Overcoming Subconscious Bias, How We Can Do Better

Episode Notes

Transcript

[Music]

Jill Francisco: Welcome back to the Paralegal Voice on the Legal Talk Network, I’m Jill Francisco and I’m here with my co-host Tony Sipp and we are super-duper excited to have an awesome guest with us today where we’re going to learn some things from him and we’re going to have hopefully some great conversations about some very important topics. So I’m going to let co-host Tony, take it away.

Tony Sipp: Thank you Jill, and hello folks. Welcome back. It’s my pleasure to introduce our esteemed guest, Al De La Cruz. With an illustrious career spanning over 25 years Al is a renowned legal expert in the field of employment law. As the leader of the employment law team from Manning & Kass, he provides a valuable council in a diverse range of clients and both the private and public sectors. Al’s impressive track record has earned him numerous accolades and recognitions. Fortune Magazine has identified him as a top-rated lawyer in labor and employment law while San Diego Magazine has honored him as one of the top lawyers in San Diego. In 2014, he was distinguished as one of the top 10 employment lawyers in San Diego. His outstanding legal proudness has also been recognized by his peers as he has been named a San Diego Super Lawyer from 2013 to 2017. Without further ado, please welcome Mr. Al De La Cruz.

Al De La Cruz: Hello, how are you? Good to see you both, great to talk with you and looking forward to today’s session.

Jill Francisco: Thank you so much. And let’s just already get it out there that you have like the super coolest name. Like, let’s just say that, love it. I mean, I feel like you’re on a tropical island somewhere, I don’t know what you’re doing, but it sounds super fun in addition to all your wonderful credentials and experience, top-notch name.

Al De La Cruz: Thank you very much greatly. Appreciate it.

Jill Francisco: You’re welcome, you’re welcome. And I didn’t know the employment law background. I’ve been a paralegal for 27 years, but here in the past, oh, I don’t know. Three, four years, maybe probably since COVID, I started doing some employment law. So I’m always excited to learn something when I hear somebody has experience in the employment law because it’s not where all my experience lies so, awesome.

Al De La Cruz: Good great. Well, looking forward to the discussion, it’s a great topic and I’m happy to discuss what is fairly controversial at times and also a lot of fun when you start looking at some of the details behind the science.

Jill Francisco: Sure, very true. All right. Well Tony is going to lead us off.

Tony Sipp: Sure, sure. So we’re going to jump in. Today’s topic is going to be about implicit bias and Al is an expert. I’ve heard him speak on this topic and he’s excellent. So Al what is implicit bias and how does it differ from explicit bias?

Al De La Cruz: A great question. What we find with implicit bias is it has a number of different names and depending upon really how you’re approaching it and what label you give to it, it affects kind of the thinking behind it. So it’s been referred to as unconscious bias, implicit bias. It has a number of different references to subconscious bias. At the end of the day, it’s just how we deal with interacting with each other and how we do it in a fashion that is more intuitive rather than contemplative. It’s how we address things on a very quick basis to evaluate circumstances, will lighten flight, whether it’s figure out what to do in our life. It’s a way of humanistically try to quickly deal with issues that come before us.

Jill Francisco: I like how —  we like we like to lay this topic out because I don’t care how many times that you hear it. I think you always learn something different whether it’s from the speaker or you know, you have a different level of because you’ve heard it before and you know, you’re working your way through it and improving on different things and then you hear something that clicks with you and, you know, it kind of makes things clear. And I like that we’re getting this on the podcast today which as you know, our audiences paralegals and other legal professionals, because I think that it’s important that, you know, we tie in, I mean, we’re in the Law Office, we’re in different settings, but you know, paralegals are put in the situation a lot of times and it really helps that you’re given some pointers and, you know, we’re going to talk about today, you know how to handle and, you know, even recognize, you know, whatever you can do from any level to, you know, improve and just be, you know, conscious like you said of this and not, you know, deal with it in a negative or you know, what do they —  you don’t even mean to but in a not great manner.

Al De La Cruz: Exactly. There’s so much involve in this topic and one of the things that I find, whenever I talk on this issue, is the highlight or the emphasis of people have with regard to the idea of bias. This historically, we viewed biases in completely negative connotation when really what we’re talking about differentiation.

(00:05:08)

Unfortunately, historically, we’ve had some very bad examples, bad behavior that stems from that. As a result, the biased portion of it loses its academic meaning and turns into more of a discrimination type of aspect which we of course, want to always mitigate and avoid.

Jill Francisco: That’s a good way to describe that.

Tony Sipp: That’s a great point. What are some of the common types of implicit bias and like, how do they tend to manifest themselves in different settings? We are in the legal field but implicit bias applies to every field. Anything that you’ve noticed or seen that comes up when, you know, in your brackets?

Al De La Cruz: Well, it’s somehow matter of kind of dealing with the fact that people do make snap decisions, that’s ultimately what this unconscious or hidden bias is. We make snap decisions based upon what we see and experience and we can do so even without really realizing it, and that’s where it could be problematic. And in my role as an employment lawyer, when it comes to, for example, claims of discrimination, I want to get a sense of why someone has made a decision. What is it about the circumstances that led them to that conclusion? Oftentimes, you can see that once you really think a little deeper, you find out that there may have been some immediate reaction but once people kind of get their feet under and they realize, oh that’s probably not appropriate or I shouldn’t be doing it that way. And it’s helpful just to try to make sure that the workplace is fair, life is fair as much as possible given the amazing diversity we have within, for example, here in California.

Tony Sipp: Right. I went to the AVA website just to, you know, do a little bit of research and one of the stats that they provided was that people of color, make up 30% of the population and yet 60% of prisoners which is —

Jill Francisco: What?

Tony Sipp: Outrageous, right? Yeah, I know, when I heard it too, I stopped and paused for a second but I mean it has a great impact on our society. And you know, I know Al’s been doing a lot of great work on this and educating people but, you know, like you said it does or kind of our instinctual, I know I’m misquoting you right now, but a lot of that discernment that we do makes us smarter but at the same time, it shows our vulnerabilities as well and we need to like slow down and realize that this is what’s going on and you know, see it from a different perspective.

Al De La Cruz: No doubt. The criminal justice system it’s been a long time coming where people start viewing that system and matter that allows for more of a color blind approach. Unfortunately, historically we have come up with these issues with regard to what effectively heuristics, their rules of thumb that we tend to apply and unfortunately they get applied oftentimes in an unfair fashion. So recognizing that and try to do something to temper that are going to have results that aren’t really appropriate for the circumstance but rather reflect what our biases that we bring with us from childhood onward to adulthood.

Jill Francisco: Yeah and sadly I was just going to say, a lot of those are learn like you said it’s what you’ve just seen and then you come a time where you start learning like okay, I shouldn’t be looking at XYZ this way or I shouldn’t be and that’s where I find that you know, like paralegal I was a President of NALA and I kind of brought DEI, I thought it was important and I thought NALA needed to be looking at it and I thought we should have a committee and just, you know, research and focus and be aware and teach and, you know, just like, you know, because sometimes people not knowing, is the reason that, you know, they’re just not educated about it. It’s not that they think one way or the other or know one way or the other, they just don’t know at all. And, you know, you bring it to light. And so, and I think it’s a learning process but like, Tony and I both, I know, I mean, we have different opinions on a lot of things, but I know we’re on the same page when I feel like that we agree that one of the best things that we can do, like you said in the law office or the many places that paralegals are at is you know, speak up and share and not, you know, you don’t have to announce with everybody maybe you talk to that person, you know, one-on-one when you kind of, you know, or you kind of say, hey, did you ever think about, you know, not looking at it this way but looking at it this way because really we should consider, you know, and I feel like that I’ve done that a couple times because I feel like that’s my job. Like if I care about it and I want to change and I want to make it better that’s what I need to do.

Al De La Cruz: That’s a great point, because you need to be conscious of it otherwise how you approach it will very possibly the bad way. What you just mentioned though, is a great illustration of how we then confront that. Clearly, we would like to have our sources made on merit rather than anything improper, whether it be race, gender, etc. What we can do by using this, I guess methodology is to convey in an appropriate manner to let people know.

(00:10:06)

You know, you’re really coming from an odd position here. I think you might be making a decision without giving due regard to all the circumstances, you can snap judgment and how you approach that I think is so important to get buy-in. It can be confrontational, lawyers by nature confrontational, and so it could be something that is for that reason not all well received but if you approach it from the point of view there’s a better way of doing this, can we give this some consideration and bringing that perspective that you have really helps that discussion.

Jill Francisco: I feel like you just have to speak up and like you said be, you know, thoughtful in your wording, you know, kind, you know whatever, kind and considerate and everything like we should be to each other, but I think the key is you got to speak up.

Tony Sipp: And that you have to have the intent. You want things to be fair and equal, you don’t want to be perceived as somebody whose prejudice or bias about anything. So just again, slow down, listen, you know, you know yourself well enough but if somebody’s giving you constructive criticism, listen. There might be something to that as well. So Al, I was going to do in the next segment, but I know that you already know about the Law360 Article regarding Manning & Kass and DEI. Maybe you can talk to us about how we can foster a more inclusive and equitable environment that actively works to combat and plus advises.

Al De La Cruz: Thank you. That’s something we’re very proud of, proud of as a firm, proud of the result and also proud of course the recognition. But we’ve always taken the position that you just look for quality people in line with their values and if you do that, those issues largely sort themselves out but it has to be with an open mind so that you do have helpful and fostering environment.

Tony Sipp: Absolutely, absolutely.

Jill Francisco: So let’s run away before we get into something, why don’t we take a quick break and then we will be right back with continuing our conversation with Mr. De La Cruz.

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Jill Francisco: Welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. I’m Jill Francisco with my co-host Tony Sipp and we have Al De La Cruz here joining us today and we were just kind of wrapping up our discussion with there’s a Law360 Article out and Al, I didn’t know if you want to maybe tell our listeners a little bit more details about that and then maybe also if they’re interested in reading it, checking it out, where they can find it easily.

Al De La Cruz: Yes it’s a great article in terms of just what Law360 does that try to highlight some of these issues in this instance, our firm was identified as from that is committed and showing actual results regarding DEI. It’s clearly an important part of what we need to do as a community, especially within the legal community because this historically has been disproportionately under represented. So that change is important to us all, I think that’s a part of what we need to do within society. And so again, we’re very pleased to have that recognition.

Jill Francisco: Awesome, awesome.

Tony Sipp: What are the potential consequences of implicit bias in areas such as employment, education, the criminal justice, our legal field?

Al De La Cruz: Well, it covers all those areas. In fact, we haven’t touched upon education at all yet but historically education has been a big area where these biases have had unintended consequences both negative and positive. There are places where people are perceived in a particular manner and then given favorable treatment unbeknownst to even to the actor. The person giving that treatment is just how they respond it’s not like the intentional type of bias and therefore it has effects with teaching, with education, how teachers perceive various student populations, it also affects whether people are socially economically disadvantaged, if you have someone who doesn’t have those resources, there’s almost a presumption that they aren’t able to then achieve as well when mentality and intellect aren’t financially related, it’s just access and opportunity and of course, solid education. So that’s clearly an important part of what we’re trying to improve as a community.

(00:15:14)

Jill Francisco: Yeah, and think about when you’re talking about opportunities, how many missed opportunities? I mean, like you here — because you here, I mean, most of success stories and you hear about how, you know, they finally had that one teacher that one, you know, person in their life or whoever it was that gave them the opportunity and then they just ran with it. And like you said, it wasn’t their ability or their motivation or their commitment or you know, whatever you want to say on them that they weren’t doing these things and weren’t moving forward, it was that it just wasn’t accessible to them.

Al De La Cruz: Oh sure. We want to make it as accessible as possible. I think just highlighting this issue such that people recognize that it’s their will help with that because every day, it’s something that I know I have to work on, I’ll see something. I’ll realize my first response to it really isn’t the best response that I can provide. It forces me to actually do that on a daily basis to ensure that I’m not taking something, which is my initial snapshot, or my initial impression and using that for any type of decision-making or something of consequence.

Tony Sipp: So can you tell off of with I was saying, I actually took the implicit bias test from Harvard. I don’t want to say I’m embarrassed to say that I didn’t do well, but I didn’t do. Because it’s really, we all have biases. I would like to thank I mean, I believe Jill and I were the first ones to start DEI with our respective associations and so it’s something that we care about and that we highly value and we want to see it improve. So I take the test just honestly Google implicit bias test and it’ll be the first thing that pops up. So it’s something worth doing, you know, clicking in those pictures and the results it’s enlightening.

Al De La Cruz: No doubt. In fact, I’ve taken the test as well. I would like to say that I was perfect at it, I wasn’t. I think it does show that this implicit portion is something that we just do in a snapshot and it gets ahead of us our rational brain and the way this actually works out is there’s two systems, we all use. It’s system one and system two. System one is this quick immediate type of judgment. System two is actually the one that involves more thought. So here we’re trying to apply both and snap judgments will take over for considered thought and it’s amazing to think that we all would like to believe that we’re right there with light and point of view but reality has hit us pretty hard.

Tony Sipp: It’s so true. It’s so true.

Jill Francisco: Y’all have to take that test and report back.

Tony Sipp: Y’all agree with us.

Jill Francisco: No, I was just going to say it’s true, like I’ve had a couple of speakers that they have you know, there’s a little I’m sure, Al has the samples too where you ask a couple of questions or you know, have a couple examples and you come into it thinking oh I’m fine like I know about it, I’m conscious of it. I’m trying to not do it, you know, I’m really giving an effort and then you’re like oh, you know? And that is why to constantly attend these types of speeches and presentations and learning opportunities because I think that there’s something that can always resonate or clicks in your mind or you think, okay, I get it like, I thought I got it but now I’m really getting it or, you know, it’s like you’re gaining more knowledge and you can be better and you have more tools to try to make a better decision.

Al De La Cruz: Definitely. There was a little test I did a while back of myself just to sort of check myself on it. I hire a lot of attorneys and I get a lot of resumes. And so, I made a point one time of having my assistant take off all the names and remove all their references, to see how I did in terms of evaluating candidates based on that and I’ll confess I thought I was going to be right, dialed on equally, fair all of that, but it does sip in and just it’s just an insidious thing and so you have to recognize it because you can’t combat it unless you’re willing to acknowledge that it exists. And once that was revealed, it was very eye-opening for me.

Tony Sipp: Wow, it is enlightening once you start to, you know, realize what your biases. But then you know what, the difference between a lot of people in you is that you do something about it. You know, you don’t want to be that person, you want to be the person that is, you know, fair, equal and equitable and make sure that people are inclusive and belonging. You want to do the DEI and be right. So I think that’s great. I made the mistake 2000. We had a president who was hearing impaired or rather deaf and hard of hearing. Now my bias was that I presume that everybody could hear and read and know what was going on. She couldn’t. And she educated me on my bias and I’ve become better because I didn’t know, I didn’t know it was in my world, it wasn’t something that impacted me at all but once it did, now I do.

(00:20:09)

Jill Francisco: Lesson learned.

Tony Sipp: Lesson learned, lesson learned, I will not do that ever again.

Al De La Cruz: As long as we’re improving that’s the main thing.

Tony Sipp: Exactly, and to that point, what are some examples of successful interventions aimed at reducing implicit bias and how can we build upon them?

Al De La Cruz: Well, what I do when I speak on this is I try to take it away from something that I think people will automatically want to respond to in an almost a hostile manner. If it’s about race or it’s about gender orientation, there are things that people then hold onto from their own personal perspective whereas if I can show them, here’s how this scenario works whether it’s height in terms of payment on success or CEOs, if it’s something involving numbers, there’s an example I use and I give everyone a piece of paper and I ask them a question and to show that these factors do affect you. One set of paper will have one number, the other will have a higher number and I’ll ask the age of Mahatma Gandhi. And it’s amazing how those who see the higher number automatically skew much higher by as much as 30 years at the time of death versus the one that had a lower number. And this is just — it’s not even a number speaking to that issue, it’s just a number on the piece of paper but they see that and suddenly they’re keyed on that and that affects their thinking. That type of non-racial, non-gender type of issue then makes it clear that we do have — it’s a difficult challenge to overcome that because we automatically do it and that’s what makes it harder, if you’re not going to accept that as the reality. It’s a huge way of proving to yourself and some other non-sensitive topic that this is a reality from just a human perspective.

Tony Sipp: Well, the AVA does have a toolkit on implicit bias. So I would suggest people go who are interested in this topic, which all of us should be, to go on the AVA’s website and take a look at that. They address those issues with judges, lawyers, anybody of council, so that you know, one we could recognize it, even judges, shocking response from the judges, it was dead-on with Al was saying and they recognize it and they did something about it. So that’s good. Not every judge does that. Not every lawyer does that. Not everybody does that. So I mean that’s why we’re having this conversation because it’s meaningful and relevant.

Jill Francisco: Well, about Al touch, we’ll talk a little bit of break, but I think you were saying something about height that you used a little example.

Tony Sipp: I was like 6’7”.

Al De La Cruz: Well there was a study done about CEOs and what the height was an overall. 58% of CEOs are 5 ft. or excuse me, 6 ft. or higher. So 58%, now that’s of the overall population that’s about 14.5%. So 4 to 1 ratio is just shows you how significant height can be in that factor with nothing else in regard, and it goes even higher with if you get to 6’2” and higher, it goes to about a 10 to 1 ratio. So height has a factor on people and it’s odd because we don’t really view that as okay, that makes you more intelligent or not but it has a physical presence which everyone can visually attend to and as a result, that demographic just shows you how people will view individuals having greater leadership or some other intangible skill that leads them to a CEO position and that same type of thing actually then carries into bias as it relates to gender and that’s why we still maintain a gender payment disparity, there’s a gender gap that still exists in payment and it’s proven time and time again.

Jill Francisco: That’s what I was just going to say, I was going to say, and then that height think obviously translates into like you said the gender because I mean women are not going to be you know as tall as men traditionally. I don’t think. I mean like I said, I’m speaking for your experience I’m 5 ft. tall because listeners cannot see me but you know, and then I live with my husband and my 18-year-old son is like 6’4”. So, it’s interesting. It comes in handy to reach things but, you know, other than that, but no, seriously. That is really — that’s something that you wouldn’t think about. Like, I mean, I don’t know if anybody would, if you were talking about this subject that you would talk about height, but that’s interesting. And of such a like, you know, high on the leadership, high on the, you know, in all areas, you know, controlling companies, the leaders, the people on the top of the scale and then like you said goes into gender, goes into pay, goes into, I mean, it just flows like it’s just opened up the floodgates almost on that, on the other issues that you would encounter.

Al De La Cruz: Well, that goes back to the question that Tony asked originally. What’s the difference between implicit versus explicit?

(00:25:00)

Explicit is clearly the more than line of racism or sexism and any other types of inappropriate behavior, where people just have this preconceived notion that they have a whether it’s animosity or just a bias that’s not really appropriate. You can see those actions in what they do in that regard. It’s the implicit portion that people can modify, just have to recognize it, put some attention on it, really try to focus on what is important and in that matter try to be as fair as possible but it’s a task, it’s a daily task.

Jill Francisco: I agree. I agree. But like you said, as long as we’re moving forward, moving the right direction, trying, you know, learning.

Al De La Cruz: Oh yeah. I agree. And I’ll tell you, I’m the oldest of the group here and I recall back, this goes back to 60s and 70s and how people behave back in that era and how different it is now here in this millennia, this decade, the world has changed greatly and it’s going in the right direction, I believe. But you know, the things that happened back in the 70s for example, what people would say and what was acceptable behavior, amazing, would never fly today, but I think that’s a good sign of change.

Jill Francisco: Right, right, exactly. That’s a demonstration and like you said going the right direction. Let’s take another quick break and then we’ll come back to wrap up on this very important discussion we’ve been having today.

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Jill Francisco: Welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. I’m Jill Francisco and here with Tony Sipp and our guest Al De La Cruz. And so, Al we want to — we obviously have much to say on this topic, we could talk for hours and you have so much useful information. But how about some I think you were going to talk about some things that like people can do and people you know, examples and things like that you’re going to just kind of run through some of your hot topic issues and things that you’ve come across.

Al De La Cruz: Yes. Well, the thing about this topic is it’s something that people view as a sort of a soft science or fuzzy science and reality is the data shows what it shows and people have concerns and issues with subconscious bias. So the first thing I think we have to do is truly understand the issue and podcast such as this really helps with that getting that word out. There’s been a lot of popular discussion about this. There was a great book about this topic involving making decisions fast and slow a book by Daniel Kahneman, really great, treat us on it but there is also a very well-known book by Malcolm Gladwell called Blink, which talks about how people make quick decisions. And I think that helped popularize the concept and got us to the point where now we understand. If you want to improve on this, you have to try to understand the issue. That’s the first step. And if you can do that, that’s the first step towards raising your awareness.

Tony Sipp: Wow, that’s important point. It goes to the point of you have to try, you have to want to, you have to have the intent to try to make a difference in yourself and others and be that advocate as well if you see it happening. So Al, can implicit bias be unlearned or mitigated and if so, how?

Al De La Cruz: Well it can’t be unlearned but it can certainly be mitigated and that’s the idea behind the studies that exist. We’re trying to just recognize what it is because if you’re aware of it great, you understand the issue, you can raise this awareness with yourself and others but also there’s a great portion of this field where you use it to your advantage. In other words, make your unconscious work fairly by identifying what’s going on and recognize the issue and if you can do that, you’re taking big steps towards at least mitigating the effects. And that’s one thing that really is a great way of trying to reduce this. Earlier I gave the example of the resumes and trying to remove names. That’s an example of just trying to blind yourself to your triggers. And so if there are things that you think might trigger you one way or the other in the workplace or in just life in general, you want to try to blind yourself to those triggers so that you’re acting without regard to those.

(00:30:05)

What you’re effectively doing is taking away the data that your brain is going to use to make these snap judgments, these heuristic decisions that are based solely upon a snap of what that moment is. By doing that, I think you helped really reduce this effect in the workplace and what we do every day in practice of law, so for us what our role is to try to bring justice to the system and having that insight really does help with that.

Jill Francisco: Kind of ironic bringing justice system and then work. Working the opposite, sometimes not meaning to, so that’s interesting.

Al De La Cruz: Well Jill what you just said, there’s a phrase that comes to mind for me which is “equal does not equal fair”, right? It’s odd because you would tend to think equal is fair well no, equal isn’t always fair and I think that’s a sensitive topic because we don’t like to speak in terms of any type of advantage given to a disadvantaged group. That’s something that I think resonates poorly with people. But if you’re trying to be equal, that’s not necessarily always going to be fair. We should always try to be fair but clearly that skewed towards trying to be equal but there’s a division there that still work. We are kind of working through as a society. We are definitely making great steps and strides but it really does something we continually need to work on.

Jill Francisco: Yeah. Like you said I think that is sensitive and maybe it gets people kind of all you know, riled up right there in the beginning when you know, those steps are taken but they need to be, I think, taken like you said, to get to where it can be fair because sometimes you can keep saying well they have the same. Well, it’s not fair, you know, having the same or like you said equal is sometimes not fair and you have to understand that that’s two different things there.

Tony Sipp: Very true.

Al De La Cruz: Oh yeah.

Tony Sipp: So Al, we’re wrapping up now. If people want to get in contact with you, whether it be for employment law or anything else, just this topic that we’re discussing. Where can they reach you?

Al De La Cruz: Well, I’m a partner resident with the Manning & Kass Firm in San Diego. The website is manningkass.com, you can find me through that website as well. There is occasional speaking opportunities that I put out to the community and various industry groups, those are always available as well. It’s a great topic, I enjoy speaking about it. It’s something. I think is a method for improving goodness in the world. So I’m behind that wholeheartedly and oddly enough, it’s a psychology issue and it’s bound in a lot of very deep economic functions as well. So those things are truly scientific in nature, there’s a lot of great things we can do with that. So we should try to use that psychology for good. So the extent that I get a soapbox, that’s what I try to do with it.

Jill Francisco: Well, I’m sure people will definitely reach out to you.

Tony Sipp: Thank you so much Al, really appreciate that and folks, if you’re interested in reaching out to you Al, he’s highly demanded speaker and guest speaker for a lot of conferences and other venues. So please get in contact with him. I’m sure he’ll get back in contact with you and you know, we can have that discussion, okay?

Jill Francisco: Yes, thank you so much, Al, I appreciate you taking your time today. I know our listeners are going to, you know, learn from you and may have some other questions so hopefully they’ll definitely reach out or like you said seek to learn more, to hear again, to, you know, learn more deeply on a certain subject but I think this has been a good beginning for those that, you know, haven’t thought about it and I think it gives them a little kind of just look in the mirror type day and say you know, let me see if I’m doing this and if I am let me try to not do this, let me try to change, let me try to at least work towards being conscious and not having those implicit biases.

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Al De La Cruz: Jill, Tony, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this topic, this is what I enjoy and you’ve been great helping me through this process.

Tony Sipp: Thank you so much.

Jill Francisco: Thank you. So I’m Jill Francisco and with my co-host Tony Sipp, and we hope that you will join us next time on the next episode of the Paralegal Voice.

Outro: The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.

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