EP 507- Office Dynamics Part One: Communication

Episode Notes

Transcript

Speaker 1:

Welcome to The. Jury. is Out a podcast for trial attorneys who want to sharpen their skills and better serve their clients. Your co-hosts are John Simon, founder of the Simon Law Firm Tim Cronin personal injury trial attorney at the Simon Law Firm and St. Louis. Attorney Erich Vieth.

Angela Louis:

Welcome to The Jury is Out. This is Angela Louis. I am the firm administrator at the Simon Law Firm, and I have hijacked this podcast for the next several episodes with people in my firm that are willing to come and sit and have a conversation. And I’m going to go around the room in terms of who is at the table and who’s going to be taking part. Zack?

Zack Zidzik :

Alright, clockwise. My name is Zack Zidzik. I am the trial tech and I work in the intake department here in the firm. I’ve been here for seven years and I enjoy collaborating with everyone and getting to work with everyone in the firm inside and outside of the firm. So it’s been fun.

Marcus McGill:

My name is Marcus McGill. I’m the tech guy

Angela Louis:

And fun fact guy.

Marcus McGill:

Yeah, I got facts about animals and

Krista Hoormann :

Stuff. My name is Krista Hoormann , I’m a litigation paralegal.

Claudia Jenkins:

My name is Claudia Jenkins and I am also a litigation paralegal. I’ve been here roughly about four years.

Angela Louis:

Great. So I think we can start today’s discussion off in terms of communication. Everybody came from a different place. We didn’t all start here at the firm. We didn’t all start this firm together. So to come in and to integrate yourself and learn who the Simon, Law Firm is, how we operate, how to get to know your attorneys, how to get to know the other players in the firm, your peers, what does that look like? How do you integrate yourself? How do you go about doing your day-to-Day work and then having the communication that goes with that from any level.

Krista Hoormann :

So when I started here, it was in the middle of the pandemic and I also started at another firm at the very beginning of it. One thing I do to integrate myself is I just, when it comes to how I do my job in the day-to-Day, how the systems work, I don’t feel any shyness when emailing someone reaching out to someone. Hopefully they also want to help build up other team members so that they have people to rely on as well. I just do away with any embarrassment about that right away

Angela Louis:

When it comes to your day-to-Day and just getting to know your attorney because everybody’s personalities, their styles are different. So you have to learn the little nuances of the attorney and how they want things. How do you break down those barriers?

Krista Hoormann :

With my attorney now, it was kind of, I don’t want to say it was easy, but it was simpler than some of the attorneys I work for in the past that were much more closed off. Her and I established got to know each other a little bit and she took her time to explain different aspects of it that I hadn’t necessarily seen before and what her expectations were of it, that’s super beneficial for me. And so we started to really get a rhythm going once she saw me meeting those expectations consistently because all I needed to know was to know them.

Claudia Jenkins:

So speaking of expectations, I think that that is a big part of communication and where communication can be broken down and fail if expectations are not known by the attorney and they’re not given to the paralegal or the person who is supposed to be supporting them, or if they are given in one way and then it changes and are given in another way, which can cause a lot of mass confusion. So I was going to say, as far as integrating myself into the firm, I think in some ways I was lucky because I came into a firm that was using a software that a lot of people were not familiar with, and I had already used it previously at a prior firm for, I don’t know, three years. And so I had a lot more knowledge about that program that we use here at Simon.

And so luckily I was able to be one of those people that got to train people individually or in groups. And so I got to know people a little bit more than say other people that might just be coming in because I was actually sitting one-on-one or one in five or whatever. So for me, that kind of helped me get to know a few people in the firm. As Chris was saying, as far as integrating or getting communication from your attorney with expectations, that is a big thing. I work for two attorneys, well, things have changed in the last six months, but one has been practicing for well over 20 years and she knows what she wants, how she wants it, and she’s very easygoing with delegating that out, with making sure that things are clear. It’s very easy to communicate with her because of her communication style. Other attorneys that I’ve worked with in the past are not as experienced as she is, and so they tend to have, they don’t know what they want. And so it can be difficult at times to kind of figure out what they want and then for them to communicate it to me and for me to understand it and then it can go back and forth as far as that goes.

Angela Louis:

I think there’s a misnomer that because you’re a paralegal, because you’ve had another job, because you know how to do paralegal work, that you should just be able to show up day one and know how to do everything. I think there’s this misnomer and then some of that communication doesn’t happen from the start or some of that rapport or direction. Just having clear direction sometimes in terms of expectation is very helpful. But I think there’s a misnomer sometimes when support staff come in at whatever level that they should just know how to do the job. And I don’t think that that is an accurate expectation for anybody coming into a new role to just be able to know what to do when they sit at this job because everything is different. Do you agree with that?

Krista Hoormann :

Absolutely. The work we do is very stylistic. I’ve worked with four different attorneys in the course of my career and they’re all drastically different. And the last one wouldn’t do the same things that the first one would’ve. And even some of the things that we do on my team, it’s not how Claudia does it on her team and it’s a stylistic thing, and these things change depending on what kind of matter we’re working on and what’s the venue and where we’re at. And so there’s a lot of variables in there and different ways it can be done. And it takes a minute to get a feel for who you’re currently working with. Wants to approach things.

Claudia Jenkins:

Yes, and I also would say too, with having experience from working at previous law firms, I also came in here, not sure how much I should just jump right in and show that I’m capable of doing so I think that too plays a part in communication with your attorney. I didn’t want to come in and just be overbearing to show how much exactly I knew what to do. And I think for us here, we rely on the attorneys to communicate with us as far as expectations of, yes, I know that you can write a brief, but it’s not your job here. This is somebody else’s job to do that brief or the attorney rights a brief or just jumping in, knowing how to handle certain cases from start to finish and feeling like you could take ’em and run with them, but then not knowing if you’re able to do that because that may not be that attorney’s style. Does that make sense?

Angela Louis:

If an attorney, maybe they’re solo or smaller and they’ve never had support staff before, how can they utilize support staff, paralegal, secretary, whatever role? How can they utilize a paralegal, for example, who’s sitting in the room right now? How can they utilize you on a daily basis? But I think sometimes it’s almost, I guess granular is what I’m thinking of in terms of even specific tasks. They don’t even know how to delegate. So having to be able to say, Hey, I can do these five things for you right out of the gate, which would open up the floodgates. Do you have just initial thoughts of, you should give me these things, I’ll take care of these, don’t even worry about ’em anymore. What do those look like?

Krista Hoormann :

So one of the first things I try to learn is what are the priorities? Where are the ways I can help you? Currently, I knew, and you were the one that told me this, the calendar, the calendar is the first priority. And that’s very different from my last role where it was handling the clients and speaking to them and trying to mitigate that was number one priority. I mean, it’s part of my priorities here, but they’re just arranged a little bit differently. One of the things that I think worked well for where I’m at now is she asked me, what are your strengths? What are you good at? What are the things you feel comfortable with? And one of my things researching the comparison between local rules and the state rules and things like that, I love finding those little odds and ends. We got a motion for summary judgment dismissed based on one of those, and she let me run with that because it’s helpful to her and not, I mean, I run it by her.

Angela Louis:

So maybe they wouldn’t think of utilizing you as a research tool in terms of research, maybe if they only thought, oh, LawClerk can do that, but paralegals also have that role as support for the attorneys as well.

Krista Hoormann :

Yeah, yeah. I mean, everywhere else I’ve worked, we haven’t had law clerks. And my first role, I mean was it was just me,

Angela Louis:

Which means you were probably ordering supplies as well too and answering phones and writing checks,

Krista Hoormann :

Helping with reception. Yes,

Angela Louis:

All of the things.

Claudia Jenkins:

That was my first job. I did everything. It was just me and one attorney and I did everything from opening up the office to depositing checks into the bank and whatever else. I was a line of communication between the client and the attorney at all times. I did everything from drafting up your contract to writing the interrogatories, to helping with motions and limine, everything. And then when I went to another firm, it was a little bit different there, but I’ve never, this is the first firm I’ve worked at that has had law clerks. So for a little bit, it took me a little bit of time to get used to handing over a lot of what I was used to doing to letting the law clerks do it. And now, I mean, I’m completely fine with that because I definitely fill my days with other things.

Angela Louis:

So we do have more support staff here. So how does that communication trickle down to your peers or to it who’s in the room or Zack, who’s in the room who does intake and goes to trial with you. How does that communication then trickle down to the level that, I guess the doers, right? Essentially where the doers, so what does that look like when the communication transfers that way?

Claudia Jenkins:

I think one of the most important jobs in this firm is intake because I think it’s very important from the beginning to get the correct information out there. And that is a big deal for intake because if we don’t have the correct information, we can’t make the decision whether or not to accept the client or not accept the client.

Angela Louis:

It’s the first person that speaks to someone at our firm typically is that intake department in that intake role.

Zack Zidzik :

I agree. And I think it’s nice having the rapport with the paralegals and the attorneys because again, it’s just been an ever evolving process and we try to get as much information upfront. So again, we can either retain the client or refer them out. But I know working with Krista and Claudia, Hey, what more can we give you? Or how can we help you? How can we get the client in the door? How can we get the contract signed? So working with them closely,

Angela Louis:

And I think it’s a process that we’ve tweaked over time. I don’t think we knew kind of what it translated in terms of your side and what you needed until we started having those conversations. And it’s morphed over since I’ve been here with you. It’s morphed over time in terms of what that looks like. And I think we’ve had a more clear defined process of who does what now once it hits the door and transfers over. So I think being open to that communication and having those internal communications saying, Hey, how about if we look at it this way? I think our firm is very open to having those conversations more often than, Nope, this is the way you do it. This is the way we have always done it. I want to believe that we have those open conversations and tweak things and move things along

Krista Hoormann :

Well. And those are so helpful too because I know for me, coming into the third firm I’ve worked at where I had started out as someone, I did everything from signing them up, returning the initial call. And so when I was seeing them come in here, I was just like, one of my first questions is, well, who does what so that I know that I’m handling my end of things and I’m not stepping on toes or we’re not doing things twice in double work. So those conversations and clarifications on things have really helped just so that I know that I’m doing what I’m supposed to and I’m not making double work for everyone.

Angela Louis:

And then it goes to Marcus, who normally the communication is, I need help immediately. Right now, yesterday your communication style is much different than most in the firm. So from your perspective, do we give you what you need? Do we support you in a way? Is the communication style good for you? What does that look like for you?

Marcus McGill:

I think it’s different. It’s kind of on an individual basis. I think what makes at least this office easy to work in as opposed to some of the other jobs I’ve worked in is that I think we just get along generally and that makes it things really easy. Like Krista was talking about, just not even being nervous to have to ask someone something that makes it a lot easier if you have to be nervous to ask your IT guy about. That’s kind of why I try to be a little silly sometimes because it’s like if your IT guy is just kind of nice and silly, hopefully it’s easier to be like, Hey, I have an issue. Especially if you might, because a lot of times, at least when it’s IT stuff you, you’re doing something wrong and you’re doing something wrong and you don’t want to have to go to someone and be like, I can’t figure this out. So I don’t know. The fact that everyone in this office can get along and kind be kind friends that way, that makes the communication a lot easier, which makes solving the problems much easier.

Zack Zidzik :

Yeah, I think the onboarding week, the initial lunch where you take everybody off campus and you usually take people from their team or people that they’re going to collaborate with, it’s such a nice icebreaker. And again, for me, I previously didn’t come from legal. So again, to talk with everybody in the group and get a better understanding of what the responsibilities were and what I would have to look out for and understanding law and everything, again, I think that’s a huge thing to do is again, take everybody off campus, have lunch, get to bond with them, get to see who you’re going to collaborate with. Because our job is a never ending relay. It comes in, we hand off and then it just kind of circles back. I

Angela Louis:

Never thought about it that way. Never ending relay.

Claudia Jenkins:

I mean, Zack, I think some of our recent intakes, there’s probably been 10 emails back and forth between us, the attorney and you,

Zack Zidzik :

And then keep moving further down. And then after you pass the baton after it comes in and then we get to trial and it just kind of comes back and we see the whole case full circle, it’s nice to see it full circle. It takes a few years, but

Claudia Jenkins:

I didn’t even think about that for you because not only are you intake, you also help with the trials. So we call Zack our trial tech, so you do get to see the ending of a lot of these cases.

Zack Zidzik :

And again, same with the paralegal. It’s like, that’s your baby for two years, 18 months, three years. So I was excited that my very first intake went to trial. I was like, oh, recently? Was that a recent one? No, it was. No, it was a few years ago. But yeah, again, I was just like, oh, I did this intake. I remember speaking with the family and they didn’t remember me, but again, I was like, alright,

Angela Louis:

You can see your work come full circle as you say. So that’s pretty cool. How does your communication style, I guess, change or morph as you get through the entire process right from the start to the finish going to trial? I think your communication style typically probably may change. Maybe it’s a little bit more intense, maybe it’s a little bit more often. What does that look like through the life? Zack, take us through the life of your,

Zack Zidzik :

I think it all depends on who you’re communicating with from the secretary to the paralegal to the, what do we have? 14 attorneys. Every single attorney has a different communication style. Some of them are very similar, but working with John Simon is not working with Johnny Simon or working with Erica is not working with Amy. And again, they’re all fantastic to work for. I’m happy I’ve been able to go to trial with every single attorney, including our new ones. Again, everybody’s, have you

Marcus McGill:

Ever waited tables or bartended? I have.

That’s a skill that you learned in a job like that. It is a very kind of, you don’t think about it, but super great to have a job. You learn how to interact with people, lots of different types of people, and you need to engage with them differently if you want to get the response from them that you want. Correct. So there are certain types of guys that if you just call them sir and shake their hand as a young man, you just immediately won, immediately want. And you figure little things like that out. And you’re right, Johnny and John, very different people to interact with.

Zack Zidzik :

When we did the Myers-Briggs in the office, it was so wild to see everybody who were like, oh, we have the same personality style. Oh, I have a conflicting personality style with the attorney I work for. But yet we worked so well together and it was just so odd to see. And then once everybody got split up, and I don’t know if you guys were here for that, but it was, we

Angela Louis:

Need to bring that back around. I think it

Claudia Jenkins:

Was fun.

Angela Louis:

It was a fun exercise,

Zack Zidzik :

Correct. And we did it staff and then the attorneys, and then the attorney saw who the staff’s personalities were and who they were compatible with. So again, it was just kind of mind blowing, but

Angela Louis:

I think it also allowed you to go, even though we have these differences, this is how I need to communicate with Marcus. This is how I need to communicate with Krista. And it’s going to be different, just like you just said, with waiting tables, it’s going to be different. We need to get to the same end result, which is supporting our attorneys, which then supports our clients, which then that is why we’re here is the clients.

Claudia Jenkins:

Well, and I think that’s where the different communication styles come in and we have to be effective and efficient with our communication. And if we as paralegals are not coming off effective or efficient, then in some ways I would expect the attorney to give us that sort of feedback so that way we can make sure, because as a paralegal, we are here because we want to be here. We’re here to help the attorney be the best that they can be. And we cannot be efficient or effective at our job if we’re not getting some sort of feedback from the attorney that we’re working with in order to do our job correctly. Because I don’t know about you, but I, and I hate to say this because my family is my top priority, but my job is my job and I think about it more than the eight hours a day that I’m here.

I don’t want to do anything that will affect any of the attorneys in a negative way. So if I’m communicating wrong, then I want to know that. Or if you’d prefer me to communicate in a different way, then I want to know that just like with the attorney, I want them to communicate what they need efficiently so that way I can be effective for the client. Because at the end of the day, that’s who we’re here for. We want to get the best result that we can for our client. And so everybody kind of has to work cohesively and collaborate and efficiently and effectively. But it’s true.

Angela Louis:

It is true.

Zack Zidzik :

Well, I think our paralegals do a fantastic job of client relationship. Again, case in point, by the time we get to trial, and you just see that the relationship our clients have with the paralegal and the support staff versus their relationship with the attorney, again, it’s just our case over the summer. The kids are in here running around the office with our support staff and while mom was in trial, and again, just that constant communication between the paralegal mom and even Marcus was in here running around with the

Angela Louis:

Kids playing. I picked up kids and watched them during the day. I think we’ve all taken our turn in terms of making sure that the clients are supported and that we’re taking care of sometimes those kids, the extra kids that may not need to be in trial.

Krista Hoormann :

One of the values of this firm that I identified with most coming in here because job search for a long time because I wanted to stay put, was that the client comes first Without the people that sign those contracts, we don’t have jobs or we don’t have well-paying jobs. And I mean, these are people that are coming to us in their hour of need and that is a strong value here, and that’s one of the things I value most.

Claudia Jenkins:

Yeah, I agree with you because it’s very important for me to work at a place that is ethical and has morals. I have built so many bonds with the clients that we have. I mean, it wouldn’t be unusual for them to come in for a depo and for us to hug each other because we’ve talked to each other so much on the phone that we’ve really gotten to know each other, and they do come here in one of the worst times of their lives for the most part, especially if you’re handling a birth injury case or a wrongful death case. Those are absolutely devastating.

Krista Hoormann :

They’re permanent.

Claudia Jenkins:

Yeah.

Angela Louis:

Yeah. Well, I think you both just summed up the communication style. It went with how you can talk to your attorneys and communicate well and effectively with your attorneys, but then it also transferred into the client and then building relationships and then seeing the end result in their time of need. So you kind of have summed up this communication topic for us in terms of the why we do what we do, how can we do our job effectively and efficiently, but also how can we serve the client

Zack Zidzik :

And how do you put that on a job posting That is what you need to be a paralegal. I think that’s just one of the things that goes without saying or you can’t teach it. And again, it should just happen. You don’t have to be told that. It

Krista Hoormann :

Definitely is a bit of a sensitivity or a sixth sense thing, especially when it comes to the attorneys, what you’re saying. If they could just tell us what they want all the time, yes, that would be fantastic, but it’s not always possible. With our cases that were coming up to trial, I’ve worked with several other attorneys including yours, and when I worked with yours, I was like, I know she’s going to tell me what she needs. I don’t have to ask her. I’ll probably just be bugging her versus some other ones. And some attorneys I’ve worked with in the past where I have to keep bugging them like, Hey, what about this? Hey, this is now today. What about this? So it’s a bit of a learning curve to see how they operate, and that is how it infer from that over time to see how I can best support them.

Claudia Jenkins:

Well, and I think you’re right too when you say that about having that sixth sense because you almost have to proactively think in your head what’s coming next or what to expect next or what you are going to be expected to do next. And that again goes along with Zack saying that you can’t really teach some of those things.

Zack Zidzik :

No, and I agree, and I think that that’s what makes you guys strong paralegals. It’s you’re proactive and then anticipation. Yes, that’s right. Word, anticipation, anticipation all the way through trial. And I know we keep coming back to trial, but again, it’s anticipation like I’m anticipating you using this. I’m anticipating you doing this. I’m anticipating you saying this wrong. Based off following your direct outline or your cross-examination outline, I am going to anticipate you were going to say this wrong and I’m going to have it right

Krista Hoormann :

For you.

Angela Louis:

I think it leads very nicely into our next topic, which is organization

Speaker 1:

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