Breaking Barriers: The 100-Year Legacy of Women on the Texas Supreme Court

Episode Notes

Transcript

Rocky Dhir:

Hi, and welcome to the State Bar of Texas Podcast. The more I do this show, the more I grow to love Texas. I’m glad we’re a lone star state because I don’t think the world can handle twice the dose of awesomeness. How awesome are we? Well, let’s do a little trivia and find out. Alright, now, if you know the answers to these and you’re sitting with somebody, don’t tell them. No spoilers. Okay? We want to see if people can figure this out. Who was the first female governor of Texas? Okay, we’re going to do a short version of the Jeopardy song. Her name was Miriam, a Ferguson, AKA Ma. When did she take office? Do you know? You’re probably thinking was the 1970s, maybe the 1960s? Maybe it was the 1950s. Maybe we were that far ahead. Get this, it was January 20th, 1925. Here’s a true false question.

1925 was also the year that Texas had its first all woman’s Supreme Court. That’s actually a trick question. It’s true, but that was the year of the first all woman high court anywhere in the USA. We were first baby Texas. That’s how awesome we were. First time that ever happened. So in 1925, the Lone Star State featured three stars comprised of three very special Texas lawyers who made history under some very unique circumstances. Now I don’t want to give any more away. This is perhaps the most fascinating piece of history I’ve gotten to explore in a very, very long time. So let’s step back and go back to 1925, the height of the Roaring twenties. And we have two very special guests to take us back to this amazing moment in history. First we have Jennifer Walker Elrod. She’s the chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.

She’s been on the court since 2007 and before that she was the judge of the hundred 90th civil district court in Harris County. Judge Elrod absolutely slayed the economics curriculum at Baylor University and went on to graduate from Harvard Law School. Alright, this is starting to make me question my own self-worth. Okay, I’m feeling kind of unaccomplished. I’m feeling like a nobody here. So we’re going to stop there with the lro bio. We’re going to move on to Sharon Sandle, the executive director of the Texas Supreme Court Historical Society. A nonprofit dedicates itself to teaching the public about the role of our judiciary in moving Texas forward. But Sharon doesn’t stop there. She directs the law practice resources division of the State Bar of Texas. In that role, she oversees the publishing of Texas Bar Books, the Law Practice Management Program, and one of my favorites Ji, the Texas Opportunity and Justice Incubator. So now I’m left with a question. I don’t know which of these ladies I want to be when I grow up. All I know is that we’ve got lots of awesomeness on this show and I want to know more about this awesome all Woman Supreme Court in 1925. So let’s get started. Judge, Sharon, welcome to the podcast.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Thanks so much, Rocky. It’s a pleasure to be with you today and I am always happy to spend time with Sharon Sandle, who does so much for our bar and our Supreme Court and who I’m also proud to claim as my friend. So thank you Sharon for being with me today.

Sharon Sandle:

Likewise, judge Elrod. I am so happy to be here today and very honored to be on the same podcast with you. This is going to be great.

Rocky Dhir:

I want to be a Sharon friend too. I want to be an Elrod friend, tired of being third wheel, but let’s start with the elephant in the room. So how this all woman Supreme Court came about? Did the voters of Texas elect nine women to the Supreme Court in 1925? Is that what happened?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

No, that did not happen. What happened was there was this really interesting case, somewhat interesting case called Johnson Vidar. It involved an organization that all of the Texas Supreme Court justices were members of, and because all the justices were members of this fraternal organization, they all recused. And so Governor Pat Neff had to appoint three women to hear the case. I mean, there was not a man who was not a member, a lawyer man who was not a member of the group.

Rocky Dhir:

As I understand it, this is called Woodman of the World, is that right?

Sharon Sandle:

Also known as Wow, yes. Woodman of the World. Wow. It was an interesting organization because it really was a very politically powerful organization. As Judge Elrod pointed out, all of the sitting Supreme Court justices were members of this fraternal organization and pretty much every male lawyer and they just really had a lot of cloud in the state of Texas. The way it worked is it was a fraternal organization and they sold insurance. If you bought insurance through them, then you became a Woodman of the world and you were part of their fraternal organization.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Wow. Than insurance.

Rocky Dhir:

What I’m cracking up at is that wow is just one letter off from now. So you’ve got Woodman of the world helping to do something that would be celebrated by the National Organization for Women, so Texas. Awesome. We’re creating all kinds of craziness here. What was this case? How did wow end up in court?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Well, the case started in 1922 in El Paso County and it had to do with clear title to tracks of land and a bench trial. This is exciting. I don’t really want to talk about the case.

Sharon Sandle:

It’s not the most glamorous case at all.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

So it’s about this land and it’s about title to the land. But what I think is really interesting is that Governor Neff decided to appoint three women and on January 1st, 1925, he appointed three women. Two of those women were not actually eligible to sit. They hadn’t practiced for seven years. There were very few practicing women lawyers at the time.

Sharon Sandle:

Yeah, in fact, I think there were only about 30 women who were licensed to practice in Texas 30.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

So Ly Robertson of Granberry and Edith Wilman of Dallas. Neither one of them were eligible to serve. So although he picked them, they couldn’t serve. Oh wow.

Rocky Dhir:

Okay.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

10 Sparks Ward could serve and the governor remedied it really quickly. Robertson and Wilman withdrew their names and Neff appointed Ruth Brazel of Galveston and Hattie hen Inberg of Dallas to serve. And so that became the All Woman Supreme Court in 1925, Hattie Hindenberg, Ruth Brazel and four 10 Sparks Award as the presiding judge

Rocky Dhir:

We just talked a moment ago about, her name was Ma who became the first female governor of Texas. That was also 1925. So Governor Neff is making this appointment just I guess a matter of weeks, not even three weeks before she takes over as governor. So 1925 was kind of a big year

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Was I think it would’ve been interesting to be there in 1925 and to see all this unfold. But there had been a lot going on in the few years before that for 10 Sparks. Ward had passed the Texas Bar exam in 1910 and she was the third woman ever admitted to the state bar of Texas. She practiced law with her husband and she was a leader in the women’s suffragette movement and she helped pass a married women’s property law. 1913. She was the first woman to ever register to vote in Harris County, Texas.

Rocky Dhir:

Wow.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

And she is said to have persuaded nearly 386,000 women to register to vote in a span of 17 days before the 1918 primary. So she was a force to be reckoned with in terms of voting and marital property law and other things.

Rocky Dhir:

Taylor Swift got nothing on this gal, I tell you.

Sharon Sandle:

I think she’s who I want to grow up to be like is Cortent Spark’s word? Because she really was a force of nature and she wrote a pamphlet called Instructions for Women Voters and that was distributed throughout the state and that was part of the reason why she was so successful in getting that huge amount of voter registration in 1918. And this was really at the point where Texas was trying to figure out whether women were going to be entitled to vote or not. And she was just a huge proponent of that.

Rocky Dhir:

So I want to learn more about these women. So let’s take a quick break. We’re going to hear from one of our sponsors when we come back, judge Lro and Sharon Sandle. They’re going to talk to us more not only about Hortense but about the other two women on the court. We’re going to find out a little bit more about them and maybe we’ll get a chance to talk a little bit about being a female practicing in Texas back in those days. So stay tuned. Don’t go anywhere. Listen to our sponsors. We’ll be back in just a Guys, we are back. This has been a lot of fun. Alright, so we’re talking about the all woman Texas Supreme Court in believe it or not, 1925. That took me for a loop and now we’re going to talk a little bit about these three women who served on the bench at this very special. Basically all the men in Texas had to recuse themselves, so he found these three very special women to fill the role. Alright, so we were talking about Horten. I just love the name, that’s why I’m calling her by first name. I love the name Horten. Is there more we can learn about Horten before we move on to the other two?

Sharon Sandle:

Absolutely. I mean, she really was an amazing person. In addition to everything we’ve already talked about. She and her husband were admitted to practice before the US Supreme Court in 1915, and that made her the first Texas woman who was admitted to practice before the US Supreme Court. So that’s also a pretty amazing accomplishment. She went on to actually serve as temporary judge of the corporation court for the City of Houston. So she went on to do other things and also ran unsuccessfully for Judge in 1920. But definitely a person to be reckoned with.

Rocky Dhir:

She would’ve made an amazing YouTuber. I bet you’d have had a lot of followers.

Sharon Sandle:

I think if she’d had YouTube, she probably could have recruited twice as many women voters. So it’s a shame

Rocky Dhir:

I think she would’ve beat Jake Paul. It’s armchair theory, but who knows? Tell us more about Hortens. It sounds like we could probably do an entire CLE session on Hortens.

Sharon Sandle:

One of the things I think is really interesting about her is that unlike the other two justices for the all women court who both went to actual Texas law schools, Hortens Ward, she actually studied law in her husband’s law office and through a correspondence course she had to do it kind of the difficult road to becoming a lawyer. So I think that’s interesting as well. And actually she started off before she was a lawyer as a court stenographer. She did it the hard way

Rocky Dhir:

And from what I understand she was married and then I think her husband died or they got divorced and so she was left.

Sharon Sandle:

They got divorced

Rocky Dhir:

In the early 20th century when this is happening,

Sharon Sandle:

That may have been why she was so interested in passing the married woman’s property law.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Yes. In 1906 she divorced her first husband and her divorce petition said that her husband was lazy of no account and worked only about half the time. And I just want to say that a lot of what we know about these remarkable women comes from some articles that some people associated with the Texas Supreme Court Historical Society have worked on. David Furlough and Lynn Lido and others have worked very hard to help gather information and much of the information that I have is called from the work of others. I want to appreciate them. So she was one of 11 girls in her family and her father made sure that all the 11 girls got an education.

Rocky Dhir:

Wow. We’re spending all of our time talking about Hortens Ward. I feel like we’re almost ignoring these other two and I’m sure they were incredible as well. I understand one of them was actually not in favor of women’s suffrage, is that

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

That’s correct. Ruth Brazel

Rocky Dhir:

Oh, okay.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

She went to the University of Texas as a special student in the law and she passed the Texas bar in 1912. She was a law and business woman. She worked for a state legislator, she managed a real estate company. She was a general manager of the American National Life Insurance Company in Galveston, Texas. And she was the acting post mistress of Bandera Texas at one point. These people are just fascinating, but unlike her fellow justices, she was an opponent of women’s suffrage and women’s participation in politics. So she’s any idea why she’s very involved in business but not in politics. But women are not monolithic. Women have their own independent thoughts and some women think differently than others. So

Rocky Dhir:

It seems a little disjointed. Somebody is active and as independent as she seemed to be. I guess it’s a juxtaposition I wasn’t prepared for, but I mean you’re right. It’s fascinating. People are contradictions sometimes.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Absolutely. And then of course there was Hattie Hindenberg and she went to the Dallas Law School, which is now what we know was of as SMU. And she was in the Texas bar in 1916 and she founded the Free Legal Aid Bureau there. She created a unit, the Dallas District Attorney’s office, the jailed fathers who failed to pay child support and she served as an assistant, Texas Attorney General and a special assistant US Attorney General and then an assistant da. So she had a more traditional legal career probably than some of the others. And she was very involved in the Texas Democratic Party. She was also in Texas’s first ever Jewish Supreme Court justice. Very interesting woman.

Rocky Dhir:

A lot of firsts.

Sharon Sandle:

Yes. I think that when you first hear about the All women Supreme Court and you hear about the circumstances that the men on the court had to recuse themselves, that the tendency is to think that, well, governor Neff just kind of rounded up whoever he could find, but these were very accomplished women who had worked very hard to get a legal career at all and had pretty varied experience. When you look at the variety of experience they, they brought a lot to the court

Rocky Dhir:

Hearing all these stories about these, I’m going to just say three women, because really they’re three lawyers. I mean they’re part of our legal community, if you will. So hearing about these three lawyers, I have to wonder, and I dunno if we have any data on this or if we have any stories, but what was it like for these? You said there was 30 women across Texas that were practicing law. What was it like for them practicing law in that era as women? I mean, were they treated just like any other lawyer or was it different for them?

Sharon Sandle:

I think one thing that’s important to remember is not only were there only 30 women who were lawyers, but the first of them had only been admitted to theBar in 1902. So there hadn’t been women lawyers in Texas for very long. And out of those 30, there were only 10 who would have met the requirements of having seven years experience to serve on the Texas Supreme Court. So it was very, very recent that women had been able to practice in Texas at all. There’s a funny quote from the very first day of hearings on this particular case, the Johnson V Dark case. Apparently the court clerk refused to participate and showed up in court with his fishing pole saying that he wasn’t going to stay and be a nursemaid to a bunch of women and he was going to go fishing instead. So I think that kind of answers your question of what was it like to practice as a woman in Texas at that time?

Rocky Dhir:

We didn’t talk much about the case itself and the underlying case, but when the hearing happened, what were the proceedings like? Was it the same as any other proceeding and the lawyers that were representing the parties just kind of treated like another day in court? Is it possible to kind of go back to that day and kind of talk about what it was like to be in the Courtroom? And I guess it wasn’t just one day, I guess it was a series of hearings from what I could gather, but that time period, what were those hearings like compared to what it was when it was the all male Supreme Court?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Well, we’ve done a couple of reenactments of the arguments of the state bar in the past has sponsored one of those and there’s been maybe both of those by the state bar. The arguments proceeded in a pretty normal or ordinary way with persuasive arguments made. And I thought it was interesting that all three judges, all three of the female justices wrote opinions on why they would’ve found the situation with the land and whether the title of the land and they each wrote their own opinions. So there wasn’t just one opinion of the court kind of reminded me a little bit about the Fifth Circuit where we feel free with our pens to write our own concurrences and dissents and that sort of thing. And so they each wrote and gave different reasons for what they were doing in the case, but I think the proceedings were pretty normal from the newspaper accounts that we have of the day.

Rocky Dhir:

It almost sounds like there were reveling in the moment of we get to do this, this may be the only time we get to do this.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

They had thought, they had actual ideas about the cases and they wanted to express them.

Rocky Dhir:

That’s a dawn on them, just how unique this experience was compared to the world that they lived in.

Sharon Sandle:

And I think that there was a real sense of responsibility and an awareness that they were doing something groundbreaking and that it was important to do a good job. Cortex Ward said afterwards in response to some of the newspaper reports that talked about the novelty of an all woman court, she said that the novelty was entirely lost in the great responsibility. So I think that they really felt like they wanted to not just sit on the court and hear the case, but to really do a good job with it and that people in future generations would be watching how they did, which is true because we’re still talking about it now.

Rocky Dhir:

We need to take another quick break. But when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about this moment in history and what it means today and what we can learn. So if you ladies will sit tight, guys, sit back, relax. We’re going to hear from one of our sponsors and we’ll be back in just a couple of moments. We’re going to talk more about the all woman Texas Supreme Court. Be right back. Alright, and we are back. And guys, this has been a fascinating discussion. It’s taking us back to 1925 in a very different world when suddenly three women were foisted onto the Texas Supreme Court and it sounds like they did an amazing job of what they were tasked with. So look, there’s a question that’s been kind of bugging me about this entire discussion, and honestly it was even before we started the podcast when I was kind of thinking about this, I want to talk about the import of this historic event, but it doesn’t get talked about a whole lot. I mean, we’re talking about it now, which is great, but I don’t remember learning it in my Texas history class in seventh grade. I don’t remember this ever really coming up outside of like now when I’m talking to you about it, why don’t we talk more about this event in your view.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

I’m not sure of the why, but really interesting moments in history sometimes get overlooked and I’m glad that you are devoting your time this afternoon to make sure we all get to hear about it. I didn’t know about it at all until someone contacted me. I think it was Warren Harris of the Bar and a prominent appellate attorney contacted me and asked me if I would be willing to portray Horse Sparks Ward in a reenactment.

Rocky Dhir:

You did an acting gig.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

I’m a frustrated actor and singer at heart, I think, but so occasionally I will take on these gigs and it was great honor to portray ton sparks, ward and attorneys, prominent attorneys argued David Keltner and it was a great, I mean tremendous honor. And the one really neat thing, her family had brought in some memorabilia from her time from her life and they got to see the gavel that she had used as the chief justice at the Texas Supreme Court.

Rocky Dhir:

Wow, okay.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

The gavel. And they also brought a silver loving cup that she had gotten from the Texas Suffr jets for her work on behalf of women’s right to Vote. I’ve got to hold the Loving Cup. That was really a neat treat.

Rocky Dhir:

Do you hold it up like a Wimbledon trophy? Yes.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Oh, no, I didn’t hold it up like that, but I held it gently and it was a real treat. We didn’t even talk about this and I hate to belabor the point about her, but she’s such an interesting person.

Rocky Dhir:

Please, let’s do it.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

She took on the KKK in Texas and that was a date. And then she went to Maine in fact to also campaign against KK K candidates. She was very much a woman who put herself in danger for the things that she believed were right and good in Texas and in America. It was a great joy to get to be her for a few minutes a couple of times and to hear great the interesting arguments in the case.

Rocky Dhir:

But how do you prepare for that? Yes, there’s a script and there’s what happened and you have to learn the lines, but did you have to do something to kind of get in the head of Horten’s Ward and portray her in a certain way or did you put Judge Elrod as Horten Ward? I mean, what was this like?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Well, she’s not the only justice I’ve ever portrayed, but

Rocky Dhir:

Oh, now the truth’s coming out. We’re learning all this now. Okay,

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

No, you just study about the case and you figure what would she have been concerned about? And we know that she was very concerned about property rights and she would want to know who had the title and how had the land been purchased and what was the insurance contract at issue. She was a smart business lawyer and I tried to put myself in that position and ask questions that would’ve been appropriate.

Sharon Sandle:

And today we’re really fortunate in Texas that we have some really great women judges in Texas. And so when we needed judges to reenact this historic case, we had plenty of great women judges like Judge Elrod to help us do it. And Judge Elrod, do you remember who else was on that panel with you portraying the other justices?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

I think that Justice Lehrman might’ve been there and maybe Justice Guzman,

Sharon Sandle:

I recall Justice Guzman participating as well. And so

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

What a treat to be with them. They’re role models, so

Sharon Sandle:

Right. It took decades for us to get there. But we do have women on the Texas Supreme Court today and some really great women who are doing that.

Rocky Dhir:

The irony is you probably had more judges to choose from to play those justices than Governor Neff did when he was choosing who the actual justices would be. He had to pick from 30 women. And you had far, far more than that.

Sharon Sandle:

We were lucky in that respect. Absolutely.

Rocky Dhir:

What does this tell us moving forward? There’s always two schools of thought on issues. This I’ve heard both of them. One is that it doesn’t matter who the judge is, the judge’s gender doesn’t make any difference to the outcome or to how you rule. And the other one is that men and women approach it differently. They think differently. They approach the law differently historically, and especially when you go back to situations like these in 1925. Has history given us any insights on that dichotomy?

Sharon Sandle:

One of the things that strikes me about this case is that we talked already about how difficult it was to find men who were practicing law in Texas who were not members of Woodman of the world. And it strikes me that if Governor Neff had really tried hard, there might’ve been two or three men out there who could have sat on the court. But I think that one of the issues that he may have had in mind is that this was such an influential organization that if you were looking for someone who was not only not a member but was not really influenced by this organization, the best way to do that would be to find women who could take on that role. So that might’ve been part of the impetus. And then as you mentioned Rocky, it was certainly at a time where women’s issues and the issue, especially of women becoming lawyers and getting the right to vote was important. And so it was something of a statement in that respect as well.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

I think that, I remember whenever Justice O’Connor was asked about being a female on her court as the first, she said that she thought that a wise old woman could make this code of decisions as the wise old men on the court. And she wasn’t so much trying to say that women would make different decisions, which I think was about your question. I think that obviously it was important for Portent and others that women being included in the law about property rights and things in particular and from her own experience, but I don’t think that there’s anything in the scholarship that they would make different decisions about the title to the property than then the men at the time. So in this kind of case, I think that it’s more that having a seat at the table and making sure the law includes you, that there’s nothing that says that the women did something entirely different or creative or something compared to the men in the case.

And I think we’ve had such a privilege on my court that we’ve had numerous female judges, including the chief judges of my Carolyn King, the first ever woman Chief Judge, Edith Holland Jones and Priscilla Richmond. Obviously very different women, diverse interests, diverse personalities, just wonderful people, all tough firm jurist. And it’s a great privilege and honor to be able to follow them and to follow Chief Judge Carl Stewart as well. I don’t know about these ideas that it’s all really different. I just think it’s important that people have a seat at the table. Whenever I was a young lawyer and I was going to take depositions, people used to sometimes say to me, think that I was the court reporter and court reporter was probably the most well-paid person in the room. And so maybe that was a good thing to be thought about. But I was not the court reporter.

And when I recall going to another deposition and somebody saying they knew I was a lawyer, but they said, well, when are the troops arriving? They didn’t think that I would be able to be the one taking the deposition. And I said, well, the troops are here, let’s go. And then on another occasion, somebody asking the judge I clerked for, he said, can your little lady go make us some copies of this jury charge? And the judge, I clerked for Judge Slake, who is a tremendous role model and wonderful person. He said, she’s not my little lady. You’ll address her as Ms. Elrod and you can make your own copies for 10 cents in the library. So we all have these kind of stories if you’ve practiced law a long time, and my stories are so much more benign than the women who practiced law even in the seventies or early eighties and that thing. And so we can only imagine what it was like to have the clerk of the court say he was going to go fishing rather than participate in the All woman Supreme Court.

Sharon Sandle:

And I think it’s important to remember that in spite of this really groundbreaking court in the twenties, it took all the way until the 1980s for another woman to be appointed to the Texas Supreme Court. And so it’s not as though change didn’t still happen pretty slowly.

Rocky Dhir:

One final thought that maybe each of you could leave us with, and this is kind of an open question, you can take it and run with it as you will, but Gerald Rod, you were talking about women having a place at the table and we’ve talked about the changing face of the bench and how there’s been all these firsts. Do you think we’ve rounded the corner? Are we at that point now where people aren’t thinking about whether it’s a male or female judge, that’s the judge and we’re here to just get on with the business of justice. Have we reached that point yet? Or is there still more steps until we get there?

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Well, I think that the world isn’t a perfect place, but I think we’re in a really good place. And it’s because of role models. It’s because of people like Ruby Ock who Sharon was alluding to who became a first appointed justice in the modern era in 1982. I saw her swear in just yesterday afternoon. She put on the robe to help robe and swear in Sophia Ague to the business court yesterday afternoon. And nobody was talking about Sophia Aga the fact that she was a woman or that that was unusual because we had a bunch of other women judges who were part of the ceremony that Tracy Christopher helped preside over the program. I don’t want to say life is perfect and I’m not naive, but I do think we are in a really good place and it’s because of the sacrifice and hard work of all those folks.

Sharon Sandle:

I agree. And your question was, have we turned to the corner? And so I would say yes, we’ve certainly turned the corner. And although that doesn’t mean that we’ve crossed the finish line, so to speak, there really are so many prominent women who are judges, who are justices, who are attorneys, who are just outstanding role models and mentors for the young people who are in law school today. And I don’t mean just role models for the young women who are in law school, but I think that all of the young lawyers in Texas can look up to these women and learn from them. So yes, I think we’ve really turned the corner and I hope we keep going in that same direction and I’m certainly encouraged

Rocky Dhir:

What a great way to bring us across the finish line, Sharon. Well, listen, judge Elrod, Sharon Sandle, it’s been tremendous having you both here. Thank you for sharing your insights. Thank you for joining us today and for telling us about this amazing moment in Texas history. Thank you both.

Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod:

Thank you.

It was a pleasure to be with you.

Rocky Dhir:

The same here. And of course, I want to thank you for tuning in. I want to encourage you, stay safe, be well. If you like what you heard today, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, remember, life’s a journey, folks. I’m Rocky Dhir signing offer for now.