EP 503- Mentorship with Mary Simon Part One

Episode Notes

Transcript

Speaker 1:

Welcome to The Jury is Out a podcast for trial attorneys who want to sharpen their skills and better serve their clients. Your co-hosts are John Simon, founder of the Simon Law Firm Tim Cronin personal injury trial attorney at the Simon Law Firm and St. Louis. Attorney Erich Vieth

Erich Vieth:

Welcome to another episode of The Jury is Out. I’m Erich Vieth.

Mary Simon:

I’m Mary Simon.

John Simon:

I’m John Simon.

Erich Vieth:

Today’s episode will feature mentorship. There’s a lot of aspects of this. We’ve all been both mentored by people we treasure and we have all served as mentors. So we’re going to start this off by talking about the general importance of mentorship and let it go from there. Mary, you suggested this topic and we all thought this is a good one. What are your initial thoughts?

Mary Simon:

It’s always fun having an opportunity to talk about the importance of mentorship when I get to do it with my dad, who is probably the most influential mentor professionally in my life. I’d be remiss if I didn’t say my mom was pretty much up there in terms of life mentorship she might take the cake for,

John Simon:

Oh, she’s a pretty good mentor professionally too. She has been for me over the years. I know that

Mary Simon:

That’s exactly right. When I

John Simon:

Talked to her about a case and she rips it up and I’m like, well, guess I’ll start over. That’s

Mary Simon:

The most important type of mentorship you can ask for. So

John Simon:

No, I’m not joking at all. He’s not. I’ll start talking to her about the case that she doesn’t want hear about and then when I finally get her attention and she starts listening to the facts, she hones in almost immediately, like instinctively on the two or three worst things in my case and starts asking me multiple questions about what about this and that and when did this happen and why didn’t you? And I’m like, well, that’s not the point.

Mary Simon:

And my favorite feedback that my mom will give both of us is, I don’t know why you guys have to make this so complicated as we’re trying to prepare down. That’s perhaps the most important type of mentorship is complete and utter honesty as you continue to move through your cases. So obviously for my dad and I both, Margie Simon is number one mentor for both of us and I both

John Simon:

Personally and professionally.

Mary Simon:

That’s exactly right. It’s important to talk about mentorship because I have been so privileged with the opportunity to have my mentor also kind of built in to my everyday life. And I never really learned that much about what it means to have a mentor until I started hearing people talk about it in law school because I already had one. So I didn’t have to go seek out an attorney to be my so-called mentor. But the more that I learn about it, the more I learn of how important it is. And so I thought today it would be timely and relevant to have a discussion about what it means to have a mentor and the importance of it. So with that, I was kind of curious, when did not having an attorney in your family, when did you learn about what a mentor was? Did you just get one?

John Simon:

I didn’t get one. I guess the first four or five years or so, I was always sort of independent minded. I’d be that person that I’m going to figure this out on my own, didn’t seek out help. And it was really a mistake. And it wasn’t until I actually went to the second firm I was with, I changed firms and started doing plaintiff stuff and I went from a really big firm with over a hundred lawyers to one that had 12 and they did a lot of Litigation, a lot of trial work. I tried a lot of cases and in that firm, the first job I had most new lawyers, I was second and third lawyer on the case and I’d watch more depositions or motions than I was actually doing or handling myself. And then the next firm I was kind of thrown into, here are the cases and here are the trial settings.

And I really reached out out of necessity. I was freaking out going, whoa, what the heck? And I would talk to the other lawyers and then I learned so much, not just from talking to ’em but watching them. It was an environment where everybody was helping each other out. A small firm, everybody was always in trial. When somebody was in trial, everybody dropped everything and helped ’em out. Kind of like the environment here. It wasn’t a situation where I said, oh, I need a mentor. I’m going to seek out a mentor. Would you be my mentor? A formal kind of thing. There were certain people who I would go to and I really went to them because they knew what they were doing. They were real smart, they were good at it, but they also didn’t mind me being there asking ’em. They liked actually showing me and teaching me what I needed.

Now everybody that I’ve worked with over the years that do not, everybody doesn’t fit that profile. I’ve learned that the people who are genuinely good mentors who actually want to take the time to teach you stuff, those are few, most of the time everybody’s busy. Some people flat out don’t want to talk to you about anything. Other people want to do that, but they’re too busy. So if you can find somebody who actually is willing to take the time to explain things to you and show you how things need to be done or talk to you about issues in your case, man, that is just gold. Someone

Mary Simon:

Who actually wants you to

John Simon:

Succeed. We have 10 or 12 law clerks at any given time here at the firm. I teach at the law school. And so I’m involved with a lot of law students, very young lawyers. I’ll get asked to write a letter of recommendation or give ’em some ideas in terms of the job search. And I always give this advice and I’m sure it’s rarely taken. And that is if I had to do it all over again, I would not go to the firm or accept the job that pays me the most money. I would look for the place where it was most likely that the people there were going to take the time to show me and teach me. And I say that, I say find a place, even if they found a firm they interviewed, they give an offer and they’ll be talking to me about it.

And I’ll say, who are the people there? The person, the person that you’re going to be working under directly, what kind of person is that? Do you ’em? Do you get along with ’em? I would advise any young lawyer in a job search, whether it’s their first job or their third job or second job, take a job with the place where you’re going to learn the most, the quickest, where they’re going to let you do things, where you have people that you can actually work with and ask questions. Because if you are just cogging the machine, you’re just not going to learn anything.

Mary Simon:

And it almost sounds like there’s a couple different places that folks are getting mentors from. And one is structurally there are systems in place that you can get one, whether it’s you’re at a law school that has an adjunct to also happens to be a practicing attorney, which is also, it’s excellent that way. And also it sounds like what you’re saying dad, is whenever you’re going to look at a job and you have your growth, your personal growth and your career and where you’re going to be able to do that is where you are going to go to a place that has good mentors. And it almost sounds like what you’re saying is when you’re looking for a job and you’re getting interviewed, you need to be doing a little bit of the interviewing yourself

John Simon:

And not just somebody that’s going to take the time to explain something to you, but you need to be at a firm too that you’re actually going to get to do things. Most of the time. I think the highest salaries, the biggest pay, the highest pay are at the bigger firms. And those are firms where your track in terms of what you’re able to do is a lot slower. You might not be taking depositions in the first year or two. You’re not being given the ability to do things that you would at a smaller firm. Now the smaller firms might not pay as much, but I think it’s just really a matter of what you’re learning. That’s the most important thing. Now lemme just say this, if I had somebody who I knew and trusted and they gave me that advice when I was getting out of law school, I wouldn’t have followed it, alright. I would’ve said, wait a minute, this job pays $8,000 more. Yeah, no thanks. Got the loans to pay off and everything else. I get that. I understand that. But it might not be your first job maybe who knows? But

Mary Simon:

What’s significant about that is from a mentor perspective is you can always advise or get advice from a mentor that’s telling you, I understand the circumstance that you’re in right now. This could be the most feasible or correct place for you to be in for now, but don’t let it be where you plant yourself for the next 20 years. It’s okay to do that now, but come see me in two years when you’re in a little bit of a better position to,

John Simon:

So I give everybody another tip or advice. I mean it helped me the first job I had. It was a great firm. Great firm, good people there. I just didn’t like it. I didn’t like it. It wasn’t a good fit for me. I spent four and a half years there and part of it was I just wasn’t being given an opportunity to do much. I didn’t think I was being challenged. I was kind of doing the same things over and over, a lot of research, reviewing documents, getting paid very, very well. And I was not real thrilled to be there. I was just not looking forward to going to work some days. And what happened is one day driving to work, I just told myself, absolutely this is not going to be permanent. You’re either the position there, this isn’t my forever. This isn’t my forever.

Exactly. And once I told myself that and convinced myself of that, that you’re either going to be doing something different here that’s a little more likable or you’re going to be doing it somewhere else. And as soon as I made that decision that as you say Mary, that it’s not a forever, I kind of liked it a lot more. It was more knowing that it’s not permanent. I’d look around and I’d say, okay, you’re doing this because you’re second, you’re a lawyer. I’d look at somebody who’d been there eight or 10 years and obviously they’re doing something a little bit more challenging. You always need to be trying to improve yourself and who wants to work in an environment where you’re not really engaging with the people you work with? I mean, isn’t that the part of going to work and part of the experience? I’d rather be at a place where the work is 10 times harder and more challenging and you’re working with people who are all in the same boat with you and you’re all helping each other than a place where that just isn’t happening.

Erich Vieth:

One of my favorite quotes by Frederick Nietzsche, and here it is, his disciple cried, but I believe in your cause and I consider it so strong that I shall say everything that I still have in my mind against it. The innovator laughed in his heart and wagged his finger at him, this kind of discipleship he said is the best. It reminds me of a lot of things. Number one, we’re in a position when we pick mentors, it’s weird, it’s upside down. How can you pick a mentor? You don’t know what you need, right? I mean you’re hoping you’re going maybe on instinct. It’s kind of like Luke Skywalker throwing the instrumentation away to go to the dust star going on the instincts. But I think what, looking back at it, what really works for me is I want to become my own mentor. And that’s really kind of impossible, but it’s not impossible to make sure you keep alive skepticism and challenging your own ideas, but not so much that you get locked down and you’re afraid to do anything. So you want be not blithely dancing into danger, but you don’t want to be so afraid that you’re

Mary Simon:

Paralyzed,

Erich Vieth:

You’re afraid to leave your bed because everything might go wrong. There’s got to be some balance to this. And I think back to my mentors, I’m thinking way back, this is way before law. My mom used to ask me real simple questions, the kind where John, we talk about philosophy every once in a while. What is time? And I forget the philosopher who said this, everybody knows what it is until you start thinking about it. And then you’re befuddled. You don’t know what to say about it. And I don’t know what time is, but we know what time it is when we look at our watch. But she would do that, I would say to me or with me. And that got me thinking, that put me on a track. And my dad was much more, he had more vocabulary and more assurance and confidence, but my mom was sitting there asking simple questions, asking the right questions, and that got me going.

And I think that’s one thing that I noticed about good mentors when you first encounter him. It’s kind of like, I don’t know about this. They’re telling me things I’m not comfortable with. I’ve never heard this before. And that’s the only way I think you grow is you get challenged and then you grow. But these mentors that I’ve met over the years, including people from all walks of life, I think they’re all around us to some extent. There’s small M and big M mentors, but if I subtracted the top 20, if I had to just say, who are the people I think were the most important to me, if I took the top 20 people out of my life, I’d be uninteresting. It would destroy who I am not to have those people, it is so important to have those people. And I know John, we talked often, I compliment you and you hate being complimented, but you’ve been a mentor to me too.

And I know that you say you get these ideas from other people too. And we’re all part of this big convoluted world where we pick things up that we find useful and challenging and useful, and then it becomes, if it’s really good, if you’ve got a really good mentor and you don’t see it, it’s a reciprocal relationship. You’re not seeing that that other person is picking. I’m sure I’ve influenced you back the other way too, but you don’t see that. You’re just thinking, I’m just getting from my mentors and when it’s best, it’s really, it’s a reciprocal, vibrant relationship.

Mary Simon:

It’s fascinating hearing you talk about how you want to mentor who challenges you in the right ways. I think some of the best feedback I’ve ever gotten from one of my mentors is when I’m approaching a topic and saying, I’ve got this and this and this going on, and I’m just so I’m nervous. A classic example is you’re going to an attorney who has years and years on you and you go and ask a question and all you’re thinking about is all the what if I do this and then this goes wrong or then I’m worried about this. And sometimes the best feedback that I get from one of my mentors is, so what? Take the risk, do the thing, move forward, make a decision. And so what? Just Gogo forth, make your decision and go with it. And I think that that’s not someone telling me exactly what to do.

It’s someone putting it back on me to say, you got this. Make the decision. I hear all that stuff you’re worried about, whatever, just Gogo. Make your decision. Just do something. Just do something and make it and stop stirring in this space. And I think oftentimes I picture what a mentor can really do for you is if you’re climbing up a staircase, so to speak, and you’re at the landing and you don’t know whether or not what your next move is going to be, at least your mentor can get you to pick up your foot to go to the next step. And I think that’s such a significant piece of what it means to me to have a mentor is you don’t have to stay stuck. You don’t have to stay stuck for too long because a mentor is going to help you make a move one way or another. If it’s someone that you can trust and it’s the same voice that’s telling you, you will make mistakes. So you go to your mentor to say, I’ve got all these worries and concerns. And they’re like, got it. You will make mistakes. So what are we do? Just go ahead and make a decision and move forward. And sometimes it’s challenging, but it’s the best feedback and you don’t get that unless you’re in that sort of reciprocal relationship with someone. You’ve

Erich Vieth:

Reminded me that quote, 90% of life is being there, right? It’s like you got to show up or you miss out. The whole thing just goes on by

John Simon:

How these relationships are started. And obviously there are some that your parents, I mean you’re born, you have parents and you’re one of your parents, your mother, your father might be a mentor. But I’m thinking about the workplace mentors and I’m thinking back on some of the wonderful people who I’ve worked with who’ve helped me develop and become who I am and taught me how to practice law and how I first met him and what drew me to them. George Fitz Simmons, who’s here, he’s of Counsel. He was one of my first mentors in the law practice and I was a four year lawyer, changed firms, went to work for George at a firm with 12 lawyers. We did plaintiff stuff, a lot of trial stuff. I stayed there for 10 years working with George and the first time that I met him or really talked to him about anything, we had obviously as a new lawyer, all of the cases, nobody wanted found their way to my desk, of course. And I’ve got all these wonderful files that I’m digging through and I’m going, what? And one of them,

Mary Simon:

I know how that goes.

John Simon:

Yeah, one of ’em literally was a case and it was like eight years old, this case, I think I was in high school or something when the incident happened. And so I decided, I looked at the file and it looked like nobody had contacted the client in some time. So I started going through the files and introducing myself. And I noticed that I was the eighth lawyer over the last five years that worked, looked on a case. And so I called this client who was out of town and he just went off on me about the time and how much time and all of this stuff. And it had been like, it was eight years since the incident. And so after I got done talking to him and taking notes, look at the file, I walked down to George’s office and talked about it and I said, George, this poor guy, he’s been eight years in this and that.

And George said, why is he so impatient? And so of course George was joking and we both started laughing and I was like, real serious, we got to do this and that. And the case had all kinds of issues and problems with it, that’s why it had been around so long. But the thing that drew me to him was he never took himself or anything else too seriously. You’d get all worked up about something and he’d go, well, okay, I talked to him about I got this case and they made this offer and here’s what the client thinks and that, and here was our demand and here’s some of the issues in the case and it’s ready to Gogo to trial. And I’d say, what should we do? Do we accept the settlement? Do we lower our offer, do whatever. And George’s answer was always the same.

Always. He’d say, is it a good case? And I’d go, yeah, do you like your client? You got a good client. George would say, well, I think I’d get their permission and just go ahead and try it. And it was over and over and over again. And I tried. The first 12 months I was there, I think I tried 10 cases, two verdicts, civil cases, and I had tried one or been involved in one in the four and a half years before that. And I won. I had one where I was the actual trial lawyer and George, it continued. Our offices were next to each other, which was great for me. Maybe not so much for George because I was running in there all the time. Talk about when

Mary Simon:

We move offices, guess whose office I picked, I think to be next to,

John Simon:

Next to, is there a hole in the wall? So you can do not yet. So one of the things George loved to do is he would try to settle a case and if the case didn’t settle, and they were usually smaller like auto cases or a slip and fall case, and this happened at least once a month, I would have a file sitting on my desk with a yellow post-it on it, and all it would say is Monday Division 16. Oh my gosh. And it was set for trial and I’d usually get it on a Wednesday, sometimes a Thursday, sometimes a Friday. And I would look at the file and it would be like two inches thick and it would be some auto accident. And I would find myself sitting in the office in the conference room, meeting the client for the first time. And here’s, I’m your lawyer.

But I tried, God knows how many cases I tried because of that way where it was just on my desk and I had stuff going on and all of a sudden I’m trying this case and meeting the client and it was just fabulous. I mean, it was just terrific and it was just what I needed. I needed to get in there and get cases. And obviously George knew that, but every time he used to say, so tell me this, if you’ve got a good case and a good client, he’d say, who do you think is going to pay more money? An insurance adjuster whose job it is not to pay you ever or 12 jurors in the city of St. Louis. And again, I’d be laughing about it and nodding and he’d say, just go try the case. And it was getting over that I have to win or I have. You don’t have to do anything, just give it your best and go try the case and get your client’s consent and permission and go try it.

Erich Vieth:

That is the prototypical mentor. I think they’re everywhere. And you might see them as an adversary. In fact, it might be your opponent in a case who says something and you go, that’s a lesson. That’s something I needed to hear. Maybe you were wrong about something and you benefit from somebody just being honest with you. I remember I was in a trial where the topic was an insurance policy and it was drudgery we’re chewing through the clauses and what they meant. And at a break the judge said, Erich, you’re putting them to sleep. And I’m thinking, that’s right. I need to get better. I need to condense this thing. That was a lesson. Thank

Mary Simon:

You. Thank

Erich Vieth:

You. Right.

John Simon:

Who was it? The judge told

Erich Vieth:

You that?

John Simon:

Yeah, in a nice way. That’s good. During the break.

Erich Vieth:

During break because I think they’re putting ’em to sleep could

John Simon:

Have been worse.

Mary Simon:

It is kind of interesting to think about mentorship in all different forms. One of the first cases that I worked on, it was an attorney who I probably was closer in age to his grandchildren than him and the different type of intimidation tactics that he would use with me. And gosh, it was tough having that to be one of my first cases. And I remember going to my dad saying, gosh, this guy, he just is saying this and telling me to get coffee during depositions. And I mean, it was really kind of jarring to me. I wasn’t expecting it. And my dad, without even batting an eye, he just said, you are going to learn so much from this experience. And I was like, well, that was interesting. Not the feedback I was expecting to get, but he was just kind of like, Gogo, get back in the deposition, get back in the case. You’re going to learn so much from him and from this interaction that

John Simon:

Not necessarily the goods that you’re going to learn. Exactly.

Mary Simon:

It’s not

John Simon:

Going to be a good experience, but you will learn.

Mary Simon:

Yes. And it’ll make you a better lawyer because of it. And I remember at the end of the case, shaking the guy’s hand and saying, I have learned so much working with you, thank you so much. And I did it and wished him well. And sometimes I run into him every now and again and always ask how he’s doing, but I will never forget the lessons I learned and I wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to do that if I had a mentor who pulled me out and went in to fix Instead. It was just like, yep, you can say that stuff in my office and then go get back at it. And I promise even if you can’t see it now, you’re going to learn a significant

John Simon:

Amount. One of the things that George also drilled into my head very early on was it’s the whole idea of trying to be professional. Just like you were saying, civil, civil to people and not fighting about things that you don’t need to fight about. And George’s reason for that was a lot more practical. And he said, John, why would you give somebody who bills by the hour extra motivation? I didn’t argue. And I thought, wow, that’s a good point. And that is really it is getting along with people. He used to always tell me, keep it simple. Speaking of keeping it simple, I’ll always remember this. One of the first cases that I worked on with George, it was in federal court and there was a pretrial due and I was literally at the firm for a month and he hands me this file and it was a big commercial case.

And George said, here, the pretrials due and go ahead and prepare it. And I gave it to him, I prepared it, I filed all, I was trying to talk to him about it, and he kind of just forced me to do it all on my own. And so I drafted about 20 or 25 motions in limine. I responded to all the defendant’s motions and I got no feedback. He just signed it and filed it, read it, signed it, and filed it. So we show up at the pretrial and we’re in federal court and I was kind of proud of all this wonderful work I had done and put all these motions together. And the judge asks us, asked George, does the plaintiff have any motions? And of course we had 26 or 25 or whatever. I drafted ’em and filed them. And George says, no, your honor.

So anyway, your stomach drops. And then we start going through the defense motions and we’re on number eight. And every one of ’em, George is saying, judge, we don’t have a problem with that. No issue. Yeah, we got no issue with that. We got no issue with that. And we’re moving right along. And we get to number nine. And he says, now, your Honor, we have a big problem with this one. And of course we won that one. And that was the only motion that was really dispositive or a real issue for us. But I just learned, not only did he keep it simple, the judge was very happy with us because we were so accommodating. And by waiting, by agreeing to all these other motions, it just emphasized that, holy cow, this one must really be wrong, be a bad motion. It was just a great example

Erich Vieth:

That was show don’t tell. Because when I think of a mentor, I think of somebody telling somebody younger, here’s what you need to do and here’s some rules and here’s what to avoid. But there’s so much of mentoring and about relationships that’s not verbal. It’s about showing someone, it was probably shocking to you to hear ’em say, we don’t have any emotions to present. But the lesson stuck.

John Simon:

It’s vivid. I have so many memorable positive stories, great stories with George. And another one that comes to mind was, I was in trial and I had to take an expert’s deposition in another case. And that case I couldn’t continue it. I had needed to have somebody go in and take it. And so it was a videotaped deposition. They were taking it for trial. And I remember George took, in those days it was videotape where you take the actual video and carry the big tape and carry it back to the office. And so of course I come back from trial and there’s this videotape sitting on my desk with a post-it on it, and it says, watch this.

That’s all it said. And it had to do with a case where our client was having surgery and his blood pressure spiked and he ended up having a stroke and just horrible, terrible result. And so after my trial was over, a few days later, I pop it in and I’m sitting there with a cup of coffee watching it. And it was now, had I taken that deposition and I was prepared to take it, it would’ve been an hour and a half, an hour long. And George’s was about 12 minutes. It was about a 12 minute deposition. And what he did is he pulled one of the doctor’s books, he was in the conference room waiting for the doctor, and the other lawyer was back in the doctor’s office prepping him for the deposition. And George was looking at the doctor’s books and found one of the books, and it was on stroke and Rising, blood pressure or whatever.

And so George pulls the book off the shelf during the cross-examine, no, asked the doctor to pull the book off the shelf and turn to chapter three, page, whatever. And it basically said, these are the signs of stroke, and when this happens, you need to do this. And then there was another section about how our client was not a candidate, wasn’t a candidate for stroke, it was something that they did with the medication or whatever that made it spike. And then finally, right after that, he says, he’s talking to him about the actual chart from the medical record, and it’s got numbers on it where they chart minute by minute, the blood pressure and it got so high they couldn’t chart it there. So they write the numbers in up top. And George goes, so doctor, why did they quit writing the numbers there? Or what are those numbers? Because it wasn’t the chart ended. He goes, I see you mean the blood pressure. That’s what they mean when they say it’s off the chart, the blood pressure. But it was a 12 minute, 15 minute deposition, very short, extremely effective. And I’m sitting there just smiling watching it, and I’m so glad that I didn’t have the opportunity to take that deposition. But another good lesson learned, simpler is better.

Mary Simon:

And I also think for any attorney who has a mentor within their office, it’s just as significant to have one outside of your own office. I think that it’s fantastic when you can build relationships with attorneys who are, if you see somebody who’s doing something or moving forward in their career in a way that you think is admirable, just go get a cup of coffee with them and talk to them. It can be someone you run into in the courthouse and just catch up with them. One thing that’s hilarious is that I think lawyers are of a profession that we always want to talk about what we do for a living. I mean, let’s be real here. There’s no one who is going to say no if you just want to go meet up with them and talk to them about their practice and what they do for a living. I teach trial advocacy at St. Louis University, and I always tell my students, if you want to ever grab a cup of coffee or if there’s a particular type of law that you want to do, ask me and I will make sure that you get connected with somebody. And it is, it’s rare that they actually follow up and do that, but it has such an immense impact for the students who choose to do it. Building those relationships is so key to getting that sort of mentorship.

Erich Vieth:

That wraps up part one of our discussion on mentorship. We’ll be back with part two next time. This has been another episode of The. Jury is Out. I’m Erich Fe.

Mary Simon:

I’m Mary Simon.

John Simon:

I’m John Simon. And we’ll see you next time.

Speaker 1:

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