The AI Software Landscape for Lawyers; AI in E-Discovery with Cat Casey

Episode Notes

Transcript

Speaker 1:

Its Legal Toolkit with Jared Correia, with guests Cat Casey. We take the opportunity to talk about cats and then Jared’s here to help keep you safe from one of the most serious natural hazards to life and property. Stick around to learn more, but first, your host Jared Correia.

Jared Correia:

It’s time for the Legal Toolkit podcast, which means your time is no longer your own, at least for the next 30 minutes or so, unless you listen to us on two times speed. In which case do I sound like a chipmunk? And yes, it’s still called the Legal Toolkit podcast, even though I don’t even know what a band saw is. I’m just a bass player. After all Army host Jared Correia, you’re stuck with me because Martin Mall was unavailable. He was occupied in crafting his monologue for the next episode of Fernwood Tonight, I’m the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, a business management and consulting service for attorneys and bar associations. Find us online@redcavelegal.com. I’m the COO of Gideon Software, an intake platform for law firms. Learn more and schedule a demo@gideonlegal.com. Now, before we get to our interview today, all about e-discovery with Cat Casey from Reveal, let’s talk about the AI software landscape for law firms as it currently exists.

Yes, I’m doing it again, but everybody keeps asking me about fucking ai. What am I supposed to do? Well, I guess what I’m going to do is another monologue on it. Okay, so let’s talk about AI software tools built for law firms. So one of the issues that law firms have with artificial intelligence is that you’ve got all these open source tools, which really anybody could use. Chat, GPT, Google, Gemini, Twitter’s got something called Rock, I guess X has something called gr. They’re terrible about names. There’s tons of these. Now the problem with that as a law firm is that you’re using a free version of a software like that. They will be using that data to train their tool because AI gets better as it gets trained on new data. So if you’re not paying for one of these tools, you’re a Guinea pig.

Basically. That’s how you pay for it. And as everybody has seen, and there’s all kinds of ethics opinions on this now, and court case is ongoing, not all kinds, but they’re coming out pretty rapidly. AI tools hallucinate, which means they make up answers if they don’t have sources to back up that answer. You see this with case law, AI just makes up case law and like a little kid who you ask like, Hey, it’s me and you in the house and the bathroom seems really dirty and I didn’t do that, and the kid’s like, well, neither did I AI the same way. Ask it something, it’ll lie to you. Ask it to confirm that it’s not lying, it’ll continue to lie. Part of the issue with that is access to data, which we’ll talk about in a second, but those are the two big things.

I think the data confidentiality piece and the relevant information piece that are scaring lawyers off of using these AI tools. So the cool thing is that AI is developing pretty rapidly, right? As we all know, and there are a lot of tools that lawyers use every day that are going to have AI features baked in, which are a little bit more secure than these other options. So we’re going to bring Cat Casey on in a second. She works at Reveal, which is an e-discovery company. E-Discovery softwares have been using AI forever. There’s something called Technology Assisted Review in E-discovery, and the whole thesis behind this is that there’s just so much data and information in these big e-discovery cases that no human could ever review that information. It’s just impossible. So you almost have to use technology. So these companies were forced to develop these features.

Another place where you see AI having been used in legal on a regular basis is legal research, right? Thomson Reuters just acquired Case Text in 2021 and their copilot tool, which was legal research assistant. Now that’s launched across their platform. Lexus has Lexus plus ai, fast Case and VL, which recently merged. They’ve got an AI sandbox where they’re helping you develop AI tools as a law firm. So that’s not a new thing. By the way, like these legal research tools like Fast Case had a machine learning tool that would allow them to identify bad law effectively instead of hiring an army of attorneys to do that, like companies like Lexus and West used to do. West and Lexus have been involved in this brief analysis war for a long time now where you can drop a brief into their system and it’ll show you the issues with that brief and help you correct it.

That’s not a new thing either. That’s AI based technology too, but what’s interesting is that AI features are coming to the softwares you’re using every day as a lawyer and you may not even be aware of it. So let’s start with productivity software, email calendar, document storage. 99% of law firms using Microsoft 365, hopefully not the old Microsoft Office. The rest are using Google Workspace. Some are using both. Microsoft is a huge investor in open ai, a company that built and manages chat, GPT. So if you have been drafting emails, if you have been drafting documents in Outlook or Word and in Gmail or Google Docs, you’ll recognize that there are these completion tools now where unless you turn it off because it’s a default, it’ll suggest words, phrases, completions of sentences for you based on how you write, and you may be like, wow, that’s weird.

I was literally just going to write that. Well, that’s because you’re being studied. So you just hit the tab and you move forward that drafting assistance is available right now. You’re probably going to be able to use that to draft entire emails, and these tools are going to be much more heavily embedded in these softwares moving forward. So Microsoft 365 has something called copilot, which is basically their AI overlay. So that’s doing drafting assistance like we talked about. You’ll be able to create an entire PowerPoint including AI generated images just from a description. You’ll be able to summarize calls and conversations and teams. Google Workspace has a similar product called Duet, which will add the writing assistance. It doesn’t do whole slide decks as of now, but it will do image generation for you and then you get meeting summaries in Google, me, Microsoft and Google have been of late merging in terms of the feature set they offer and the cost for those tools.

So this is not a surprise. Even the accounting software you use has AI features available, QuickBooks, every lawyer’s accounting platform for the most part. They’ve got something called Intuit Assist. There are other products in that family like Quicken for example, that’s going to be able to create and generate reports automatically. It’s going to help you do task automation. It’s going to help you build strategies, processes, workflows, and Zero, which is a competitor of QuickBooks. Those built by folks who left Intuit, the company that owns QuickBooks. They’ve got a generative AI tool, and I suspect they’ll be building more on the law practice management software front. You’re going to see every one of these companies have an AI overlay at some point. Clios announced something called Clio Duo, which I don’t believe has been released yet, but that should be doing things like workflow recommendations, case summaries, document summaries, billing automation, which I’m excited about, and a lot of these softwares will do help and support via ai, which I think might be really useful for getting attorneys to use some of these embedded features and softwares that I don’t know about.

File Vines got a number of different applications that they have available under this AI for law platform, which is currently accessible. They’ve got immigration forms, they’ve got document summaries, they have the ability to generate demand letters. A lot of their clients are personal injury attorneys. They’ve got custom research prompts and they’ve got a support tool as well, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. More and more of these companies are going to start to develop AI tools. Customer relationship management softwares have AI features as well. Salesforce has an overlay called Salesforce Einstein. HubSpot has something called HubSpot ai. They’re doing the same type of stuff, insights and reports, predictions, workflows, content creation, campaign building. Salesforce has a tool for next best action. Okay, you’ve done these seven things to try and onboard a client like here’s the next thing you should do. As recommended by AI Lawmatics a legal specific tool for CRM.

They have something called LM brackets ai, which is an email drafting and editing tool. Even task management software, which is not necessarily legal specific. The only one I’m aware of this couple. There’s dashboard legal, there’s legal boards, but the more mature products in that space for task management. Project management Notion has an AI product that’ll help you with workflow design, drafting assistance, table building task aid has something called Task eight ai, the same type of stuff. They’ll do some mind mappings, they’ll be able to help you create AI agents, lots of interesting stuff coming down the pipe. So why is that important? Well, a few reasons. One is you’ve got focus data sets, right? So the reason that some of these generic AI tools hallucinate is because they don’t necessarily have access to the case law database that’s available on Lexi or West. If they did, they would generate better results.

So you have more focused data sets and then you are going to be dumping sensitive or confidential data into these systems, but you actually already have a bunch of confidential data in these systems, and that’s under the protection of a service level agreement that you have with those vendors. So take a look at your service level agreements, see what they say about data treatment and how it’s managed and what security protocols these companies have in place. See if they’ve updated their service level agreements with respect to the use of ai. Feel comfortable with that. That’s a better space to be in than just using a free tool than anybody could use. I do think it’s helpful to have an AI use policy in your law firm, and if you don’t have anything like that right now, I think that’s something you should be looking at.

There are some templates that you can find online which might be helpful. So I think the way that this is going to go for law firms is that you’re going to see law firms instituting these AI usage policies for lawyers and staff, and you’re going to see more and more law firms just start relying on the softwares they’re already relying on, all of which are going to have AI overlays, integrations and tools available to them, and that’s going to be a much safer environment than exists right now. Okay, we did it. Another AI topic. Maybe more to come or maybe at some point. I actually get sick of this now before we talk with Cat Casey of Reveal about eDiscovery and yes, a little bit about ai. Let’s hear a little something, something from our sponsors. Then we’ll get into a rump roast that’s only for Curious Cats. Okay, everybody, let’s get to the meat in the middle of this podcasting Sandwich’s, our interview section. Today’s meat is Chicken Thighs, which is the grossest part of the chicken. Don’t at me. It absolutely is. As I said, it’s time to interview our guest today we have for your listening pleasure on the one and only Legal Toolkit podcast. It’s the one and only Cat Casey, the chief Growth Officer at Reveal Cat. How are you doing?

Cat Casey:

I don’t know if I’ve ever been called Chicken Thighs before, but I think it’s high up on my list of introductions.

Jared Correia:

I wasn’t technically calling you chicken thighs. I hate chicken thighs, but are you familiar with the chicken thigh thing?

Cat Casey:

I’m not a fan of them because I was vegan for 13 years and there’s too much bone and stuff in it. Not my jam

Jared Correia:

It’s really disgusting. So I’m glad we’re on the same page about that. Thanks for coming on. You are at Reveal, an eDiscovery company. So how many mergers and acquisitions did it take to get here? 30, 40. I will tell you, I’ve had trouble following the staggering pace in E. It’s like a million new companies. What’s going on? Help me.

Cat Casey:

You know what? I think it’s because we built the airplane when we were flying and some had great wings, some had a great propeller, some had a great engine, but as the industry got more robust, we’re like, Hey, this is kind of a Frankenstein with limbs all over the place. Let’s start bringing this tech together to solve the whole problem. Right? I mean, my company, I think we’re on number 13. We did last year. It was kind of a whirlwind

Jared Correia:

That was close.

Cat Casey:

It kind of makes sense. Everything’s moving so fast in the mathematics of buy, build, partner build takes too long, partner leaves you susceptible to someone else buying it. So people are just gobbling up tech to try to have bigger, better AI powered solutions.

Jared Correia:

So you are building the plane as you fly. I think that’s the strategy at Boeing. Thanks. I’ll be here all week. Do you think the pace of acquisition stuff slows down now or has it already? Is there even more to buy at this point?

Cat Casey:

I think it shifts. I’m going to say something actually pretty divisive. I think eDiscovery

Jared Correia:

Good. We love that

Cat Casey:

Period. I think that the silo of eDiscovery of just tech for eDiscovery two years from now, three years from now, it’s going to go to the wayside. It’s really just extracting value and mitigating risk with data. It’s data solutions for legal, and so I don’t think the pace slows, but you’re running out of rich targets just that do e-discovery. I think it shifts compliance, virtual data rooms, maybe a contract analytic company pairing up with an eDiscovery company, but I think it maybe goes to more enterprise, big players in tech generally the Microsoft Googles of the world. Interesting. It’s broader than just eDiscovery because even the roles I think are changing. I think I was talking with Jesse Torres from McDermott will yesterday. I think that roles like eDiscovery director may not be a role five years from now because it’s going to be something else. Data risk manager or data data leader, I mean that’s like what Scott Millner has. I think that’s what I think the next chapter looks like.

Jared Correia:

I hardly know anything about eDiscovery, so talk to me like I’m a 2-year-old who knows nothing about e-discovery. Why is that divisive?

Cat Casey:

Well, everyone loves their little silo. Everyone thinks what they do is so important, and it is. But it was born in 2006. People were like, email, that’s not discoverable. Who cares? And then as more of how we communicated, interacted, became data, data, data, slack, ephemeral message, social media, text, email. If you want to know what anyone’s doing, you’ve got to follow that digital footprint. Discover is all about finding the evidence, but the evidence isn’t the only risk, right? Maybe you want to preempt the risk so you don’t have the big Litigation. Maybe you don’t want to have a second request down the road by doing better due diligence. It kind of all commingles and so you start looking at, I’m looking for risk and value in data, and that’s a bigger picture than just Litigation preparedness and post-incident investigation, which is the bread and butter of what traditionally has been any discovery.

Jared Correia:

So wait, is email discoverable? No, I’m just kidding. I know. Okay. I was on your LinkedIn profile today, and this is a first for me. You describe yourself as an AI batty.

Cat Casey:

Oh yeah.

Jared Correia:

What does an AI batty do? Exactly? You’re the only one I know.

Cat Casey:

Well, there’s actually a tribe of us. There’s a lot.

Jared Correia:

Oh really? I hope this is

Cat Casey:

True. That’s the thing. It’s actually an initiative. I started along with Cassie Burns and Ashley Picker Juin. We realized when we’re out there, I write, I speak, I talk a lot. That’s why half the time when you talk to me, I have no voice.

Jared Correia:

This is true.

Cat Casey:

I’m hearing the same voices over and over again and there’s this whole cohort in particular of ladies that are really sharp, know their stuff when it comes to AI but aren’t getting platformed. And so we held the first meet up with 40 women and we’re just like, Hey, we’re going to cross pollinate. If I had 30 panels I’m putting together at Legal Week, I want to get some names. If I’ve got a story I’m going to write about kind of elevating people. So AI Bodies is actually a female consortium of ai. People that want to be out there speaking and making sure we don’t go the way other industries do where it’s an echo chamber of just the same four or five people talking over and over again. So boom,

Jared Correia:

Boring, middle aged white dudes like myself

Cat Casey:

Or just me. There’s people like me where I’m out there so much, I’m not boring. I am middle aged and I’m not a white dude, but it’s about just more voices. It can kind of be like if you go to 50 plus conferences a year like I do, it’s like, oh, I’ve heard this panel. Oh, I’ve heard this. Five people say this exact same thing. I’m bored. I want to hear new voices. Let’s get interesting. Let’s mix it up.

Jared Correia:

So if people are listening and they’re putting on conferences and they want to access an AI batty for a panel, what’s the play? Talk to you? Is there a website?

Cat Casey:

We’re setting the website now. We’ve got a LinkedIn group that folks that want to join can join in. We’re building out more stuff now. Like I said, we just kind of kicked it off right before Legal week, which was eight weeks ago. I I think it’s the ai badies ai, but it’s not published yet. It’s going to be published when I’m convinced that it looks good enough to go primetime probably in the next month or so.

Jared Correia:

Alright everybody. So keep Googling that until it actually appears it got to be AI baddies ai. There’s no other way to do it. I know, I

Cat Casey:

Know.

Jared Correia:

Alright, let’s jump into the eDiscovery stuff a little bit more. So you hear the term tech assisted review in relation to eDiscovery. I see that on all the eDiscovery websites, but it’s not the whole thing. Now, is anyone not doing tech assisted eDiscovery or am I missing something?

Cat Casey:

So the adoption rate of machine learning and AI for eDiscovery, so algorithms to help connect the dots and find evidence faster was painfully slow. The first case was in oh 6 0 7 8 9 round to Silver Moore. Painfully slow the last 18 months. People are much more curious and starting to adopt it, but it’s definitely less than 50% of cases are leveraging any sort of AI and machine learning. I think in the next,

Jared Correia:

It seems crazy to me. Sorry, go ahead.

Cat Casey:

Same. No, a hundred percent. I think that with AI going mainstream with the generative AI revolution, I mean there’s a South Park episode about it. After all talk about mainstream, I think you’re going to have to start using tech or clients are going to be like WTF Man if Carman’s talking about it, why is my AMP 100 lawyer not talking about it? And technology assisted review, that’s just really reinforcement learning. So humans giving the algorithm a pattern to start surfacing more similar information so you can review it faster. There’s dozens of other cool tech, there’s visualizations, there’s social network analysis, who’s talking to who with what frequency. There’s even generative ai. You can literally type in like Chay bt, we have a thing called Ask and it will go through all the information and answer it like Chay bt, and then push you to all these different links. So there’s a lot of different flavors of AI that you can use. I like to say it’s a spectrum. You don’t have to go all in all the way to the tip of the spear, but start dipping your toe in because if you’re not using even little baby steps, the robots aren’t going to eat your lunch, but Bob in the office next to you using tech is going to go so much faster that your clients are going to be like, yeah, you’re so last quarter.

Jared Correia:

I like how you just refer to AI as sort of Baskin Robbins. I like that. I tried that. I can get with that. Okay. I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but I’m going to. What do you think is the coolest e-discovery feature in software right now? Just one.

Cat Casey:

I’m all about the visuals honestly, and it’s

Jared Correia:

Not okay. I like that vibe with that.

Cat Casey:

I’m here for the old school cluster wheel and the social communication map because it is powerful AI that’s approachable to a non technologist. Most lawyers don’t go to law school to play around in relational databases. I know I didn’t, right? But an image that you can interact with that can help you start just getting rid of the noise. I mean, I think the most compelling, the sexy sexiest, that’s all the generative AI stuff, but I think where the magic happens is when the generative AI then pushes you right into those visuals. So then it’s Google easy pictures. I mean it’s so easy. A lawyer would use it.

Jared Correia:

I got to tell you, it’s funny, I talked to a number of lawyers about ai, not as many as you, I’m sure, and a lot of folks I talked to, they haven’t used it a ton. And interestingly, that’s one of the things they talk about, which is like, what are the visualizations? Can I do timelines? Can I do communication maps? That kind of thing. So I think that’s right in line with sort of a new use case.

Cat Casey:

It’s sort of how you think about it. It’s you’re going to have first, second, third, fourth year associates and let’s support directors in the tech. But then when you’re the partner and you’re doing case strategy, I want to picture that I can quickly interpret and synthesize, not have to scroll through lines of what looks like a spreadsheet from hell. And so I think that the visual, that’s what helps kind of cut down the noise for a lot of the lawyers who, again, they’re brilliant in their area of expertise. They’re the best rainmaker in antitrust, but they’re not a tech-minded person. So it’s uncomfortable in the more database stuff. The pictures bridge that gap.

Jared Correia:

So we’re at this point in time where the AI revolution, I forget how you termed it. You may have called it a revolution. Don’t let me put words in your mouth though. It’s happening though. Things are going down. What should people be looking at in the future of AI in e-discovery? What’s coming next? It’s not out right now that you can talk about without getting in trouble.

Cat Casey:

I mean, I think part of it’s the generative AI stuff, so being able to summarize, be able to generate content, being able to maybe eliminate portions of first pass review. But it’s not only that. It’s that in concert with all the other great tech that’s going to bring people back full circle to what discovery was supposed to be. I’m looking at the most critical facts of the who, how to build a fact driven case strategy. It turned into this crazy exercise of categorizing and tagging and organizing trillions of, well, not trillions, tens of millions of documents and emails and texts and boom, boom, boom. It’s going to bring us back full circle to where you can work quickly with the AI to get to that meet and do your strategy, build it out and start answering those questions. Build out the narrative because what are lawyers? Lawyers are storytellers not in the deceptive way, as in we’re recreating journalists. We’re getting to just the facts, ma’am. Right? It’s going to make us able to do that more quickly and get us back to what we went to law school for. Maybe it’s not a Perry Mason moment, but it’s a lot more fun than privilege relevant issue one, issue two, which is what they have to do every single document right now.

Jared Correia:

Is there something that’s less fun than privilege that I’m not aware of? Not my idea of a good time. Alright.

Cat Casey:

Camping back in the day when it was actually a stamp was pretty bad. Read all the paper cuts pretty bad. But yeah, no, there are very few

Jared Correia:

Things. Paper. I haven’t gotten to paper cut in a long time. It’s been kind of nice. Let’s explore the studio space a little bit. You’re on the New York State bars AI task force, right? How’s that going? A lot of squabbling, a lot of yapping or is stuff actually happening?

Cat Casey:

Stuff is actually happening. Vivian, who’s kind of the chair is very organized and we pulled together this report that’s like the state of the universe, the risk rewards, practical guidance, and it was a lot more organized than I expected it to be, and I think it’s because we’re all learning in parallel. So you didn’t necessarily have people that wanted to be on a soapbox. It was much more let’s research synthesize and then kind of move forward together. And we had a nice mix of a self-proclaimed tralo diet, which I had to Google to verify I was getting it right, but it’s basically a Luddite plus caveman.

Jared Correia:

Oh yeah.

Cat Casey:

Beautiful word.

Jared Correia:

Like the caveman lawyer, I would describe him as potentially aite. Yeah,

Cat Casey:

So some self-proclaimed alite to folks like Ron Hedges and I who are talking about GI every week. And so it was nice to sort of have both ends of the spectrum to be technical enough to be useful, but approachable enough that someone that is coming along for this renaissance now to kind of get up to speed. And so it’s actually, I think really impactful.

Jared Correia:

That’s good. Do you have a sense of when you’ll be releasing something or is that still TBD?

Cat Casey:

Pretty soon. Pretty soon. Okay.

Jared Correia:

Alright everybody watch out for that. Alright, we talked about you’re brave because you joined Task forces. I do. You go out into the world and attend conferences. We talked about this a little bit in the pre-show, like I don’t like going to conferences and one of the reasons I don’t like going to conferences is because people get sloppy. I feel like, Hey, I’m outside of my zip code and now I can do literally whatever the fuck I want. So I guess there was this crazy incident at Legal Week recently where that

Cat Casey:

Were eight or 10 crazy incidents. Yeah,

Jared Correia:

Really? Okay, so what is the deal with all that stuff? Because the one I heard about was some guy was being inappropriate with this woman and then he pulled a knife on somebody. That’s just insane. So I know you were commenting on this. How do we shut this down? It’s just ridiculous.

Cat Casey:

My thought is hold them accountable. That guy was actually at my company and we fired him in eight. I heard that it’s an important thing. You’re not going to stop every crazy person. Legal Week had 7,000 people. It’s in the middle of Manhattan.

Jared Correia:

For those who haven’t been. It is like a massive, massive event.

Cat Casey:

But step one, and I’m actually, I’m part of Women Discoveries operations Safe Spaces now and Flash, so Safe Spaces is about building proactive change for conferences to make ’em a little safer, less sloppy Splash was about vendors saying, Hey, we’re going to enforce all of our policies, but the reality is bad things may happen, but if nine bad things happen and only one person got fired, that’s where the problem is. People aren’t being held accountable and if they think it’s a hall pass and Hey, my boss won’t fire me, no one’s going to know what happens in New York stays in New York. That’s where the problem happens. If it’s, Hey, no, I’m still doing work stuff and I still have to be a grownup. That’s where you start making change. I think also for a lot of us, I’ve been going to conferences since I was 23, I think I’ve been a frog and a frying pan. I thought things were better and they’re just, I think I just kind of learned to tune it out, and so it was a good wake up call for me. Like, no, I’ve got to pay attention more. I go to so many, I always have a herd of people around me, but what if it’s someone’s first year? So making

Jared Correia:

Sure, yeah, right, and they’re isolated.

Cat Casey:

Yeah, so I think it was good for all of us to kind of mobilize and say, let’s be pragmatic. I mean, I’m on with Marla Crawford over at Simplify, Alicia Howley at Canal Gates, Beth Finkel, head of women in E, and we’re trying to really just like, let’s do something to make this better. I started a charity about this six years ago called the Fearless Network about the Me Too stuff because there was the same stuff going on and I’m kind of frustrated. We’re still talking about it, so let’s start doing stuff to move the needle because we’re professionals, we’re fun, but we also have to take care of this whole great industry.

Jared Correia:

Yeah, you’re professionals say, yeah, a few whiskey sours in you. So the flash thing that you’re working on, how can people find out more about the flash, right? Did I say flash? Did I say that

Cat Casey:

Right? Flash like water.

Jared Correia:

Oh, splash. Splash. Okay. So where do

Cat Casey:

Service providers and legal against sexual harassment? I think it’s so that Ask if you work at a legal service company, ask your company if they took the pledge. It’s more of an open admission that hey, we are going to hold these people accountable. The other thing is the women in eDiscovery, there’s a task force called Operation Safe Spaces. We just launched it on National International Women’s Day two weeks ago. We’re building out the charter, but the aim is to by clock and by some of these upcoming really quick conferences to just have some guidance, like an anonymous reporting or a buddy system, or hey, maybe don’t have unlimited drinks at 18 bars until 5:00 AM Right? Guidance, like common sense stuff, but things that the conferences should be doing. And then we as sponsors should be demanding and clients attending should be demanding. And so my hope is we move the needle a little bit. I mean, legal Week, unfortunately was where all this happened, but they already have an anonymous reporting company in there. They’ve redone their T’s and C’s and their employee guidelines, and so at least we’re seeing some change, which we didn’t see five, six years ago.

Jared Correia:

If folks want more information about that stuff,

Cat Casey:

Which reach they go, reach out to me, go to Women in eDiscovery, and I would email your local chapter and ask them about Operation Safe Spaces. I’m happy to answer question. Beth Finkel, Alicia Howley, Blash, Marla Crawford at Simplify. C-I-M-P-L-I-F-I is running Point on that. But honestly, if you’re a legal service vendor, ask them if they’ve taken the pledge and then talk with people. If you have dealt with this, if you want to kind of work on moving forward, I’m a resource. I’ve been an advocate for folks dealing with this for as long as they’ve been talking about ai, because we’re professionals going to work. We shouldn’t have to deal with the bs.

Jared Correia:

Okay, let’s do a pallet cleanser to finish things off. I

Cat Casey:

Like it. I like it.

Jared Correia:

You’re a board member of this cool nonprofit called Law Rocks. Law Rocks Exclamation point. Yes. Can we talk about that a little bit?

Cat Casey:

So Law Rocks is a global consortium of lawyers that are rock stars. We

Jared Correia:

Hold Aren’t all lawyers rock stars? No, no, I’m, no, I digress. No, they’re in fact not.

Cat Casey:

We’re literal rock stars. And so we go around the world and we raise money for, each band has a charity they’re sponsoring, and we go to the most iconic venues in a city. So Whiskey a Go-go in la, the Gramercy Club, you name it. A place that a rocker band would want to play at. We host these events. This past weekend we raised $411,000 in 48 hours for 14 charities. And we’re Rinse, repeat, we’re doing San Fran, I think on the second. We’re doing Chicago May 16th. We do, I think 15 shows a year and it’s really cool. The managing partner, Perkins Ey was the head of one of the bands. We had people from Latham, from the General Counsel of Grindr, you name it. Cool. People are on stage and they do a battle of the bands to take home a platinum

Jared Correia:

Record. I was going to say, please God, let this be a battle of bands. It is really good. Amazing. So the

Cat Casey:

Funny thing is, joy Morale told me about this four years ago and I was like, can I not go? And I went the first night and I loved it so much. I was supposed to be flying out the next morning to go to a Women at e Discovery concert. I canceled my flight, I changed it. I stayed a second day. I convinced them to put me on the board and then I road trip down with Joy to the Women at eDiscovery conference. It’s so cool. If you haven’t been, go to the website, I think la rocks global.org, I think. I dunno, put it in the chat or put it in the description. Get me honest. But it’s 20 shows, global, domestic, and it’s just really fun.

Jared Correia:

Are you getting up there and playing? Oh

Cat Casey:

God no.

Jared Correia:

Oh, I was going to say, you’re not doing the cowbell. You always use more cowbell.

Cat Casey:

Actually, I’m aiming to, if there are rock stars that are in legal, so I only need two legal people. If there’s someone that wants to join a band, and all I need to do is I want to play anything percussive like a tambourine, a cowbell and a triangle, maybe Moroccan. If that was all I did, that would be my rockstar dream come true. Otherwise, I’m just like the number one hype girl.

Jared Correia:

You heard it Here, come join this band.

Cat Casey:

I know

Jared Correia:

Cat, that flew by. That was really fun. Thank you for coming

Cat Casey:

On. Awesome. Yeah, no, no, for sure.

Jared Correia:

Alright, will you stick around for one last segment, even though you have no idea what we’re going to talk about? Of

Cat Casey:

Course.

Jared Correia:

Okay. Alright. We’ll take one final sponsor break so you can hear more about what our sponsor companies can do for you with their latest service offerings. And stay tuned. As always. For the Rump Roast, it’s even more supple than the Roast Beast. Welcome back everybody. That’s right. We’re at the rear end of the Legal Toolkit podcast. We call it the Rump Roast. It’s a grab bag of short form topics. All of my choosing. Why do I get to pick? Because I’m the host. Alright, this is pretty apropos Cat, because we were just talking about music. So I want to do a little music game with you. Let’s talk about cats. I’m going to read some song lyrics

Cat Casey:

To you. Oh, I’m so bad at

Jared Correia:

This because I can’t sink. And the intention is that you’ll be bad at it. We just like to torture people.

Cat Casey:

I mean, from Rump Roast, I’m going to be the grumpiest of Roast.

Jared Correia:

Well, it’s a high bar. I hope so. So I’m going to read song lyrics and I’m going to try and make ’em not super hard because I can’t think. Each of these songs includes the word cat somewhere in it. And it’s simply your job to fill in the blanks. I have hints for you if you need them, and let’s say we’re doing this in honor of Law Rocks. Go check it out. Exclamation point, LA Rocks, exclamation point. I got five of these for you. They’ll go quick. Are you ready? Are you ready?

Cat Casey:

Go.

Jared Correia:

Sweet. Like Honey Karma is a cat purring in my lap. It loves me flexing like a blank.

Cat Casey:

Give me a hint. I’m thinking of pour some sugar on me and that’s not it at all.

Jared Correia:

Oh, that’s the wrong direction. Okay, here’s your hint. The singer of this song is in her eras era.

Cat Casey:

Oh, I won’t know that at all. I am not a Swiftie.

Jared Correia:

You’re not a Swiftie.

Cat Casey:

I’m a Hero.

Jared Correia:

I can’t believe I had you on the podcast then.

Cat Casey:

I’m a Metallica rock and roll gal. If it’s Swiftie stuff, I’m ruined.

Jared Correia:

Yeah, this is going to be rough for you. Oh

Cat Casey:

No.

Jared Correia:

Karma is a cat flexing like a goddamn acrobat from the Taylor Swift song Karma.

Cat Casey:

It’s only going to get worse from here.

Jared Correia:

We may be looking at Oh for five here, but we’re going to proceed. We’re going to proceed on maybe you know this one. I know this is an older song.

Cat Casey:

Hey, now I’m only barely middle aged. It’s same according to Webster. Middle Age starts at 35, which did crush my soul a little bit. So barely.

Jared Correia:

That is terrible. I felt like we were vibing before we had the same pop culture references. So maybe you know this one, Cast in the Cradle and the Silver Spoon, little Boy Blue and the Man in the Moon when you coming home, dad, blank blank. I have a hint as well if you need

Cat Casey:

It. Yeah, because I only remember the first two parts of that.

Jared Correia:

Yes. The next part is tough. So this singer of this song died in a car accident on the Long Island Expressway while on his way to a benefit concert. And I’m going to just give you the guy’s name to help you out. Harry Chapin. You know him.

Cat Casey:

I know the song, but I’m bad at this. So I’m over for two.

Jared Correia:

When are you coming home, dad? I dunno. When Cast in the Cradle, Harry Chapin, one of the saddest songs out there.

Cat Casey:

I know.

Jared Correia:

All right. Oh, for two. But we got time. We can still resurrect us mos

Cat Casey:

As the window, honestly. So

Jared Correia:

I don’t have high hopes. But you should just keep getting them wrong intentionally so your metal friends won’t make fun of you. I know. Here we go. Here’s another one. Here’s another one. We’re back in the seventies.

Cat Casey:

Oh Lord.

Jared Correia:

They said Get back Honky Cat. Better get back to the woods. Well, I quit those days and blank hint.

Cat Casey:

Sure.

Jared Correia:

I’m just going to give you the singer because I don’t think the are helping.

Cat Casey:

No.

Jared Correia:

Elton John. Elton John. Get back Honky Catt to

Cat Casey:

Just for the name of the musician or the title or anything. I’m not going to get any of it.

Jared Correia:

Yeah. So you know what? I’m just going to walk this back and give it to you. Honky Catt Honky is the name of the song. I love it. Elton John. Well, I put those days in my redneck ways. We’re continuing on the journey of oh five to make all Cast music friends proud of her. This is one you might get because this is like a pop culture reference. Okay. They won’t take you to the vet. You’re obviously not their favorite pet. Smelly cat. Smelly cat. What’s the next line?

Cat Casey:

Isn’t it whoa or something?

Jared Correia:

No,

Cat Casey:

I know it’s Phoebe. I don’t remember the word Phoebe

Jared Correia:

From friends.

Cat Casey:

Got one piece. A 0.5. I’m 0.5 for five.

Jared Correia:

It’s not your fault Smelly cat.

Cat Casey:

Gotcha, gotcha.

Jared Correia:

There’s no way you’re going to get this last one, but I’m just going to read it for fun. I love it. I love

Cat Casey:

It.

Jared Correia:

By the blue tiled walls near the market stalls. There’s a blank these days. She says, I feel my life just like a river running through the year of the cat. Do you know the song The Year of the Cat? Are you familiar with that one?

Cat Casey:

0%.

Jared Correia:

Okay. 0%. You’ve never heard that song before?

Cat Casey:

If I heard it, I probably would pick up on it, but I’m not,

Jared Correia:

I wish we could do these without incurring massive fees from the royalties. This would make this a lot easier. Al Stewart, you’re the cat. The missing line is Hidden Door. She leads you to So interesting fact about Al Stewart. He wrote a song about Warren Harding the president. Yeah,

Cat Casey:

The first pop icon. Yeah.

Jared Correia:

Probably a real loser. They never would’ve let him be part of Pantera

Cat Casey:

Not dime bag. No, he’s not. Doesn’t have the good goatee going on.

Jared Correia:

I feel like this is a triumph for you. Honestly.

Cat Casey:

It’s Trium 0.5 for five. To be fair, several of the songs did come out before I was born.

Jared Correia:

Yes, exactly. And I will say me too as well, just to let everybody know I’m not 85 years old. So let me ask you before we finish out here, what is your favorite band as a metalhead? Metallica. Metallica best song from Metallica Best album. Can you hit me up?

Cat Casey:

Best Black album? A hundred percent. I like one. I like Fade to Black. I like Enter Sandman. Basically anything before Load and Reload is a good album. Probably The Lightning is pretty decent. So if you asked me Metallica facts, I would’ve been five for five.

Jared Correia:

Come back on, we’ll do Metallica facts next time. Or maybe you could quiz me about Metallica facts and I will have no idea what’s happening. This was fun. You were a good sport as always.

Cat Casey:

My pleasure.

Jared Correia:

Thanks for covering all this ground. Yeah, we’ll have you come on back. And in the meantime, people should look for your conferences, I think.

Cat Casey:

Right? For people that are wearing very obnoxiously, sequined clothing, that usually is, if I look a little bit like I could be, I don’t know, doing Broadway because of a full sequence suit that is cat. It’s like I want to refract light at you. Maybe cause a seizure. That’s techno cat. That’s the vibe I give.

Jared Correia:

Okay. I think you should be easy to find then. Alright. Thanks for coming on and we’ll talk to you next time. Everybody. If you want to find out more about Cat Casey and her work at Reveal visit reveal data.com. That’s R-E-V-E-A-L-D-A-T a.com. Reveal data.com. Now, for those of you listening and just sizzling in Bacon, Texas, we’ve got a Spotify playlist covering cat songs, which at this point should probably be no surprise as we work thematically here at the Legal Toolkit. There’s a method to our madness. Sadly, I’ve run out of time today to talk about the physics behind a slab avalanche, but perhaps we can save the conversation for another time. Assuming you’re not standing underneath an oncoming slab avalanche right now. This is Jared Correia reminding you that you can milk anything with nipples.

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