EP 701- Peter Dunne Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to The Jury Is Out, a podcast for trial attorneys who want to sharpen their skills and better serve their clients. Your co-hosts are John Simon, founder of the Simon Law Firm, Tim Cronin, personal injury trial attorney at the Simon Law Firm, and St. Louis attorney Erich Vith.

Erich Vieth:

Welcome to another episode of The Jury’s Out. I’m Erich Vieth.

Tim Cronin:

I’m Tim Cronin.

Erich Vieth:

I’m John Simon. We’re

John Simon:

Back

Erich Vieth:

With Peter Dunne.

John Simon:

Welcome back. So Peter, how long have you been practicing?

Peter Dunne:

Well, I was licensed in 1983. When I graduated college, my first job was as insurance claims adjuster. Says, “Oh, what a surprise that is. ” No, I did that for two years and I didn’t like

Tim Cronin:

It. He’s a really nice guy.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. Oh yeah. For claims adjusters, he was actually not as bad as some. But I did that for two years. See, we do it on

John Simon:

Our side.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. I did that for two years and I loved it. I lived in Chicago and Kansas City and it was neat to do that. But I just said, “I just don’t see myself doing this. ” And so I applied to law school. And again, the key is to apply early. Okay? I applied in September to be admitted the following September. So I got admitted. And then the day I learned that, I gave notice at the insurance company and said, “I’m gone.” And that was his-

Erich Vieth:

Question about the adjuster work. Did you have a rubber stamp that said no?

Peter Dunne:

Denied. No pay. Yeah. Well, I was new, so I wasn’t handling the big stuff. I did important stuff like windshield claims or claims that did not involve attorneys. As soon as they did, it was taken out of my hands. And that was actually one of the things I thought, “This is going to be fun. I had something interesting going on there and now I don’t have it anymore.” So

John Simon:

Speaking of no pay, this is something that had happened to me as a young plaintiff’s attorney, Dan Rabbit. I had a case against one of Dan’s clients and it wasn’t much of a case. I will admit that. It was not much of a case, but it was my case. And I was at the old firm, and I took so much time putting together this demand letter and all of this. And I typed it and reread it and read it again. And I made it very forceful and impactful and made a demand that I didn’t think was out of line. And I got it back in those days, no email. Maybe two weeks later, I get an envelope and I open it up and-

Tim Cronin:

We go back to

John Simon:

That. And there’s my letter with red marker, no pay. He sent me my demand letter back. He

Peter Dunne:

Sent your own letter back.

On it. Again, Dan who rescued me sort of from the public defender’s office and I worked with for 25 years, again, he had his faults, okay? But he was really good to me. Now, what I thought you were going to say was what Mike Pitzer used to do is that he had a stamp, a red stamp that he would use. And when we get these lengthy letters that he found inappropriate, he would stamp bullshit all over the letter. Yeah, that’s a good thing. And then write on it. Some asshole got ahold of your stationaries writing stupid letters under your name, thought you should know, and send it back. So I always admired that. I don’t know what he did with the stamp. I wish I had it today. I’ve

Tim Cronin:

Heard stories that Bruce Cook used to, who passed in the past year, I think. When he would get a letter that he disliked, he would write on it in red or black marker, F you, strong letter to follow and send it back.

Peter Dunne:

I’m not on the east side very much, so I don’t encounter him very often, but I have found him to be as gracious and polite and personable as they come. Of course, we haven’t disagreed about anything yet, so maybe that’s the reason.

John Simon:

The thing too, we were talking about this, I think earlier, maybe on a podcast about how much easier it is to write bullshit things now that there’s email and internet, before you actually had to dictate a letter, have somebody type it, get it back, review it. Think about it maybe. So I think the nasty letters, there were probably some real … I mean, if there was a nasty one, somebody put a lot of time and effort into it and it was

Peter Dunne:

Good. You write an email and press send without really reflecting about it or realizing that that’s forever. Okay? That’s out there permanently and you’ll never get it back. And talking about the law practice, one thing that isn’t an improvement is the immediacy of the whole thing. You get an email, you want to reply. I sent that five minutes ago. You haven’t replied yet. I’m like, yeah, I still keep believing you sent it, but that’s not an improvement. And these other, yes, word processors, email, I guess even AI to a limited extent. I can’t help but think that the way AI is portrayed in fiction and in movies never works out well. Okay. Arnold and the Terminator or others. Yeah. Humanity does not benefit from that is what I believe. And so I’m glad it’s happening near the end of my career rather than what you’re going to have.

I agree with

John Simon:

You 100%. Yeah. I’m glad I was born when I was born. What’s coming? I don’t think I want to hang around. I think we

Peter Dunne:

Had this exact conversation the other day. Yeah.

John Simon:

So when did emails become almost mainstream in the legal profession? 2000? I

Tim Cronin:

Bet it would have been in the mid 2000s, early 2000s.

John Simon:

Because I remember the first time I had a computer that I never used on my desk and I had a case with a lawyer from out of state and he was a really good guy, good lawyer, except his level of technology was way above mine. And he sent me five to 10 emails a day about the case and I wouldn’t respond. I’d go three or four days without responding and it pissed him off. And he finally called me and said, “I feel like I’m just throwing these down an empty well. What’s going on? ” And I said, “Hey, look, if we didn’t have a computer and you had to call me or write a letter, would you send me 10 letters in one day?” I said, “Just wait till the end of the day and send

Peter Dunne:

Me one.” Yeah, send one.

John Simon:

Yeah,

Peter Dunne:

Send one. Well, there’s a lawyer in town who I won’t name who was just like that. And I finally said, “You’re exhausting me. I cannot do this anymore. I’m going to set aside 15 minutes a day and I’ll respond to you, but I’m not going to do this back and forth all day long. Life’s too short again to do stuff like that. I’m not going to make time for you that way. I don’t make time for anybody else that way, much less you. “

Erich Vieth:

When email first started, I remember you get an email and it was exciting. I got an email and now it’s like-

John Simon:

I hate it when I’m returning them. I usually do it in the morning with my coffee and I’m returning emails and I’m doing it for 45 minutes and then I see that I’ve got more than when I started.

Peter Dunne:

Well, John’s an early riser, okay? You text him, you’ll get a reply at 6:00 or 6:15. I’m like, okay, I’m in bed. I’m like, “Oh, Jesus, he replied

John Simon:

Out. ” But you won’t get anything from me after nine o’clock. I can tell

Tim Cronin:

You that. You mean 7:30?

Peter Dunne:

No, I’ve really been lucky. I’ve had the great fortune of being associate in law practice with some people that I really, really thought were just fabulous lawyers. And even though I may have been really nothing like them, there’s always something you could take from them that will improve your approach in some fashion. Gary Snodgrass is just a meticulous planner. He would have a saying that you’re never well enough prepared. Dan Rabit was the best organized guy I’ve ever been around. And I’m not any of those things, okay? But I’ve tried to use the little bits that I could get from them to try to help me to improve. So I’m lucky. Yeah.

John Simon:

No, same here. Like I tell everybody, 90% of what I’ve learned, I’ve learned one of two ways, either by trying it myself and making a mistake and learning from screwing it up or watching somebody else do it and go, “Wow, that’s a pretty cool thing.” Take some notes and-

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. Well, circling back to when we’re in class, the students know when they’re not doing something very well. They know it, everyone knows it, okay? So I don’t think they benefit from necessarily having you point that out. I had a young lawyer tell me, “Well, their trial ed professor yelled at them.” And I’m like, “We don’t ever yell at anybody.” And I

John Simon:

Feel I’m way more critically than you

Peter Dunne:

Are. Occasionally,

John Simon:

You are.

Peter Dunne:

I’ve been better

John Simon:

Though. I’ve been trying to-

Peter Dunne:

I’m coaching kindergarten soccer taught me that no one was motivated to greater effort by being criticized. Okay? So you have to be encouraging. And then you might say, “I’m just thinking maybe you might think about doing this instead of what you did do, which was really dumb.” But you motivate people by praising them, but they know when they’ve made mistakes. You don’t need that. And the students are very observant. I mean, everybody is, I guess, but the students are very observant of one another and they take the good things, not just that we tell them, but that they see from everybody. And so that’s a neat part of teaching too, the fact that it’s a kind of a collective experience.

John Simon:

So Peter, you’ve been practicing what, 43 years, 42

Peter Dunne:

Years?That’s just a number, John.

John Simon:

I’m in my 40th and there’s a question associated with this. What can you tell-

Peter Dunne:

Not just an insulting.

John Simon:

It’s decades of experience.

Peter Dunne:

For

John Simon:

All

Peter Dunne:

The good, that’s done me.

John Simon:

For the 10 or 12 listeners that we have- Some are old, new, what would you tell them advice wise that something that you didn’t know when you started?

Peter Dunne:

Well, there’s so many things that I worried about as young lawyer that I see on reflection we’re just totally not worth worrying about. Okay. One of those is what other people think. You can’t control anything about that. Okay? You just have to do what you think is right. And as a young lawyer, you’re often paralyzed into inaction because you’re afraid of doing the wrong thing. And so you just have to have a little confidence in yourself and try to rely on the fact that yes, you do have something to offer here and something of value and that you shouldn’t censor yourself sort of because you’re afraid maybe it’s not the right thing to do. The other thing I’d say, and I tell this to our young lawyers, is that don’t be afraid to take chances. The only people not making mistakes around here are the ones not doing any work.

Okay? So take chances. Somebody gives you an opportunity to go try a case, go try it. Don’t say anything else about it. Take that deposition. It’s important. I don’t want to do it. You go do it. And so I think you grow by challenging yourself a little. And I’ve always been a little leery of that. And I think when I have done things that weren’t bad or did have some successes, it’s because I wasn’t afraid to try. So don’t be afraid to try is one of the things- Great advice. I would’ve told the younger me, but the younger me would not have listened. I’m fairly sure about that too.

Erich Vieth:

What was your idea about what you would do for a living or what kind of lawyer you would be when you signed up for law school? And then how did that compare to how you think you are?

Peter Dunne:

Well, one of the things I did when I first kind of thought about it was that I looked around and I saw the people who were doing it. And one of the things I thought was, “If that guy can do it, how hard can it be? ” Honestly, that’s one of the things I thought. And then once I was- A real confidence builder. Yeah. Once I was in law school, one thing they did not do, and I don’t know if it’s like this anywhere else, but at Mizzou, they didn’t give you much in the way of, “Well, here’s what’s out there.” And like counseling or guidance, like guidance counselor, they didn’t do that. And so I sort of found that for myself and I thought, okay, well, of all the things that are out there that are possible, maybe being involved in trial work or litigation was something that I could do.

And so when I joined the public defender, it wasn’t politically or philosophically motivated. I wanted a job, but as I grew into it, I really felt like these people deserve my best effort and the system wouldn’t work for anybody if it didn’t work for people that had nothing. And that’s how I motivated myself to … And then fear of failure, that’s the other thing that motivates you. You don’t want to screw this up or be the reason something goes badly. There are plenty of other reasons why my cases went badly in those days, but I hope not to be among them.

Erich Vieth:

This profession is a highwire act. It’s very public and people can trace back what you did in a case and it can be paralyzing.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah, that’s not encouraging to hear you say that, but it’s true.

Erich Vieth:

It’s true. They can look at every pleading you filed, every letter you wrote. Sometimes.

Tim Cronin:

Every

Peter Dunne:

Email.

Tim Cronin:

I just can’t do.

Peter Dunne:

No, we save our emails. Everybody should do that because somebody’s saving them. And among the changes, and there’s been a lot, but the fact that you don’t have a physical file anymore, I really have a hard time getting comfortable with that. I don’t like to stare at a computer screen.

Tim Cronin:

I keep, and I learned this from John, I keep cabinets in my office like a shadow file of all the key documents and key depos from every case that I’m actively working like.

Peter Dunne:

Okay.

Tim Cronin:

Once we’re in depos-

Peter Dunne:

In paper form.

Tim Cronin:

In paper form. In a red well, I’ll have the most important depos and the key documents I’m going to use and like the answer to the complaint so I can reference and go through this stuff quickly before every depo. Because I can’t stand not having pieces of paper.

Peter Dunne:

Well, John tells our students about the critical stuff that he has and he’ll have a notepad or whatever. And then he says, “Yeah, and the notepad’s 25 or six pages long.” I’m like, “Okay, that’s a lot of stuff.” I don’t know about that. Talk about- I think Gary a little bit. Yeah. Again, Gary talks about being prepared and how you’re never really prepared. And I said, “I can’t work that way. I get to a point where I believe I’m prepared and I’m prepared. I just have to convince myself that I’m ready and you’re ready.” And he dismissively refers to that as readiness is a state of mind. And I said, “That’s exactly right. Once I’ve decided I’m ready to go, I’m not going to worry about all that other stuff.”

Erich Vieth:

When I was in law school, I backed into it. I was a philosophy major in psychology.

Peter Dunne:

Why does that not surprise you?

Erich Vieth:

I knew nothing. And so I think my epiphany maybe came halfway through the first semester where I started thinking the most important thing here is to learn what to ignore as fast as possible to get the … And I think maybe my inspiration was Penoya versus Neff. It’s like a what, 40 page opinion. The only relevant part is to the page.

Peter Dunne:

That’s the challenge. And they don’t tell you that. And then the Socratic method, they don’t give you any answers. There’s just another question. I’m like, yeah, okay. Well, law school, my very first day were in contracts and they had assigned a case and I had read it and George Wallick was teaching it. And he looks through the room and he goes, “Okay, which one of you is Peter Tud?” Oh, no. “Okay. Well, I told your father I’d call on you the very first day of class. So tell us about this case.” So yeah, law school was a traumatic-

John Simon:

You and I have that in common.

Peter Dunne:

Is that right?

John Simon:

It was Vin Simmel.

Peter Dunne:

Oh God, okay.

John Simon:

And I was the first class of law school. I was the first student to call on. What he would do is you had seating arrangements, I think. Yeah, seating chart. He would just start somewhere and then he’d go to the end of the row and he’d go either up or down to the next row. So you knew if you were not going to get called on. And the good thing I thought was first day you really don’t need to know anything. I’d rather get called. Yeah, I got it out of the way. The case was about the concept of reasonableness in a contract and I stumbled onto that early on in his questioning. I just said the word reasonable and then he kind of took it

Peter Dunne:

From

John Simon:

There.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. Exactly. Next. Right. Yeah. No, again, you talk about legendary people in the law business here in town that Simon was one of those. And nobody ever had him would ever forget him. And of course I didn’t go to St. Louis Law School, but I knew him because my father knew him. And then what a kind and gracious guy outside of class. But oh my, inside class?

John Simon:

He had semesters with what, 200 students where he wouldn’t give an A. No. Wow. I don’t know when he started teaching in the 60s or something. A long time ago. He said, “You’d get the same grade today as you would if you were in my class in 1964.” He goes, “If the students aren’t as bright, the grades…” Yeah,

Peter Dunne:

That doesn’t help. It doesn’t help.

John Simon:

It doesn’t help.

Peter Dunne:

I don’t know. Would he have said the students aren’t as bright today as they were in 64?

John Simon:

Yeah.

Peter Dunne:

Who knows?

John Simon:

It’s

Peter Dunne:

Fine. He was

John Simon:

Extremely intimidating.

Peter Dunne:

Well, students actually are much brighter today. Okay. We went up interviewing at the law school and I asked the person representing the university, “Well, look up my academic record.” They look at it and said, “Well, maybe the wait list is what they said for me. ” So I was like, “Okay, well, clearly I got here at the right time,” is what that meant. But no, students are unquestionably brighter today. It’s harder to get into law school today. I think they’re coming out smarter and I think the profession benefits from that, but it’s just progress. A lot of things are better today. The haste and the speed with which things happen are not one of those things. A good book, a glass of wine, company of loved ones. Those don’t benefit from going by faster. Responding to an email, I don’t know. It’s just different. I don’t know that it’s worse.

And people talk about our lawyers less courteous today. And I’m like, “No, they’re not less courteous. There are plenty discourteous back then too,” is what I believe. I remember some of

Erich Vieth:

That for some

Peter Dunne:

Reason. But you hear that. I’m

Erich Vieth:

Going to say something. It’s probably overgeneralizing, but when you have a lawyer from outstate, like on the East Coast coming in, I think it’s different out in some places.

Peter Dunne:

Meaner?

Erich Vieth:

Meaner, less patient, more snarky. And I had a deposition last month where two lawyers from DC came in and after the deposition, they were glowing with praise. Thank you for this cordial atmosphere. It was all respectful and-

John Simon:

Well, you’re a very nice person though. There

Erich Vieth:

Were other best of us.

John Simon:

There were other people in the

Erich Vieth:

Room.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. Well, I think that’s the culture of the law business in St. Louis. I haven’t gotten that compliment. I think it’s nastier in Kansas City than it is here. I agree. I think here people get along. They try to get along. They see the benefit of getting along and there is a benefit to it. So again, that’s the culture that I was brought up in, that things go better because you may need a favor from that other lawyer next time. And are they going to be inclined to do it for you if you were a dick this time? No, they’ll never forget it. I don’t when people are that way to me.

Erich Vieth:

The expression is you might not remember what they said, but you’ll remember how you felt.

Peter Dunne:

Well, right. That’s exactly so. And that’s interaction with humanity in general, I guess, rather than just the law business.

Erich Vieth:

So another thing, a wake-up call for me was when I went to law school, I saw it as figuring out difficult puzzles, like just figuring things out. And I didn’t appreciate the social side of law. And we’ve been talking about lots of people, personalities and you can’t get your job done unless you actually, even if you’re an introvert, like I think that’s naturally where I am. You got to force yourself out there and meet people and do the chit chat to get to know people.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. The job requires it. I mean, you stand up and may it please the court and you got to dive into it. If you do that hesitatingly or reluctantly, that doesn’t help the client. You need to be assertive. And if you’re not that way, you need to be that way and confident. And if you don’t have that, you need to find it kind of because nobody else is going to believe it if you don’t believe it, which maybe explains my Sterling trial record through the years, how many cases I’ve lost. But anyway.

Erich Vieth:

Well, you’ve tried, according to your bio, 180 jury trials.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah, that’s actually not the complete total, but I’m really, really hoping it never ever gets up to 200 because I am not interested in having to get that high.

John Simon:

I had a case where I represented an older guy who was in a wheelchair, not from the injury in our case. He was in a wheelchair.

Peter Dunne:

Oh, good. Yeah. We didn’t do that to

John Simon:

Him. And so what you say. He was up at council table and I was a young lawyer, but you’re two doing plaintiff stuff and he’s rolling back and forth in his wheelchair. And so I did my stellar cross-examination of the defendant corporate rep on the

Peter Dunne:

Stand

John Simon:

And I was walking back to the … And it was like a $5,000 cabin. It wasn’t a big case. And I’m walking back to the table and he was like maybe late 60s and I’m a new lawyer and I come back feeling really good and sitting down, no more questions, Your Honor. And I sit down and he says loud enough for everybody in the courtroom to hear, “Hey, if we lose this thing, I don’t owe you any money.” I said, “No, you don’t need any

Peter Dunne:

Money.” Well, funny things happen in court. I was trying a fall down case representing an apartment owner where a guy delivering the newspaper had fallen on one of those strips that are at the edge of a stair and he said it was loose. And he stepped on it and tripped and down the stairs and he was hurt. And in the courtrooms in the city, they used to have those metal strips that would cover the extension cords and stuff. And walking back from asking a witness questions, I tripped on it and I caught myself. In a slip and fall case? Yeah, in a slip and fall case. And I said something like, “Oh, had that removed or something.” But I just thought- Your negligence. … didn’t hurt because we didn’t care. You were defending the case, right? Yeah, I was defending the cases. So it didn’t hurt me, but it was just ironic.

Erich Vieth:

It’s often better than DV.

Peter Dunne:

Yeah. Yeah. It was stranger than fiction, that’s for sure.

Erich Vieth:

Thanks for joining us. It’s been fun.

Peter Dunne:

Well, thank you, Eric. And it’s again, good to spending time with you and you guys want an honor to be included in this distinguish. We’re glad you’re here. We’re this distinguished roster of podcast participants. Yeah. It’s been great, so thanks.

Erich Vieth:

Yeah. All right. So that’s been another episode of The Jury is Out. I’m Erich Vieth.

Tim Cronin:

I’m Tim Cronin.

John Simon:

I’m John Simon. We’ll see you next time.

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