Saying “NonLawyer” Isn’t Cool Anymore; Finding Fulfillment in Your Work; and the “Stick or Quit” Rump Roast!

Episode Notes

Transcript

The Legal Toolkit

Saying “NonLawyer” Isn’t Cool Anymore; Finding Fulfillment in Your Work; and the “Stick or Quit” Rump Roast!

April 8, 2021

[Music]

Intro: It’s the Legal Toolkit with Jared Correia. With guest Toya Gavin. A round of stick or quit and I finally tell Jared everything that annoys me about him. But first speak of the devil, it’s your host, Jared Correia.

[Music]

Jared Correia: Oh, yes. Another episode of the Legal Toolkit podcast. My name is Jared Correia and because Monty Hall was unavailable, I’m your host. I’m the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, a business management consulting service for attorneys. Find us online at redcavelegal.com. I’m  the CEO of Gideon Software Inc. We built chat bots so law firms can convert more leads. You can find out more about Gideon at www.gideon.legal.

Before we get rolling, I’d like to take a moment to thank my mom for listening to every episode. Now, my mom is the real reason you’re listening to the show right now, but the sponsors have a little something to do with it as well. So, I’d like to thank our sponsors also.

We would like to thank Alert Communications for sponsoring this podcast. If any law firm is looking for call intake or retainer services available 24/7/365, just call 866-827-5568. Scorpion is the leading provider of marketing solutions for the legal industry with nearly 20 years of experience serving attorneys. Scorpion can help grow your practice. Learn more at scorpionlegal.com. Clio’s cloud-based practice management software makes it easy to manage your law firm from intake to invoice. Try it for free at clio.com. That’s C-L-I-O dot com. TimeSolv is the number one web-based time and billing software for lawyers, providing the most comprehensive billing features for law firms guaranteed to improve collection rates, www.timesolv.com.

Lawyers do a lot of obnoxious things, but perhaps, the most obnoxious thing that lawyers do is refer to other humans as non-lawyers It’s awful, it’s embarrassing, it’s demeaning and it’s long past time it stopped. Hey, everybody, this is not fucking Harry Potter where your wizards and everyone else is a muggle. Just get over yourselves. Do you think plumbers sit around and talk about non-plumbers? Probably not because they’re not dicks. I haven’t written a law review article on this or anything, but my guess is that and my educated guess is that the whole lawyer, non-lawyer dichotomy developed out of legal ethics is a way to define a lawyer’s duty to oversee “non-lawyers.” Fun fact, I quit law review in law school and they told me I’d never amount to anything. Now, I’m posting a podcast.

All right, at this point, I think I could take this in any number of directions, but let’s focus on the relationship between attorneys and support staff. I know plenty of law firms where support staff are the engine that drives the firm and yet lawyers seekers of worst case scenarios and micromanagers like nobody else really drill down into this like lawyer, non-lawyer divide when they’re managing their staff. In the first instance they’re viewing paralegals and administrators as staff and not as team members. Pretty tough to establish a culture that includes any non-lawyers in that case in decision making and yet legal support staff know more about substantive work than lawyers do in some cases and even perform it better. They understand leads and clients better in many cases because they have more frequent interactions with them than lawyers do. What’s the chief complaint about lawyers from legal consumers and clients? They don’t contact them back. Paralegals, support staff also have a better grip on finances in some cases. Bookkeepers as well and oftentimes they have a better grasp of the broader law firm marketing tactics. Lawyers usually focus only on in-person networking, but there’s more that goes into bringing a client into a law firm than just that. And yet, these are the people that get ostracized. What’s wrong with this picture? Neither is this a good look for law firms because lots more lawyer power brokers are men and a larger percentage of legal staff people are female. That relationship is paternalistic enough before you add name calling into the mix.

Now, when I talk to consulting clients of mine, I always tell them to hire lawyers last. Legal staff, let’s call them team members now are often cheaper, more effective, especially when they’re starting up by the way and when you hire a new attorney right out of law school, the learning curve is super deep and costly. You’re not making money off of those people for a long time. And paralegals, legal staff, team members, they come with less baggage than lawyers because they didn’t just come out of law school and think they’re hot shit because of it.

(00:05:04)

 

So, this is why smart law firms are shifting to non-attorney staff to take on new roles including smaller firms that are being entire people like COOs, marketing technicians, sales people; non-lawyers all, right? So, let’s be real for a second here. If you want to run a more efficient and effective law firm, you should be doubling down on non-lawyers rather than looking down on them. Building a true legal team and effective law firm culture requires it in fact. So, if you’re not ready to embrace your staff as a full-fledged member or full-fledged members of your legal team so that you’re all pulling for the same goals, that’s a non-starter. Stay tuned, because we’re about to team up with our guest, Toya Gavin from Legally Bold. That’s next. But first, a quick commercial break.

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Okay, it’s about time to literally get to the heart of this haggis. Actually, don’t eat haggis. It’s disgusting. My apologies to William Wallace. Let’s interview our guest. What do you say? My guest today is Toya Gavin who is the founder of Legally Bold where she helps legal professionals get a better job whether that’s continuing to be a lawyer or looking for an alternative career. Toya, welcome to the show. How are you?

Toya Gavin: Thanks for having me Jared. I’m doing well. How are you?

Jared Correia: I’m doing all right. This is great. I love doing these podcasts because it gives me a chance to catch up with people that I have not sometimes talked to for a while and certainly of late, haven’t seen for a long time. So, it’s good to see you virtually.

Toya Gavin: It’s good to see you virtually too. I know covet has kept us all away from each other for a long time.

Jared Correia: It’s been weird times for sure.

Toya Gavin: Yeah.

Jared Correia: But we’ve known each other for a little while now. Do you want to do the recap of how we met?

Toya Gavin: Sure. So, I left my job, my real legal job.

Jared Correia: Yes. As opposed to the fake one, right?

Toya Gavin: As opposed to a fake one. So, I left my job as a prosecutor in 2015 and when I did that, I started following Solo Practice University which is where I found you and your work and we started to work together. You were my first coach. So, technically, you inspired all of this.

Jared Correia: That’s good. So, hopefully it’s going well because I wouldn’t want to screw any of that up.

Toya Gavin: No. It’s going very, very well.

Jared Correia: And now you’ve got your own like coaching, consulting business. That’s really cool and you’re enjoying it more than you did practicing law, right?

Toya Gavin: Yeah.

Jared Correia: Just a little bit.

Toya Gavin: Just a little bit. Yeah, no. After I went out on my own, I was enjoying that, but I had like my first bout with like major depression and anxiety around 2016 into 2017. Like it lasted a lot longer than I mean, I’m a lawyer so I thought like, oh, okay. So, like eight weeks. I remember this is how funny we are. Like I remember going to my therapist the first time and saying like okay, so like she told me I needed a break and I was like, oh, so like two weeks?

Jared Correia: Oh, that’s totally a lawyer mentality. I’ll take the weekend off is that cool?

Toya Gavin: Yeah, like that should be good and then you’re going to give me like a worksheet or something.

Jared Correia: Right, right.

Toya Gavin: And I’m good. And she was like no, that’s not how this works.

Jared Correia: I mean, I think it’s great that not only you got through that, but you’re willing to talk about it, because that’s a significant issue in the legal vertical that a lot of people don’t discuss or not willing to discuss. Because lawyers are supposed to tough it out, right?

Toya Gavin: Right. And there is just a myth that lawyers are toughing it out. There’s a large percentage of us who are struggling with that and it shows up in substance abuse, it shows up in the way we do our work. Like I remember being in law school and you know how you do the character and fitness and they tell you like, oh, remember to like return your clients phone calls and I’m like who’s not gonna — like why is this a conversation?

(00:10:04)

 

Of course, you will just like return their phone calls.

Jared Correia: Right.

Toya Gavin: But I think a lot of those issues are really people struggling with the overwhelm and feeling like they have to handle everything and not really knowing how to language I need help or you know something is up here and not really knowing what that is.

Jared Correia: Right. Yeah, I think that’s totally true and I do believe that you’re right. A lot of those lawyer issues come from underlying anxiety issues, depression related issues. It’s especially like smaller firm attorneys, solo attorneys, that happens a lot and then also I think when you get into the bigger firms. There’s just so much pressure to perform all the time that it’s really tough.

Toya Gavin: Right. Right. There’s never an outlet to say like I need help or I don’t understand something or I’m struggling. There’s always this facade you have to keep up of like everything is fine and I’m on top of everything and so yeah, I think it’s almost 30% of lawyers that report because they did the study with the ABA.

Jared Correia: And that’s self-reporting too. You’re going to put the lawyers from that are not self-reporting. Yeah.

Toya Gavin: Right. I remember when that happened, I actually wrote a piece for Solo Practice University and the piece was more like so I have to stop, I’m depressed, I’m a black woman, probably not going to work again, right?

Jared Correia: However, you turned it all around.

Toya Gavin: Turned it all around. No, after that piece, because it was really was just me being vulnerable like being afraid.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Toya Gavin: And then from that piece, I got like emails from attorneys like all over who were like can we talk? I’m going through the same thing like all this and that kind of sparked my interest to do something for our profession. Like we have, this can’t be it. Like this can’t be it.

Jared Correia: I mean, there’s a logical trail to where you ended up; I think because if you look at it like a lot of attorneys don’t do what you did, which is like I’m going to stop and reassess. They never do that. They just keep moving forward. So, the fact that you’re helping other people now to kind of stop and reassess and also to look at alternatives to a legal career; I think a lot of attorneys also feel like they’re a lot like you said like I’m never going to get another job again, right? Because like I can. A lot of people feel like I can only do one thing, but that’s not true at all. Like if you’ve got a legal degree, you’ve got a skill set that works across a number of places and sometimes it’s just about stopping, reassessing and figuring out a better way to move forward.

Toya Gavin: Absolutely and I think our profession does the people in a disservice by not really highlighting that or explaining that. There’s so many skills. I always say like to my clients too like it’s a skill to be a professional asshole in any setting and what I mean by that is the person who’s always like so I’m following up on the follow-up, on the follow-up. Remember you said, remember you said, remember you said. That’s a skill, man.

Jared Correia: No, it’s very true.

Toya Gavin: And to not be afraid to talk to anyone in any position to really say what needs to be said. I spoke to another lawyer recently who defined it as managerial courage.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Toya Gavin: Like lawyers have that. Like we’re coming in the room and we’re going to say the things that need to be said and that’s just some of the things that we can identify. But there’s no real language around that in our profession to explain how those things can cross in different areas.

Jared Correia: I think that’s very true. That idea of managerial courage is something that lawyers can impart. Most do actually. I feel like in a lot of cases. I think this subject of like — I think it is difficult to be a lawyer in many cases and I also think it’s difficult to be a lawyer in many cases if you’re not like an old white male lawyer as well. So, I kind of want to talk a little bit about that too because we were talking a little bit before we did the show here and this whole Meghan Markle, Oprah, Prince Harry, royal family thing is in the news like right now. So, for those folks who don’t know what’s happening there, can you give a quick recap and then I thought it was really interesting how you tied this into the notion of microaggressions that take place in a work environment. So, what’s your take on that because I thought it was really interesting?

Toya Gavin: Well, I thought Meghan Markle and that whole story was just a perfect example of what people of color and particularly black people go through when they’ve reached a certain level of professionalism, right? So, if you take Meghan, Meghan is like one of the most beautiful women I’ve ever seen, one of the most poised women I’ve ever seen. Like she’s amazing, she’s beloved, she’s charismatic, she’s friends with all the people, right? She knows all the people, right? And even with all of those attributes, when she went into that family and they liked her and I’m putting in air quotes, they liked her.

(00:15:02)

Jared Correia: Yes. You got to tell people when you’re doing the air quotes. Okay.

Toya Gavin: Yes, I’m putting air quotes. They liked her and they welcomed her into the family when it came down to protecting her, protecting her son and the optics of it questioning whether how her son what his skin tone was going to be.

Jared Correia: Yeah, that was definitely a bad look for the royal family.

Toya Gavin: Right? It really goes to the nature of just how deeply embedded this idea — racism is in our culture and around the world and why I call it microaggressions is like it’s Britain, right? So, these are really aristocratic, they’re well-mannered people, right? So, I’m sure no one went up to her and said some racist thing and was pointing or gesturing at her face. What they did is they just we’re just going to remove your security. So it’s almost like you feel like is what’s happening to me really happening to me? So you’re questioning your own grip on reality, right? Like is this racist because they’re not calling me names but like –

Jared Correia: Yeah, they’re just doing this other thing to encroach.

Toya Gavin: Right. They’re just doing all these things  that when I talk to them about it, I’m sure they’re like no. It’s just, this is just protocol. This is just how it is. It has nothing to do and then if you ask about race, it’s like why would you bring that up? Of course.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Toya Gavin: That’s not the reason.

Jared Correia: Yeah. No. I mean, but I think you’re right in that like you can take that example from really austere British Royal Family, Buckingham Palace and you could probably find similar analogies in law firms in the United States, right? And I mean, you probably experienced some stuff like that in your career as well I’m sure. Not that I’m asking you to talk about it, but like I’m sure you and other lawyers have experienced the same things in different ways.

Toya Gavin: Yeah. I think like I — it’s particularly around like this year in COVID times and like everything that’s happened with race relations in our country during 20 and 2000. What is this? 2020 and 2021.

Jared Correia: It is hard to know what year it is anymore, yeah.

Toya Gavin: I’ve had a lot of conversations with attorneys who are just disappointed in their firms because they were the “rising star” in their firm and they were doing so well and so when they approached their firm or their diversity committee approached their firm about issuing a statement in support of the protests or issuing a statement condemning the murder or the racist murder of George Floyd or any of that. They got shut down. I even had someone tell me that he was accused of starting a coup in the law firm by even bringing this up and he’s like what? And so, like that’s what I mean about like — and another way microaggression show up is what I like to call like performative social justice. It’s like let’s have a panel discussion about the lack of diversity in our law firm, right? Great, great. You had that panel, have you hired any more people of color? Have you adjusted the salaries of women so that they’re on par with men? We’re getting to that.

Jared Correia: But I think you’re talking like so that in contrast to say like the general council of Coca-Cola I think came out what was like maybe three weeks ago and I was like look, if anybody’s going to be getting legal work from Coca-Cola they need to have this percentage of minority employees which is a different thing than having a panel or putting something into a committee, right? Which is what lawyers do all the time. Let’s put this into a committee and then figure out what to do later like 50 years from now.

Toya Gavin: Right, right. We love a good committee.

Jared Correia: Right, right, right. No, but I see what you’re saying like putting things into action is different than talking about putting things into action. Just out of curiosity, do you see some things happening in law firms that would be heading down the road of actual actions that are being taken rather than just talking about doing things?

Toya Gavin: I think that it’s going to be spurred by businesses. So, I think like you mentioned Coca-Cola and other businesses are going to start to inquire and question and because of that, law firms will begin to change. I’m a big fan of like I can’t change your mind and your heart, but we can change actions. Regardless of how you feel or regardless of how I feel, I have to pay taxes, right? Listen, they have to be paid so I paid them.

(00:20:00)

I think that until we address all of these issues which are deeply rooted and they’re just nuanced and confusing, just having those standards as to how you hire, how you pay, you can just  create those rules so that there’s equity and then figure out all of the feelings behind it on a continuous basis.

Jared Correia: Because I think part of this is like being introspective about it because what came out today, the day we’re recording the podcast is this interview happens with Oprah, Prince William and his wife are out on the playground this morning and somebody says what about this interview? And he says, the royal family is very much not racist. So to you, does that feel like a standard like law firm response where it’s like, hey, this is not happening rather than saying, okay, let’s be more introspective about this and see how we can improve what we’re doing.

Toya Gavin: One hundred percent, right? The the word racist is so charged and so no one — I always say, I’ve never met a racist who said they were racists, right? I’ve never met one who admitted to being racist, right? Because no one wants to –

Jared Correia: And people are not raising their hands. It’s being like, oh, yes, I’m racist. I am.

Toya Gavin: Like me. Actually I’m the first one  and so it’s charged and it’s almost there are so many nuances and there are so many ways that bias creeps in into all of our lives and so his response it makes sense because you’re immediately put on the defense. So, he was saying I’m not that. Like I’m not  that person and it’s really about thinking about the actions like if it had been his wife and they said, listen, no, no, no, we love. We love you but you need to get a job and we’re not going to offer security to you or your son because we’re just not into brown-haired kids.

Jared Correia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Toya Gavin: Would his response be like, oh, my brother is just — it’s fine. You wouldn’t do that, right? And you would expect your brother to say that’s not right, don’t treat my brother or his family like that, right? And so, that conversation, that internal conversation that’s a hard one to have with yourself.

Jared Correia: Totally. And so, yeah, I think this is a great take by the way on your part like being introspective, thinking about things, taking actions on things, not perpetually putting it off. I think those are probably all good lessons for law firms. I thought this was great by the way and I really appreciate your willingness to open up on subjects like these because I know it’s not an easy thing to do, but I think it’s important to talk about them. So, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Toya Gavin: Thank you, thank you.

Jared Correia: All right. So, that’s Toya Gavin from Legally Bold and she’ll be back in a moment. We’re going to do some fun stuff after those heavy topics because we’ll take one final sponsor break, so you can hear more about what our sponsors can do for your law practice and stay tuned for the rump roast. It’s even more supple than the roast beast.

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Welcome back to the rear end of the Legal Toolkit, the rump roast. It’s a grab bag of short form topics of my choosing. Today, we’re going to play stick or quit. Toya does that sound familiar to you?

Toya Gavin: Yes.

Jared Correia: All right. So, the background here is that you’ve got a little quiz on your website called stick or quit. You want to talk to people about that before we get into the like the little game I’ve designed for us?

Toya Gavin: Yes. So, I have a quiz on my website because one, I love quizzes on websites and that’s why I created it.

Jared Correia: Who doesn’t. That’s why BuzzFeed exists.

Toya Gavin: And two, I thought it was a great way to help people who were trying to figure out like am I just unhappy at this job, do I need to leave the law, what else do I need to do and I got that question often. So, I created a little quiz to answer those questions.

(00:25:03)

Jared Correia: So the quiz is free, right? If I jump onto the website and I’m a lawyer who’s maybe a little bit dissatisfied in my career, I can take it and then figure out maybe where I want to go?

Toya Gavin: Yes, yes. The quiz is free.

Jared Correia: This is a little bit different than that. My version of stick or quit.

Toya Gavin: Okay.

Jared Correia: So, here’s what we’re going to do.

Toya Gavin: It’s about to get dicey. Okay, let’s go.

Jared Correia: Yes, it’s about to get real dicey. So, I came up with some crazy home remedies that I found online that are real. And so what I want to know from you is would you undertake these home remedies  or would you quit? So, I’m going to talk to you about a home remedy and then I’m going to get your take on it whether or not you think it’s viable and if you stick with it. Okay.

Toya Gavin: Okay.

Jared Correia: Remedy number one, soaking your feet in vodka eliminates foot odor. Would you try it and for how long?

Toya Gavin: I would try it.

Jared Correia: And I’m not saying you have foot odor. I’m just saying if you did hypothetically.

Toya Gavin: I would try it. I would probably before putting my feet in the vodka make myself a drink and so I would do it for as long as I have my drink.

Jared Correia: Oh, that’s a fair — I like that. Okay, okay, because I was going to say like you probably want to drink the vodka afterwards. So, you make the drink first, you drink the drink, you soak your feet and then you do the smell test and see how – okay, okay. That’s home remedy number one. Are you ready for home remedy number two?

Toya Gavin: Yes.

Jared Correia: Okay. My dad used to tell me that when I had hiccups, I should drink water through a face cloth. Would you try that if you had hiccups?

Toya Gavin: You know, what came to my mind immediately? I’m sure you can guess this. I was like is this waterboarding? Which is crazy.

Jared Correia: No, no. It’s not like we’re not — I’m not on my back. No one’s pouring the liquid into my mouth. I am just putting it merely, merely putting a face cloth over a glass of water. This is not torture.

Toya Gavin: Oh, okay. Over the glass of water. Okay, yes.

Jared Correia: I just want to be clear in case my family is listening. No one waterboarded me as a child. I should have been more clear about that.

Toya Gavin: You know what? That one seems — so put a face cloth like a washcloth or you like?

Jared Correia: Yes. Like a real washcloth over a glass of water and then you drink. It was supposed to cure hiccups. Would you try it?

Toya Gavin: If the washcloth was clean, I guess I –

Jared Correia: Okay. That’s a fair point.

Toya Gavin: I would do if it was clean.

Jared Correia: I wish people could see your face right now because I don’t know that you really would try this.

Toya Gavin: It makes it makes me nervous because I’m like I would need to see the cloth if it was clean because like I know like I could think of like I have like cousins who are like brothers or like brothers who are really close friends and they would say it’s clean. I’m putting that in quotations.

Jared Correia: Yeah. I like the liberal use of air quotes here. It’s good.

Toya Gavin: I know. But I don’t know how clean it actually is.

Jared Correia: That’s fair. That’s fair. I would be reticent to do it and by the way full disclosure, my dad is not a doctor. He was not a doctor and that does not work. Okay, okay, so here’s number three. Major league baseball players who don’t wear batting gloves, they harden their hands to grip the bat effectively and they do it by soaking their hands in a bucket of urine. If you want to be a hall of fame baseball player would you do that?

Toya Gavin: No, no.

Jared Correia: It’s a fairy fly, but that’s actually a real thing believe it or not. That is really true and it does work. It does work. So, if you want to sell out, be an MLB player sometimes you have to go that route.

Toya Gavin: So, they soak them. Is it like do you do it like every day and is it your own urine or someone else’s?

Jared Correia: It does not have to be your own urine.

Toya Gavin: Oh, no.

Jared Correia: It could be someone else’s urine. Although if it were me, I don’t know what’s worse. I don’t know if I’d pick my own or someone else. These are the kind of choices we make.

Toya Gavin: True.

Jared Correia: So, imagine you’re sitting in the clubhouse of your baseball stadium and you’ve got your hands soaking in urine, your feet is soaking in vodka, and then sitting next to you is a little cup with a face cloth on it. It’s a good day. All right, I got one more for you.

Toya Gavin: Yeah.

Jared Correia: The last one I promise. You’ve been a good sport. Eating beets to relieve constipation. Would you try that?

Toya Gavin: Eating beets like the –

Jared Correia: Like the — I think beets are a vegetable, yes.

Toya Gavin: Yes, yes.

Jared Correia: Eating beets are supposed to solve for constipation. I did not know this until recently. I haven’t had an opportunity to try it yet. So, I would totally try this.

Toya Gavin: I would try this. I like beets. I like roasted beets so I would try this.

Jared Correia: Oh, you’d roast them. That’s a good idea.

Toya Gavin: Yeah.

Jared Correia: Because I was just thinking of like grabbing a beet like an apple and just like taking –

Toya Gavin: Oh, like a raw beet.

Jared Correia: Yeah. But your plan is much better.

Toya Gavin: Yeah. I don’t know about the raw beet. I mean, biting into a raw beat –

Jared Correia: Is probably nasty.

(00:30:00)

Toya, you’ve been a great sport today. Thank you for playing the rump roast. I appreciate it.

Toya Gavin: Thank you. It was fun.

Jared Correia: We go down some strange roads on this podcast. That’s what happens when somebody gives me control over a podcast. All right. Thank you, Toya. I appreciate it.

Toya Gavin: Thank you.

Jared Correia: Now, for those of you listening in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, I know you’re out there, our Spotify playlist for this week’s show covers some of my favorite tunes from the British invasion. We talked about the English monarchy, so listen to that when it releases with the show. Our guest today has been Toya Gavin of Legally Bold. For more information about Legally Bold, go to legally-bold.com. Unfortunately, we’ve run out of time for our announcer to tell you everything about me that annoys them. So, we’ll just have to skip that segment. Oh, well that’ll do it for another episode of the Legal Toolkit podcast where Morton’s foot is still recognized as a symbol of beauty.

Outro: Screw you Jared. Here you go everyone. My top 10 things that annoy me about Jared. Number 10, his endless awful Will Ferrell impressions, just embarrassing. Number nine, his terrible taste in food. Haggis for the record is fine. There’s more to eat than just mac and cheese and chicken nuggets. Number eight, and this one is really gross. Number eight – hey, stop fading out. Number eight, I know for a fact –

[Music]

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