these goddamn people.
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: I am writing — and if you allow me to put my head just a little far up my own ass, I am writing basically like a fireball emoji with fingers, like that’s where I am right now. I am so just — just part of – at least I’m trying to be part of a group of people who is trying to point out how evil this person is, and obviously, because of ‘Above the Law’ and because of what we do, my main fight is with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and boy, boy to this boy, I am just dropping to everybody’s laps today.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean, it seems as though it was — well, how should I put this? A poor choice of answering questions, something of a legal snafu on his part.
Elie Mystal: Yeah, I want to get right into the grinding of my gears because I’m so excited to talk about Jeff Sessions. We are recording this right after the Washington Post story dropped about Jeff Sessions — I guess you would have to say perjuring himself in front of Congress during his confirmation hearing.
Joe Patrice: At least you would allegedly say that, yeah.
Elie Mystal: In his confirmation hearing testimony over his contacts from Russia, and what really gets me from a lawyer’s perspective; and I know a lot of our listeners are going to back me up on this. If you actually look at what happened in the sessions, it’s such a rookie, stupid lawyer mistake. Jeff Sessions is in trouble because he didn’t answer the question.
Al Franken asked him blah, blah, blah, there are also stuff about contacts with Russia, if true Senator Sessions what will you do — basically what will you do to prosecute or to investigate these ties, right? “What will you do?” was the actual question. Sessions’ answer is, “I don’t know nothing about no Russians. I never talk to them.” Nobody asked him that, nobody asked him that, and every lawyer who’s been training for trial prep even for a second has been told and counseled and coached not to go beyond the scope of the question.
Jeff Sessions’ man, he should be removed from being an Attorney General not just because he’s racist, not just because he perjured himself, because he’s bad at being an attorney.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a — I think the word “rookie mistake” is a very good one. It’s weird that a lawyer would go out of the way because your answer to your question was, what would you do if this happened, saying I never personally met with anybody, it was not the question, it merely inserts this and that’s from a perjury perspective which if one assumes that’s where this starts headed.
It’s worrisome for him because the difficult thing about proving perjury always is you have to prove the intent, it’s not just that you lied or intentionally misled or misled – it’s that you did it with intent, and it’s hard to get there. But I’ll tell you, volunteering information that didn’t need to be said really gets you a lot of the way toward, well, then why did you volunteer that and that gets —
Elie Mystal: Why to bring up?
Joe Patrice: — that gets a lot towards that intent requirement which is always the hardest part.
Elie Mystal: The Klansman doth protest too much methinks.
Joe Patrice: No, he’s not a Klansman. He thought they smoke too much pot, he actually said that. That was why he said he didn’t like them, an astounding fact that he actually that was his statement on the subject. But yeah — no, it is a rookie mistake. It’s one of the things that makes you wonder like sometimes as lawyers it’s a do as we say, not as we do kind of approach, I think what all of us know that we would have prepped him not to do that, but who among us wouldn’t make that mistake if we were in that situation, you lose track of it.
Elie Mystal: I wouldn’t I mean —
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: When the cops ask me a question, I only answer the question.
Joe Patrice: Fair enough, I guess, I hear that, I’m just a little knowing you, I’m just a little bit suspect that you would not volunteer more information just, because I mean, you’d get on a rush where you felt like you were hearing your own voice and just keep going.
Elie Mystal: Again, that’s not how I act on TV and radio is not how I act in front of law enforcement.
Joe Patrice: True. Although then law enforcement is one thing, but a deposition, especially one that’s gone on for a long time, you develop a level of comfortability, especially when they are people who are your colleagues for years. Like, you would tell, as a lawyer you would say, “Don’t do this”, but at what point does that get lost, and maybe that’s the lesson if I were to pull back here to a practice point, that might be the lesson for aspiring litigators and litigators out there is that you can tell your client a million times, don’t do this, but when they do it, it’s not their fault, like it’s a natural human reaction that even experienced lawyers might make.
Elie Mystal: It really — I mean, I don’t want to move on for this, but if you like old movies one of my favorite is ‘The Great Escape’ —
Joe Patrice: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: — and the guy in ‘The Great Escape’ who is kind of in-charge of teaching all of the detainees how to speak German and teaches them the entire movie, don’t screw up, always speak German, always speak German when a German asks you a question, he gets caught in the end because he doesn’t speak German when the Gestapo tries to trick him, it’s a heartbreaking scene in that movie. Jeff Sessions is part of the Gestapo, why are you making me to vent.
Joe Patrice: Well no, and – yeah — no like —
Elie Mystal: Hey, what are you doing?
Joe Patrice: Well, I mean, I am just a little irritated, you didn’t flag that with a spoiler alert, I mean, for people out there who haven’t seen this movie it’s only been out for like 60 years.
Elie Mystal: Too soon.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, too soon. All right, so the Oscars happened.
Elie Mystal: They did, I saw it live.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, I did too. It was interesting, yeah.
Elie Mystal: One of the things I said is that I will believe anything anybody tells me about what really happened, I’m a total conspiracy theorist on this. I think that what happened was that they wanted to give the white movie the Oscar, so that the Trump voters would be happy with Hollywood and then they figured they would all turn the Oscars off as soon as they heard the announcement, they want to say for the speeches and then they gave the black movie the actual award to not piss off the liberals. I think the Oscars were purposely trying to play both sides of the coin and that’s why this happened, I don’t think this was a mistake.
Joe Patrice: Yeah – well, no, I mean — when I think how to appeal to middle America people who feel a lot of alienation, I say a lavish musical about the greatness of Los Angeles is definitely what I would want to do.
And they instead gave — the award went to ‘Moonlight’ three White producers I think, but nonetheless, it went there, and so, what we wanted to do is talk about kind of the — what kind of news about some of the legal implications of this, like in a very thinking like a lawyer, this isn’t, no one is really going to sue anybody over it but it wouldn’t be funny if they did, but also we wanted to talk specifically about who screwed up, and I think everyone’s coalescing around it was PwC. So we thought we’d bring in our kind of accountant colleague on this, someone who covers that universe the same way we cover the legal universe.
Elie Mystal: Caleb is the Editor-in-Chief of Going Concern.
Caleb Newquist: Hey guys, great to be here. I love talking about accountants and I love movies, so this is a thrill.
Elie Mystal: This must be Christmas for you.
Caleb Newquist: Well, let me tell you, on Monday morning, it was like Christmas morning, I mean, I just — I can’t tell you, I was in bed on Sunday night and Ellie’s description is pretty on point. When they announced ‘La La Land’ my wife like kind of rolled over and said, nah, wasn’t that good? It was ready to go sleep and then suddenly the stage is bum-rushed by everyone and all of a sudden ‘Moonlight’ is the winner, and immediately I started thinking, “Did PwC just fuck that up?” “They just did, right?” And I sat there and even after I turned off the TV, I sat there, and I thought about it, it’s like, “What is going on?” And so, I immediately picked up my phone, I am scrolling through Twitter, and sure enough Joe, I think it was you that made the —
Joe Patrice: It was me.
Caleb Newquist: — yeah, Joe made a crack about Arthur Andersen and I said, “This is going to be bad, it’s going to be bad.” And sure enough, it’s awful for PwC. It’s pretty much the worst thing you could possibly imagine for them.
Elie Mystal: So, Caleb, tell us a little bit about like what’s happening with PricewaterhouseCoopers? How are they metastasizing this information? What heads have rolled — like what’s going on?
Caleb Newquist: So maybe we should start with — do you want to start with the process, do you want to start with the boring stuff, you want to start with the head rolling?
Elie Mystal: Yeah, so Caleb start with the boring stuff. Tell us what was PwC supposed to do and what did they get wrong?
Caleb Newquist: Okay, sure. So PwC tabulates the — I guess the Academy votes, the members of Academy vote on all these awards and PwC’s job is to figure out who the winners are. They have this kind of elaborate process so that only two people know who the actual winners are.
I don’t know exactly the size of the team they use, but it’s small groups and they all count certain amounts of votes, and then it kind of feeds up to the two partners and they are the ones who ultimately know who the winners are. And they are the only two, nobody at the Academy knows, nobody else at PwC knows, and they have to memorize all the winners. And again, they have two sets of envelopes and they take two separate cars to get to the Dolby Theaters, in case somebody gets stuck in traffic. So they have got all these checks and balances around the process. So there is nothing —
Elie Mystal: It is Kiefer Sutherland ‘Designated Survivor’ shit.
Caleb Newquist: Right, exactly. I mean, they really go to — over the years they have gone to really great lengths to make sure that nothing can go wrong. And so during the awards one partner is on one side of the stage and the other partner is on the other side, and they each have a set of envelopes. And I am not exactly sure about how they choose which partner is handing over the envelope for which award; I haven’t read anything about those details.
But essentially what happened is that when Emma Stone received her envelope, she kept it, and that’s what she has told everyone, that’s what she said when she was being interviewed backstage, and for whatever reason the backup envelope for Best Actress in a Leading Role was handed to Warren Beatty by the other PwC partner, and that was incorrect, that was wrong. And there is some speculation that because he was tweeting backstage, that he was distracted and that he — that’s what caused him to hand over the wrong envelope and so not realizing at the time —
Elie Mystal: So the PwC partner was tweeting backstage and handing out envelopes?
Caleb Newquist: Yes. And what’s interesting about that, and again, I have seen conflicting reports, but he wasn’t necessarily supposed to be tweeting backstage. Like he had asked the Academy for permission to do so, and they said no. But then I read a report yesterday that said the opposite, that they encouraged him. So there’s a little bit of contradiction there.
There is no question that he was tweeting backstage. He took a picture of Emma Stone right as she came offstage, but then he deleted after the screw up happened, after the big snafu happened, all of his tweets — he deleted all of his tweets.
But of course the Internet is forever and the pictures got dug up and some more pictures from backstage. Variety published a bunch of pictures from backstage showing him with two envelopes. I mean, the meticulous investigation of this event, I cannot tell you, has been pretty remarkable. I feel as though, and a lot of people have joked about this, but if we had all put our efforts into investigating the Trump cabinet’s connections to Russia, I think we would already be in impeachment proceedings by now. But we have been focusing on the Oscars, which is fine, it’s fine, and the accountants, and I mean it has been quite a thing to watch.
Elie Mystal: So he hands the wrong envelope, we all saw Warren Beatty and Farrah Fawcett being —
Joe Patrice: Not Farrah Fawcett, if it were Farrah Fawcett, it would be on the time machine.
Elie Mystal: Faye Dunaway being kind of unable to think enough on their feet to get out of this problem. Bring me to the rolling head, so what has Pricewaterhouse done?
Caleb Newquist: So about two-and-a-half hours after the ceremony they issued a statement where they determined — the initial statement said that they are investigating, but they took initial collective responsibility. They apologized to everyone.
The next day the Chairman of the firm, a guy by the name of Tim Ryan did some interviews with Wall Street Journal, USA TODAY and kind of said this is what our investigation found, our partner handed over the wrong envelope and that’s how it got out onstage, that’s how it got read.
Since then, it’s Thursday now and the two PwC partners have been removed from the engagement. So they will never work the Oscars again. But PwC is still the auditor or account of record for the Academy, and I personally don’t feel like that’s going to change. I feel like the Academy is going to keep them on, but I think the two partners that were involved, I think removing them was — that had to be done. I am pretty sure the Academy would have insisted on that and PwC made that move.
Elie Mystal: Are these people’s careers going to be okay, because like, I don’t want — do you want the Oscar screw up guys working your account?
Caleb Newquist: You know, that’s a really good question. So Brian Cullinan is the partner who the firm identified as the one who handed over the wrong envelope, and he has been with the firm a long time, 30 years, and so, I mean he has got a good career behind him. I mean he could probably survive just fine. I mean, the public humiliation I think is what I have been thinking a lot about this week. He will get a partner’s pension, all that stuff, he is going to be fine.
The other partner involved, Martha Ruiz, she has been with the firm not quite as long, about 19 years I think is what I saw. And she is a tax partner and tax people are hard to come by, so I think she will be fine too. But I think the public humiliation that they are suffering at the moment is, I don’t know, I mean, it’s pretty brutal.
I mean, when you look at, I think it was both — The Daily News and The Post both had just epic headlines on I think it was Tuesday, and they called them twits and losers and all these names, I mean just relentless. And so that kind of public humiliation is not to be taken lightly. So I think they will keep their jobs, but their dignity has definitely taken a massive blow.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, like my interaction from the legal perspective, so my interaction with the big firms was always usually — well, I guess not always, but 90% of the time it was some sort of a forensic accounting team that we were bringing in on some internal investigation or white collar case that I would be working, and it was one of those things that was very partner specific on our end. It wasn’t so much that we liked one firm; it was that somebody in the chain of our team was like, oh, we trust this partner over there, very individual-based decisions on who to hire and who to not, not so much brand.
But with something like this, from the perspective of clients though, what I worry about was this is the sort of thing that makes maybe not the most savvy client say to the law firm who is like, oh, we are going to bring in PwC to look at this, the client going, well, really, are you sure? That was my takeaway.
Caleb Newquist: I mean, it’s a valid point, and especially for their entertainment practice, PwC I think, it’s in their — the revenues that they derive from entertainment clients is significant, it’s in the billions. And even Les Moonves, who is the highly overpaid CEO of CBS, he gave an interview to somebody and said, if that was my accountant I would fire them. And so there are —
Elie Mystal: Really?
Caleb Newquist: Yeah. And Les Moonves is one of those guys that people listen to, right or wrong, and I don’t know, I mean it’s one of those things where you would kind of wince if that was the situation, if you are saying we are going to bring in PwC, and somebody might go, oh, from the LA office, are you sure? So yeah, I mean there might be some hesitation for a while there. So it’s not an insignificant point.
Elie Mystal: Just to follow up on that, does PwC have the biggest entertainment portfolio of the Big Four?
Caleb Newquist: That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer to that. I mean, because they have the Academy. I know a couple of clients that I saw kicked around included not only the Academy, but the Paramount Studios, which is part of Viacom, which is huge of course. And I can’t remember, I think — I can’t recall any others, but I mean all the firms have pretty significant practices in Los Angeles, but I don’t have any numbers.
Elie Mystal: I am just saying, if I was Ernst & Young I would have a RFP out to the Academy.
Caleb Newquist: Well, it’s interesting that you mention that, because EY has some pretty prestigious award ceremonies of their own; they have the Golden Globes and they have the Emmys. And again, they haven’t really bought into like the overbearing height that PwC did. I mean, I don’t know if you guys noticed this, but PwC really marketed the hell out of this engagement. And EY has — they have done that to a degree, but I mean nothing like what PwC did with the Oscars.
Like PwC has just — they have this Snapchat Gimmick for the last couple of years, where they essentially followed the briefcase around the country, as it traveled from —
Elie Mystal: What?
Caleb Newquist: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh guys. They really milked it for all it was worth. And I mean they gave interviews. I mean, the partners were on CNBC explaining the process and they gave really extensive interviews to all kinds of outlets; Huffington Post. Huffington Post had that great article that was entitled what would happen if the wrong — if someone read the wrong name on stage and it’s with the two partners, interviews with the two partners. And at one point they are discussing what they would do, and the partner Brian, he essentially said, well, we don’t really know, it would be a game time decision, but it’s so unlikely to happen that we don’t have a plan per se to deal with that.
And I mean, it’s just one of those things where you read it in hindsight and you are just like, well, that’s what did it right there, that’s the jinx right there, and I mean it’s just remarkable to read it now because —
Elie Mystal: You are really painting a picture of a firm and a partnership where just the celebrity got to their heads, man. You are like taking us behind the music.
Caleb Newquist: I mean lots of people — I mean the opinion that lots of people have come up with is just like, you have got a firm that had this prestigious engagement and they really, really made a big deal of it. They really marketed it well. And these firms are enormous. I mean they have huge marketing departments that come up with this stuff.
The partners, I mean they — when you read the interviews with the partners, they talk about how much fun it is and they get to meet celebrities and kind of joke. I mean, there’s one picture from a couple of years ago with Cate Blanchett is yanking on the briefcase while it’s handcuffed to his arm or whatever. I mean, they milked it for everything it was worth, and I mean it’s just — I can’t help but laugh, to see it kind of implode this way is just — you just — it’s one of those unpredictable things.
And I wrote this earlier in the week on Going Concern I said, what PwC ultimately failed to do is to plan for the unpredictable, and they had no plan of what to do if the worst possible scenario were to come up.
Joe Patrice: I am still laughing this whole time that Elie made the reference there to behind the music and all my mind jumped to was like things were riding high for PwC, the trouble loomed on the horizon, because where’s success is first in, trouble is first out, like join us behind the spreadsheet. I don’t know, like that was — all I could think is that whole narrative game in my head as soon as he said behind the music.
Caleb Newquist: Oh yeah.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, because the last thing you want out of your accountants is the line, hey, we usually get things right, but if things go wrong we don’t really have a backup plan, that’s not usually what you are looking for in any kind of consultant that you are going to hire.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah. It has been said several times, but the accountants are the people that you don’t want to hear about. When you are hearing about the accountants that usually means something went terribly, terribly wrong.
Joe Patrice: Yeah, actually on that note, to transition to a slightly different story that I wrote this week, Harvard Law is having an issue where a couple of former employees they have now filed criminal charges against because they were embezzling from the school. And the story, as I was reading it was like, well, everything started to unravel when they brought in a new budget director who started noticing discrepancies. And I was like, that’s always the way that — every one of these stories always begins with and then a new accountant showed up. And what I conclude the story with is, my lesson to everyone is, you should constantly fire your accountants every couple of years, because that’s the only way you will know for sure.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah.
Elie Mystal: I wanted to — and you are making it hard, because I was going to kind of close with a defensive —
Caleb Newquist: I mean, you can — by all means. They really need it right now.
Elie Mystal: It was easier before I heard about the Snapchat briefcase thing.
Joe Patrice: And I will add also, because like a lot of what we have just talked about as far as the process goes is Brian Cullinan’s fault for handing over the wrong thing while he was taking pictures or whatever. But the reason why Martha Ruiz is in trouble is since they are supposed to have memorized everything, she was in the opposite wing and knew that the wrong thing had happened, and according to reports she just kind of stood there.
Caleb Newquist: Right. It was kind of a deer in headlights moment for both of them, because I mean, even though — and PwC, Tim Ryan when he spoke to, I think it was USA TODAY, he said we realized immediately that the wrong winner had been announced and then we immediately took action to correct it. Well, the problem is that immediately did not exactly happen immediately. I mean it was — you had the producers of ‘La La Land’ up there giving their speeches. I mean, two of the guys got —
Joe Patrice: They were a couple of speeches in.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah, they were two speeches in. And so the third guy is standing there and then he turns around for one second and then he turns back and he says, well, we lost, but you know. And I remember hearing that and thinking, well, that’s kind of a cheeky thing to say. And then all of a sudden Jordan Horowitz, who is the guy who gave the first speech, grabs the envelope and says this is not a joke. And everyone is just gaping. I mean that picture of everyone in the audience is just amazing. Everybody’s mouth is just open and they just can’t believe what’s going on.
Elie Mystal: So my defense of PwC was going to be that, and I guess it still is barely, that their fundamental job is to count the motherfuckers and they did that. It’s not like they miscounted. It’s not like there was some hanging chads trying to figure out if ‘Moonlight’ or ‘La La Land’ won. They counted the votes correctly.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: So you assume.
Elie Mystal: So I believe man, so I believe. They counted the votes correctly. There was some mix up, there was some screw up in who handed the card to who and yes, that’s also part of PwC’s, or should have been part of PwC’s security measures, although I will point out that they are an accounting firm, not a security firm. But at the last best opportunity to prevent this from happening was not PwC, it was Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway, who absolutely should be able to read and understand that they received the incorrect envelope and be able — they are professional stage people, they should have been able to do something about that. They are not Ron Burgundy. They shouldn’t be in a situation where they just read everything that you put on the teleprompter.
Joe Patrice: Well, I mean Faye definitely did, but you could tell Warren knew something was wrong, he kept digging deeper into the envelope after he has pulled the card out for something else. He keeps not saying anything. Then he does the, and the Oscar goes to, and stares straight ahead, because he assumed it would pop up on the teleprompter if it was wrong, which it then didn’t obviously. So I mean he understood something was wrong and he was just kind of waiting for someone to fix it before she kind of barreled in.
I heard the back story on that is that — were you going to go with this?
Caleb Newquist: Oh no, go ahead.
Joe Patrice: There is apparently some back story of why his like just hesitancy didn’t win out is in rehearsal rumors are they thought about who was going to read it and ultimately she won and was like, you will open it and then I will read it. So while he had it and was just like not giving it to her and going like, so the Oscar goes to, that’s why she is like, oh, you are impossible and like rips it from him, because she thought he was trying to upstage her a double-crosser, so that actually added a whole other level, because otherwise he would have just sat there until somebody fixed it.
Caleb Newquist: Even if that’s 100% false, I love that story. That is fake news that I appreciate right there.
Elie Mystal: But what I am trying to get at is that, if you want PwC to announce your winners as well, that’s one thing, but their fundamental job was to count the voting process, which they did, and then it’s up to your actual stage performers to be able to handle the occasional live issue, they are professional performers.
Caleb Newquist: I mean you bring up a good point, because what a lot of people maybe know now is that the PwC has been doing this for 83 years, and so they have been, I assume, they have been refining these processes and procedures for a long, long time, and to have it go out to bid — if the Academy were to decide to take it out to bid and bring in someone totally new, I mean they — I don’t know if you guys — I don’t know if you saw this, but the Academy does not pay a lot of money to PwC for their services, and so if someone else were to come in, I mean they really risk a really kind of cozy and comfortable relationship. And not to mention that there are relationships between the accounting and finance department at the Academy and connections with PwC; the CFO at the Academy is married to a PwC partner. He is a PwC alum.
Elie Mystal: What?
Caleb Newquist: Oh yeah. I mean there’s all kinds of relationship kind of issues that make it very complicated.
Elie Mystal: Deep state, man deep state.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah.
Joe Patrice: The deep accounting state.
Caleb Newquist: Elie, you are right, I mean they know what they are doing, it was just ultimately this one stupid mistake, and if they swap out two partners and they swap in two new ones, I mean maybe that’s enough to put the Academy at ease, I don’t know.
Elie Mystal: Maybe they need to swap them out every couple of years so nobody gets too comfortable in their star turn.
Caleb Newquist: Yeah, that’s right, in their celebrity accountant status.
Joe Patrice: Wow, amazing. Well, thank you so much Caleb for — that’s Caleb Newquist from Going Concern. Thanks for coming on here and helping us walk through a disaster in a different industry. Like we talk a lot about law, but it’s good to know that affiliate industries have their problems too.
Caleb Newquist: You bet guys. It was great.
Elie Mystal: Thanks Caleb.
Caleb Newquist: You bet.
Joe Patrice: So that wraps it up for us this week. Be sure as always to listen to us, subscribe to us, yell at your friends about how they should be listening to us. Give us reviews on whatever your podcast delivery device of choice are. That gives us more and more listeners all the time, because it raises our profile.
Follow us on Twitter, which Caleb mentioned, I was tweeting while the Oscars were going on, I am at @JosephPatrice, Elie is @ElieNYC. Read Above the Law.
Elie Mystal: Read Going Concern.
Joe Patrice: Read Going Concern, yeah.
Elie Mystal: @Going Concern, that’s where Caleb works.
Joe Patrice: Yeah. There’s the Legal Talk Network App, you can download that and listen to, not only our show, but other shows in the Legal Talk Network. Point is, do all these things.
And with that, do we have any parting words? I guess, go KPMG, I don’t know.
Elie Mystal: No, I am on team Ernst & Young man.
Joe Patrice: All right. Thanks everybody and we will talk to you soon.
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