Strategies for Mindful Business Development

Episode Notes

Transcript

Jim Reeder:

Hello everyone and welcome to Litigation Radio. I’m your host, Jim Reeder. I am a lawyer practicing antitrust and commercial litigation in the Houston office of Jones Day. In addition to trying lawsuits, I have spent my entire career focused on helping young lawyers become great lawyers. On this show, we talk to the country’s top litigators, judges, in-house counsel and academics to discover best practices for developing careers, winning cases, getting more clients, and building a sustainable practice, all while staying well and happy. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcasting app to make sure you never miss an episode. Litigation Radio is brought to you by the litigation section of the American Bar Association. It’s where I make my home in the A BA and I’m a huge proponent of the section of litigation. This podcast is just one example of the dozens of resources.

Jim Reeder:

The section of litigation provides litigators of all practice areas to help them become successful trial lawyers for our clients. Learn more and become a member at ambar.org/litigation. That’s ambar.org/litigation. Today our topic is one that every litigator seems to want help with the effective business development strategy. We’re fortunate to have two guests with us today who have demonstrated over time that they have a real knack for developing clients. Tracy Salmon Smith is a partner in the Flora Park New Jersey office, a fagre drinker. She specializes in complex commercial disputes and employment litigation. Her colleague Maureen Cruz, is a PhD neuroscientist and is a principal in the government and regulatory affairs practice in the Washington DC office of Fagre. Welcome, Tracy and Maureen.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Thanks, Jim. Thank you Jim.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, so first off, I think that one of the things that helps contribute to our collective learning civil discourse and understanding is just getting to know each other. I think it provides incredible insight into why each of us thinks the way we do. As such, I like to start off by having our guests do two things. One, share a thumbnail of your career path and two, share something about yourself, your background, your childhood and experience that has shaped who you are. Tracy, let’s start with you.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Sure. Thanks Jim. For me, I’m originally from New York and grew up in the New York area. When I started my legal career, I had come back from law school, came back to Long Island and started practicing there From private practice, I went to the US Attorney’s Office in Brooklyn, the Eastern District of New York because I wanted to be a trial lawyer and I had realized that staying at the law firm that my opportunities for actually getting into court and certainly getting to trial were not as great as if I were in the government. So the opportunity came up and I went to the US Attorney’s office, which was the best thing that I did for my career as a trial lawyer, I left the US Attorney’s office and ended up back in private practice for a little bit, but then I ended up having an opportunity to go in-house as a associate general counsel at UBS financial services.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

So I had the opportunity to have private practice, government and in-house experience. And since leaving UBS, I’ve been back in private practice and so we all know that private practice is the area where business development is obviously top of mind. In terms of my childhood and my background, I grew up in Brooklyn and then out on Long Island. My father had been in the military and he was in the Navy and so he was very regimented and I think that flowed down to my brothers and myself. Something you used to say all the time is if you show up on time, you are late. He would say be early for everything and just he had a process for thinking through everything. And so I think that that is something that absolutely shaped me growing up and as the lawyer than I am today.

Jim Reeder:

So that can either shape you in that you emulate that or it can shape you in that you rebel against that. I think it’s a hugely important though background element to help you understand I think the way some people think obviously. And so that’s cool. I love that you shared that with us. Thank you. Alright, Maureen, give us a little thumbnail.

Maureen Cruz:

So I am a principal in the government and regulatory affairs, so it might be a little bit different than your typical Litigation Radio podcast. Guess in the sense that I’m not an attorney, I

Jim Reeder:

Suspect that we can learn much from on attorneys, so I’m glad you’re here.

Maureen Cruz:

So happy to share my experience with you. I am a neuroscientist, so even my undergrad degree was in neuroscience. I also have a master’s in public health because I wanted to have a broader view of our health systems and how they affect population health. It was then where I realized I actually like research and I tend to be similar to Tracy. These early experiences shaped my career. I found that I have this inclination towards processes and being very analytical. And so after finishing my master’s, I did a PhD, but then I went back to neuroscience. I always liked human biology and I wanted to focus on neuroscience. My mother was a nurse in the operating room and so I’ve always sort of had the brain and nervous system as part of my childhood. So after graduate school I did postdoctoral training, so I was on a very traditional academic career path, but I realized that the day-to-day of it actually running a lab is very much like running a small business and you’re always running grants, you’re looking for funding, you’re trying to find funding for the people in your lab.

Maureen Cruz:

And so it is, it’s a tough grind, but you’re also learning how to design experiments. You’re publishing papers. So I was looking at how to do the things that I liked in the lab but not necessarily in a traditional career. And I think that has really shaped a lot of my career path, taking things, but putting a different perspective on it. And so I took, I guess my academic skills and I became a consultant in the health and life sciences industry. So I worked for a very large government contracting firm where a lot of our clients were in the DOD, so a lot of service members were coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan with traumatic brain injury, PTSD. And then so they needed scientists to evaluate the research portfolio. So that’s where I first learned to work with clients. So moving from a solitary environment to working with clients. And then from there I transitioned to the firm not knowing that law firms were hiring scientists, but our practice, it really makes sense. A lot of our clients are in the health and life sciences industry. Many are in the pharmaceutical industry, medical devices, biotech. So we help our clients collaborate pre-com competitively. And so that’s where my path has taken today in terms of my childhood. So I grew up in New Jersey.

Maureen Cruz:

I am the child of first generation immigrants and I think that has shaped me a lot in terms of my upbringing and having different perspectives and having different ways to communicate and understand people.

Jim Reeder:

Yeah, I think where we’re from has much more impact on us than we give it credit. I also think I had one question to ask somebody that would help me understand a lot about them. It is whether they are a process person or a results person. I mean there are people obviously who get so frustrated and bored with the process because all they really want is just to get to the end. And then there are others who think that the process is very important and therefore they want to make sure that that is taken care of seriously and that you hear people et cetera. Those two different things, nothing wrong with either one of them, but they certainly explain a lot about the way that we deal with each other and the way we look at things. So I think that’s great that you shared that as well.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, so let’s get into the meat of it. When I first started practicing nearly 40 years ago, business development just wasn’t even a topic. Alright? I’m not sure why. I think there were fewer lawyers, there was less competition, less specialization, more people were generalists, et cetera. And yet today it seems like it’s on every lawyer’s mind. Where am I going to get my next case? Where am I going to get my next client? You can no longer just wait for the phone to ring. You have to be proactive and somehow you have to do it while also maintaining a very active practice. I think one of the biggest parts, and we want to talk about that. So let’s start there. In a given month, let’s say, what would you say the breakdown is between the amount of time you’re working on your cases, existing clients and matters and the amount of time you’re spending on business development? And if you could change that, how would you change that? Maureen?

Maureen Cruz:

Obviously it’s going to vary by every month, but I think on a daily basis I touch a little bit every day. I think often I’m following up with clients, I’m sending materials to prospective clients if I’m attending a conference. So that’s a huge chunk of time that I’m spending just meeting new people. If I had to guess a percent, if I average that everything again, maybe I’m getting analytical here, but I would say maybe 12 to 15% on business development versus my current client work.

Jim Reeder:

Do you wish you could do more? Do you wish it could be like 20% or 25% or do you think that’s a good balance?

Maureen Cruz:

I guess I always wish I could do more and I think I wish I could do more of the things that I like to do, but there’s always going to have to be follow ups, always going to have to be putting yourself there in front of a new client in a new environment. There’s always going to be that and sometimes you find out you actually like some of those things. So the exploration of it and putting yourself into new environments or meeting new clients is

Jim Reeder:

Well, it’s definitely an advantage to be able to realize that you enjoy it. Okay. So Tracy, same question. How does it break down for you?

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yeah, so I would say I try to look at it on a weekly and monthly basis, but I would say that it’s probably about 10% and I would like it to be more, I just don’t seem to have more hours in the day to get everything done. But I think you have to be very deliberate about client development and business development. And I have recommended to some of my associates that I mentor that if you put time on your calendar and you may not be able to get to it every week, but if you put the time there and you get used to the time, that’s when you can take a pause from your work and start thinking about putting the time into business development. Did you read some article that you could forward on to a client? Should you reach out to a client to try and schedule get on their calendar? That’s never easy, but trying to coordinate schedules for lunches and things like that. So I think I’m probably about 10% but would love to do more, but unfortunately they’re only 24 hours in a day.

Jim Reeder:

I love that point though about putting something on the calendar, right? Because it can be just as you say, it can be, okay, I’m going to read the articles in the magazines that have piled up the litigation journal that have piled up on my desk. I’m going to read those or at least catch up on them or my industry publications or whatever. Or it might be that I’m going to set up some lunches and the fact is, even if you have to set up a lunch two or three months from now, if you start now, pretty soon your lunches are actually then in sequence and working naturally in sort of month to month. I know some really good trial lawyers whose business development attitude is 0% rather than 10%. Their attitude is I’m just going to keep doing a great job for my clients and that should be enough to keep them coming back. It’s certainly easier because your brain doesn’t have to shift into a different mode.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

I don’t

Jim Reeder:

Know, can that be an effective

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Strategy? For some people it may be. I would venture to guess for the majority of us, that is not a great strategy because the issue is that there are many lawyers out there and many lawyers trying to make touch points with your clients. And so you need to stay in front of them and touch base and do things where you are connecting with your clients. And so if you just rely on, oh, I’m doing good work, we’re moving the case along, honestly, your client could forget about you, but I say forget about you. And in this general sense that something new may come in and they’re not thinking of you for something new because you’re working on something currently, but something new comes in, you want them to think of you. And so that’s where it’s important to be very deliberate about keeping the connections, making the connections because there is no guarantee that your name is going to stay with them given all the pressures of the in-house world and the constant barrage, I’m sure, because I remember when I was in-house of people always wanting to connect with you and meet with you and see how they can help you.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

So you’re not the only one. There are others out there. And I think as a good client service, you keep in touch with your clients and you never know what could pop up

Jim Reeder:

And it’s easier for you because you have the relationship. So they have all these people who are also reaching out to them hoping that they will be able to grab them as a new client. But for you it’s low hanging fruit because you have the relationship, you’re doing the work, and if you neglect it or you just take it for granted, then it’s possible you could lose it. But the fact is that it’s so much easier for you because you’re constantly in contact with them, you’re on the phone with them, you’re talking to them, you’re updating them, you have the chance every day or multiple times a week to sort of have that touchpoint, introduce your colleagues, et cetera, right?

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yeah. You have the leg up in that relationship as compared to others who are trying to be you in the relationship. So a hundred percent agree.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, so Maureen, I love the fact that you come in here from a different perspective, obviously not the lawyer perspective, but you are there and you are putting together groups of clients, you are putting together and identifying clients who are affected by things that are going on in an industry for instance. And I think business development for litigators can be particularly daunting because they can spend obviously a lot of time hustling for new clients, but unlike clients in some practice areas where there’s a sort of study treatment matters, litigation matters don’t come up every day for clients. And so you can work and work and work and work and they may never get sued or never need to sue anybody, but you have a really good strategy about how you sort of focus your business development energies with regard because you’re industry based, right? So tell us about that and how that works for you building a reputation and becoming a sort of trusted advisor to your clients.

Maureen Cruz:

We do have a unique perspective in the firm because we are not doing litigation, but because we have, our clients are large national corporations that are in the health and life sciences industry, so we have a number of potential individual clients within our portfolio, and so becoming their trusted advisor are, our goal is to be their go-to. And I think the firm takes a really creative approach to that because they present us as a very holistic, a very multidisciplinary team. And so I guess your other question about is it an effective strategy to be just doing a great job, one of the partners I work with is saying, business development is something you do every day by doing a great job. And that’s how we establish becoming that trusted advisor to our clients and in also helping them to see what’s on the horizon. That’s where maybe more of our training as scientists as having different perspectives outside of the law really helps us to work with the attorneys and say, okay, there’s other opportunities. Here’s what we’re reading in the literature and here’s what we’re seeing in the regulatory landscape. How can we put all these things together and who do we need to pull in? It’s not going to be scientists that can help you with all of these problems, but it it’s the firm that can do that. And so that’s how we bring our business development efforts and say, as a firm, are we connecting all of the dots internally? Do we know all of our strengths? And then it’s how do we communicate that to the client?

Jim Reeder:

I think there’s a lot to be learned there because you are really a specialist and a lot of us aren’t necessarily, and we don’t necessarily have time to sort of learn what’s on the horizon, if you will see what’s coming down for the variety of industries that we might address. But Tracy, how do you establish your credentials, if you will? How do you stay on top of what’s going on? Do you actually stay on top and share things with your clients?

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Absolutely. So I tend to be a very voracious reader, and so I read a lot of magazines and journals, all the A stuff. And when there is an opportunity to forward something to a client to have a discussion or just even letting your client know, Hey, I thought of you when I read this article, I think this is interesting or this might be helpful to you or this might be something for you to consider. The clients are grateful because you understand their business, you understand their industry. And so forwarding along things like that is very helpful. I know in the past we’ve talked about people who are monitoring the dockets and as soon as a case hits the docket, they’re forwarding it to the general counsel. And that is not always a very effective strategy that I know from the in-house point of view, it can actually be quite annoying to get 10 copies of the same complaint that was filed and everyone’s like, Hey, you’ve just been sued. This has been filed against you.

Jim Reeder:

In some ways it’s almost worse because they have to sort through 20 of those and may not even recognize why you should be the one that just because you found it and sent it to ’em doesn’t necessarily tell ’em. Obviously you’ve got to do more than that. If you’re going to send it, you at least have got to show in some form or fashion why you know about these types of claims, how you might address these types of claims, et cetera. I suspect that that is more turns out to be a better and more effective way than just sending the thing.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yes, absolutely. Because just sending it saying, I see you got sued, can I help? Is just not effective. If you say things along the lines of, my firm handles cases like this, we’d be happy to chat with you depending on if it’s someone you’ve never really been involved with as opposed to your current clients will depend on how you address them with that information. But there are, as one of the general counsel I used to work with said, there’s sort of a danger to when you’re forwarding flipping these state court complaints because the company’s time to remove it starts to run because now they know about it, they haven’t been served, but they know about it.

Jim Reeder:

Yeah. And I do think that if you can in your cover email or whatever, you can say, listen, we’ve handled a case like this, or we know these plaintiff’s attorneys or we know we’ve seen this type of thing before, that often is more effective. But the other point is that if you just are sending something that you’ve discovered that you’ve read and you say, this is interesting thought, you might find this interesting. This goes to whatever you’re doing here. There, you’re the only one probably sending it that day. And so it’s going to probably get more attention. Have you ever had clients after your potential clients, after you’ve sent something like that, call you or email you back and say, listen, I’d love to talk to you about that, or, this is interesting, we had something like this happen the other day and it’d be great if I could talk to you and pick your brain about it.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yes, absolutely. Have had clients call wanting to chat more about it. That’s a very natural, organic way of developing the relationship and you want to show that you are a trusted advisor and that you are thinking about the company and the issues that they may be facing. And so doing things like that is very helpful.

Jim Reeder:

So I know that in a larger firm environment, the world is sort of divided into sort of external clients, what we would consider traditional clients, but also internal clients that there are partners of yours and colleagues of yours within the firm who have relationships. And as a result, you want them to know what you’re doing as well so that they know that if a relationship that they have has got an issue. So how do you ensure that you both external clients and internal clients know who you are and what your expertise

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Is? Sure. I think that with respect to the internal clients, that it’s just as important because you can only have but so many relationships and things that you are juggling. And it’s always nice when you get a call from one of your partners to say, Hey, I have this matter in the southern district of New York. I know that you’ve handled similar things. Can we talk about this? And then it’s something that gets referred to you. So it’s internal networking, it’s talking with people, letting them know what you do. So our firm has many offices across the country, and so the firm is very good about trying to get people to know each other and what each other does. So

Jim Reeder:

How do they do that? So

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

We have practice group meetings where we meet in person. We have partner meetings where we meet in person and where there are deliberate efforts to provide opportunities for networking amongst ourselves, we have broken down even further into industry groups. And so we have financial services where all of those lawyers get together and we talk about the kinds of cases that we have. And so it will be a situation where you might be speaking with your client about something and you’re like, oh, my partner handles things like that. Let me connect you. And so I think those internal references are just as important. I think that I get more work through internal references sort of on a monthly basis as opposed to a brand new client,

Jim Reeder:

Which might be once a year or twice a year. Right,

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Exactly, exactly. So business development to me is about networking and developing relationships and building relationships that is the key because it helps externally and internally as well.

Jim Reeder:

Maureen, further thoughts about the internal client?

Maureen Cruz:

Yeah, definitely. The internal clients are very important for us as non-attorneys because I was finding that when I first joined the firm, people didn’t even know that we existed. People didn’t know that there were scientists in the firm or what we do. So just explaining to people, yes, we’re here and here are the ways that we could potentially help you because outside of our day-to-day work with our existing clients, when people know what you do, people on our team have gotten calls from folks who are working on tariffs because there’s a certain chemical or compound that’s being tariffed and they need to characterize it in a certain way. And so their call on our team to help them evaluate or assess the information, or there could be a call from investment. There are people who want to start a foundation and they want to fund biological research. And so they’re looking for people to help put together their scientific board.

Jim Reeder:

So yeah, there’s a lot there that just doesn’t come to front of mind as being, oh, well this is what they must do and instead if you can get out there and you can share, then there’s a plethora of stuff and skills and talents and expertise that your group has and that you might have.

Maureen Cruz:

Absolutely, and I mean Tracy, I guess what I took from Tracy’s are the same key messages is to know the firm, go to other offices, meet people in other offices, or even attend meetings from other teams, other practice groups, and then even on an individual level know what are recent wins or what are recent successes. Getting to know people on just the individual level, what they’re good at can go a long way.

Jim Reeder:

Well, I love that. I think that a couple of points that you made there that resonate with me, one that if you discover that there is a practice group that’s not your practice group that has some sort of regular meeting, gets together regularly or maybe even has kind of a weekly newsletter or something, see if you can get in front of them for your practice group. It’s like if y’all have a panel coming up, I’d love to participate in it. Or here’s a great subject that I’d love to write a little article for your piece on so that you find that the practice groups that have a ity with you, if you will, and try to take advantage of that. I mean, I think that’s huge within a firm. Alright, but obviously there are lots of litigators and lots of our listeners who are not at big firms, so they don’t have that sort of internal networking. They really are just working externally. So let’s talk about the external client and what you do that you have discovered is effective given the amount of time that you have available. The big issue, as you both said, if I had more time I’d do more, but I don’t. And so how do I decide what it is I’m going to spend my time? So Tracy, how do you decide what to pursue with regard to business development and the external client?

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yeah, so first I think you have to be, as I was mentioning earlier, very deliberate and purposeful about your business development efforts. You need to be organized and sort of figure out what efforts are worthwhile. Business development is a long game. You’re not going to talk to somebody once or twice and then end up with a bet, the company case, right? It’s baby steps and nowadays it’s even more baby steps, but you have to really figure out what is worth putting your efforts towards. And I found that focusing on particular organizations where my clients participate in some industry organizations and even things like the a b ABA Litigation Section, like corporate council meeting, like a C, C, things where people who are your potential clients participate in, but not for you to just be there. You need to dive in and provide some value. And of course that takes time, but it’s time well spent.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

I think that getting on panels to talk about hot topics and also the other thing that I do is I try to get my clients on those panels. I like speaking, I particularly don’t necessarily writing as much just because it takes even more time, but if I could organize a panel and have one or two of my clients involved in that panel, I mean that’s gold for me because you’re now getting to spend time that’s sort of outside of whatever particular cases you are working on and it’s a very natural organic kind of situation to put together a panel like this. So I think participating in things, bar associations and other organizations where your clients will be being on panels, organizing panels, having your clients be on panels with you is key. The other is going to various networking events where your clients will be, your potential clients will be you go, and as my father says in the back of my head, if you’re on time, you’re late.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

I try to go early. I know that’s a big effort for people, but I try to go early to these events because many times they’re set up as a reception and then maybe a sit down dinner or something. The reception is the time when you’re going to meet people, talk to people, you can always follow up and once you sit down, you’re sort of relegated to the couple of people on either side of you, but if you go early, you’ll have an opportunity to speak to more people and go to networking events and things like that. And it requires multiple touches. I would like to tell a quick story about a time where I had been going to many different and trying to get my work done and everything and there was this one event coming up and I was like, Ugh, I really just don’t feel like going, but I was like, you know what?

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

I need to go. So I ended up going, I sat at a table, I started talking to this woman about our dogs, I don’t even remember how we got on the subject. Next thing we learned that she was looking for counsel in the area where I live. So it was very for so funny. And so then we followed up and she took the opportunity to bring me to her organization and then I ended up representing them in my area where I live in Monmouth County, New Jersey. And so that would’ve never happened if I had not gone to the event and happened to sit at the table with her. So you just need to keep at it.

Jim Reeder:

You hear the phrase work the room and it’s not natural for everybody, but really reception’s no longer usually than an hour, whatever, shortly over an hour. It’s not hard work necessarily to make your way around the room and talk to whoever and don’t look over their shoulder for the next person or for that federal judge or the state district court judge. So remember that if you do be purposeful when you’re doing everything related to business development, sounds like a good plan, especially if you’re going to networking events because it turns into work. The PTA and the sports events and things that you do with your kids and the things that you might do with your spouse all have, they find out, oh, you’re a lawyer, and the next thing you know you’ve got something. Alright, so Maureen, she doesn’t prefer to write, she prefers to speak. My guess is that given your background, you like to write, but also tell us some of the other things that you do to determine whether something’s worthwhile to pursue with regard to external clients.

Maureen Cruz:

Yeah, definitely. Writing is a big part of our visibility to external clients. I mean with our current clients that we work with in the industry, peer reviewed literature is the gold standard in the industry. And so that’s the major output of our clients. And so to be able to promote or bring visibility and publicize those papers, and not just the papers but the impact of those papers because a lot of those times those papers are research based and they are really communicating best practices in the industry. Those papers get put in front of regulators. And so when a regulator is citing your client’s paper, that really talks about the impact of it and it really brings attention to potential clients that are in the industry. So I can’t tell you how many inquiries we get from potential new clients that said, oh, I saw your paper, I saw this paper and I’m really interested in membership and I really want to know how I can get involved.

Maureen Cruz:

And so it goes really a long way because it’s not just here, but it’s also in Europe, in China and Japan. So a lot of regulatory harmonization that has been going on is really touching a lot of people globally. So it has a far reach in terms of the things that we write. And again, Tracy already mentioned it takes time, it takes a lot of time, but there are other ways to leverage all of these things. Of course, we’re going to publicize these things on LinkedIn, just publicizing even a meeting, just an in-person meeting, putting some photos on LinkedIn about a group that’s coming together already gets a lot of traffic

Jim Reeder:

Commenting about other people’s posts just to be active. I think LinkedIn actually is very underrated if you use it correctly.

Maureen Cruz:

Definitely. Because I think even that is, it’s a low commitment. People can scroll on it for even just 10, 15 minutes a day, but you can still have an impact. You’ll still be touching a lot of people out there and it can drive a lot of questions that can work, that can work in your favor.

Jim Reeder:

Industry updates, do you have ticklers, Google updates that you do for clients, industries, et cetera?

Maureen Cruz:

We do them, yeah. Internally we’ll put together some summaries that our team is sometimes researching within their specific, they might have a very focused area and it’s something that we’ll put together for them and then they see that as a membership benefit.

Jim Reeder:

But for instance, do you get notified, for instance if a client of yours is in the news? Do you have that kind of tickler with regard to Google or elsewhere?

Maureen Cruz:

No, not necessarily. Not currently in place. Yeah.

Jim Reeder:

So we do and actually is very cool and I don’t know how they do it. There’s something going on, but I can get periodically, I can get, oh, here, this client has been in the news the last couple of days. And it’s a great force to be able to obviously be able to then congratulate them on something or tell them that you saw something, finding out what things that clients value. For instance, a lot of clients value pro bono and they can’t seem to get enough pro bono internally. And so being able to come to them with pro bono opportunities, I take it is also something you’ve used.

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Yes, I’ve absolutely used that. I love doing pro bono work and I feel that as lawyers, we are privileged and it should be our honor to do pro bono work. And so there are situations where we have worked on cases with clients like we’ve done clinics because the thing is that they also, their time is limited. They would love to do pro bono, but sometimes it’s the prospect of an actual long-term pro bono case might be a little daunting, but what they can do instead is take part in a clinic. And so for a morning or an afternoon, you can meet with folks for 30 minutes to see what their issues are and that you can help them. Like the New York City bar does a program for the small businesses where they can come in and ask some questions that are important to them and that we could probably answer fairly quickly. And that just helps them enormously. And it feels good for the lawyers involved and the clients really need the help. So anything you can do with connecting clients, potential clients and pro bono is a plus.

Jim Reeder:

And in fact, even if it’s litigation, for instance, having a couple of lawyers from your firm team up with a lawyer seems less daunting, as you say for the in-house counsel because they’re not in a situation where if they’re just really, really busy and they can’t turn their attention to it, that case suffers because you are going to provide backstop for them. I think they love that too. I think that’s a great thought. Alright, and I’d be remiss, Tracy, if I didn’t mention the section of litigation, you and I both active there, you find that to be an effective business development avenue,

Tracy Salmon-Smith:

Absolutely. Between being able to organize and put on panels where you can include your clients, you can invite your clients, that’s excellent. And then just the general networking and referrals. So if one of my colleagues in this section needs a lawyer in New Jersey, there are a few of us that they can refer matters to. And so you, again, back to the networking, it’s all about networking and using that set of organizations to help you. And so yes, it’s absolutely effective

Jim Reeder:

And it can be for writing because there are outlets for writing. It can be for speaking because they’re outlets for speaking, it can be industry related, there are networking events, et cetera. All I think that’s really one of the strengths of the section of the A BA. Alright, so all this really, really helpful stuff. And so thank you. Unfortunately, we are out of time and so maybe we have to do some more at some point because I think it is something that is always helpful. But I want to thank our guests, Maureen Cruz, Tracy Salmon Smith, thank you both for joining us. It’s been great.

Maureen Cruz:

Thanks Jim. Thank you for having us.

Jim Reeder:

Our thanks to litigation section, premier sponsor, Berkeley Research Group for sponsoring this podcast. BRG is an award-winning global consulting firm composed of world-class experts in accounting, damages analysis, economics, finance, intellectual property valuation, data analytics and statistics. And they work across industries, disciplines, and jurisdictions delivering clear perspectives that you can count on. Their guiding principle is intelligent. That works. Learn [email protected]. And now it’s time for a quick tip from the ABA litigation section’s Mental health and Wellness committee. I’d like to welcome Erin Clifford to the podcast. Erin is managing director at Clifford Law Offices in Chicago and a corporate wellness consultant and coach. Welcome to the show, Erin. What’s your quick tip?

Erin Clifford:

So at the end of the year, legal professionals are often under a lot of stress, whether it’s meeting billable hours, wrapping up, open matters, increased client demands, and of course for those of you that celebrate the holidays, lots of extra responsibilities like shopping, traveling, hosting. And so in order to really manage your stress and have a great end of the year, here are my top five strategies. First off, you want to strive for harmony and not balance. We’ve been told if we can just balance everything, our careers, our families, our wellness, then we’ll finally feel fulfilled that if we can just find that perfect formula, everything will stay steady. Life doesn’t work that way. So instead, really try to focus on what your top five values and priorities are at this time of year and then what? Find ways to harmonize them for you and your family.

Erin Clifford:

And in order to do that, you want to set boundaries limits, liberate us. So before you take on anything extra, make sure that you’re really thinking about what does your gut say? Is this making me anxious? Is this making me excited? If it’s making you overwhelmed, it’s probably a no because you really want to consider whether it aligns with your schedule, your values, your priorities, and we always need to remember that. A no doubt doesn’t mean a no forever because we can always say, Hey, I’d love to do this, but this isn’t a good time. Because when we say no, we say yes to ourselves, yes to our families, yes to our mental health. Speaking of which, you want to make sure that at this time of year you’re still practicing some intentional self-care, even if that’s just 10 minute pockets of self-care. And I always tell legal professionals, what’s your wellness jam?

Erin Clifford:

What is the one thing that you still need to keep in your routine when you’re busy? Maybe it’s exercise, but it’s just for 10 minutes. Maybe it’s healthy eating, sleeping, mindfulness, but make sure you’re doing something to give yourself that oxygen you need. Also stay connected to your community and social supports. They really increase our physical and mental wellness, our longevity, and it’s always good to ask for help and ask for support at this time of year when we need it. And finally, foster a positive mindset by celebrating year end wins. I always love to have my clients create a reverse resolutions list. So really thinking about all the great things you accomplished this year. If that’s too much, you can just think about what’s my favorite memory and share it with your family. It could be a fun project for your kids or your grandkids to do a little drawing of it. And finally, really focus on gratitude. What are the things that this time of year you’re grateful for? And how are some little ways you can get joy in? Whether it’s spending time with your loved ones, watching a fun holiday movie, celebrating a tradition, but don’t let work get in the way of having a good end of the year because you really want to set yourself up for success as we go into the new season.

Jim Reeder:

I love all of that, especially the reverse resolutions. One of the things that we do as a family when we have special events or we’re traveling is at the end of the trip flying home or whatever, we go around and we say, what was your highlight? I love reflecting on things that make you feel good, and I think that’s a great, great strategy along with the others. Erin, you’re marvelous. Thank you so much for your help. A reminder to be sure to subscribe to Litigation Radio on your favorite podcasting app so you don’t miss our next episode and spread the word. If you like the show, please help spread the word by sharing a link to this episode with a friend or through a post on social media and invite others to join the show and community. If you want to leave a review over at Apple Podcasts, it’s incredibly helpful. Even a quick rating over at Spotify podcasts is super helpful. Finally, I want to quickly thanks some folks who make this show possible. Thanks to Michelle Oberts, who is the producer on staff with the litigation section. Thanks. Also goes out to the co-chairs of the Litigation Section’s audio content committee, Haley Maple and Mike Steger. And thank you to the audio professionals from Legal Talk Network. And last but not least, thanks to you for listening. I’m Jim Reader. Talk to you later.

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