EP 515- The Law Clerk Experience Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to The. Jury. is Out a podcast for trial attorneys who want to sharpen their skills and better serve their clients. Your co-hosts are John Simon, founder of the Simon Law Firm Tim Cronin personal injury trial attorney at the Simon Law Firm and St. Louis attorney Erich Vieth.

Sydney Marino:

Hi. Welcome back to The. Jury is Out. My name is Sydney Marino. Joining you again today we’re going to be discussing interview tips and how to get a clerkship.

Abbie Hoefer:

I’m Abbie Hoefer.

Isabella Gonzalez:

I’m Isabella Gonzalez.

Tony Simon:

And I’m Tony Simon.

Sydney Marino:

Welcome back.

Tony Simon:

Now let’s talk about, I want to be a LawClerk. I’m in law school. I’m in my first year. Where do I start?

Sydney Marino:

First, I think you need to take a look at yourself introspectively and know what interests you. And even if you don’t know, you can think about if you want to litigate, if you want to do transactional work. I think that’s always a good place to start to just narrow down where you’re going to be applying for jobs or the firms that you’re going to be reaching out to.

Tony Simon:

What if you don’t know?

Sydney Marino:

You don’t know about the firms or you don’t

Tony Simon:

Know what you want to do? No. What if you don’t know what you want to do? Lemme give you an example. When I was in law school, I knew I wanted to do litigation. I could not sit in an office. I tried to as a patent attorney, my boss made me pass the patent bar and I had to write patent applications and it was torture for me to sit in a room eight hours a day and just write, that’s not for me. I knew that going into it. But what if somebody says, well, look, maybe I want to help people form corporations or draft license agreements, or some people say, I can’t stand up in a Courtroom and make an argument. That’s just not my personality. But what if you don’t know? Then what do you do?

Abbie Hoefer:

So for me, I was pre-med in college until sophomore year, junior year of college, I had an internship working with more in the family law arena, and that’s kind of how I got interested in law school in general. I was exactly who you were talking about. I came into law school and I didn’t even know what litigation was or what it meant. So for me, the beginning of law school was I wanted to make sure that I, as Sydney was saying, was a good student. How do I function as a student? How can I be in the best routine to succeed? And I think that my interest kind of came along through that process of focusing on doing well in school, focusing on really diving into being a law student. And I think even just throughout my first year, I just kind of came upon things that I was more interested in.

I still don’t know what I’ll end up doing. And I think that that’s the fascinating thing about law is that you can do one thing one summer or another thing another summer, and until you kind of find that what you’re passionate about, there’s so many opportunities. So I think if someone doesn’t know, my biggest advice would just be don’t focus on freaking out that you don’t know exactly what you want to do. Just try and dive into the full experience of being a student and taking in the topics that you’re learning. Because I mean, I took contract law and I was like, that’s super interesting. I didn’t even know that I would be interested in that. But I also think throughout this year I’ve learned that maybe transactional isn’t something I’m super excited about because as you said, Tony, I’m someone that sees myself more in a Courtroom that likes the hustle and bustle of doing litigation. And I think I’m just trying to give myself grace of you don’t need to know exactly what you’re interested, exactly, pinpoint what you want to do for your whole life, but taking the time to just really figure out what you’re passionate about and dive into learning is,

Tony Simon:

And even as you say with contracts, you learn contract law, but you can draft contracts or you can litigate contracts and so there’s different aspects to it. And your career can evolve. Right? You can start in one area and end somewhere else.

Sydney Marino:

I was going to say, I just think that that’s something that I have to realize right now because as I’m going to be a three L, I’m kind of worried about what do I even want to do? I mean, I have an idea and I have interests, but it’s also thinking ahead that maybe I don’t have to stay in one practice area after five years of being in practice. I can, it’s fluid. You can move a little bit, not too much. Maybe I can’t go and be a patent attorney, but that’s okay. I

Tony Simon:

But you can litigate patent cases.

Sydney Marino:

Exactly. So you can go, it’s a fluid movement, especially in certain firms, so you have to remember that because stressed out right now about it.

Tony Simon:

So maybe if you don’t know, you can do a clerkship here and see what litigation’s like. And I’ve had clerks come to me and say, you know what? It was a great summer, but I now know I don’t want to do litigation and that’s okay.

Isabella Gonzalez:

No, I want litigation. I actually have an interest in ip, which is when I got the job here, I was so ecstatic because I knew that Tony worked on IP in multiple areas and IP can get complicated. And I told myself, take this as an opportunity to discover if you actually like IP in practice because you can see it. It was funny. We did my LARC class, which is our writing and research class in law school. We did our topic this semester was a trademark infringement action. So when trademark infringement action was so interesting to me and I got so excited and when I did my first oral argument on it, I was like through the roof when I got to talk about this case, I had been with it the whole semester and it was on something that I liked. And then one day in a meeting Sydney brought up actual confusion and I was like, I know what that is.

I’ve done that. So I got really excited to just kind of dip my feet into it because I think there’s kind of a stigma around the idea about not knowing versus knowing because you could say, oh, I want to do this. And like you said, that can change over time. I think that’s the most important mindset to have is that it’s okay to get out of something, especially if you don’t like it because you have to be happy with the area of law that you pick. And I think that so far so good and IP for me. But

Tony Simon:

For ip you mean intellectual property, right?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yes, intellectual property. But I read patents all the time or I’ll get to read a copyright or a trademark and I get to see it in practice. And that’s amazing for me because that provides me some kind of background. So when I go into the upcoming semester in the fall, I’m actually going to take intellectual property survey. So I’ll even get a deeper understanding. You get an A. If I do, I’ll let you know. But yeah, it’s really exciting to jump into something and figure out if you do actually want to partake in that or not.

Tony Simon:

So it sounds like the first choice is what type of law? I want to practice transactional versus litigation.

Sydney Marino:

That’s how I think the best way, if you’re someone that it’s your first year of law school and OCIs are coming up and I think that what December or January you start seeing the list and you have no idea where to start. I think the first place is you can look at if you want to litigate or if you want to do transactional. I will say a lot of firms outside of maybe us and a couple others that are strictly trial attorneys, they give you the opportunity to see both sides of it, which I think is very helpful, especially for someone that doesn’t know. But I guess maybe with me I always knew I always wanted to litigate and be a litigator. So ever since I wanted to be in law school and be a lawyer, but first you just look at the firms you research, do all your research, look at the type of practice areas that they offer at that firm.

Tony Simon:

So once you decide corporate transactional or litigation, then you look at subject matter.

Sydney Marino:

That’s how I did it. I think with OCIs, I’m also, we should have said this in the introductions as well. I’m now thinking that we are all three first generation law students

Tony Simon:

You mean what? Nobody in your family’s an attorney.

Sydney Marino:

I have one cousin that’s an attorney. Luckily he helps me a ton. But with people that are first generation, I think we were all talking about this the other day, sometimes it is difficult to even know where to start even to understand legally we were talking about what a plaintiff is and what a defendant is.

Tony Simon:

So that’s a good point. I had an older brother, an older sister, my brother John, who were very helpful for me and helped me. Well, the reason I went to law school was because John suggested it. I wasn’t going to go to law school. I was going to be an engineer and he said, go to law school, try it for a year. And I did. And I ended up loving it. But that was easy for me because I had somebody, an older sister, my sister Loretta who has her own law firm and my brother John. I had cousins that were lawyers. There was a lot of lawyer talk.

Sydney Marino:

I do think that is a big difference that especially in St. Louis, I want to say a lot of, if you’re from St. Louis, someone that’s in the legal community, even though it is such a small community, St. Louis is a big city, but it’s a small town. So I think being at slu, there was a lot of people that had that background sort of like you did, that had people in their family and their immediate family that our attorneys have their own law firm, their siblings were in law school. That’s a big

Tony Simon:

Difference. And that’s why I have friends, your father who told me about you being in law school. I’m always open to, if somebody doesn’t have somebody like that to ask questions, I’ll take ’em to lunch if they’re in law school and talk to ’em and say, here’s what you can look at in the legal community. You know what I mean? And it’s okay to reach out. I think if you don’t have somebody, don’t feel bad about reaching out to family or friends who may not be lawyers, but they may have a lawyer and you say, Hey, I’m in law school, can I talk to your lawyer? Take ’em to lunch and ask ’em questions.

Abbie Hoefer:

Parking is huge. I was going to say, I don’t know where this falls on the steps of what to do. Also OCI means on-campus interviews, but on the steps of when that list comes out, I think that networking is pretty high up there on importance. As someone who didn’t have any attorneys in my family, I remember probably should have started this sooner, but around November I worked at CRE four racket club for five years and I was going through the list of people that I had met there that I had connections with or knew through my family of is anyone that I know, an attorney that would meet me for a cup of coffee and just say that you can be vulnerable with and be like, Hey, to be honest, I have no idea what I’m doing. I got through my first semester of law school, I’ve learned a lot.

I’m super excited and passionate and I am ready to work hard, but where do I even begin? And that was super helpful for me because I think it can be super intimidating. It can just feel daunting as someone, I didn’t even know how many different practice areas there were, how many different routes you could go. And so I just think networking is super important. And I think even if you’re a little bit more introverted, I think you do need to kind of force yourself out of your comfort zone because the connections that you meet will go a long way. And I’m still working on that too.

Sydney Marino:

So something you can continue. And I guess I should preface for anyone listening that doesn’t know on campus, interviews are where law firms come to the school. So they’ll come to slu. We all three go to slu and it’s over a period of maybe three or four weeks, five weeks I

Tony Simon:

Believe. When is it?

Sydney Marino:

There’s two opportunities. One, so for your first year will be in January. Typically it’s in January. And then there’s another one in the fall set of interviews. So two Ls and three Ls are able to do both. And the next one, it’s in August I believe they start, they open up,

Isabella Gonzalez:

They just opened up for the first week

Sydney Marino:

For

Isabella Gonzalez:

The OC.

Sydney Marino:

Essentially it’s a bidding process and you’ll submit.

Tony Simon:

Let’s talk about that a little bit. So you’re in your first semester of law school where in when I was in law school long time ago, there was, I don’t know what it was, it was the placement office or

Sydney Marino:

Something, the career services office.

Tony Simon:

Career services. And you go there and they’ll have a list of firms that are coming on campus for interviews and you have to sign up what’s the bidding process?

Sydney Marino:

So now it’s all online and it’ll be, there’s five weeks I believe. So each week will be released, I think it’s like two weeks or something, I think

Isabella Gonzalez:

Two weeks prior to the actual interviews.

Sydney Marino:

And typically the, the firms typically ask for a resume cover letter transcript, and sometimes they ask for a writing sample and you’ll submit everything online. And like I said, it’s a bidding process. So you can do as many for that week as you want of firms that you’re interested in working for.

Tony Simon:

Do you rank them?

Sydney Marino:

No,

You don’t rank them. Then after, I think it’s another week or so, you’ll receive back bids from that firm to interview and you schedule an interview and they’re usually the first round are 30 minutes and they’re at school and they’re on campus. They’re either Zoom or they’re in person and you just do ’em in the middle of the school day, 30 minutes. It’s typically one interviewer or two interviewers from the firm. Usually an attorney, maybe a partner or someone from the HR department. And once you have a first round, if you get a call, you’ll do callbacks or second rounds. So the career services offices is who organizes all of that.

Tony Simon:

So you have those interviews. You said you have to have a resume cover letter. Who helps you prepare those and when do you have to start doing that?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Career services, they’re a really fantastic resource, at least at SL Law, great team of people. They really do provide a lot of feedback. You can show up to the office and whoever’s available you can knock on their door. I’ve worked with Joe Taylor. He’s a fantastic person. He’s just really helpful. He’s very clear and concise. I brought him everything, my resume, my writing sample, the transcripts, my cover letter. And he reviewed everything with me and he told me what to fix, what to take out, what to maybe gear these cover letters for particular firms because you should, I think a template is good, but it should not be a copy paste by any means like this. Each letter,

Tony Simon:

That’s your first connection with that firm, right?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yes. They’re going to see that. I think those are what gets you through the door. And you don’t want to be somebody that it looks like you could have pulled that off of Google or chat GPT. That is not good. You want to make sure that that firm knows something about you after reading that

Tony Simon:

Letter and something about them, I once got an email that said, I want to work for you. I want to do corporate finance or something. And I’m like, well, you didn’t research me. I don’t do corporate finance. Alright, so you do that research, you pick the firms, you have to prepare your cover letter and resume, make sure those are really good, no typos. And then you have your interview. Then you have your interview. So are the interviews suit and tie and dressed nicely?

Sydney Marino:

We were just talking about interviews and because the OCIs for this upcoming round in August just were released. So for you both, and I guess me, I don’t know, but talking about interviews and I was telling them a story about one of my interview that I had and one of the answers to the questions that was funny, but I can tell. But I think preparing, there’s a lot of nerves that can go into it, especially when you’re a first year, even when you’re a second year and

Tony Simon:

After that, so you’re looking in the summer, you have to sign up for interviews for

Sydney Marino:

The next

Tony Simon:

As a too well,

Sydney Marino:

Yes, the next summer as

Abbie Hoefer:

Okay,

Tony Simon:

So you need to be aware of that and get

Abbie Hoefer:

Everything. Yeah. But as a one out, something that I wish that I was informed of earlier is in November of your first year, all you’re worried about is school and then doing well in school and finals and everything

Tony Simon:

Are you should,

Abbie Hoefer:

Yes. But then finals happen and you’re feeling defeated and exhausted. And at least for me, my family lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So I went home for a month and my brain was turned off of school. And then you get back and you have three weeks till OCI start. Maybe I should have looked at elsewhere, but the warning for me came in January of, okay, you need to start prepping your materials. And my advice would be, I wish, looking back, I had started preparing for that throughout first semester, even if it’s just getting a draft together because

Tony Simon:

You’re talking about your resume and cover letter.

Abbie Hoefer:

Yeah. Just because come January, you’re starting your new semester, you’re starting five new classes, and then you realize, oh, I have interviews in two weeks. I have to draft 15 cover letters. It can just be a lot. College for me was a lot of covid. So any interview I had, priorly was on Zoom. And I think actually going and sitting down in front of someone in a suit and looking professional and conversing with them was new for me. But it was also kind of exciting because it’s fun to see what they’re

Sydney Marino:

About. I think to help with anyone that listens to this that is a one or going to law school and what you were saying you wish you would’ve started earlier. I think a lot of that can also go back to networking. I luckily had one, I had people that I knew in the legal community and I was able to go, and you can get lunch or grab coffee. Those are also really great people to have, look at your resume and look at your cover letter and review that. And I think if you know anyone that’s a two L or a three L or someone that’s older, those are also great resources to have. And that networking and those talks that you can have just over coffee or anything really help when the time comes that you’re going to be interviewing and that you’re going to be reaching out to these firms and doing that. I think having, even just going to any the career services office in September and just being like, hi, introducing yourself. That definitely will alleviate a lot of stress when it comes to January for your first year of law

Tony Simon:

School. And we have reached out to the career services center at different schools sometimes when we have a particular need, Hey, if anybody’s interested in this, let me know. So it’s good to check in. So now you’re ready for your interview. How do you prepare for the interview?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Oh, at least one of the associations or the class, not class, excuse me. The organizations on campus will host mock interviews and I think that’s really important because you can talk and do the traditional thing and talk to yourself. At least I do it. I’ve talked to myself in a mirror before to practice answers to questions that I think I can anticipate being asked. I also need to make sure that if they do ask a question that is an area that I’m uncomfortable or unsure in, I have something prepared to help me through that. I think as somebody from,

Tony Simon:

Give me an example of that.

Isabella Gonzalez:

So for me, since I’m out of state from Miami, Florida, one of the questions, the moment I say I’m from Miami, Florida is do you intend on staying in Missouri?

And that’s a very, maybe yes, maybe no question for me. I have aspirations to go practice in Texas, but I don’t know what the future holds. So I don’t want to say no, I would not practice in Missouri because then that might close off an opportunity for me. But I do want to let them know where my mind is at because I think that being honest is really important. That lends to your character. You don’t ever want to say something and then three months later go back on that. That does not build your character well. So I think that having an answer prepared for a question that that could change their perspective on your interview is important to have. I also think that it’s important to do, like you said, Sydney said, research, it’s key to know who you’re talking to.

Tony Simon:

You mean individually or the firm or both?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Individually and the firm. I think it’s also good to prepare questions for them because they are there trying to get to know you. But I also want to know who I would be working for because I think that that is really important because you could go work for somebody and they could be a big law firm and they could have all of these great resources, but you could be working for somebody that maybe you’re not necessarily interested in that law or they might not work for you in the way, the physical way, the way they function. I think that’s really important. Or another question they asked me at one of the interviews was what was the first mistake you ever made?

Tony Simon:

Wow, good

Isabella Gonzalez:

Question. And they asked that and I answered it promptly

Tony Simon:

Coming to this interview,

Isabella Gonzalez:

I was like, woo. I was like, that’s putting me in the hot seat. But I answered the question and then their question was, how did you fix it? And I thought that was a good question because that gives them insight to what would happen if you made a mistake. Hopefully not. But like I said, mistakes are learning opportunities. If you made a mistake at their firm, how you would approach that, because again, that says a lot about your character. I think the interviews are meant to show what they don’t see on paper. So if you really just go in there and you spit out whatever you just put on that paper, I don’t think that you’re doing anything for yourself. You need to have those special answers to those questions. I can give that

Sydney Marino:

Example. I was going to say, I think interviews are a great opportunity for you to demonstrate the kind of personality you have and to really be yourself because they can see your grades on paper that you did journal, that you did moot court.

Tony Simon:

If you put that on your resume,

Sydney Marino:

Yeah, that on your resume, it’s always great. I put on my resume that I’m a member of the VO

Tony Simon:

Club. Some people don’t put their grades on there though.

Sydney Marino:

Well, sometimes they don’t have you. They don’t put your grades, your GPA or your class rank or your percentile that you are in.

Tony Simon:

Yeah, but they’re going to see your transcript.

Sydney Marino:

But I do think having a little personality, and maybe I shouldn’t put this on there, but I put my interests and hobbies as a little portion of my resume because then those are always good conversation starters. I think the best interviews that I’ve been in half the time aren’t even talking about law related topics all the time. Obviously for a portion of it, you go through what year you are in law school, what classes you like, and you go through practical questions, how do you like your biggest mistake and how you moved on from that or how you remedied that. But then I think having questions about your personality, I told them the story, how I was asked if you could have dinner with three people dead or alive, who would it be? And I didn’t without a second thought. I said, Harry Styles Billy Joel and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And then I was really embarrassed because I was like, those are terrible answers to say in a, well I thought that, but then they were like, those were great. That’s really great. You didn’t even have a second to think about it. You just knew. And then I returned it by asking who the interviewers would have dinner with. And they had not been asked that. They asked that question to every single interviewee and not one of them besides me asked who they would have dinner

Tony Simon:

With. Having a question to ask is good. How about you, Abby?

Abbie Hoefer:

So I think you asked how do you prepare, how do you best prepare for an interview? I did competitive gymnastics growing up and weird to compare that to an interview. But something with me is I get really nervous and I think leading up to an interview and leading up to a gymnastics meet, I could feel my nerves getting high. And something that I did in both scenarios was, I think you all have mentioned this about preparing for trial, but the more prepared you are, the more comfortable you’re going to be and the less nervous you are. So all of you mentioned the important things that you should do before an interview. Obviously research them. Obviously know your resume. You should never be asked a question about your resume and not be able to speak about it. But for me, the biggest and most important thing that I try to do before an interview is calm my nerves.

And by calming my nerves, I really know what I want to say, what I want to say about the firm and kind of getting myself into a place where I can be confident and comfortable. I’ve never been on the other side of an interview, but I do think it goes a long way if you can come in and be social and put a smile on your face and just the more comfortable you are, at least in my experience, the longer it went. Because I think it just shows that you’re confident in yourself and you’re confident in your skills and what you have to offer. That’s just my tactic. Yeah, no,

Tony Simon:

And it’s a good point because part of the interview is the interviewer is thinking, can I work with this person? Right? You’re going to spend a lot of time with ’em. But the one thing I will tell you is in my experience, the one question you need to prepared to answer is why you want to work for that firm? Why that firm? Why do you want that firm? And if you can say, well, I want to work here because I heard you all had this type of cases or I read about this, it shows that you really do have an interest in that firm as opposed to, I just want to make some money or I just want to get something under my belt. So I think that’s a good thing. Alright, so now you have your interview and then there’s callbacks maybe, and they have second interviews still. Do they do that?

Sydney Marino:

Yeah, and I think this is a good time to talk about rejection and having to experience that. A lot of law students, and we discussed this before leading up when we were preparing for today’s podcast, having to deal with rejection and failures. A lot of law students are coming from undergrad or being in their career for a long time where they were the top of their class. They had 4.0 GPAs, you had straight A’s. And now coming to law school, everyone’s like that. Every single person. It’s humbling. It’s very humbling. And it’s something that a lot of people don’t necessarily think about when you first get there. I think that’s how I was. I had to deal with certain failures and it took a lot out of me especially. And it started with OCIs and not getting back the firm that I really, really wanted. And I worked so hard to network and I went to lunches and met with different partners. And then the second you don’t get that offer back, you’re like, why am I doing this? I think that’s a big thing that people should talk about and to understand that that’s okay and that you’re going to end up where you’re supposed to end up. Also, it’s a big thing that the people that get jobs out of OCIs are a very small number then

Tony Simon:

Especially

Sydney Marino:

For first years. For first years, it’s a very small number of people.

Tony Simon:

It’s extremely competitive.

Sydney Marino:

It’s very competitive. And I didn’t get a job out of OCIs. I got a job at the Simon, Law Firm, and that happened three months after OCIs. And so I think that’s something a stigmatism that at school, uc, because it’s very pushed on you to do OCIs and this is how you’re going to get a job. But people maybe don’t understand that there’s other

Tony Simon:

Ways.

Isabella Gonzalez:

I actually have a question, cold emailing for Tony, what are your thoughts on that? How best to approach that as one L or even a two L? Because I think there’s a lot of people who do that, and there’s a lot of people who stick to the OCIs because it’s more comfortable, I guess, because provided by school, it’s not a complete no connection.

Tony Simon:

I would encourage it. And here’s the other thing I’ll tell you. Don’t be afraid to use connections. If you know somebody that knows that lawyer, use that connection. Whether you say, Hey, I got your name from so-and-so, or ask them to reach out for you because I can’t tell you the number of times where people say, good friends of mine have children who are in law school and they end up trying an on-campus interview. And then they tell me the next time I see, yeah, I wanted to work for him. I’m like, why didn’t you call me? And they’re like, well, I didn’t get called back. And I’m like, pick up the phone and call me or shoot me an email. Because had I known I would at least take you to lunch and talk about whether it’s a good fit. But use those connections. But I would, what’s the downside of emailing? At least once? They don’t saying, hey,

Abbie Hoefer:

They don’t answer. I was going to say about my experience is the Simon. Law Firm was my first OCI interview and I went through five weeks of OCIs, didn’t hear anything, crickets. I emailed Erica and Liz interviewed me every week for five weeks, which might’ve gotten annoying, but I knew I wanted to work here and I was very interested in the job and I got the call from Jared, then you all offered me a job and I was so excited. But I think that, I just think persistence goes a long way. And if you show your interest, and I mean for me, the biggest thing that I wanted them to know in my interview was I’m going to work hard and I want to do well. And I think as long as you portray your character and you keep trying, what do you have to lose? Exactly.

Sydney Marino:

They’re using connections, if you don’t do it, someone else is going to do it, right?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yeah, that’s a big one. I mean some people, and it’s hard for first generations that don’t have the connections because then you have to start reaching out to your friends or people that know, some people that know other people. I think it’s a little bit of a challenge. Connections come at the right time though. And I’m a firm believer in that because you have people that know people and if they know how hardworking or know how interested you are in that field, use that. I agree with Tony. I think that’s a big deal. And some people feel bad. I had somebody at school tell me like, oh, I got this job through a connection and I feel bad because I didn’t do the OCI. And I told them, why do you feel bad? That got your foot in the door. Now you need to show them that you belong there.

Tony Simon:

And that’s what mattered. And I will say this, if somebody takes the time to email me, that means they looked me up and they found my email and they know what I do, which is important. And the other thing with respect to the connections, the reason I do that is if somebody’s going to recommend someone, somebody I know and I trust their judgment, that means a lot to me. A 20 minute interview on campus doesn’t really give me much to somebody I don’t know. But if I know somebody and they can recommend that person, then I feel a little bit better. So that’s a good discussion on how to navigate through getting your first clerkship job, finding a firm you want to work for and getting through the interviews. Now let’s talk about you’ve got your job, it’s your first day. What are you going to do?

Sydney Marino:

You’re going to get there early. Not a 5:00 AM early, but get there early. Make sure you are prepared. I think here, I remember starting a couple weeks after some other clerks had started, so knowing what you’re walking into

Tony Simon:

Because you took a vacation,

Sydney Marino:

I did. I take a vacation. Well, that can go into another topic later. Like taking time. Yes, that’s important, but managing your stress levels and filling your cup. I’m a big proponent of you have to fill your cup to succeed in your professional life.

Tony Simon:

Yeah, take your vacation at the beginning or the end of your clerkship.

Sydney Marino:

I did that. He said it, I did that.

But I think showing up prepared, ready to learn, eager to learn. I remember Angela had taken us around the office on the first day that I was here and introducing yourself to all the office staff, all the attorneys, making your presence known. I think that’s a big deal because even though we’re working for Tony or you’re working for one attorney, wherever you are at that firm, that doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t go and help out some other time or get lunch and have another mentor that’s another attorney in the firm. So I think knowing where you’re going and

Tony Simon:

Always know who to ask for what, who do I talk to if I need this? Who do I talk to? Get my login information.

Sydney Marino:

And that starts with having those conversations and introducing yourself. So I think that’s a big thing. We’ve been told this in a lot

Abbie Hoefer:

Of lunch and learns, but just a say yes mindset. On my first day I wanted to do everything Sydney just said, but also just have an open mind and be excited about getting our first assignments and just trying to make, lay the foundation of I’m here to work and I’m excited to work. And I’m going to say yes to any opportunity that comes my

Isabella Gonzalez:

Way, say yes to research. Because research I think has a little bit of a downside to it. It can get tedious, however, say yes to the research because by the time you finish going through it all, you now know something in a deeper level that you had no idea about before. And I think that that’s really relevant because if it comes up again and you’ve handled a similar matter, you can say yes to another project and it might be a bigger one because you have that background on the research. So sometimes I think that saying yes to the research projects are important because you learn a lot more besides obviously sending a memo through an email and whatnot. You are putting together an analysis based on what you’ve just read and it forces you to think. It reinforces that application skill that we’re constantly taught to use in law school. And I think that doing it in practice really does help you. So I think that’s something that you should always say yes to is research as a clerk, because that gives you a lot of different contours on research itself, how to do it and how to write based on what you’ve researched, write

Tony Simon:

Well. And it can lead to the work product, which is whether it’s research for emotion or a response to emotion or a letter to a client, giving them advice. So I think that’s a good point. Say yes to that. How do you know when you come to a law firm who everybody is putting names with faces, how do you

Sydney Marino:

Prepare for that going and

Isabella Gonzalez:

Introducing yourself if it’s introductions and homework before you get into the firm?

Tony Simon:

Like looking at the website?

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yeah,

Tony Simon:

At least knowing who the attorneys are

Isabella Gonzalez:

And what area of law they handle at the firm is really important. You don’t want to come up to somebody like Amy Gunn asking about something that she doesn’t cover. You’re going to ask her a question. She’s going to be like, oh, go ask. So-and-So, so that’s really important to know as well. And to make yourself known, I think I haven’t gotten a chance to go around yet, but Amy offered. She’s like, you can drop by anytime you want by my office. And I thought that was great because her talk was on that work life me. That was her motto,

Sydney Marino:

Work life, balance

Isabella Gonzalez:

Work-life balance. And she told us it should really be work life me. And I think that’s great. So I wanted to pick her brain more because there’s a lot of stress as an attorney and I think nobody talks about it. So any one L two L, wherever you are, for all of the law students listening, tell your families to listen to this podcast. I think it would give them a huge insight to what you’re going to face.

Sydney Marino:

Thank you all for joining us. Join us next time when we discuss success in your school life, personal life and career. Thank you.

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