The Robot “Takeover”; Law Firm Productivity; and “Balls Deep”

Episode Notes

Transcript

Jared Correia: I’d like to take a moment to thank my mom for listening to every episode. Now, my mom is the real reason you’re listening to this show right now but the sponsors have a little something to do with it as well. So I’d like to thank our sponsors too. Clio, Alert Communications, Scorpion, TimeSolv.

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[Music]

Male: It’s a Legal Toolkit with Jared Correia! With guest, Mat Rotenberg, Around the Balls Deep. And then a three-hour podathon benefitting impoverished podcast hosts. We’re giving away tote bags people. But first, your host Jared Correia!

Jared Correia: Yes. It’s the Legal Toolkit podcast ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps surpassingly, no actual tools are involved in the making of this show. Well, except for me. That’s right. I’m your host Jared Correia. Bill Collin was unavailable so you’re stuck with me. I’m the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting and business management consulting service for attorneys. Find us online at www.redcavelegal.com. I’m the COO of Gideon Software, Inc. We built chatbots so law firms can convert more leads. You can find out more about Gideon at www.gideon.legal.

Before we get to our interview today with Mat Rotenberg of Dashboard legal, I want to take a moment to talk about the inevitable robot apocalypse. If you follow pop culture over the last 70 years or so, you’re likely familiar with the concept of The Robot AI Takeover. I mean it was a plot for a freaking kid’s movie on Netflix last month. That was the Mitchells v. The Machines on Netflix and I’m not going to lie, it was fucking awesome. And frankly, I’m not even sure if that’s jumping the shark or simply the reaching of a saturation point. In any event, The Robot Takeover thing represents a pretty long catalog in TVs and movies.

In Avengers: Age of Ultron, Tony Stark, Iron Man for those of you who don’t know, creates an AI then wait for it and goes rogue. Shocking, I know. And becomes the villainess robot. Well, they’re actually robot hosts collectively named Ultron hence the title of the movie. In west world, there’s a book and a movie and a TV show and there’s probably going to be another movie at some point as well. The hosts, they’re called hosts, which are AI embodied in individual robots and they don’t get around as much as Ultron does, hey stick to one body, eventually go rogue as well. Shocker. And kill all the humans who have of course abused them for years and years and years.

Spoiler alert, in the Matrix, we are actually all living in a simulation developed through AI but fortunately, Keanu Reeves is there to save us just like he did in Bill and Ted 1, 2, and 3, Point Break, Speed, Other Replacements, John Wick and most of all, Toy Story 4. In her, a Spike Jonze movie, the great Joaquin Phoenix, yes, he’s one of my favorite actors ever, falls in love with an AI. In his defense, he’s actually Scarlett Johansson so there’s that. I guess that was not so bad.

But if you look at pretty much every third episode of Black Mirror, it’s pretty bad especially Metal Head. If you’ve seen that one, that’s the one with the creepy robot dog that looks like the one that Boston Dynamics produced in real life. If you want some nightmare feel, watch that video on YouTube.

Now, I do talk to lawyers who believe this fiction in a related genre. You know the game, the one where robots take over for all the lawyers. You’ve heard it before. But if you’re an attorney listening to this podcast and that’s what you’re worried about, don’t be. You’ve got lots of more realistic shit to worry about like the deregulation of law practice and large corporations coming after your clients directly. I’ll save that one for later.

Now, if you’re a lawyer, the robots are actually on your side. This is less than Ultron situation and more of a Wall-E situation. You remember Wiley, the Pixar movie everybody thinks is amazing but it’s actually kind of shitty? That’s right, I said it. I’m the guy who hates Wall-E.

(00:05:00)

In Wall-E, there’s this cute little robot and it goes around and it picks up everybody’s trash. He doesn’t matter with anybody. He has no grand purpose. He’s like a sentient little garbage truck. And best of all, all he wants is to help us humans. That’s more like that type of AI you’ll see in having your law practice. What Wall-E does is called narrow AI. He’s a robot who performs a very specific task.

Think of the automations you can apply in your law offices today. For example, follow-up automations. Right now, literally right now, you can set up a system that will notify clients and leads about next steps and set up those next steps and stop the messaging routine when the next step is taken. So schedule an appointment, I’ll sign the document electronically, send an invoice. That is for sure a form of machine learning.

And when you automate road test within the law office, just what does this allow you to do? Well, you can practice at the top of your law license by only working on or marketing for high value cases because you’ll have more space and time to delegate substantive work to your staff plus your staff can actually focus on more high value work and/or upscaling. So far so good, right? No flashing red eyes, no menacing, glowering, just timely robots, taking up pieces of trash.

So look, really the only hope you have is to run a Marriott(ph) in efficient law firm and the robots will help you to do that. They’re actually here to save you. Besides, I’m fairly confident that if I’m wrong about all of this and there is an AI powered robot takeover at some point, I’ll probably be dead so I’ll never know about it or we will destroy the planet before we can even get to building AI good enough to take over the world due to our horrible environmental record catching up to us. And even if we can’t ultimately avoid the AI apocalypse, those future robots are fucked anyway when the sun explodes. That’s right, suck it Ultron.

Now, before we talk to our guest, that will be Mat Rotenberg of Dashboard Legal, we’re going to talk to him about this topic, law firm productivity and whale testicles. Let’s see what Josh Lenon has cooked up for you. That’s right. It’s the Clio legal trends report minute up next.

Joshua Lenon: Did you know that in 2020, over 50% of legal professionals worried about the success of their law firm? To think that over half of the legal service industry has experienced such duress should be raising alarms. I’m Joshua Lenon, lawyer and residence at Clio. The good news is that industry data shows law firms are as busy as ever with new case work. The bad news for most lawyers is that billable earnings continue to be down by 68%. Clio’s legal trends report based on data from tens of thousands of legal professionals shows some lawyers have managed to earn $37,000 more than others. Were they doing differently? They’ve been using three key technologies; online payments, client portals and client intake solutions. To learn more about these technologies and much more for free, download Clio’s legal trends report at clio.com/trends. That’s Clio spelled C-L-I-O.

Jared Correia: Okay, it’s about time to get to the rocky mountain oysters on the garnish plate to this podcast. Let’s Interview our guest. My guest today is Mat Rotenberg who is the CEO of Dashboard Legal, a unique productivity tool for law firms. Mat, welcome to the show.

Mat Rotenberg: Thanks Jared, it’s great to be here and it’s been a long time coming. You are one of the first people I met on this journey.

Jared Correia: I’m so bad with this stuff. We just have a long waiting list for guests. We’re so damn popular. But I’m glad I was able to get you ahead.

Mat Rotenberg: I needed to build up some steam too before I was ready to be one of your steamed guest so I’m happy that I finally earned the right today.

Jared Correia: Right. Well, yeah, I think this is going to be really an interesting conversation. I’ve been looking forward to having it for a while as well. But I want to start off with one question I’ve had for a while which is you’re Mat but you’re Mat with one T, M-A-T. Now, how does something like that even happen?

Mat Rotenberg: yeah, I think my parents wanted a common name but they wanted me to be unique so they threw in a little curve bones said “Okay, he’s going to be Mathew with one T.”

Jared Correia: There you go. Now, you’ve got this productivity tool, Dashboard Legal, and I wanted to get some more generic topics but can you talk to me about why you decided to take a step to start a legal tech company? Because I think the founder’s journey stuff is interesting and everybody’s got a little bit of a different twist on that.

Mat Rotenberg: Yeah, so it’s a great question. So it really started with a need and many products start with that, with a personal need.

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I spent seven years practicing big law in New York City. Me too but I have now seen the light. I was working on this really sophisticated and intense public MNA transactions and I needed some tools to help. I was looking at all of the money oriented legal tech market, all of these interesting solutions but nothing for my day to day to really help me where I needed it; to get organized, to collaborate with colleagues, to produce some of the TDM that I was experiencing in my day to day. And so, when I saw what was on the legal tech market and I spoke with my colleagues about a tool that we would need, I was inspired to go build it myself. That happened a little over a year ago and now we have the tool up and running and it’s working as it should.

Jared Correia: Yeah, and I k now that’s not easy to do so congratulations on getting to this point. It’s tough for sure. But that’s a green fields on legal tech.

Mat Rotenberg: There is. Especially in collaboration and productivity space.

Jared Correia: Right. So let’s do that now. I’m going to bounce around a little bit during this interview but talk to me a little bit about your view of the state of productivity tools in legal including where you think those tools fail a little bit.

Mat Rotenberg: When I talk about legal productivity, I think it really falls into buckets. It’s about organization and collaborations. That’s where the lawyers are spending most of their time. And any tools that can facilitate those two priorities, that’s what we’re calling a legal productivity tool.

Right now, the productivity tool for lawyers is email. That’s it. It’s email and then some Microsoft Word checklist. That’s what most lawyers are using to organize their materials and to collaborate —

Jared Correia: You left out Excel.

Mat Rotenberg: Excel. Excel scares a lot of lawyers. I know some did. So the productivity tool market generally with collaboration tools like Slack and Teams with project management tools like Asana and Monday, these are really helping organizations and teams manage sophisticated projects. They’re helping facilitate communication and organization and workflow and they could absolutely help lawyers. So we as an industry, as a profession, need tools to help with those exact same needs but to be built for our specific workflow. And that’s what I think is lacking.

There are tools in the market that can help with collaboration. There are tools in the market that can help with project management but they’re not built for lawyers. So our initiative, Dashboard Legal, was to build those tools for attorneys.

Jared Correia: So stitching that together and then building a specific legal tech product. I get it.

Mat Rotenberg: Exactly.

Jared Correia:  The thesis makes a ton of sense. So in terms of one thing you talked about which is the tedium of legal work, I don’t think anybody is like entirely thrilled when they get to become a lawyer. They find out that the work’s a little bit boring, a little bit boxed in, they burn out really fast. So tools like yours and similar tools I think, you kind of view it as a way for people to break from the tedium a little bit, do the more exciting legal work that they’ve always wanted to do and make the profession like actually interesting. That’s one pathway here, right?

Mat Rotenberg: Yeah, certainly. Part of it is reducing the administrative burden of what it takes to get organized. There’s so much paper, there’s so many communications, there’s so many workflows and having tools to just automate some of that can free us up for work that actually matters and requires us to think. The other part of it is the collaboration piece which I think is really missing from the current conversation as well. When you look at what creates a better work product, what creates a more meaningful cohesive team, it’s open communication channels. It’s collaboration. It’s giving everybody on your team from senior partner all the way down to junior partner paralegal and so on an opportunity to jump in, to contribute and to really feel like they’re moving in the same direction.

When you have siloed communication, siloed workflows and email chains, you ruin those opportunities. When you open them up with digital workspaces, you enable those opportunities. So it is about the tedium. It’s about the administrative needs of today and helping that burden. And it’s also about finding ways to improve that collaborative team work which has effects on productivity, on the bottom line and on attorney happiness.

Jared Correia: Right, and that collaboration piece I think is important too right? Because now we’re living in a world where people have very distributed workforces and that’s not going away. So that’s a key component to what you’re thinking about as well. I’m sure, right? Like something like this is better suited to what I would describe as a more modern law practice.

Mat Rotenberg: Absolutely. The hybrid workforce is the way of the future for the law firms and our clients outside of law firms.

(00:15:01)

And the ability for technology to bring a dispersed workforce together to develop those stronger connections, lawyers actually will work harder when they have those connections. They will create a better work product and the priority today — I think it should also be mentioned. The priority today for a lot of attorneys is the ability to have that flexible work life balance.

Jared Correia: Yes, especially younger attorneys, right?

Mat Rotenberg: Exactly. Millennials care about that a lot. It’s not that they’re working less, but the balance they want is that they can work from anywhere. And so, that means that there is a mobile solution. They can do the work from their phone, they can do the work from their computer, they have these workspaces that don’t tie them to an office. And if you’re looking at ways to differentiate yourself to attract talents who are really built to that future hybrid workforce, digital workspaces are really important answer.

Jared Correia: Yeah, and you need a technology to allow that to happen and that collaboration and sharing tools are key component for that.

Mat Rotenberg: Absolutely. And the question is how do you get them to use it.

Jared Correia: Right. So I’ll ask you. How do you get them to use it?

Mat Rotenberg: That’s the core of our –

Jared Correia: Are tasers involved? No, go ahead.

Mat Rotenberg:  Exactly. You lock them in a room and then you tell them go. No, that’s not how big law works. The way you get them to use it is you meet them where they are. They’re not using these tools for a reason and the reason is they’re living in their inbox. We decided that if we could productivity tools into the inbox, into that email experience, that UI, the UX, then we would have an opportunity to be a bridge from email only workflow to a workflow that relies on email. It stays a part of the workflow but also introduces these really powerful productivity solutions, internal chat and project management checklist that could slough right into their productivity workflow.

Jared Correia: Yeah, lawyers love email. I don’t see that going away for a while.

Mat Rotenberg: Well, they hate email but they won’t leave it.

Jared Correia: Well, that’s a good point. That’s a good differentiation that you make there. I think that’s excellently turned, I couldn’t phrase it any better. So I guess like part of this too for me is a little bit of process management involved here as well, right? Law firms have not traditionally been very good at process management so there’s some education level involved here as well, right?

Mat Rotenberg: Yeah. When you think about the closing of a deal and I worked on MNA transactions so that’s what I’m familiar with. You finish you deal, there’s a lot of paper, you create a closing binder and then you put it in your bookshelf and then it’s done. When you start a new deal, you’re really starting with a blank slate. You’re getting some precedent, maybe a few checklist, you’re talking to maybe colleagues to get some institutional knowledge but you’re really starting with a piecemeal approach with things all over the place. And you can’t take advantage of that really valuable knowledge that’s inside the firm already.

So if you think about just the lightweight process management proven of having a flexible checklist which itemizes all the steps that went into getting from A to Z to getting it over the finish line and then taking that knowledge and applying that to the next one, you can improve processes and you can also see what needs improvement, see where you’re adding value and really get the benefit of all that institutional knowledge in a way that just isn’t happening right now.

Jared Correia: Right, yeah. That’s totally fair. So I think law firms are getting a little bit better at that but it’s coming along slow, for sure. And I think one of the points that you make there which is key is that like lawyers are not great at pulling the information from their own heads and utilizing it within the law firm environment both with respect to talking to colleagues and talking to clients. For some reason, they’re just very closed mouth about the stuff and they don’t want to make others aware of what’s happening. But that’s one of the first steps I think they need to take. And now the other piece is that when I talk to law firms about automation, process management, productivity improvements, kind of the stuff that you’re talking about, a lot of them have this aversion to becoming like a factory firm especially like smaller, mid-size law firms. So they think that they’re going to lose the personal touch, they think that they’re going to lose what makes them a law firm, they think they’re going to lose what they enjoy about practicing law. Do you view that to be true or no?

Mat Rotenberg: No. I think that there’s a reluctance to changing something that’s working and lawyers see that their model is working and so, they don’t see the impetus to change. But the reality is, is when you talk about productivity solutions and the administrative burden that it can alleviate, those are things that are not going to take away from where your lawyers are adding value.

(00:20:02)

Lawyers are adding value by applying judgment to facts and law and that’s not going away. That’s the highest level application of our value and the more we can attain that, the better product we’re going to produce, the happy we are of producing it and all of the administrative needs of running a litigation, of running a deal, take away from that. And so, the automation, that eliminates the worst parts of the job. So any attorney that thinks it’s going to replace them, I think that concern is misplaced.

And on a collaboration end, what we found and what others have found, where there’s clue or future ready survey, there’s a great book by Heidi Gardner about smart collaboration is that collaboration actually creates a happier attorney. They develop deeper connections with their colleagues. They feel ore loyalty to the firm, to their team, to their project and that actually creates a better work product as well. So everybody benefits from opening the channels. Everybody benefits from having a universal place to see the information and yes, it’s about reducing the administrative needs, but it’s also about improving the way we work and I think that’s really important.

Jared Correia: Right. And to be clear, I talked a bit about this in the monologue is the robots are not coming to take your job as a lawyer, at least not for a long time. This is about implementing processes in a more cost-effective way, not having to utilize staff for that necessarily so everybody can upscale. That’s the way I view it.

Mat Rotenberg: That’s right on.

Jared Correia: Mat, this was fun but this was only the first segment. That was Mat Rotenberg, he’s the CEO of Dashboard Legal and Mat will be right back. We’ll take one final sponsor break so you can hear more about what our sponsors can do for your law practice then stay tuned for the rump roast. It’s even more supple than the roast beast.

[Music]

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Welcome back. We’re here at the rear end of the Legal Toolkit, my favorite part of the show, the rump roast. It’s a grab bag of short form topics all of my choosing. Today, we’re going to bring back our guest, Mat Rotenberg of Dashboard Legal, to play a game with us. Mat, are you ready?

Mat Rotenberg: Let the rump roast begin.

Jared Correia: This is a new game.

Mat Rotenberg: Okay.

Jared Correia: I introduced it myself.

Mat Rotenberg: All right, I’m excited.

Jared Correia: It’s called Balls Deep. We’re going deep on questions about balls. I’m going to ask Mat lots of questions about balls and it’s his job to try to get as many of them correct as he can. Mat, has your legal training prepared you for this?

Mat Rotenberg: Yes.

Jared Correia: Great. He must have gone through a very interesting law school.

Mat Rotenberg: The answer is it depends for every question.

Jared Correia: Excellent. All right. Number one, what’s the oldest brand of rugby ball dating back all the way to 1823?

Mat Rotenberg: Spalding.

Jared Correia: Spalding is a great guess but it’s actually called the Gilbert brand. So a lot of the rugby balls, they have Gilbert on the side. There was a company developed by a cobbler in 1823, his name was William Gilbert and he was the first person to create rugby balls. Because this is an educational show, balls were hands dished in four panels and made with lizard casings and pig bladders. It is the shape of the pig’s bladder that is reputed to have given the rugby ball it’s distinctive oval shape. The balls of those days were more plump shaped than oval. Continuing on from Wikipedia, in those early days, William’s nephew James who was famed for his extraordinary lung power inflated the balls. He actually blew this balls off one by one. Now, there was one problem, if the pig was deceased, it was possible to develop lung diseases from blowing up the balls. Not good.

(00:24:59)

In fact, that wife of a man named Richard Lyndon died from an infection pop from an infected pig’s bladder. This fueled Lyndon in the mid-1880s to pioneer the rubber bladder, the brass hand pump inflator and finally, the advent of shape standardization. That’s far more than you ever wanted to know about rugby balls.

Mat Rotenberg: Yeah, it is. But it is a great little fact toy to when I go out next, I can —

Jared Correia: Yes, and there’s cocktail party. People are going to be loving that. All right. That was a great guess. You ready for question 2?

Mat Rotenberg: Let’s go.

Jared Correia: On a standard soccer ball, how many hexagons and how many pentagons are present?

Mat Rotenberg: I’m going to say 16 and 32.

Jared Correia: Oh my god, that’s a great guess. It’s actually 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons. But that was really close Mat. You’re holding your own here for sure.

Mat Rotenberg: Appreciate it Jared.

Jared Correia: All right, question 3, the one we’ve all been waiting for. Mat, which animal has the biggest testicles by percentage of body weight?

Mat Rotenberg: By percentage of body weight. Now I’m thinking about a small animal but —

Jared Correia: You’re getting warm.

Mat Rotenberg: Am I?

Jared Correia: This is a tough one but you’re on the right track.

Mat Rotenberg: How about a bulldog?

Jared Correia: That’s close. A bulldog’s a great guess. It’s actually the tuberous bush cricket.

Mat Rotenberg: Tuberous bush cricket, that was on the tip of my tongue.

Jared Correia: I know, you almost got that.

Mat Rotenberg: That was my second guess.

Jared Correia: I’m going to attempt the Latin name here. It’s platycleis affinis. So its testicles actually account for 14% of its body weight. If the same proportion were applied to a man, his testicles will weigh the equivalent of six bas of sugar each. How could you even walk at that point? So I’m reading from a Guardian article, Dr. Karim Vahed, a behavioral entomologist at Derby led the study. He said these really are quite phenomenal testes. That’s what she said. They take up nearly the whole of the bush cricket’s abdomen. T’s just shows how competitive reproduction is for some species.

Now, because I know everybody is dying to know. If we’re talking about sheer weight of testicles irrespective of a relation to body size, the Atlantic right whale is the champion. Believe it or not, it’s testicles weigh literally a ton, 2000 pounds when combined. And to that, I say Moby Dick indeed. Actually Moby Dick was a sperm whale. Okay, I’ll stop now. Mat, question 4. In 1971, Alan Shepard, the commander of Apollo 14 hit two gold balls with a makeshift club from the surface of the moon. Sounds like a pretty cool thing to do. Shepard estimated that his best shot of the two traveled 200 yards but with recent video analysis, they know exactly how far the second shot traveled. How far did his second shot actually go?

Mat Rotenberg: I’ll say 100 yards.

Jared Correia: Oh man, another great guess. 40 yards. Good guess.

Mat Rotenberg: Okay. So we know how he plays golf.

Jared Correia: Right. So just to give you a little bit more context from astronomy.com, specialist Andy Saunders recently analyzed the steels taken by the astronauts with their hazard bag cameras as well as video from the lunar asent module as it lifted off from the surface. Saunders managed to identify not only Shepard’s golf balls but also the footprints from his stance and even his divots by comparing these to more recent satellite images from NASA’s lunar reconnaissance orbiter. Saunders was able to measure Shepard’s second shot. The result that polled through 40 yards still not bad for a one-handed bunker shot taken while wearing a bulky space suit in weak gravity. I call this excuses, I don’t know.

Mat Rotenberg: I can’t believe they measured that and lawyers are still dragging and dropping emails.

Jared Correia: Right. That’s a perfect callback. All right, Mat. You’ve been great, we got one question left. This is your chance to redeem yourself.

Mat Rotenberg: I got to get one here.

Jared Correia: But guesses have been much better than I thought. All right, I’m hoping this one’s a softball, no pun intended. Which artist wrote this lyrics? Well, I’m rather upper class high society. God’s gift to ballroom notoriety and I always feel my ball room. The event is never small. The social pages say I’ve got the biggest balls of all.

Mat Rotenberg: Kanye West?

Jared Correia: ACDC. That’s the song big balls from their 1976 album, Dirty Deeds Done Dirty Cheap. This was really hard. I kind of set you up and now I feel bad. Can you give me your 30-second review?

Mat Rotenberg: This was a rump roast indeed. 30-second review of this podcast?

(Voice Overlap)

The rump roast was the strangest part I’ve ever been a part of but I had a good time with you Jared.

Jared Correia: Good, that’s what we go for. That’s the aim. Now, 30 seconds I know you’ve been watching Loki on Disney Plus which is awesome.

(00:30:02)

I love that show as well. You want to give us your 30-second review of Loki because I was such a dick for the last 10 minutes?

Mat Rotenberg: I would say Loki was a very pleasant surprise. I went in with some pretty low expectations but it blew it out of the water. It’s a tightly crafted show, some excellent kind of meta concepts, great execution. I mean, I’m loving Loki and looking forward to seeing the season finale. Hopefully Disney retweets this podcast now.

Jared Correia: Oh they always do. Every episode.

Mat Rotenberg: Okay, good.

Jared Correia: Mat, thank you, you’re amazing. I really appreciate it.

Mat Rotenberg: Thanks Jared. It was great being with you here and I’ll just say that I want to take a second to appreciate what you do for the legal tech community and the law community. You were extremely open when I was just a few weeks into this and you replied to my email and chatted with me when I had no idea what was going on. And it really meant a lot and helped me start this really purposeful driven journey that I’m on.

Jared Correia: That’s really kind of you to say. I appreciate it. Now I feel even worse about what just happened.

Mat Rotenberg: Next time, I’m asking you the rump roast questions Jared.

Jared Correia: I will come at one of your podcast and you’ll ask me whatever questions you want.

Mat Rotenberg: All right.

Jared Correia: Now, for those of you listening in Blue Ball Village Maryland where it’s never Christmas I suppose, our Spotify playlist for this week’s show is all about second bananas. That’s right. In honor of Rango Star’s 81 birthday a couple of weeks back, we’re going to spotlight the lesser members of famous groups. But that’s enough talk about balls and bananas because as we wrap up the show, the music you’re hearing right now is from no second banana. This is normal people by MOK.

Now, you might know MOK better as today’s guest, Mat Rotenberg. You can find the link to his album, Kids Table in the show notes for this episode on Legal Talk Network website so suck it Owl City. Oh yeah, you can also learn about Mat’s email productivity software at Dashboard Legal at dashboardlegal.com. Sadly, we’ve run out of time and I won’t be able to host at telethon for impoverished podcast host today. I guess those guys are fucked. That’ll do it for another episode Legal Toolkit podcast where I’m still looking for a producer for my animated series/documentary hybrid Liger King. Call me.

[Music]

 

Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com

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