How to Retain Your Associates

Episode Notes

Transcript

Jim Reeder:

Hello everyone and welcome to Litigation Radio. I’m your host, Jim Reeder. I’m a lawyer practicing antitrust and commercial litigation in the Houston office of Jones Day. In addition to trying lawsuits, I’ve spent my entire career focused on helping young lawyers become great lawyers. On this show, we talk to the country’s top litigators, judges, in-house counsel and academics to discover best practices for developing careers, winning cases, getting more clients, and building a sustainable practice all while staying well and happy. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcasting app to make sure you never miss an episode. Litigation Radio is brought to you by the litigation section of the American Bar Association. It’s where I make my home in the a BA and I’m a huge proponent of the section of litigation. This podcast is just one example of the dozens of resources. The section of litigation provides litigators of all practice areas to help become successful trial lawyers for our clients. Learn more and become a member at amba ar.org/litigation. Today we’re talking about associate retention, how to keep young lawyers at your firm. I’m delighted to have as my guest,Ben Dachepalli a partner practicing construction litigation in the Tampa office of Bradley and someone who has successfully developed an approach to working with young lawyers that contributes to their retention. Welcome, Ben.

Ben Dachepalli:

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Jim Reeder:

So Ben, first off, it’s my belief that one of the things that helps contribute to our collective learning and civil discourse and understanding of each other is just getting to know each other. So I think it provides incredible insight into why each of us thinks the way we do. As such, I like to start off by having our guests do two things, share a bit of a thumbnail about your career and your career path and then share something about yourself with us, something about your background, your childhood and experience that has shaped who you are.

Ben Dachepalli:

Well, I think I’ll start with the second question first. As a first generation American, my parents moved over here from India or immigrated here in the 1960s. My dad’s job as an engineer took ’em all over the country and frankly all over the world. And so we had to get used to moving quite a bit and one of the most, I think impactful times in my life was when we moved to Australia from the United States where I was born and raised for most of the time and for a period of time in Memphis, Tennessee and then going to Australia. So effectively I went from y’all to Gade and it was funny moving to a different country, especially being an impressionable young teenager because you had all your friends and everything you knew and all the cultural americanisms that you grew up, the western habits that you grew up learning in the United States, then going to another country, it was very interesting.

It’s a lot different than when you just go and visit a country. When you live there, you get to really immerse yourself in the culture and the people and the Australian people were just so friendly and so amazing. It really gave me an appreciation for other cultures and other people and it certainly allowed me and forced me to make new friends, to learn how to make new friends, to learn how to interact with people from a different culture and a different background. And I think to this day that was one of those the most challenging but yet most rewarding experiences I’ve ever had because it did teach me so much. And even though I went back to the United States for college, it was an experience and friendships that I gained in Australia that I continue to have to this day and hold dear.

Jim Reeder:

And I’m sure it expanded your world essentially. I mean, we grow up and our world is just this tiny and then all of a sudden you’re facing a much bigger world.

Ben Dachepalli:

It really did and it gave me a love and an appreciation for traveling and something that I try to pass along to my kids and take them to other countries and other cultures and have them experience that because you’re right, we live in a bubble sometimes and it’s nice to break out of that bubble and see what the rest of the world has to offer. And it’s learning from those different perspectives that I think has really shaped who I am today.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, so then you get back to the United States, you go to law school. So tell us about your career path.

Ben Dachepalli:

Sure. I did my undergrad at Purdue University. I was an aviation major. I was in the flight program there, thought I wanted to be a pilot. And because I took this one international political science course, I ended up getting referred for an internship with an international lobbying firm in Washington dc And it was that experience that summer that I was there where I got to go to Capitol Hill and see how the sausage was made to see how bills were passed. It really kind of fascinated me about the practice of law and I used that fascination as a pivot in my academic career to take the LSAT and go to law school. And I eventually made my way to Colorado because I love skiing and I had to get out of the cornfields of Indiana, but I went to University of Denver’s College of Law and my first job out of law school was with a litigation firm that had a need in their construction group.

So the practice of construction law, I didn’t choose it, it really just chose me. But being in that group really sparked an interest in what construction law was all about and eventually when my parents did move back to the United States, I wanted to move closer to them. They retired in Charleston, South Carolina. So I started looking at opportunities in the southeast and landed in Tampa, Florida, working with a firm in their construction group and worked with a local firm in Tampa for almost 19 years until I made the move to Bradley to start their construction practice here in the state of Florida out of the Tampa office three years ago.

Jim Reeder:

It’s so interesting. I do believe that more often than not the practice area chooses us rather than us choosing the practice area. I suspect that your path is not undifferent from or different from a lot of people. You have been in Tampa, you’ve been practicing at a great firm and it turns out that you are in fact a great proponent of tools to keep young lawyers happy and retain them at law firms. I know you’re not the first senior lawyer to think about associate retention, however, I do think it’s rare to see considerable organized thought around this subject beyond just a hope that associates will stay reasonably happy while they’re churning out the work that most senior lawyers is main concern. Why is developing tools for associate retention rather than just free market thinking that the work should be enough? Why is that important?

Ben Dachepalli:

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of reasons why it’s so important, but first and foremost, I think the practice of law is very hard, but it’s also very rewarding and it becomes even more rewarding when you’re able to develop a culture that encourages lawyers to be part of a team, if you will. The reason you got to develop these tools for associate retention is to A, create that culture but also to maintain a continuity with the firm. I mean, it is very easy for a law firm hiring practices to become transactional and I just think that’s the wrong approach. You want to encourage associates to stay with the firm you want to build and develop that future generation of leaders of the firm. The future partners we tell associates all the time, or I like to tell ’em all the time when I’m interviewing them is I’m not interviewing my next associate, I’m interviewing my future partners.

And I think that’s the attitude and the symbolism of what you should have with respect to associate retention. And I think it’s important for, especially in our respective firms, Jim, we come from big law right now and in big law it’s easy to get jaded and cynical with associate retention and the generations have changed over time and I just think now more than ever in a hyper competitive marketplace, it’s really important to retain associates because you’re investing so much in them and you want them to invest in you and you want to create this future lifeblood of your firm and you’re not going to do that if there’s a revolving door of associates out of your firm. And it will say something about the culture of your firm too. And I think that’s why it’s so important to develop these tools.

Jim Reeder:

If you treat hiring as a transactional matter, retention will become transactional as well and you’re much more likely to lose people just on a transaction basis if that’s how you started with them. It seems my sort of take on it, and I think you’re exactly right, it’s good for the firm, it’s good for the individual, right? I mean it works both ways.

Ben Dachepalli:

That’s exactly right. I mean you want the associate, again, like I said earlier, because when you hire new associates, you invest a lot into them and you want them to feel that same sort of desire and reward in investing back into the firm. And you don’t get that if they leave in two years or three years or whatever that transactional timeframe might be. You want them to commit to you just like you’ve committed to them.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, so in your years of discovery, if you will, and identifying tools that are available to you to address associate retention, you have discovered something and you called it when we first talked the secret sauce. So what is the secret sauce?

Ben Dachepalli:

I don’t really know how secret of a sauce it is, but it is something that I have found has helped create the type of culture you want to engender that keeps associates from always looking at other places or having that grass is greener attitude with respect to moving to other firms. And what I would call it is the team-based approach to the practice of law. And I’m a big believer in operating as a team. I think you get better work product, the client’s needs are better met and there’s a lot of joy and working in a team-based environment, I mean it’s human nature. You want to be surrounded by people at least most people do. Most people like working in a team environment, especially when it’s with people that are rowing in the same direction and have similar goals and aspirations as you do. So I really believe in the team-based approach and there’s a lot of things that goes into that secret sauce, right?

There’s number one I would say is treating associates or communicating with them as peers. When you work on a team, no one person on a team should be more important than the other team members. They’re all valuable. And when you work on a team, everyone’s got a role, everyone’s got a job. And with the common goal when you talk to associates, what I have found is that they really appreciate it when you’re talking to them as a peer as opposed to a subordinate. I’m not saying that there aren’t going to be times where you have to give demands and orders out there, of course there’s going to be those opportunities or those not opportunities, but those times where it might be necessary. But by and large, I have found it incredibly successful to communicate with associates and they appreciate this and frankly will want to work harder for you when they know that their valued, when they know that they’re considered an equal member of the team and you just simply talk to them in that fashion.

Jim Reeder:

This is key because we talk about teamwork as if everybody understands what that means. And I think everybody embraces the idea, okay, we’re going to work in a team, there are five of us, so it’s got to be a team. But how you work your team and how you treat each other and how you communicate and the opportunities you provide them, that’s really the key to the teamwork concept.

Ben Dachepalli:

Absolutely. Just an example of this is what I like to do with a lot of my cases is I’m a big mind mapping person. I visually learn, so I like to go into a conference room and map out the case and it’s much better, it’s much more enjoyable, it’s much more effective when you can map out your case with your teammates. And so I will bring in my team, my associates, my paralegal, sometimes even my legal assistant and just walk them through all the issues and the tasks and the problems and the questions that we have to help solve. And getting their perspective is so valuable because they look at things and legal problems through a different lens than I do. And I think that’s one of the most valuable things that a client can get is when you can basically play four D chess and get different perspectives and angles on a problem that you yourself can’t just figure out on your own. And having those tactile opportunities to collaborate your team in a setting that gives them equal footing to you, brings it all home on this whole team-based approach or secret sauce that you termed it when it comes to associate retention. Because I think when an associate feels valued and they feel like they are a peer, it does bring additional value to them that beyond what all of us think about when we talk about associate retention,

Jim Reeder:

And you give them responsibility, they build trust, you have trust in them, they have trust in you, and we will talk about noneconomic value that is conveyed in that environment, which is important.

Ben Dachepalli:

And I do think that’s important, Jim. I mean this idea about giving them responsibility is really important. I think as part of this team-based approach, it’s finding out what it is that they enjoy and giving them those kinds of opportunities and allowing them to take ownership in those types of opportunities. And again, it just gives them, I think more ownership in any particular case or client matter. So providing them those opportunities and giving them responsibility will allow them to a build trust with you, but you also get trust in them and you’re giving them these opportunities to build trust. And again, that’s just a healthy relationship that you get to have with your associates in this team-based approach.

Jim Reeder:

Well, and the other thing that is evident from what you’re talking about is that these, we have to be adaptable, and I’m sure you’ve observed this, but this generations, and by that I mean young people, 24, 25 to their early thirties, they think about their career in a different way than you or I did. And so it’s not our job to change them, it’s our job to recognize what that is. I mean, I take it you’ve observed that

Ben Dachepalli:

Yes, there is no doubt that young lawyers today come from a completely different generation than when you and I grew up. And I think it’s very easy and cynical for lawyers of our generation to simply dismiss it and to say, you know what? We came up through the practice of law and learned a certain way by golly, you should too. Well, I just don’t think that’s how it works anymore. And I don’t think we should be akin to that kind of thinking. And the reason why is this generation of lawyers, I mean they have a much greater appreciation to work-life balance and quality of life than I think we did. And not to say that we don’t and we don’t value it, but I think this generation, they’ve come up through the digital age, they’ve gone through now on the precipice of AI and all these technological advances.

You’re in a situation where everyone lives in a bubble and you get to see what everyone is doing. And so this idea, this FOMO generation, this fear of missing out generation, they really appreciate their quality of life. And I think law firms today, partners today, they need to appreciate and understand that. So we as partners should do what we can to let them know that a quality of life exists. There is work-life balance when you can manage it and you need to try to help them achieve that because if you don’t, they may leave and they may not want to stay. And the desires and the goals that we had as young lawyers are frankly different than they are for this generation, and we need to appreciate and understand that.

Jim Reeder:

And it’s not a binary equation that is either you give them quality of life and therefore your work suffers or you don’t give them quality of life and therefore you get the best work out of them. I think that over time you’ve seen this, that you can have both, that you can try to adapt to their quality of life issues and at the same time get their best work in the end. It also probably contributes to ensuring that they don’t burn out.

Ben Dachepalli:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you think about how do you enhance an associate’s quality of life, there’s a few things you can look at. First and foremost, I think as senior lawyers, we need to appreciate the fact that young lawyers today have skills that frankly we don’t. Young lawyers today are way more technologically advanced than we are. Frankly, young lawyers today are better researchers than we are because they’ve grown up now with the tools that allow them to be more advanced researchers, and in my case, and then I suspect suspected many others, they’re frankly better writers. And so we have to let them lean into these skills. And when you let them lean into these skills that they’re really good at, I think again, that provides them more value and more reward and the practice of law, and you’re giving them frankly, more ownership in these tasks and these opportunities.

The other thing about quality of life, again, I think we live in a post COVID world where everyone kind of got used to this idea of working from home and we’re here in a video conference in a zoom setting where connectivity can happen over a camera and over a fiber cable. So we have to lean into that, allow associates to work from home if they can be productive from home. It’s almost like, at least in our situation, we prefer to have people in office. Don’t get me wrong, I think you build a culture and you have mentoring opportunities when you’re in office, but for those that need it, and for those that can be productive when they have it, giving them the flexibility to work from home and providing them the time off they need to prevent burnout, to go on vacations, to have that time away. All that is I think needed from a quality of life perspective.

Jim Reeder:

And it’s not an easy calculus obviously, because I think everybody is struggling. Anybody that’s got more than one employee is struggling with the situation of work from home. And we don’t need to turn this into a discussion about that, but I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to the notion of culture. Culture is important to this generation, young lawyers, and yet culture is not something necessarily that can be transferred via Zoom. And so I hear what you’re saying given what they need, but also let’s make sure that they’re in the office to get what they need as well.

Ben Dachepalli:

Yeah, that’s right. I mean, it’s easy to talk about associate retention in monetary terms. You can say, Hey, you pay them more, maybe they’ll stay and that’s great. But again, with respect to big law, there’s always going to be some law firm that might pay more. There’s always going to be some opportunity that might pay more. But I really sincerely believe if you talk to today’s young lawyer and young associate, they would trade a little bit more money for a better work-life balance or a better culture. And I would put an emphasis on the culture part because you could still have a situation where you’re working very hard and maybe there’s another firm or an opportunity that might pay you a little bit more money, but if you’re valued, if you’re part of a team and you’re getting opportunities that allow you to take ownership, that culture will outweigh or the monetary incentives. So I do think there’s a lot to be said about the non-monetary components to associate retention.

Jim Reeder:

So this generation often gets characterized, I think as lacking long-term vision that they glaze over. If you start talking about what life’s going to be five years from now or 10 years from now, which is different from when we were coming into the practice of law and we thought, okay, I’m going to have a 40 year career and I’m going to start here and I’m going to finish here, is that lack of long-term vision an impediment to retention? I think a lot of people say, oh yeah, no, if we can’t get them to see the world 10 years from now or 15 years from now and how they’re going to be a part of something bigger than them, then we’re going to have more difficulty retaining them. How do you deal with that? How do you overcome that?

Ben Dachepalli:

Yeah, I think it’s a recognition. Good question. I think it’s a recognition of the fact that young lawyers today don’t necessarily have the same goals and aspirations that our generation had. So recognizing that the goals of a young lawyer today might be different as I think step one, step two is I think really just again, communicating with them and letting them know what their opportunities are and checking in with them As a mentor to a few young lawyers in my group, I make it a point of sitting down with them and asking them like, Hey, what kind of assignments have you enjoyed doing in construction law? We’re fortunate enough where we can be both a transactional and litigation practice. I talk to young lawyers all the time asking them like, Hey, do you enjoy the transactional piece? If so, let’s get you more opportunities with that.

So they can start seeing, okay, this is the type of practice I want to build. Finding out and communicating with them early on in the process and even when they’re in the mid-level as a mid-level associate, starting to communicate with them about the type of practice they want to build and then helping them and giving them tools and opportunities to go build that, I think is very important. Another thing I would say, especially for associates that are good, right? A good associate, you ask any senior partner, the value of a good associate cannot be understated if they left. You can crater a senior partner’s entire practice. I like to start talking to associates early on, and if I see them as a future leader of this practice group or of my practice, I like to let them know right away that, Hey, this practice can be yours. I don’t plan on practicing for another 20 years and letting them know that you have this potential succession planning, I think would then even give them more incentive to want to stay and to know that there is certainty down the road if I stay at this firm and providing them, planting those seeds early on to let them know that we believe in succession planning at Bradley or we believe it, succession planning in our firm, I think can be a huge advantage to retaining talented associates early on in the process.

Jim Reeder:

Yeah, I think that what we don’t appreciate is amount of change that a 25 or 30-year-old individual has gone through in 30 years when we were kids, there was a certain amount of stability. Things kind of stayed the same and there were no huge changes. And then if you’ve lived through a life where you’ve had this kind of thing happening and where you’ve then had COVID and then you’ve had changes here and you begin to be overwhelmed by the uncertainty of the future, and I think you’re right, if you can provide some clarity to them as to what the future might look like, they might start thinking about the future more. Not that we need to change them or change their goals, but give them more information to be able to make those kinds of decisions.

Ben Dachepalli:

Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. Sometimes you need to pull the curtain back and let an associate know and just talk Turkey with them and let them know that there are opportunities beyond what you currently see right in front of you 10 years down the road. And letting them see what those various paths and options are can go a long way to removing that uncertainty that they might have about the future and whether this firm or this practice group is the right place for them.

Jim Reeder:

Fascinating stuff. The young lawyers at Bradley are fortunate to have you there. Hopefully some of the senior lawyers that are listening to us will take some of these tools and adapt to their young lawyers as well. They might even see a change. They might even see that their young associates become happier, more contented, and in fact stay with them longer. That’s the hope here. Ben. This has been awesome. Really have enjoyed, and unfortunately that’s all the time we have. But thank you for being here again. I want to thank our guest, Ben Dcha poll. Ben, you’ll have to come back.

Ben Dachepalli:

Thank you for having me, Jim. It was my pleasure and really enjoyed the conversation.

Jim Reeder:

Our thanks to litigation section, premier sponsor, Berkeley Research Group for sponsoring this podcast. BRG is an award-winning global consulting firm composed of world-class experts in accounting, damages analysis, economics, finance, intellectual property valuation, data analytics and statistics. And they work across industries, disciplines, and jurisdictions delivering clear perspectives that you can count on. Their guiding principle is intelligence that works. Learn [email protected]. And now it’s time for our quick tip from the a b ABA Litigation Section. I’m pleased to welcome back to the show, Lauren Williams, Lauren practices corporate law at Morgan Stanley in Columbia, South Carolina. Welcome, Lauren. What’s your quick tip?

Lauren Williams:

Thank you, Jim. I’m so glad to be here. So this week’s tip discusses managing up. As many of you know, law school does teach us how to brief cases, argue persuasively, maybe survive those daunting cold calls for one thing that I know that it doesn’t really teach us is how to navigate the people that we actually work with and how to really hone in on those soft skills. So today I want to talk about something that every young lawyer, every new lawyer needs to know, but rarely gets guidance on, and that’s managing up in the workplace. So I have a few tips to share, and the first one is understanding your supervisor style. So whether you’re in a law firm working with a partner, a senior associate, or if you’re in-house counsel and you’re working with an in-house client, your first job is to study how they work.

So do they want updates via email? Do they want you to just drop by their office? Do they want to be looped in every step of the process or do they just want the final product? Are they detail oriented? Are they big picture only? Those are several things that you can consider. And a pro tip is to just pay attention to how they work, their tone, their timing, and how they give feedback, how they communicate, matching their communication style builds that report and that trust and that trust is going to take you really far in your career and further than any perfect blue book citation that you can think of. Another tip is be a project manager, not just a task taker. And I know a lot of us don’t think about being project managers in our profession in a sense, but in the litigation world, things tend to move fast.

I know some cases can take years, but when you’re doing some of the stuff behind the scenes, when you’re having deadlines to meet and things that just come up, those things move kind of fast. And a lot of partners and senior associates or senior counsels or general counsels, they don’t want to chase you down for status updates. So it is important to just keep your own system, create those internal deadlines, and just stay a step ahead. Like for example, if you have a, let’s say a motion that’s due Friday, don’t wait until Thursday night to ask those questions. Maybe earlier in the week you want to just say, I’m just confirming that I need to send this draft by this date. Let me know if there’s anything else I should factor in. Keeping those lines of communication opens lets them know that they can trust you to manage these things and that you’re thinking like a litigator, you’re staying a step ahead and you’re not just a worker.

Be just waiting for instructions. You can be proactive. Another tip, don’t just bring them the problem. Bring the path forward. So if you’re confused or something just goes off track, do not panic. Don’t say I’m stuck. Instead come to them and say, Hey, I came across this issue and I see there are some possible solutions for how we can address this. Here’s what I’m thinking. Does this make sense? This gives you the mindset of a collaborator, not a burden, not you bring in a problem for them to solve. And litigation is all about problem solving. Under pressure, show them that you got the mindset to lead, to collaborate, and to not just follow instructions. Another tip is learn their priorities. You may be focused on getting a draft done or getting a file moved. Your supervisor may be focused on a client expectations, billing constraints, the relationship with the client, how opposing counsel is going to spend the argument.

Ask questions like, what’s the top concern for this? What’s the priority? Is there a tone that we want to emphasize in this filing? What’s the theme that we’re focused on? When you show that you care about the bigger picture, you’re more than just a entry level associate or even a junior level associate. You become essential. Make sure that you market yourself as being valuable and essential. And lastly, I just want to just give some encouragement because I know that this can be daunting to think about because these are things that we don’t learn off the gate when we graduate from law school. So managing up isn’t about people pleasing, it’s about being strategic and positioning yourself. When you learn how to anticipate, communicate, collaborate, you do earn trust and trust gets you better work. It gets you more visibility, more responsibility and faster growth. And you don’t want to just be good at law. You want to be great, you want to be great to work with. You want to have a great reputation, and that’s what keeps your reputation intact. And if you’re like a solo practitioner or even if you’re a legal consultant that works with other firms, it helps to build your brand. So that’s my litigation tip for this week. So go out there and practice with intention and purpose.

Jim Reeder:

Alright, thanks Lauren for that tip. A reminder to be sure and subscribe to Litigation Radio on your favorite podcasting app so you don’t miss our next episode and spread the word. If you like the show, please help spread the word by sharing a link to this episode with a friend or through a post on social media and invite others to join the show and community. If you want to leave a review over at Apple Podcasts, it’s incredibly helpful. Even a quick rating over at Spotify podcast would be great. All that is super helpful as well. Finally, I want to quickly thank some folks who make this show possible. Thanks, To michelle oberts who is the producer on staff with the litigation section. Thanks. Also, go out to the co-chairs of the Litigation Section’s audio content committee, Haley Maple and Mike Steger. Thank you to the audio professionals from Legal Talk Network. And last but not least, thanks to you for listening. I’m Jim Reader. Talk to you later.