The Unkillable Billable Hour, Productizing Legal Services, and the Rump Roast: Double Jeopardy!

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Transcript

The Legal Toolkit

The Unkillable Billable Hour, Productizing Legal Services, and the Rump Roast: Double Jeopardy!

11/24/2020

Jared Correia: Before we get started, I have a little contest to announce. As you know we’ve been doing things a little bit differently on The Legal Toolkit of late and one of the things that we’re doing is I’m creating a unique Spotify playlist for every episode. This week I have got 14 songs that mention brands or products, and we have a little contest to announce. If you contact me on Twitter or via email and tell me the products in each of those 14 songs and get them all right, you can be a guest on the next Legal Toolkit. You can reach me via Twitter @jaredcorreia or via email at [email protected]. Get those submissions in by November 27^th, and if you get them all right, you can be on the next show. I will look forward to talking with you.

[Music]

Jared Correia: Welcome to the award-winning Legal Toolkit Podcast only on the Legal Talk Network. Twice a month we’re delivering law practice management tips and tricks directly to your ear holes.

My name is Jared Correia, and because Steve Allen was unavailable I’m your host today.

I am the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, a business management consulting service for attorneys. Find us online at www.redcavelegal.com.

I am also the COO of Gideon Software, Inc., we build chatbots, so law firms can convert more leads. You can find out more about Gideon at www.gideon.legal.

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Even as everybody sits on their respective couches binging The Queen’s Gambit on Netflix and ordering Domino’s every night or at least that’s what I’m doing, and waiting to leave their homes again lawyers remain very uncomfortable with subscription services at a variety of levels.

Yes, even as the convenience economy rages around them lawyers fiddle as the world burns. So traditionally attorneys were very uncomfortable about subscriptions on the buy side. To that end they were pretty unhappy with the option to move off of premise-based software, right.

Lawyers loved premise-based software because they would just use those tools until they ran them into the ground, until they fell apart like an old car. Only that was never actually a good idea because traditional law firm cost saving measures like that only led to you using buggy products, shared user licenses and both of those things contribute to being more inefficient.

But I digress. Now more and more law firms are adopting cloud software and also begrudgingly paying for subscriptions on either a monthly or annual basis. So the problem now has shifted to the sell side. So even as smaller numbers of lawyers begin to adopt what are called subscription services, many grumble over the prospect, others want to apply them but don’t know how to do it and still others have no clue what those even are, they haven’t heard of them at all.

Now let me be clear this is not about predicting the death of the billable hour. I’m not going down that road. I wouldn’t presume to do that because the billable hour is like a cockroach, you just can’t seem to kill it off. I’m out of silver bullets and wooden stakes. But even if I didn’t know when the billable hour would die or will die ever, I do know that it still kind of sucks even as it lives on.

So some of the major issues I see with the billable hour model are probably obvious and are as follows. So billing by the hour incentivizes inefficiency. The more hours you work, the more you get paid. I got news for you. Clients can have and will figure that out, plus billable hour attorney’s invoice in arrears.

(00:05:01)

So that means when the case is over there’s very little incentive for clients to actually pay you because you have nothing left to do for them. And that’s one of the reasons lawyers are always, always chasing money. Hourly billing also if you’re not careful can become a race to the bottom.

What that means is that you’re offering lower and lower prices to keep up with your competition because you’re not billing on value, you’re billing straight on hours.

Now that’s the lawyer side. Let’s look at the consumer perspective. From the consumer side hourly rates are absolutely terrifying. So consumers are used to paying for things like Disney Plus, so you shell out your $72 a year, you get pretty much every piece of content that Disney has ever released, that’s cheap, the value proposition is clear, but legal consumers have no clear idea about what lawyers actually do, and that perception is in part formed by years of watching content because if they don’t know what lawyers do they think lawyers are greedy and have personal problems. Watch any lawyer show, that’s what you get out of it.

So at that point you’re throwing an hourly billing arrangement in a consumer’s face and they can quickly realize that it’s uncapped and then watch them start to sweat. So for legal consumers who don’t know what you do or how long it will take you to do it, buying into that process that generates more revenue for you, the longer it takes you to do something, honestly is it any wonder why it’s really hard to convert consumers on traditional law firm payment models.

So when it comes to hourly billing I think the best advice out there is from Bob Barker in Happy Gilmore who says, the price is wrong bitch, so what’s the alternative. There are several, but let’s talk about one this time around. How about subscription services, why not try those.

So essentially subscription services for law firms work the same way that they do for technology vendors. You provide a service that’s charged at a predictable rate on a monthly or annual basis, easy right, but the challenge is figuring out the package of services that you need to offer to make your subscription services work for you and for your clients.

So some law firms will build subscription packages that have rails around them based on hourly work right, here’s the hourly total that we’re going to do for you under this billing model. Some are going to include advice and consultation options, some are going to offer products alongside traditional legal services and we’ll talk more about products in a second, and just like phone services like cellular packages what you can do is you can move people up and down on pricing models based on usage.

So hey, you started out of the Bronze package, now you got to move up to the Silver package because you’re using more of the hours than we thought you would. So let’s give a concrete example, right. Let’s say you offer a package that has a certain set of hours attached to it and maybe you get people who are package members like a hotline or a text number that they can reach you at directly and you respond within four hours, whatever it is, right. Maybe you release a set of courses on your practice area or people can get some asynchronous learning in on what it is that you do. Maybe you have an exclusive podcast just for those subscription holders.

That sort of things more appealing than traditional legal services to some consumers, because they get more and more consistent resources by the way. They have more contact with lawyers as well, and that’s traditionally been a problem for law firms that offer traditional pricing models. And for law firms the fixed items I talked about like a set of courses, a podcast, that’s one and done. You produce it, you release it. That’s easier than providing continuing services in a lot of ways and it’s a nice adjunct to continuing services.

So the same things that make subscription services appealing to other industries should make them appealing to lawyers. It’s the kind of fixed price offering that modern consumers lust after and still lawyers only dabble in subscription services. They cut the core too quickly and then they complain that it would never work in my practice area.

I have seen subscription services work with particular effect in law firms that serve as outside counsel to businesses, because those businesses are starting to root out lawyer inefficiency and they largely prefer fixed costs. So that’s an easier sell. But subscription legal services can work in any practice area where lawyers have control of their pricing.

So we’re talking about not contingency, not practices in which you’ve got statutory billing requirements but everywhere else you can make it work, and the challenge lies in figuring out what the right value prop is. But that’s also the most exhilarating part for an attorney if you look at it that way. There’s no template, which means that you can make the template. The mix is different for each individual practice sure and it’s easier to create a subscription model if your firm specializes in something like outside counsel services, but it’s definitely not impossible to manage a similar trick for other practice areas. You might have to experiment a little bit before you get the price point, right, but the long-term value is worth the effort.

(00:10:07)

So in the battle for the soul of legal pricing, subscription services are a great option for law firms. They can also provide value to clients and lawyers and so tactic lawyers should employ more often, even if they’re doing it in conjunction with traditional billing models.

There are law firms out there that have had success using value billing models by the way for a long time for years, but it’s still such a novel concept for the most part that it continues to represent a significant competitive advantage for lawyers that want to try it out, and that’s a market in efficiency if I have ever seen.

Now stay tuned. Next we’re going to talk to Dorna Moini of Documate, our guest today about another alternative pricing lever for lawyers productization. Hard to say, easier to apply, that’s next.

[Music]

Jared Correia:  As the largest legal only call center in the U.S., Alert Communications helps law firms and legal marketing agencies with new client intake. Alert captures and responds to all leads 24/7/365 as an as an extension of your firm in both Spanish and English. Alert uses proven intake methods customizing responses as needed, which earns the trust of clients and improves client retention. To find out how alert can help your law office, call 866-827-5568 or visit alertcommunications.com/ltn.

[Music]

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[Music]

Jared Correia: Okay everybody, let’s get to the thin cut fried bologna in the middle of the sandwich. I had a lot of fried bologna growing up. Let’s interview our guest. My guest today is Dorna Moini of Documate.

Dorna, welcome to the show. How are you today?

Dorna Moini: I’m very good, Jared. Thank you for having me.

Jared Correia: Good. Thanks for joining us. So I talked a little bit about who you are, I gave your name and your place of work. Can you tell people a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. So I am now the Founder of Documate and at its core Documate is a document automation platform, but it’s really much more. What we do is we allow lawyers to build full-fledged legal products without using code or hiring a developer.

So the easiest analogy is that we allow you to build a turbo tax for anything, so you can build the client-facing legal products.

Jared Correia: Excellent. I want to get to that, because I think you do have an interesting model and talk generally about productization. But let’s start with congratulations being in order for you I think, right. You guys just won the Clio  Launch//Code competition. Congratulations.

Dorna Moini: We did. Actually I have the check just came in the mail, it’s sitting on my desk right here, it’s too big for the mobile to pass that 13:09.

Jared Correia: Is it a big check or is it like —

Dorna Moini: It’s a very medium, normal size check.

Jared Correia: Ah, that’s unfortunate. Did you also get to keep like the large size check they gave you?

Dorna Moini: No because, because of COVID there was no real event. So —

Jared Correia: All right, there was no large size check, yes, the virtual large-sized check.

Dorna Moini: I was talking to the folks at Casetext who won last year and I was like all I wanted to do was be on that stage with that giant check that you can’t hold.

Jared Correia: Well then hopefully they’ll mail you the check and then maybe next year you’ll get some kind of formal presentation. But hey, the money is the same. So let’s get into like the Launch//Code. So first of all like for people who don’t know, what is Clio Launch//Code and why did you decide to do it, other than the obvious hundred thousand reasons?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. So we we’re going to integrate with Clio anyway because a lot of our clients were asking for integrations with Clio. As I said our platform allows you to really build full legal products, but it also allows you to kind of change the way that you practice so that you can give limited scope representation and then transition that into full scope representation at later stages. So that requires you to sort of have more of a full legal practice management system, if you’re going to have the full scope representation and what a lot of our clients were asking was can you pass this data into Clio or can you pull data that’s already in Clio into Documate.

So we built out the integration anyway and we decided, well why not apply to the Launch//Code Competition where Clio looks at all the different integrations that they have and kind of decides which ones are the best. So it’s been really good for us. I mean obviously $100,000 is really nice to have.

Jared Correia: Yeah, yeah.

Dorna Moini: But it’s also just been a really great partnership with Clio and having them support us and partner with us and having the platform that they’ve provided us.

Jared Correia: Yeah, that’s and what is it, six competitors each year?

Dorna Moini: There were — there were five finalists who actually present at Launch//Code from all the people who participate in the competition.

(00:15:05)

Jared Correia: And then it’s just grappling to the death, right?

Dorna Moini: Exactly.

Jared Correia: Yeah. Well, congratulations. You were the sole survivors like Hunger Games.

Dorna Moini: Exactly.

Jared Correia: Now you just give a presentation everybody don’t be concerned, Dorna is safe, all the other vendors are safe. All right, so let’s talk about first the Launch//Code funds, right, like how you are going spend that money, lots of coffee at Starbucks?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. So we are —

Jared Correia: Tons of coffee.

Dorna Moini: Lots of coffee. We were probably really just going to put it back into the company and do what we’re doing already, because we’re building a lot of new features for our clients, specifically lots of data integrations that are coming up with allowing you to push and pull your data and analyze your data in new ways and so really it’s — it’s money that we were already spending that we’re now — we now have to spend.

Jared Correia: You got more of it to spend.

Dorna Moini: Exactly.

Jared Correia: Well congratulations again, that’s a big deal.

Dorna Moini: Although I think our team wants VR headsets, so that’s what they’ve said. They’re like we’re remote, let’s get VR headsets and do all of our meetings through VR. So that option.

Jared Correia: I have a feeling that those are going to be abused however, I mean it’s worth it, right, they work hard.

Dorna Moini: Exactly.

Jared Correia: Even if they’re playing a playstation on that like half the time. Well congratulations seriously. What is that like the third Launch//Code, you’re the third winner?

Dorna Moini: I think it is, yes. It was Tali, then Casetext, then us.

Jared Correia: See I sometimes pay attention. All right, enough about that. You got your money, congrats. Let’s talk about this notion of productization which you discussed and I kind of want to get there a little bit, because what we could do right is we could talk about how document assembly makes lawyers more efficient, how important efficiency is to law firm revenue yadi yadi yada.

I feel like that’s been done, right, people have talked about that. So let’s talk about this notion of document assembly, document automation as a client-facing tool right, because people don’t really think of it that way. Generally speaking like what does that mean to you?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. So productization is to me at least as a lawyer we traditionally take our services and do them on an hourly rate for one client or for a few clients, and what that poses is really a cap on our revenue, because we either have a certain billable hourly rate that we can’t raise that much more or a certain number of hours that we can work per week which in my experience lawyers probably have reached the maximum there as well.

So what you do through productization is turn that information and that, that expertise that you have into a product that you can license to a larger audience of consumers and it becomes much more scalable. It’s sort of like that – people always say, making money while you sleep, that’s hopefully what productization does for you.

Jared Correia: Right, right. Yes. Okay, so, I think like people when they think of products and traditionally products have been like things, right. I feel like I was looking the other day and I was reading like this old article from like The Economist where somebody had defined like a product as something you could like stub your toe on. But now a lot of products are virtual products, right, and a lot of products like kind of dovetail into service as well. So have you found like a cognizable definition for products for law firms? Documents being an obvious one, are there other examples you can think of, applications you see lawyers utilizing to build out products where maybe they haven’t before or is this like the start of something that’s going to get a lot bigger?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. I think there’s kind of a huge range of types of products that you can build, some of them are already out there at pretty high volumes. Like if you think at the most basic level of product, I would think even just the content that you have on your blog, checklists that you provided to your clients, just basic information that’s on your website, that’s level one.

Jared Correia: Could be defined as products, yes.

Dorna Moini: Exactly, yeah, because products don’t necessarily need to be something that you’re monetizing from immediately, they could be — I think when, at least what we — what we talk about with our clients is you should, when you’re building a product you should either be thinking about monetizing it as a standalone product or as a marketing tool. So it could be a lead gen tool that is —

Jared Correia: Building revenue later right?

Dorna Moini: Exactly, yeah, you’re building your credibility, you’re building your brand and when those people actually want legal services they’re going to come to you. So that’s kind of the first level but it goes all the way through products where you’re doing some of the work in-house but you’re generating some of those documents and that work through technology.

Jared Correia: Right.

Dorna Moini: Then you may have pieces where you’re collaborating with clients for that data, so it might be something that’s more of like a client intake that you’re sending out to your clients, but then you’re really manufacturing that product all in-house, but you’ve made them part of that process.

Subscription form sites are another good example, you can range from –you can charge someone $10 a month up to thousands of dollars a month depending on what the scope of the project is.

The Turbo Tax model is another where you have that kind of like compiling all these prior topics that we just talked about all into one, you’re providing the information, you’re providing that rules-based system and you’re giving them the document, and then I think after that it’s really just packaged services.

(00:20:09)

So taking a combination of technology, maybe your some hourly rate services and I haven’t seen anyone do this yet, but I’ve always thought like why not package that up with like court reporting services and other professions that aren’t even necessarily just the lawyers.

Jared Correia: Right. So like what’s really interesting here is that we’re talking about all the applications in place here but the percentage of law firms that actually do this is really small. And if you look in legal tech generally, not necessarily lawyers specifically, you’ve got a company like LegalZoom, right, that’s been around for forever, worth tons of money and they’re doing similar things like products, documents also attaching that to service, right. If you’re somebody who’s a client or a customer of LegalZoom, you get access to a lawyer if you want that.

So why and I feel like to ask this every week, why have lawyers been so late in adopting this, like why couldn’t lawyers have done that? There’s no reason law firms can’t do LegalZoom, right?

Dorna Moini: Definitely. I mean, I’m going to give you some anecdotal — an anecdotal response, but I think it’s because —

Jared Correia: Oh good. Let’s do story time, this is exciting fear, right.

Dorna Moini: I think it’s because of the fear, because —

Jared Correia: The basis for all the best fairy tales, fear.

Dorna Moini: Exactly, exactly, because in the early when we had first started I got a lot more questions about can I do this, is this legal? Am I forming an attorney-client relationship every time I put something on the internet?

Jared Correia: Right.

Dorna Moini: Whereas now —

Jared Correia: So risk-averse.

Dorna Moini: Those questions are going down. Less people I get — I don’t, I don’t think I’ve gotten that question at all in the past two weeks. So —

Jared Correia: That question is being asked, people are like there’s a pandemic on, I got to get mine.

Dorna Moini: Exactly. And you know LegalZoom has also fought a lot of these battles across the country in multiple states and is continuing to operate.

Jared Correia: Right, right, which law firms could not have done. This is like an individual law firm could not have waged like a national legal battle to get this stuff looking more viable from the perspective of course. I think those are all great points by the way.

But what it sounds like you’re saying in part and correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, is that this is a good time for law firms to do this, because this environment is a little bit more mature than it has been?

Dorna Moini: Yeah and also everything is just all over the place right now, everything that we’re doing is new, nothing is, is the norm. So I think both lawyers and clients are more willing to experiment with new models because they’re realizing that we’re living in a new world.

Jared Correia: Yes, for the most part many are, many are not. So I hope folks out there are listening to you. So let’s talk about this from a logistical perspective, right, this is more conceptual like can you do it, should you do it, would you do it, how do you do it. Part of the deal here is that if you’re going to utilize a document generation tool as a client-facing tool in some way, part of it is collecting data from sources, collecting data from clients, spitting out an output on the other end. So how does that work?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. So on Documate the way that that works is you come onto the platform and you create a series of questions. So I don’t know if I have told you this before, but the idea for Documate came from my own practice and I wanted to build out a tool for domestic violence survivors, who I was representing at the time pro bono.

Jared Correia: That’s so noble of you. I had not heard that story before. Good for you.

Dorna Moini: Oh okay. Yeah, so I am not an engineer and I didn’t know how to build that out on my own, but I did have on a Word document which engineers just balk at when they see that I had this all on a Word document.

Jared Correia: You’re like I have an Excel spreadsheet for you.

Dorna Moini: Exactly. I was like here’s the bullet point that shows where the logic is inserted, but I had a document with all the logic that I wanted for this kind of Turbo Tax for domestic violence survivors, and I gave it to my now co-founder and I was like let’s build this Turbo Tax for domestic violence survivors. We built that but that’s what Documate is now, is it allows you — instead of handing it over to an engineer, to just input it into the Documate system yourself to create this without ever hiring an engineer.

So you create a series of questions, you add logic to all of those questions, conditional logic to say, I want certain questions to appear or not appear depending on how prior questions were answered, takes you down different decision tree paths to really build an expert system there and then you connect those all to the documents. It doesn’t matter how complex those documents are, whether they’re Word documents, PDF documents, you can add all kinds of logic and calculations in there as well and then you launch to your clients.

Jared Correia: And then the client piece of it, right, is the last part of it I want to discuss, can you do it, how do you do it, how do consumers respond. So it seems to me this is legal consumers where they are right, they want speed, they want expediency, they want to be able to pay less for legal services and this is a more transparent process and consumers don’t necessarily understand legal process like lawyers do.

(00:25:07)

So from my perspective this hits a lot of boxes as far as legal consumers are concerned, has that been your experience? Do you find that this is valuable for law firms in terms of building lasting client relationships, in terms of like how they market their practices, what are your thoughts on that?

Dorna Moini: Yeah. I think that it’s especially nice when the law firm provides the product and gives the client options as to what they want. So you provide your DIY service where someone can come onto your website and do everything on their own and then you also provide the full fledged legal communication and interaction and hourly service alongside that, so that if the client is the type of client who wants to go to the grocery store and check out on their own they have their option.

Jared Correia: Right.

Dorna Moini: They’re the type of person who wants to chat with you a little bit more then they have that option. And that brings them into their comfort level. I mean it’s a lot of where like legal design thinking thing comes from is thinking about the client and their environment and their needs and if you provide both of those, those become long-lasting relationships.

Jared Correia: Yeah absolutely. Those are some great. Well Dorna, I could talk to you all day as you know and we’ve worked together here and there. I’m very happy to see your success. So seriously congratulations on that. But we’ve run out of time. So thanks so much to Dorna Moini of Documate for being our guest today.

Dorna, can you remind people about who you are, what you do and how you can be contacted?

Dorna Moini: Yes, I can be found at Twitter @DocumateLaw, is our handle. I monitor all that, so you can message us there. You can also email me at [email protected], we are .org, we don’t have the .com unless you want Xerox to hand that over to us. And our website is www.documate.org.

Jared Correia: Awesome. Thanks again. So we’re going to take one more final sponsor break, so you can hear more about what our sponsors can do for your law practice. Then stay tuned for the Rump Roast, it’s even more supple than the roast beast.

[Music]

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[Music]

Jared Correia: Welcome to the rear end of The Legal Toolkit. The Rump Roast, it’s  a grab bag of short form topics, games, trivia of my choosing. Today, we’re going to bring back our guest Dorna Moini of Documate for some trivia. How are you feeling Dorna, are you ready?

Dorna Moini: I’m ready but you know I was a little bit terrified about the trivia portion. I think –

Jared Correia: That’s okay, it’s okay to be terrified.

Dorna Moini: I think you have eased my mind maybe.

Jared Correia: Use, use your fear. Okay. So as you will have heard Dorna, audience Alex Trebek, the late great long time host of Jeopardy!, who seemed to be hitting his stride at 80-years-old with like the whole GOAT competition, he just passed away, sadness all around.

Dorna Moini: RIP.

Jared Correia: So I wanted to play, yeah RIP Alex. So I wanted to play a quick round of Jeopardy! in his honor. So in order to fit our time constraints what I have done is tweak this a little bit. I’m going to offer Dorna five Double Jeopardy! Categories at the usual dollar amount, and we’ll see how she does.

So quick aside, about 15 years ago my wife and I and my sister-in-law we kind of crashed a retirement community in Florida and I like absolutely ran the table on these old people in Jeopardy and they were so mad. I almost didn’t get out alive, but I have my lifetime subscription to the denture cream company to satiate any issues I have –

Dorna Moini: 29:36 fight.

Jared Correia: No, and I haven’t needed denture cream as of yet, so if anybody needs some just let me know. So categories, category number one, Potent Potables for 200, Famous Horsemen for 400, the pen is mightier for 600, Beatles lyrics for 800, current U.S. Presidents for — actually I’m not even going to touch that one, let’s do something else, Potpourri for a thousand.

(00:30:08)

Dorna, do you have a category you would like to take from that group.

Dorna Moini: I’m going to go big. I’m going to Potpourri for a thousand.

Jared Correia: Potpourri for a thousand. I love it. I’m going to keep track of your score by the way, no pressure. Okay, the answer, I’m going to do a terrible Alex Trebek but we’re going to go with it anyway.

This haircut got its name from his popularity among rowers, especially at Ivy League Colleges.

Dorna Moini: What is the mullet.

Jared Correia: Oh good guess, but I didn’t say Southern colleges, no, I’m sorry, my Southern friends. Crew cut, the crew cut, the crew team, I’m keeping track of your scores, assume this well.

Dorna Moini: I didn’t even know if I knew but crew cut, was a haircut, I thought it was just a t-shirt cut.

Jared Correia: Oh like crew t-shirts, oh all right, okay we’re all over the board here, I like it. In the true spirit of Potpourri. All right, so that wasn’t the best start, but let’s keep going. You can make up this money.

Dorna Moini: Is that a minus 1000, that I see here?

Jared Correia: Yeah. Sorry, sorry.

Dorna Moini: Okay.

Jared Correia: I had to.

Dorna Moini: Really start it off.

Jared Correia: You got the question wrong.

Dorna Moini: This is like, this is sort of like golf, like mini golf, you know I just aim for the highest score.

Jared Correia: All right, let’s do that. We’ll turn it around. All right, what do you got next for me?

Dorna Moini: Let’s start at the early end and do Potent Potables for 200.

Jared Correia: Potent Potables for 200. The answer is in 1960 this brewery introduced Harp Lager.

Dorna Moini: Oh my goodness, you said this going to be easy. I don’t even know breweries. I don’t drink beer.

Jared Correia: You don’t drink enough. Now just — you can take a guess, you want a hint, I will give you a hint.

Dorna Moini: All right, let’s say —

Jared Correia: Harp, Harp is an Irish beer.

Dorna Moini: Oh, why is it escaping my mind. I’ve been to the brewery in Dublin.

Jared Correia: Oh man.

Dorna Moini: Guinness, what is Guinness.

Jared Correia: Yes, Guinness is correct, all right, you’re on the board.

Dorna Moini: All right, minus 800 now.

Jared Correia: Yep. Next, next you got — you still got Famous Horsemen, the pen is mightier, and Beatles lyrics on the board.

Dorna Moini: Let’s do Famous Horsemen for 400.

Jared Correia: Famous Horsemen for 400. The answer is from a word meaning adventurer or vagabond these were the Russian Army’s elite horsemen, who were they? Super easy questions, right?

Dorna Moini: Super easy. You told me not to be worried.

Jared Correia: I know I lied.

Dorna Moini: I have no idea honestly. I don’t know.

Jared Correia: Ready?

Dorna Moini: Some —

Jared Correia: The Cossacks, Cossacks.

Dorna Moini: Oh my gosh, I should have known this, because I just watched Borat.

Jared Correia: Sorry.

Dorna Moini: But I guess everything you see in Borat you think it’s fake.

Jared Correia: Right.

Dorna Moini: So I didn’t think that was a real.

Jared Correia: That is not — that is not fake. All right, you still got time to redeem yourself. You got two questions left. We’ve got Beatles lyrics and the Pen is Mightier.

Dorna Moini: All right, let’s do the Pen is Mightier.

Jared Correia: Okay. The Pen is Mightier for 600. All right, you can redeem yourself here a little bit as well. I have a theme here. We got another Irish question, all right here we go. Answer, Virginia Woolf and this famous Irish author were both born in 1882 and both died in 1941. This is my, it’s my favorite author, so that probably doesn’t mean anything to you, but.

Dorna Moini: Who is James Joyce?

Jared Correia: Yes, James Joyce, author of Finnegans Wake. Okay, last question for you is Beatles lyrics for 800. And fortunately for you it’s a daily double. You currently sit at negative 600.

Dorna Moini: Oh excellent.

Jared Correia: Wager whatever you would like, let’s say up to 2000.

Dorna Moini: I’m going to wager the full 2000 here.

Jared Correia: All right, I’m going to give you 2000 to wager on Beatles lyrics. Here we go. Answer, it’s been a hard day’s night I should be sleeping like a, this.

Dorna Moini: It’s working like a dog sleeping, sleeping like a log.

Jared Correia: Yes, correct. Excellent.

Dorna Moini: My sister would be proud, she’s — she’s very into the Beatles and would be really disappointed if I didn’t know songs.

Jared Correia: I love The Beatles, my wife hates The Beatles so I don’t get it. All right so.

Dorna Moini: Who hates the Beatles.

Jared Correia: I know, I know. The good news is you’re at plus 1400 now, and now it’s time for final Jeopardy! Are you ready for the final Jeopardy question?

Dorna Moini: I’m ready.

Jared Correia: The category is Horsies, and the question is, are Horsies pretty.

Dorna Moini: Sounds like a trick question. I will have to think on this one.

Jared Correia: It is not a trick question.

Dorna Moini: What is yes.

Jared Correia: Horsies are pretty. I forgot to ask you what you’re going to wager, so we’re going to give you 2800 and double it.

Dorna Moini: Oh excellent, I love it.

Jared Correia: All right. Hey you finished up with like 3000, that’s really impressive.

Dorna Moini: That’s really impressive given the terrible start.

Jared Correia: Yeah, you just redeemed yourself terrifically. So add that to your Clio total right, 103,000, Legal Talk Network will have a check out to you. Sorry, sorry, they’re going to pull me off the air if I say that.

Okay, you did a great job. But anyway Dorna, you’ve been a lot of fun, you were a good sport. Thank you for playing and thank you for coming on today.

(00:35:07)

Dorna Moini: Thank you so much Jared for having me.

Jared Correia: My pleasure. All right, that will do it for another episode of The Legal Toolkit podcast, where we always answer in the form of a question.

[Music]

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