Stress, Burnout, and the Legal Profession: It’s OK To Talk About It

Episode Notes

Transcript

Tony Sipp:

Hi, and welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. My name is Tony Sipp and I’m here with,

Jill Francisco:

Yes, Jill is back. Hello. Welcome back, Jill. Thank you. Nice to have you. Glad to be back.

Tony Sipp:

Today we’re going to be talking about legal burnout, and we’re going to be talking with the legal burnouts who have a podcast on their titled The Legal Burnouts. I’m here with a former nonprofit attorney, Kate Bridal and a former paralegal, Josey Hoff, and they came up with this incredible idea to talk about stuff that we and the legal community have to deal with all the time burnout, and it’s a real issue. It’s something that happens all the time. And Josey. Kate, welcome.

Josey Hoff:

Thank you for having us.

Tony Sipp:

Kate or Josey, whoever wants to go first. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself so the audience knows a little bit more about you?

Josey Hoff:

If I must. So as Tony said, I’m a paralegal. I was a paralegal for seven years before switching into a different sector of the legal field due to burnout. I worked from big law to boutique firms as well as nonprofit work and loved it. But burnout as we all do,

Tony Sipp:

And here we are. Here we, here we are, Kate,

Kate Bridal:

And here we are. My story is very long and winding, so I’ll give the short version, which is I started out going to drama school right after high school and then wound up doing undergrad in private behavior and ecology and worked with chimpanzees who spoke sign language. And then in there I decided to go to law school because I wanted to be an FBI agent. So when I went to law school, I did not want to be a lawyer that went out the window for multiple reasons, including the fact that I was like, I don’t think my heart’s really on the prosecutorial side of things. And so then I was like, uhoh, now I have to be a lawyer and wound up doing nonprofit work, practicing homelessness prevention. So it was like housing and disability rights work in Los Angeles during Covid for two years.

I burned out I think after about six months, and it was just emotionally really taxing and it was really rewarding work. But unlike Josey, I was not ever passionate about the law or being an attorney, so I don’t think that helped. I was passionate about my clients and about helping them, but I didn’t have that love of the work to also keep me in it. So I burned out very, very hard and then I switched over into marketing and legal tech, which is how I met Josey, and we started chatting about this issue that we both had from the attorney perspective and the paralegal perspective, and then somebody was like, you should start a podcast. And I took that very seriously and then I made her do it with me, and now I’m still figuring out what I want to be when I grow up,

Tony Sipp:

Grow up,

Kate Bridal:

I’m leaning back toward the acting thing. I’m kind of coming full circle. So you never know.

Tony Sipp:

No, you are actually, I mean, if anybody’s ever seen, if you’re on LinkedIn, fine, Kate, she does these skits and scenarios that are so hilarious, so go check her

Kate Bridal:

Out. You’ll find more of them on TikTok and Instagram than on LinkedIn. I censor.

Tony Sipp:

Didn’t even know that. I didn’t even know that. Okay.

Kate Bridal:

It’s a little spicier on the others sometimes.

Tony Sipp:

So since we’re talking about the topic and you guys came up with the topic, what were the signs that made you realize that maybe I’m burning out Josey?

Josey Hoff:

I mean, it was a slow kind of gradual process for me, so it started when I was working in South Africa doing refugee law and just the kind of a emotional tax.

Tony Sipp:

It’s just so awesome that you were doing that. First of all, sorry, you guys can’t see me. My eyes just lit up. I’m like, wait,

Josey Hoff:

Yeah, I just saw Tony’s face. Like what? Yeah, I did. I, I was doing an internship for about four months in South Africa at a refugee law clinic and I loved it, loved the work. I’ve always been a huge kind of international law geek. The emotional burnout kind of started there. The cases are incredibly difficult. You’re dealing with a lot of situations where you should be able to help but you can’t for multiple reasons and roadblocks within the law and it does become pretty taxing. I had a lot of nightmares and things when I got back from there and all the stories that I had held or all the stories I had heard and dealt with. So that kind of was the beginning point of it. And then I moved into big law, and again, I was working on more challenging cases. I did a lot of really interesting work, but I also was working on abortion ban cases and things of that sort in the legal field.

And so again, very emotionally taxing and it was kind of those things I decided to move into something I felt like would be a little less emotionally taxing, moved to another firm and it was the hours. Yeah, exactly. It was the hours that then got me and the hours had kind of been building over the years, and that can get to you, but between Covid, which was right in the middle of it at that point, and then the hours I was working, having to be in an office and different things like that, it was just burnout. It was so exhausting that I had 80 hours on my weekly time sheet at times, and those types of hours just aren’t sustainable, at least not for me

Tony Sipp:

Unless you’re billable.

Josey Hoff:

It helped for a bit. I was able to bill for a bit and I could see that, but eventually it was billable hours weren’t as attractive when you’re falling asleep at your test

And the stress of you’re handling cases, if I make an error because I’m so tired, that could, I mean, any number of things could happen there. It’s not in law. It’s astronomical sometimes the damage that can be done with those things. So that was where that kind of set in, and I just noticed it by, I was starting to lose kind of my drive for a little bit. I started to feel like I would get a project or a case in front of me and it was hard to open it because I knew as soon as I got into it, it was just going to be never ending and my life was going to kind of be consumed by it and things of that sort. And so it was falling asleep in my desk. It was feeling more reactive, feeling more sensitive, not my family.

We’re like, we don’t know who you are right now because one, we don’t see you and when we do, you’re not here mentally. You’re constantly stressed looking at your work and email and all of those things. And so I started to have a lot of physical symptoms. I was having a lot of just different pain, things like that, that were happening. I couldn’t sleep and whatnot. I was so stressed. So those were some of my signs at least, and that was kind of when I knew I needed to reevaluate what I was doing at that point.

Jill Francisco:

Quick follow up on that. What was the time period, it’s interesting to me for some of our listeners, maybe you kind of described that timeline about how it started and then progressed, obviously not the way we’d like it to progress. So what was the time period that all that kind of started until you’re like, okay, and really had a full recognizing what was going on?

Josey Hoff:

It started, it was about in the span of about four to five years that I was burning out. It wasn’t until the very, it honestly didn’t hit me at burnout until after I had stopped my last position that was kind of causing that. And it took a while for me to really reconcile what was happening, figure out what, I didn’t have a label for it. I had never heard of anyone talk about what it looked like or anything of that sort. So I just knew I couldn’t keep up. And if you don’t have a name for burnout, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, it can become very personal. And so for four years feeling like the thing that you love is kind of slipping from you because you can’t keep up with it is very challenging to navigate at that point, especially over the so many years of having that

Kate Bridal:

The self-blame is very really tough and really real. And that’s part of why it’s so important, I think for more people to learn about this is just you are not alone if you’re going through this, especially if you’re in the legal industry, I guarantee you pretty much everybody around you is experiencing or has experienced it at some point, and especially for high achievers, perfectionists, whatever, it’s like those of us who are recovering from those things, it’s very easy to immediately point the finger back at yourself and be like, oh, you can’t hack it, it’s you.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, that was one of the biggest things I’m struggling with now. I switched jobs and I’m one of those overachievers, everybody on the Zoom and podcast, I know you guys are all overachievers and I mean that’s what we do. We pride ourself on that because we’re so good at what we do that once we make that one mistake, that one thing because we’re too tired or didn’t get enough rest the night before, you feel less than, right? Yeah. It’s really, it’s like this does not represent me. So it’s just really puts you in a situation where I got to get back to myself and how do I do that?

Kate Bridal:

Yeah, and that’s the hard part is the self-work. It’s like is there is ownership that you have to have over it too? Yes, for a lot of people, for me, thankfully it, I was never wanted to be a lawyer, so I was like, I can not be a lawyer any day. I don’t care, but this is a

Tony Sipp:

Cornell’s graduate lawyer.

Kate Bridal:

I was like, I don’t care. You don’t need to blame yourself for feeling burned out. But there is definitely, and I think we’ve talked about this a lot, that it’s probably one of the contributing factors to why the burnout rates are so high in the law is there is a certain personality type that goes to law school or it becomes a paralegal or pursues a legal career of any kind. It is extremely challenging and very demanding, and so it is going to naturally attract a lot of high achieving perfectionists. And those people also tend to not have good boundaries in place. And to think that that high achieving I can work all night thing is their superpower and actually that and they pride themselves on it. I always did. I was like, oh yeah, put me in a situation where they’re like, look to your left, look to your right.

One of you isn’t going to make it. I’m going to be like, yeah, baby, I’m going to be the one that makes it. That used to be really motivating for me, and I am not there anymore, thank God. I mean, I still have the impulse, but I’ve worked on it a lot and it’s just like you learn that that actually is what is going to drive you into the ground is everything that you’ve prided yourself on, your availability, your ability to do things well, your ability to be efficient, your ability to work harder than everybody else. So just go the extra mile. All that is what is going to break you eventually

Josey Hoff:

If you don’t have good boundaries.

Kate Bridal:

Right? Yeah. And that’s okay. If you know how to balance it and you know how to turn it off to a degree, you know how to stop when your body and your brain is starting to tell you that you need to back off, that’s great. But most of us, and most of us also assume that we’re not going to break, which is absolutely not true.

Tony Sipp:

Well, this seems like, speaking of breaking a break, yeah, it’s like a good time for a break. We’ll take a quick commercial break and we’ll be right back. Welcome back to the Paralegal Voice podcast. We’re here with Kate and Josey and Jill, of course, our co-host. We were just talking about burnout in the legal field and for all of those that are working the legal fill, which most of you are, we were just talking about the signs and symptoms and prevention and trying to address that in being aware, self-aware of what’s going on and when that happens.

Jill Francisco:

And I wanted to add right at the end when Kate was talking about it, we’re the top of the game where we take pride in that kind of stuff. I just wanted to add, it’s hard I think because especially with the paralegal role, it’s like once you do that, say in the beginning of your career, because you just think, why wouldn’t I work over? Why wouldn’t I try to do the best? You kind of get all that, then it becomes expected and it’s like, okay, well, I work through lunch a couple of times, but I don’t want to work through lunch every day or I worked over, but I don’t want to do every day. I filed that at midnight, but I don’t want to do that every night. That type of thing. And like you said, both career paths have those same characteristics, same personality type thing, and so it’s really hard.

I mean for attorneys too, obviously it is both positions to get out of it. It’s like you’re in it and to get out of it, even if you’re not necessarily upset about it or want to, you’re to that burnout phase. It’s still stuff that you should be aware of and think, I don’t need to do that. One of the popular, I don’t know if you guys ever heard of Linda McGrath cruise, she runs that perfectly paralegal page on Facebook. We have a little cruise. You need to get in on that. She goes on a legit cruise every year. That’s really

Really cool. Oh yeah, we have CLE. I’m giving a little plug for it here. We have CLE. Hi, Linda. Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Linda. But the thing is that I always remember her saying she’ll post every now and then She’ll say, it’s fine to say no, I’m going to go to lunch. And then your coworkers shouldn’t think bad of you because you’re taking a freaking lunch. I mean, that’s another thing that plays into it. Then it’s like, oh, you’re less because you’re not working through lunch. And everybody else is like, oh my gosh, I’m so busy. I can’t take two minutes rest. I mean, it just gets wild up in there. And I think it started with what you were saying and it just gets into a whirlwind and you’re just caught up in there. So I’m happy to hear from you two girls, like you said, how to recognize it, how to start getting out of it, and then obviously what to do and even prevent it go that far. So I’ll let you guys chime back in on that.

Kate Bridal:

That’s so vital, Jill. I think that that is such a great point is if there’s one thing that I wish that, again, part of why we started this project is we want law students to know, we want people just high school students who are thinking about a legal career to know that it is so vital to set up those boundaries first, and it is okay to set up those boundaries right away because it’s much easier to walk boundaries back once you know that they won’t be taken advantage of than it is to put them up. Because then people are exactly what you said, Jill. People are like, well, what the heck? You’ve always done this before, so why now? Yeah,

Tony Sipp:

No, that’s true. It’s true. Yeah, no is a complete sentence. Say,

Josey Hoff:

I love that. I’m going to write that down

Kate Bridal:

Now if only we can get the rest of the legal profession to respect it. When people try and say no, that is the other factor that gets a little tricky.

Tony Sipp:

You got to fight in the right place, in the right firm. But Josey, you’re telling us, I mean, during the break, there’s situations even after leaving the law firm life that you still run into that situation. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Josey Hoff:

I don’t want it to be a bashing on law firms or bashing on legal where we’re just like, it’s only in legal that I can burn out, and it’s because legal is toxic and it’s like

Kate Bridal:

I will bash on legal. Legal. It is

Josey Hoff:

Toxic. I mean, maybe it’s toxic in some ways, but many fields are. And so for me, I got out of traditional legal and went into some different roles, and I think when I became aware of the burnout, it was like, okay, I’ve got, and then going through this podcast that we started with the legal burnouts, I’m hearing about burnout all the time. I know all about it. I know the signs, and yet in my personal life, I’m still losing track of my boundaries. I get that one compliment from my manager that’s like, wow, you work harder than anyone. I’m like, yep, I’m going to run with that. I’m going to double it. I’m going to go. I’m going to take you, take it all the way. Yeah. I was like, let me show you

Kate Bridal:

The tiniest crumb of validation is all we need. And off we go. You did a great job.

Josey Hoff:

It’s personal too. It’s those overachievers where for an overachiever, it can be, if you tell me I work hard, that’s all the validation I want because I’m going to keep going with that. And that happens. It continues to happen I think throughout your career if you are someone that has those tendencies. So for me, I’m hearing all of this, I know what it is, and yet all of a sudden I’m at an even more extreme point of burnout, and I didn’t even realize that I had left those boundaries behind me didn’t even realize that I was getting to that point before I was at it. So is not exclusive to an industry, and it’s also not just an industry that can burn you out or job. It can be that you are burning yourself out. And I think it’s almost harder to recognize when you’re burning yourself out because you aren’t just seeing it happen from someone else and you have someone to put it on. Sometimes you can be so oblivious to your own tendencies that can get you there. And so for me, I was in some ways oblivious to that because I knew that about myself. I was like, well, I’m not in this anymore, so I can’t possibly burn out. And that’s not true.

Kate Bridal:

When the stakes feel lower, it’s really easy to be like, oh, well, I can do this for 60 hours a week. You’re like, I can edit a podcast for 80 hours a week. That’s fun. And no one’s going to be homeless if I don’t do it right. But that’s not If I make a mistake.

The only thing the stakes are, as Josey said, it’s impossible to go anywhere and legal and do anything that the stakes aren’t really high for somebody. And that is, I think, a big part of it that is going to make you stressed all the time no matter what job you’re doing. But it’s not just that thinking that jumping to something else, that level of stakes is going to fix your burnout magically. Like, nah, that’s unfortunately not true.

Josey Hoff:

I think that how you kind of approach burnout if you are able to self-reflect, and I think being able to be honest with yourself of like, I am going through a period where I’m going to be on the grind and it’s going to be harder, and I may feel burnt out afterwards, but sometimes that is what a person has to do. And I think that it is important that as we kind of talk about burnout prevention, we also recognize that there are people in situations that can’t always have the right boundaries all the time. And so it’s how can you navigate that and how can you have an end goal to when and will this end and when can I get some rest? You have to have that if you’re going to go through a period like that. In some cases, demand that we do trial prep.

Jill Francisco:

I was just going to say perfect example of that is working the case and then trial. I was at a trial back in the fall and I literally worked, I think it was 107 hours in a week.

Kate Bridal:

Good Lord.

Jill Francisco:

And that was just because of how the attorney worked and what we had to do, and it was fine. I didn’t care. It was almost like that’s what you kind of work for. But then I’m not doing that every week, like you said, you just reel that right back in when that’s over and get back into your normal thing, get some rest and then go on as usual.

Kate Bridal:

Right, right. Burnout, it’s the result of sustained and prolonged stress. So it’s not about eliminating stress, not a thing

Jill Francisco:

That’s make believe.

Kate Bridal:

Yeah. And for people who love the law, you can be stressed and burn out and still love what you do. That is also a fact that people sometimes forget. If you love the law and you want to stay in it, you’re going to be stressed. You’re going to be stressed a lot and you’re going to be very stressed a lot unless you’re a psychopath, which is why a lot of which there is a high proportion of in the legal industry, and they do very well. You have to figure ways that you can at least break that up and that you can disconnect, which is what my big problem was, was I was just never able to turn it off. I was constantly worried about my clients and everything would remind me of it. It would rain. And I was like, oh, I love the rain.

And then two seconds later I was like, oh, I hope my client got her landlord to fix that hole in her roof. Oh, I hope that other client’s roof doesn’t cave in. Oh, I hope my one client who’s on the street finds a shelter tonight. I couldn’t even sit there and just be like, yay, rain, just nothing. And that was my big sign was it was just 24 7. I was just constantly into this state of stress and thinking about it even when I wasn’t going to be helping anybody. I mean, what am I going to do about any of this at midnight? Their landlord’s not picking up the phone, but didn’t matter to my brain,

Jill Francisco:

But it was still worrying you to death.

Kate Bridal:

Yes. But anyway, so that is what is, it’s about finding those breaks. Like Jill, Jill said,

Tony Sipp:

It’s a great time for another break and we’ll come back and we’ll talk about prevention. So stay tuned. We’ll be right back.

Jill Francisco:

Welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. I’m Jill Francisco with my co-host, Tony Sipp, and we have been talking, having some great conversation and hopefully sharing some wonderful information with Kate and Josey about legal burnout. They are the professionals, I guess I don’t know if that’s an insult compliment of legal burnout.

Kate Bridal:

You’re qualified.

Josey Hoff:

Just

Kate Bridal:

Tell everyone I don’t have

Josey Hoff:

Boundaries with my work, please.

Kate Bridal:

So Josey sadly is no longer my co-host on the legal burnout, but she is here because she, we’ve been talking about doing this for a while and she, she’s paralegal and I thought she has to be

Jill Francisco:

Here. That’s nothing more perfect.

Kate Bridal:

She was an amazing co-host for the first two seasons, but my new co-host, rhe Batchelder is an anti burnout coach and professional coach and corporate speaker.

Jill Francisco:

We’re going to talk about prevention. We’re going to have the professionals tell us here in just a minute. But anyway, I know that some of our listeners, I mean they’re familiar with my background and like I said, I’ve been a paralegal for 27 years basically with the same firm always doing defense work. And the thing is that yes, and I’ve seen clerks, they become associates and they almost become partner and they leave or they are partner for a little bit and then they leave. Of course, our professional staff, legal secretaries, it’s a revolving door. But I’ll say this, I have had a lot of attorneys, not so much the staff, but attorneys will say, Jill, how do you keep so passionate, so energetic, so energized about your job and what you’re doing day in and day out? I mean, first of all, I’m just wild and I just drink coffee.

I don’t drink coffee. It’s a favor to everyone. I’m just wound up all the time. I mean, that’s kind of like my bare minimum there. But the thing that I have said and I try to tell people is what really, really helped me is over the years getting involved in the professional associations and the why I say that it kind of keeps you interested because if you’re passionate about your profession, you want it to continue and thrive in the future. I mean, that’s one thing that I got from my mom in a total different profession, but she’s like, pick something that you love to go to every day because you’re going to spend so much time. And so obviously I love being a paralegal. I want it to thrive. I want it to grow. And I think, okay, the professional associations where you’re learning and you’re sharing and you’re collaborating and you’re learning new things, you’re keeping advised on what’s new and legislation.

I mean, there’s so many things that different professional associations will help you get involved with. It really helped me, and I know professional associations are not for everyone. And I even went not just a member, but then I went through, I was founder of our state organization and then I went and started with Nala and went all the way up to become president. And I mean, I absolutely loved it, but the thing that I loved about it was the platform to help paralegals, to help the profession, to share ideas, to connect people. And I just feel like that’s what kind of keeps you energized. And now the show, I’m not saying Tony was burnt out, but asking him to be a host was something different. He still could be doing the same job, but now he’s got this and he looks forward to it and he looks at different topics and he’s looking for different things for different reasons he wants to share and he is excited about it.

I just feel like that that’s helped me a lot because 27 years doing anything the same is a lot. And I do still love it. And I just wanted to also just one little thing where you were talking about, I think it was Kate, when you were talking about you hear something, you’re like, okay, if somebody tells you you’re doing good, and Josey said, that’s all you got to say no more. I’m going to do triple that. And I was going to say the thing is, and then I said it was expected, it becomes expected from your manager, your peers, your whatever. But I’m going to say that one thing where I’ve been for 27 years, that’s kind of like I’m using that to my advantage now. My attorneys and things that I’m been in contact with, they know that I do a good job. And so now it’s like, I’ll be glad to help you, but don’t think I’m going to stay up all night and do it or don’t think I’m going to because I’ve been there. It’s like, don’t treat me. I have experience and I think about a new associate that has to sleep in their office and write all the motions and do everything. And at some point, I think the goal is to not have to do that and still make

Kate Bridal:

Great that, right? That should not be the culture somehow. That’s one of the problems is that expect, right? And sometimes obviously like we’ve said, it is necessary, but

Jill Francisco:

Some you never get out of there. But it’s almost like paying your dues type thing. And I’m not saying everybody has to do it, but I’m just saying, I mean, if you’re a paralegal out there and you know what you’re doing, you’re confident that you are valuable, don’t discount that. And one way you can do is say, Hey, I deserve to set my boundaries. I have to work through lunch every day to make everybody think I’m great or doing the most work. You deserve to do that for yourself at some point. So anyway, that’s my little coping mechanism for getting burnout because honestly, I’m not, I mean, I love my job. I love exactly where I am. I have no desire to go anywhere else super happy. I really think that’s one of the things because you also get into volunteerism and so much things also come from professional associations.

Josey Hoff:

Can I be Jill when I grow up? Exactly,

Kate Bridal:

No, and community is a very important anti burnout tool. So having a community of professionals, and of course as I’m listening to you, I’m like, if I was doing all of that, it would be burning me out more. Thyself is, I think the big thing is if that is what motivates you, if that is what gets you excited and makes you feel better when you go back to work the next day, great. But you might have to do some trial and error and figure out what’s exciting you and what’s draining you. And sometimes initially something is very exciting and so then you lean into it way too hard. For example, a podcast about burnout that you decided to start and then you burn yourself out doing that because you were so excited. You’re like, well, I am having fun, so I’m going to do it until 2:00 AM. And then you’re like, but now I’m not having fun anymore and now I’m very tired, careful with your own enthusiasm,

Jill Francisco:

Right? It can get out of control, but point well taken. There’s definitely a time that I had to, even my husband, he actually was always supportive always all the time, but at one point was like, Jill, you’ve got to start saying no because I think he saw it before I did that I was trying to do too much. Because you know how the old adage is when you do everything and people like what you do, you say, I’ll help and you really help and all this stuff. They just want you to do more. People just want you to do more because you’re reliable and you’re doing a great job. And my husband was just like, come on, because I probably was even more crazy than I am at home normally, and they couldn’t take it anymore. So you got to get that no button. And like you said, you got to recognize it.

Josey Hoff:

Yeah, I think it’s seasons too. We all have personal lives, we all have other things going on. If your work is motivating you and you’re in a season in your personal life where you can give so much focus to that, run with it, amazing, do all the things. If it’s still working for you, sometimes you go through a period in your own for reasons unrelated to work where you can’t balance all that. So there’s so many avenues this can come from. It’s really just staying present. I know it’s a roller coaster all the

Jill Francisco:

Time. I tell people that all the time. I’m like, Hey, just do as much that’s comfortable for you. You may not be able to serve on five committees right now, but if you just want to maybe try to make one event that’d be great, or do whatever’s right for you, but just do something.

Kate Bridal:

I would do less than as comfortable because most of us are comfortable at a way too high level that’s going to burn us out. And that is something that I had to learn about myself is the way to not burn myself out is to do less than I want to do all the time.

Jill Francisco:

So before you’re not doing your maximum, you’re doing just below that, so then you’re not getting to that. That’s a good advice,

Kate Bridal:

And that’s what I did when I started making content was I was like, what I wanted to do was put out content five days a week. What TikTok and Instagram tells you to do is do it multiple times a day. What I do is twice a week, and I told myself at the start, that’s what you’re doing. You’re posting on Tuesdays and Fridays and that is it. And sometimes I have violated it. I actually just posted today, but it was a super quick thing because I knew that even though I’m having fun with this right now, I am going to overburden myself if I let myself do as much as I want to. So let’s start with twice a week and then if that’s less and then you feel like you have the capacity still, then go and do more. But that would be my advice is start smaller than you think you need to do and then scale it up from there if you’re going.

Jill Francisco:

So that’s definitely a good prevention tactic for the paralegals out there to whatever you’re taking on to just kind of take it down a notch.

Tony Sipp:

If you could let people know your handles so that they can get in contact with you if they hear this podcast. But we’ll start with Kate, how can anybody reach you post podcast?

Kate Bridal:

Sure. So we are the legal burnouts. We are on Instagram, we are on TikTok. We are on a website called the legal burnouts.com. I do have a new co-host now because Josey is often her thing. We encourage that because we are anti burnout. Her name is R Batchelder. She’s awesome. As I mentioned, she’s an anti burnout coach and corporate speaker consultant, former big law attorney. We are now trying to expand actually beyond the legal industry. As we mentioned, you can burnout anywhere, so we will actually be having more conversations about burnout outside of the legal industry as well. If you want to find me individually and see my silly sketches that I make online where I pretend to be married to Hannibal Lecter, I am bridal party of five on Instagram and TikTok.

Jill Francisco:

I am so glad I got in contact with Kate. This is going to be fun.

Josey Hoff:

You can find me on LinkedIn and also on Instagram. I still try to help as much as I can. So if you reach out nine out 10 times, I will answer. I will share my handle in the bio of this episode or something. I don’t have it on hand.

Kate Bridal:

I believe it is something to the tune of JH the legal burnout.

Josey Hoff:

Oh, that’s Instagram. Sure. Yeah, there you go.

Tony Sipp:

Thank you both for joining us today, and I hope everyone enjoyed and was able to gather some really valuable information from this because listening to them helped me. So hopefully this episode helped you.

Kate Bridal:

Thank you so much.

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