COVID-19 Resources for Lawyers
Featured Guest
Gyi Tsakalakis

Gyi Tsakalakis is a former lawyer and the founder of AttorneySync, an online legal marketing agency, to help lawyers...

Your Host
Jared Correia

Jared D. Correia, Esq. is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which offers subscription-based law firm business...

Episode Notes

You know what we’re all pretty tired of? The same old generic interview show. Trust us, we’re right there with you. And thus Legal Toolkit is reborn! Jared Correia welcomes Gyi Tsakalakis, legal marketer and host of the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing podcast, on the first episode of the new Legal Toolkit. Jared opens the show by highlighting the way jurisdictions are hurting the industry with restrictions on branding and how following these rules can lead to results both comical and dishonest (2:05). Then Gyi and Jared sit down to discuss some of the most important and accessible tools and tactics lawyers should be using to up their marketing game (10:03). Finally, stick around for the first round of the Rump Roast, where Jared and Gyi play a version of the Name Game (28:04).

Gyi Tsakalakis is a legal marketer and founder of AttorneySync.

Special thanks to our sponsors ScorpionTimeSolvAbby Connect and Alert Communications.

Need more than just Jared’s dulcet tones to keep you going?  Check out Jared’s latest Spotify playlist!  This episode’s theme: Songs by Bands Whose Names are Acronyms


Legal Toolkit

Branding Your Firm, Tools and Tactics to Up Your Marketing, and the “Name Game”



Jared D. Correia:  Welcome to another episode of the award-winning Legal Toolkit podcast only on the Legal Talk Network.  Twice a month, we’re delivering law practice management tips and tricks directly to your ear holes.  My name is Jared Correia and because Kevin Hart wasn’t available, I’m your host.  I’m the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, a business management consulting service for attorneys.  Find us online at  I’m the COO of Gideon Software, Inc. We build chatbots so law firms can convert more leads.  You can find out more about Gideon at  But before we get rolling, let me take a moment to thank my mom for listening to every episode.  Thanks, mom.  I’d also like to thank our sponsors.  They’re the reason you’re listening to this show right now.

We would like to thank Alert Communications for sponsoring this podcast.  If any law firm is looking for call, intake or retainer services available 24/7, 365 just call (866)-827-5568.  Scorpion is the leading provider of marketing solutions for the legal industry.  With nearly 20 years of experience serving attorneys, Scorpion can help grow your practice.  Learn more at  Abby Connect has delivered premium live receptionist and answering services to lawyers since 2006.  You can try them out for free at TimeSolv is the number one web-based time and billing software for lawyers.  Providing solutions since 1999, TimeSolv provides the most comprehensive billing features for law firms big and small,

Welcome to the first episode of the new Legal Toolkit podcast.  This is the rebooted show.  We’re doing things a little bit differently.  Now, we used to have like an entire interview format for the show, but now, what we’re going to do is I’m going to start with a monologue.  We’re going to interview a guest, and then, I got a special treat for you at the end.  But before we get to any of those things, I want to talk about some issues in legal practice and then, some issues in other areas of life that I just have an interest in talking about.

So, today, we’re going to start with a conversation about law firm names which is maybe more interesting than you ever thought possible.  So, naming a law firm is actually a thing, right?  And if you’re a lawyer or a consumer of legal services, more often consumers of legal services, you know that law firms usually have terrible names.  Let me just give you a sample of some actual law firm names.  I’m not making any of these up.  Boring & Boring that sounds exciting, right, or not.  Pain & Fears, LLP; Low Ball & Lynch; Bicker & Bicker, it’s kind of appropriate, right?  And then, we have the immortal Allen, Allen, Allen & Allen.  It’s a lot of Allen’s.  I’m guessing that’s a family-based law firm.  And then, this is my favorite one of all, Ziffren, Brittenham, Branca, Fischer, Gilbert & Zwick’s(ph) Stiffelman.  Zwick’s Stiffelman has a little apostrophe, you know, LLP, right?  That’s the whole name of the firm.  I’m sure that URL is very easy to spell, right?

So, what kind of information do law firms like this offer to legal consumers?  None, right?  Unless I know Attorney Zwick’s Stiffelman, that’s probably not going to be a super appealing law firm name for me, and it doesn’t necessarily tell me anything about the brand of the firm.  Certainly, it doesn’t tell me anything the firm does, right?  Consumers don’t necessarily want to know who you are broadly speaking, they want to know what you do, what your experience is.

Now, brand names like Coca-Cola, those tend to better communicate a unique sales proposition, right?  That differentiates you from the market in many ways.  And brand names end up becoming synonymous with brands.  So, if I said Amazon, you immediately know what I’m talking about.  If I say Netflix, you immediately know what I’m talking about.  Netflix also was named after like internet movies, right?  I say, Netflix, that’s pretty easy to conjure.  And I talked about Coke before, right?  So, the inventor of coke was Dr. Pemberton, and the original formula used helping(ph) with cocaine.  So, if Coca-Cola was called Dr. Pemberton’s cocaine tonic, is that something you would be interested in purchasing?  Probably not.  What if Pep Boys was called Rosenfeld, Strauss, Jackson and Radavitz, PLLC because that’s what Pep Boys would be called if it was a law firm.  Because those four dudes were the people who named Pep Boys.  Those are the Pep Boys, right?

So, it begs the question like, if all this is true, why don’t law firms use brand names?  Well, let me tell you, it’s not entirely their fault.  Some state bars and court systems that apply the ethics rules in certain jurisdictions, they don’ actually allow law firms to use brand names.


So, believe it or not, there are three different types of rule sets for naming law firms.  The first category is, brand names are okay.  So, you can have a name for a law firm that doesn’t include your own name, right?  That’s allowed in Massachusetts and California to large jurisdictions.  And interestingly enough, New York just allowed this as well.  Massive jurisdiction, right?  And that was a change from the old rule, which didn’t allow brand names.

The other set is — or the second out of three is, brand names are absolutely not okay ever.  Some of the states that don’t allow brand names for law firms is all in Rhode Island, Ohio and Texas.  Some other states take kind of a wishy-washy approach, right?  The brand names are sometimes okay, or they’re kind of okay, right?  So, some states allow you to have brand URLs.  Some states allow you to include lawyer’s names in addition to a brand, right?  But it has to be on like the same byline, right?  These are just workarounds.

So, the question is, why, right?  Why do you have to use these workarounds?  So, attorneys say different approaches, right?  Some attorneys abide by the rules and they follow the workaround, but some attorneys just say, “You know what, I want to use a brand name and I’m going to do it.  Rules be damned,” right?  But the problem is not the attorneys having to develop workarounds or try to skirt the rules, right?  The problem is that the rules are stupid, and they need to be repealed like everywhere.

So, let’s talk a second about the justification for rules like this.  The first notion is that like this helps in terms of consumer confusion, right?  We’re protecting the public. In the first instance, ethics rules don’t want law firms to sound like legal aid organizations, or legal institutions like a court, right?  Or legal aid society.  But if I’m a law firm, and I’m calling myself legal aid of Denver.  Or if I’m naming my law firm The Montana Supreme Court.  I’ll pretty soon figure out that that’s a terrible strategy for marketing.  Besides, with the prevalence of web search and all the content that’s out there online derived from content marketing, consumers have plenty of ways to gain information about a business including law firms.  So, why not let the market decide?

Consumers actually have less confusion as I’ll talk about in the second — when lawyers are allowed to use brand names.  The rules are also grounded in this notion of false or misleading advertising, being prohibited, right?  But what’s false or misleading about a business that better defines its purpose?  Isn’t that actually less false or misleading than the law firm that uses its founders’ names, right?  What if Toys R Us was called Joe’s, I wouldn’t know there were toys there.  I just know some dude Joe owns the store.  Isn’t that even less false or misleading than a law firm that uses like a dead founder’s name, which is allowed, right?  Where is Andrew Johnson?  He’s dead.  Now, are’t these half-measure rules like branded URLs and tag lines, really just admissions that the rules need to go in the first place?  And also, these rules are a little bit sexist, right?

So, what if I’m a female lawyer who gets married and changes my name?  I now have to change the name of the firm?  Rebrand it?  Go through all the effort it takes to redirect URLs and move content around, that’s not fair.  So, the truth of the matter is that brand names offer so much value.  It’s time that law firms everywhere were able to access them.  And as I’ve been saying about post-pandemic America for a long time now, if not now, when, right?  Now, is a good opportunity to change these old school institutions and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Well, I’m glad I could get that off my chest.  I feel just like Jessica Lange from the season of American Horror Story Asylum which is the best season of American Horror Story, by the way.  Now, let’s take a moment to listen to a word from our sponsors and we’ll be right back.

Now more than ever, an effective marketing strategy is one of the most important things your law firm can have, and Scorpion can help.  With nearly 20 years of experience serving the legal industry, Scorpion has proven methods to help you get the high value cases you deserve.  Join thousands of attorneys across the country who have turned to Scorpion for effective marketing and technology solutions.  For a better way to grow your practice, visit

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Okay, it’s about time to get to the Cains Sandwich Spread in the middle of this year’s sandwich.  Let’s interview our guest.  My guest today is Gyi Tsakalakis of AttorneySync.  Gyi, thanks for joining us.  How are you today?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Jared, I am so well.  I’m so happy to be here and be a part of your sandwich.

Jared D. Correia:  Thank you, sir.  We can compare our respective hat and sweatshirt collections later.  But for now, can you tell people what you do and what company you are with?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Sure.  So, I’m a licensed attorney, but I haven’t practiced now, gosh, in over a decade and I founded a digital agency so that we could help lawyers navigate the exciting world of internet marketing.

Jared D. Correia:  I feel like that is like a PSA from like 20 years ago, right?  The exciting world of internet marketing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  Learn more or maybe it’s like on the community college brochure.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yes.  That’s really in fact that we’re — that’s who our marketing department is made up of is community college marketers.

Jared D. Correia:  Do you love Fortran?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Fortran.  Now, you just dated yourself.

Jared D. Correia:  I’m old, man.  I don’t hide that.  All right.  So, let me let me ask you this because you also got another thing going on which is you also host a podcast on the Legal Talk Network called Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  That’s what I spend most of my time doing.

Jared D. Correia:  Right.  Like eight hours a day at least, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, just the preparation, the voice coaching.

Jared D. Correia:  It’s a lot.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  The exercise, stay in shape.  It’s always a commitment.

Jared D. Correia:  So, people should listen to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing, why?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Because Conrad and I go deep, expose some of the things that people don’t like to talk about, and like I plan to do with you today, have a blast.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, the exciting world of internet marketing with you and Conrad Saam.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  We talk about Fortran mostly.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah.  It’s Lunch Hour Legal Marketing:  Fortran Edition.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, we actually just —

Jared D. Correia:  That’s not just great.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  It’s just Lunch Hour Legal Marketing: there’s nothing else after that.

Jared D. Correia:  Nice.  I feel the suspense.  All right.  I want to talk to you about marketing, shocker, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Okay.  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  I know you’re a guy who uses and recommends a lot of marketing tools.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yes.

Jared D. Correia:  So, we’re at like the end of 2020.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yes.

Jared D. Correia:  It’s been a great year, obviously.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Beautiful year.

Jared D. Correia:  I’ve really enjoyed the year.  So, let’s try to end on a high note if possible.  What are you recommending these days to people or suggesting to people is like your top marketing tools, software, hardware, whatever?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  A computer?

Jared D. Correia:  No.  Yes, everyone got a computer.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  You don’t have a computer.  Now is the time to be out of the curve.  You know, some of the traditional ones that I think if you’re going to be a sophisticated search marketer, Google Search Console, Google analytics, those are no-brainers.  The good news is, they’re both free.  But those are going to be your windows inside the soul of Google like essentially how people find your site with search engines.  But beyond that, you know, CRM I think is the thing that customer relationship management, client relationship management, that’s the one tool that I think you’ve really — if you don’t have that implemented.  And I’m not talking about Microsoft Outlook here.  I ask people, “What’s your CRM?”  “Oh it’s Outlook.”

Jared D. Correia:  People really say that?  Wow.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  I tell some of the legal tech vendors, I’m like, “You know your biggest competitor is Outlook.”

Jared D. Correia:  That’s probably true, actually.  Seriously.  Well, before we get into CRM, Google Analytics, you talked about Google Search Console.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yes.

Jared D. Correia:  Is that stuff that like your average attorney could handle on their own?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I think so.

Jared D. Correia:  So, could you talk a little bit about what that is and how it works just in case?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  Like I think people have a general idea of what Google Analytics is, but I don’t know a lot of people who are conversing in Google Search Console.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Sure.  Search Console, we’ll start with Analytics.

Jared D. Correia:  Okay.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  So, Analytics, JavaScript you put on your website or you have your website person put it on your website.  And it basically tracks where people come from to get to your website and what they do once they’re on your website.  That’s essentially it.  And it can be — like you said, it can be — it can seem overwhelming, but if you focus on the pages that are turning into phone calls, form fills at the very least.  If you’re a blogger, you can track people that came to your blog, read your post, and requested — contacted you, or if you’ve got call tracking on that called you up.  And so, that’s some pretty basic stuff.  You can go on to Fiverr or Upwork or a million of these freelance sites and have somebody, if you’re not very code sappy, drop the code on your site and build you some reports.  And so, very inexpensive, it’s free to use Google Analytics.

Search Console is Google’s own system data.  And one of the reasons it’s valuable is because years ago, Google Analytics took away the impression data, the query data.  So, you can’t tell — you don’t know the keywords that people have used to search to find your website.  But in Search Console, they give you that back.  And so, you want to know like what kind of volume is there for Chicago divorce lawyer?


Jared D. Correia:  Yeah.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And where did your pages show up?  And how many times are people searching that?  And what theme of questions do people have?  That’s the place to go.  And so, it should help inform your content strategy, like what should you be writing about?  What should you be putting on your website?  And I guess, the third one, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention is Google My Business.  Again, free.  You can see, I’m kind of a Google fan person.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes.  Well, Google has a lot of stuff.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Until they break it up, it’s Google’s world.

Jared D. Correia:  Right.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And so, Google My Business free tool.  But Google My Business is valuable because it’s often the instance of first impression.  In fact, I know, now that we’re recording this in this date, I don’t know how the timing works out with this.  But they just announced Clio now has a Google My Business integration.

Jared D. Correia:  Right. As of two days ago.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Two days ago.

Jared D. Correia:  — recording, right?  And I got to look at it today, like it’s pretty convenient.  You just like plug in the info.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  That’s a very savvy move.  But when people search on your name, your firm’s name, or terms like we call them non-brand search queries in the marketing, I don’t even know what you call it marketing —

Jared D. Correia:  Ecosphere?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Ecosphere?

Jared D. Correia:  I’m throwing that out there.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  I was thinking it’s like buzzwords, jargon.  Jargon was the word I was looking for.

Jared D. Correia:  Right.  Not ecosphere.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  Jargon ecosphere, you know, those are the same.  Google My Business, because that’s what feeds the Google Local Pack results.  So, those little — if you put your phone out right now and do a search for like whatever your practice area is plus city and lawyer, you get those little map results.  And they’ve got reviews, and click to call, and your hours of operation, and you can put videos in there and all sorts of stuff.  And to me, that’s a must to do for — you know, if you’re a consumer-facing lawyer like must do.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, and that’s kind of like a directory profile in essence, right?  You’re just filling out information about your firm.  That’s easy.  And when you talk about like code, right?  It’s just like a snippet of code that you’re embedding in your website.  We’re not talking about like coding your website any differently.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, and that’s only for Analytics.  Google My Business, if you need any code, you just literally fill out a form, enter your information, put some pictures in there, maybe you record some videos.  But really, really effective for — okay, the thing I always say is like I don’t care who you are, or what practice area you’re in, someone that gets referred to you is going to go look you up online.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And what they see there is going to make a difference, make some kind of impression for a lot of people that start — search starts in Google and Google My Business has got the premium real estate there.

Jared D. Correia:  I think you’re right.  Like even if you’re doing like content marketing and you get to look at like, “Oh, this blog has a hundred times more views than this other post,” you slap a contact us form on there.  That’s like simple to do and probably generates more leads and conversions for you.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, and I think some of this marketing stuff like lawyers get because it’s like the traditional notions of demonstrating expertise, and making connections so like they know who they can trust stuff.  And so, your website, your blog, all this stuff now plays a role in those conversations.

Jared D. Correia:  So, let’s talk about CRM, Customer Relation Management.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  CRM.  Yes.

Jared D. Correia:  So, you recommend that as well?  I mean, there are free CRMs out there.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  HubSpot is a free — yeah, HubSpot’s got a free one.

Jared D. Correia:  Right.  HubSpot’s got a free one.  I also like Agile CRM, which is like gives you a lot of features for nothing, basically.  And I know Streak is available.  It’s like a Google plugin.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I like Active Campaign.

Jared D. Correia:  Active Campaign is good.  I use that one for my business.  So what CRM like what should people be considering when they buy some product like that and what should they do with it?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  So, the starting point is, I say CRM like you can call it marketing automation or even just some of these email marketing tools.  So, it’s not fair to — I don’t know, the people at Mailchimp would disagree.  So, if this is sponsored by Mailchimp, —

Jared D. Correia:  I don’t believe it is.  Feel free to trash Mailchimp.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  No, I like Mailchimp.  I was just saying that —

Jared D. Correia:  No, Mailchimp is good, yeah.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I don’t know if they would consider themselves a CRM at this stage.  But in any event, the biggest feature thing is to be able to do some kind of email automation. Email automation, you got to think about it, because most lawyers have, whether it’s former clients, people they know professionally colleagues, family, friends.  These people want to get, hopefully for the most part, if you’re doing your job, they want to get messages from you.  And as long as you’re not like sending out a crappy law firm newsletter every week, or a month, or a day, whatever you’re doing.

Jared D. Correia:  Daily, probably not a good idea.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Here’s an idea, why don’t we automate like sending people that are on this list like, “Happy 4th of July,” “Happy New Year,” “Happy Halloween,” “Hey, just checking in,” right?  “Hey, it’s been a while, checking in,” and you can automate that.  And so, again, I know some listeners are going to be like, “That’s craziness.  You should be sending handwritten notes to people,” and I’m like, “Yeah, go ahead and do that too.”  But people’s attention spans are very short.


You want to stay top of mind, you want to stay connected.  And so, the email automation component of the CRM I think is probably the most valuable thing.  Yeah, some of them they’ve got more sophisticated pipelines, you know.  As you know, I’m an advisor to Lawmatics.  And so, Lawmatics is a CRM and you can move —

Jared D. Correia:  They have a really nice product like that thing is tight.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I think it’s a really good job too, but I’m obviously very biased.  But then you can move people through stages.  So, you have initial intake and then, retained and then there’s all sorts of things.  That’s an additional layer to it.  But I think if you talk basics from a marketing standpoint, email automation.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah.  And I think what’s funny is that like these things all have names, right?  Like email marketing, CRM, marketing automation.  But they’re all kind of coalescing into the same feature set it seems to me.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  I think there’s a lot of consolidation that’s already happened.  I think a lot more is coming because I know that you’re very experienced in the software world, you don’t want to have 500 different software that all you got to go and create all these zaps altogether.  Wouldn’t it just be nice if you just log in one time and then you’ve got your intake being done, you’ve got your virtual receptionists built in there, you’ve got you know some of your basic — the practice management thing, I think there is a line of demarcation because a lot of the CRMs like they don’t have all the fanciness of like practice management features.

Jared D. Correia:  Right, right.  I agree.  And it’s lead versus client too which is a different kind of world.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.

Jared D. Correia:  But it’s interesting that you bring all that up because like just recently, there’s been so many tech acquisitions in legal.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, it’s been crap.

Jared D. Correia:  We’re calling it pandemic money.  It’s just flying around, right?  Like my case rocket matter, they were both just acquired.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yup.

Jared D. Correia:  Like there’s so many companies.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  We’re going to see more of that — money’s coming in.  I always for whatever reason, I don’t know, just sports ball analogy, but I think that we’re in the end of the second quarter.  So, we’re coming up on half time on the consolidation.  So, there’s already been a couple waves, but there’s a lot more coming.

Jared D. Correia:  Right.  Now, that’s a good way to describe it.  So, like I guess, how does that affect them?  Like what I’m seeing is that there was all — so, Clio and Rocket Matter came out of like 10 years ago.  Everybody was like, “Damn, that’s a good idea, let’s all build productivity software,” and then, there’s like 300 case managed software.  And now, it’s like, “Oh hey, nobody built any marketing technology.”  So, it seems to me that like the next wave in legal tech is going to be the building of a lot of these marketing client-facing lead management technologies, and that’s where we’re going to be in like the next decade.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  The oversimplified version is that the builders who are building things that are going to make clients’ lives better and lawyers’ lives better where they’re able to find software to support that.  Those are the ones they’re going to win.  And so, from a client experience standpoint, if the client has to like use a bunch of different software to pay, versus send you a message, versus sign a document, that’s not the great experience.  If you can go to one place and do that, great for the client, great for lawyer, more efficient for the lawyer.  So, I think those will be who the winners are there.  And I still think it’s a very — like I said earlier where we said you still are competing with Microsoft and Microsoft Teams and Google and yada, yada, yada.  But I think, consolidation is coming and I think that ultimately, I think, it’s going to drive more innovation in the space which is a good thing because as you and I have been doing this a while, you see some of this when we used to have tradeshows.  You see vendors in there and —

Jared D. Correia:  What are those?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.  You’d see the technology you’d be like, “Yeah, this is — I mean, there’s stuff outside of legal that is just better.”  And I think that now, it’s going to force the legal tech sector to really up their game because it’s becoming more competitive.  So, I think it’s a good thing.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, it’s funny.  People are like, “Hey, what’s the Salesforce of legal?  I’m like, “Salesforce?”

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.

Jared D. Correia:  We’ll wrap up with one last question.  Like I asked you for some tools and then we went and talked about a bunch of different stuff, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  Can you give people like a bonus tool that they might not have thought about that they could be using in their practice?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Interesting.

Jared D. Correia:  I totally sprung this on you, so I’m going to talk a little bit so you can think.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  No, that’s fine.

Jared D. Correia:  Now I feel bad.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I would say call tracking software.  So, CallRail —

Jared D. Correia:  Right, I think that’s a good one.  Yup.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, anything that does anything that holds your marketing and advertising, time and money, accountable for a result.  I think that’s a big missing piece.  And so, that’s another one when you’re doing a CRM evaluation, do they have integrations with Google Analytics?  Do they have integrations with call tracking systems?  How are you going to measure the effect?  So, those measurement tools I think are really, really valuable.  So, yeah, I like CallRail, but there’s Invoca, there’s Call Tracking Metrics.  I think there’s actually some ones in specific and legal that I should probably become more familiar with.


But I really like CallRail.  Anything that you — the jargon word here is dynamic number insertion.  So, essentially, it generates a unique call tracking number based on session visit to your website.  So, you can actually track back.  So, you can be like, “This call came from someone who found my blog post by searching on Google,” and that’s where you can start to actually make some of that return on investment or return ad spend analysis.

Jared D. Correia:  I see a lot of like marketing agencies using the call tracking, but very few like lawyers and law firms that are managing their own marketing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.  It’s not that expensive.  I mean, a pool of eight numbers, it’s like 5, 10 ten bucks, but you know, it depends on — oftentimes, they charge you based on volume.  So, if you do high volume call, it can be a little more.  But it’s a no-brainer.  I mean, track those calls.

Jared D. Correia:  Absolutely.  All right.  So, that’s a good point to end on.  So, we’re done with the interview section, but we’re going to bring you back.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  That was the boring part.

Jared D. Correia:  Now for the fun part.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Just what I’m really here for.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah.  So, thank again.  My guest today, Gyi Tsakalakis of AttorneySync.  Can you remind folks about how to contact you, find you online as well as AttorneySync?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, just spell my name out, it’s really easy.

Jared D. Correia:  Just yeah, pretty quick.  Sound it out.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  So, you just sound it out.  Gyi Tsakalakis.  Now, go to attorney or if you go to Twitter, if you use Twitter, you start typing gyit, there’s a good chance that I’ll pop up.  My little face will pop up because it’s just such a weird combination of letters.  But I waste a lot of time on Twitter, so, see you there.

Jared D. Correia:  Oh man, tell me about it.  All right, thanks Gyi, much appreciated.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Thank you, Jared.

Jared D. Correia:  We’ll take one final sponsor break so you can hear more about our sponsors and what they can do for your law practice.  Then, stay tuned for the inaugural edition of the rump roast.  It’s even more supple than the roast beast.

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Welcome back.  We’re here at the rear end of the Legal Toolkit, also known as the rump roast, that’s what I’m calling it now.  It’s a grab bag of short form topics all of my choosing.  Today, we’re going to play my version of the name game in which I list three people or items and three descriptions and it’s my guest’s job to match everything up.  So, we’re bringing back Gyi for this one because he’s more fun than Amy Coney Barrett after a couple of mojitos.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Slightly.

Jared D. Correia:  Slightly.  She’s pretty fun, I’m sure.  All right, are you ready?  I got four categories for you.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Okay.

Jared D. Correia:  Simply like Jeopardy.  Category one, Sam I am.  All right.  I got three names.  Sam Jones, Samantha Mulder, Fantastic Sam.  One is a basketball player as the second most NBA championship rings of all time.  The other is, what I would describe as a Hair Cuttery, and the third is an alien abductee from the X-files television show.  Can you match them?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I’d appreciate you giving me this layup one for the first one.  Sadly, I’ve been a customer of Fantastic Sam.  So, I know that one well.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes, you’ve got it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  That’s Hair Cuttery.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I’m also a sci-fi nerd, although X-files was never my jam.  I was more of a Star Trek generation.

Jared D. Correia:  Really?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  But I can tell you that Samantha Mulder was an alien abductee in that television show.

Jared D. Correia:  Correct.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Which makes Sam Jones the player with the second most NBA championship rings of all time.

Jared D. Correia:  By process of elimination.  Do you know how many championship rings that is?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I’m going to go with five. I’m taking a guess.

Jared D. Correia:  Oh, 10.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Ten?  So that I know.

Jared D. Correia:  Second two.  Bill Russell was 11.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah right, Bill Russell.  I was thinking football.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes, yes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  TV 12 got six, right?

Jared D. Correia:  It’s all New England, man.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes.  My wife is a huge, huge fan of the X-files.  I’ve seen every episode.  I like it too.


Oh great, now we’re going to get sued.  All right.  Next question.  Next question set, gurus.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Uh-oh.

Jared D. Correia:  Ready?  I think you may have seen this before, but it’s new to the listeners.  Three names Bhagavan Das, Bhagavan Antle and Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.  So, one, is the owner of a home zoo and a part time hair manager, not a bad deal, I guess.  The other is an Indian guru whose followers took over an entire town in Oregon.  And the third is an American yogi whose name is Kermit.  What you got?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Okay.  So, you know, let’s be up the game a little bit here.  But still, I think I’m going to hit this one out of the park.  And I actually would like to take issue with — because they could arguably two of these are a part-time hair manager.  But I will —

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, I thought maybe arguably three.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  But we’ll talk about that in another episode.  So, the Indian guru whose followers took over an entire town in Oregon made more popular these days with the Netflix documentary Wild, Wild Country was Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

Jared D. Correia:  Correct.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Of the Rajneeshes.  And then we know from the other Netflix, we’re watching a lot of Netflix these days.

Jared D. Correia:  I know.  Aren’t we all?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Documentary Tiger King, Bhagavan Antle is the owner of a home zoo and part-time hair manager and that makes Bhagavan Das the American yogi whose name is Kermit.

Jared D. Correia:  Very nice.  Three for three, six for six.  Theme number three.  Theme number three is huge rods, are you ready?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh no, I’m not touching this one.

Jared D. Correia:  These are all people named Rod who are over six feet tall.  We’ve got Rod Strickland.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.

Jared D. Correia:  Roddy Piper, Rod Brind’Amour. One is a former professional wrestler and star of the cult classic They Live.  The next is a former NBA point guard, current manager of the NBA G league and the last is a former NHL player and current NHL head coach.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  All right.

Jared D. Correia:  What you got?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well, two of these I’m going to do due process elimination.  But one of these —

Jared D. Correia:  Yes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  — I’m very familiar with.

Jared D. Correia:  I think you got one, yeah.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And that’s Roddy Piper.  I mean, he is a cornerstone of modern-day professional wrestling.

Jared D. Correia:  “Rowdy” Roddy Piper.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  “Rowdy” Roddy Piper and uh they live also underrated then you should give this a go.  Check it out.

Jared D. Correia:  Is that on Netflix, sir, do you know?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I don’t know the answer to that.  But that was one of those that would be like on local TV, like in a Saturday afternoon.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Just syndicated and you just have to — why you see it and you just have to watch it, so compelling.

Jared D. Correia:  My kids watched TV with commercials for the first time like in a long time the other day and they’re —

Gyi Tsakalakis:  My daughter saw commercials —

Jared D. Correia:  — like, “It’s so long.”

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  She was like, “What is this?”  She’s like, “The channel changed,” I’m like, “No, it’s a commercial.”

Jared D. Correia:  No, that’s how it used to be.  All right, go ahead, I interrupted you.  We got two more.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Okay.  All right.  Well, so I’m going, I think I’m familiar with Rod Strickland being a former NBA point guard.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes, yes.  Very nice.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Now, I don’t know a lot about the NBA G League.

Jared D. Correia:  Developmental.  It’s like the minor leagues of the NBA.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Got it.

Jared D. Correia:  Yup.  They just built it out like a few years ago, it’s a new thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  All right, who are the good teams?  There’s a parallel to the too-good teams and pros?

Jared D. Correia:  Much like the minor leagues of baseball, it doesn’t really matter.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  It doesn’t matter.  It’s just no one cares.

Jared D. Correia:  Like no one cares.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  No one cares.

Jared D. Correia:  very good.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well there’s Rod.  That’s Rod Strickland and that makes Rod Brind’Amour, wait, is that French?

Jared D. Correia:  It’s got to be, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  A lot of French —

Jared D. Correia:  Who has like an apostrophe in the middle of their name like that?  French people.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well, yeah.  Irish.

Jared D. Correia:  French Canadians.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well, Irish as well.

Jared D. Correia:  Oh, that’s true, that’s true.  Usually an o preceding it. This is very unique just so people know because they can’t see it Rod Brind’Amour is like — it’s split in the middle with an apostrophe.  Very unique spelling.  So, he’s the NHL player.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  That’s the NHL player.

Jared D. Correia:  Dude, you’re nine for nine.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  Next time, you’re going to have to really — you have to get some hard ones.

Jared D. Correia:  Oh, but wait, I have a bonus question.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh, bonus.  Already ready.  Already ready.

Jared D. Correia:  Theme number four, Springfield, this is number four.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh, this is going to be a good one.

Jared D. Correia:  Springfield.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Maybe you’ll get me on this one.

Jared D. Correia:  I don’t know, man, you’ve been really hot.  Okay, Springfield mass, Springfield, Missouri and Springfield, Oregon.  One is the Springfield that the Simpsons live in.  One is the national headquarters of Bass Pro Shops, and the other is the Home of the National Basketball Hall of Fame.  I got a lot of basketball questions.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  I’m going to screw this one up for sure.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes, finally I’m going to —

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Because I was such a huge Simpsons fan, and it’s embarrassing.  This is really embarrassing.  I was — this was before — well, this is when you had VHS.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, I remember VHS.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And I was tasked with recording the Simpsons, because you couldn’t get it anywhere else.  And so, when it went on syndication, it was like mid-90s.


I was tasked with the recording and so, I had to set my clock every day and go and watch The Simpsons.  So, sadly, I’m blanking on the state, but I’m going to take a guess.

Jared D. Correia:  Okay, go for it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And I’m nervous about this.  The other two, I have no clue on.  Which is like also embarrassing.  So, I’m taking the stab out of him.  I’m going with Springfield Missouri.

Jared D. Correia:  No, wrong.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh, my goodness. This is so bad.

Jared D. Correia:  The Simpsons are actually from Springfield Oregon.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oregon.  That’s just —

Jared D. Correia:  That’s where McRaney is from, he’s from Oregon.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  So, I mean, if for the two people who hear this episode, I am going to get blown up on this.

Jared D. Correia:  My mom is going to be really upset.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh my goodness, this is —

Jared D. Correia:  All right.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Just edit it out.  Edit this out.  It’s so shameful.  All right.  So, it’s got to be —

Jared D. Correia:  Do you want to take a guess between the last two?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, I have to, I have to.

Jared D. Correia:  How are you going to look in the process of elimination.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  All right, here we go.  Springfield Missouri, I’m going with Bass Pro Shops.

Jared D. Correia:  Yes, correct.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Thank goodness.

Jared D. Correia:  good logic.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  And then, National Basketball Hall of Fame Massachusetts.  Why would you put the National Basketball Hall of Fame anywhere but Springfield Massachusetts.

Jared D. Correia:  Of course, naturally.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Where is Springfield Massachusetts?

Jared D. Correia:  The Western Massachusetts.  It’s kind of a weird spot.  It has like something to do with James Naismith who invented basketball.  I mean, he was either from there or that’s where he was teaching.  Well, that’s where he was teaching when they developed the game like back when they had peach baskets and stuff.  But why would you know that the national headquarters of Bass Pro Shops was in Springfield Missouri?

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I felt like there is a lot of fishing going on in Springfield Missouri.

Jared D. Correia:  Yeah, next to the Lake of the Ozarks.  I have to say though —

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, Lake of the Ozarks.  I have another Netflix show.

Jared D. Correia:  Right, Ozark is a great show.  I have been to the Bass Pro Shops in Springfield Missouri and they are — it is an amazing facility.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  The flagship?

Jared D. Correia:  It was massive.  Yeah, the flagship is — it’s actually awesome.  I’m not like outdoorsy, but the flagship is amazing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  There you go, go to Springfield Missouri.

Jared D. Correia:  Not bad, man.  I’m going to give you a silent round of applause.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  No, that’s embarrassing.

Jared D. Correia:  Eight of nine, eight of nine.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  I don’t want any applause for that, that is shameful.

Jared D. Correia:  No, nine of — eleven of twelve.  I was kind of impressed, but I understand that you hold yourself to a high standard.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Horrible.

Jared D. Correia:  Well, I think on that note, we’re going to end.  This episode on the Legal Toolkit podcast.  This Jared Correia signing off reminding you to spay or neuter your pets.  Wait, that’s Bob Barker.  I don’t care what you do to your pets.  But do beware of the packs of wild dogs that control most of America’s major cities.  That’s Will Ferrell.  All right, I have sign off ready for the second episode, I promise.  In the meantime, listen to these clips of my son berating me during the recording of this podcast.

Hey, do you think I’m a good teacher?

Son:  No, just good enough.

Jared D. Correia:  Okay, which document do you need?

Son:  This one.

Jared D. Correia:  Here you go.  Now, get out of my sight.

Son:  You actually suck at being a teacher.

Jared D. Correia:  Thanks.  I love you, son.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  My gosh.  Are you a good teacher?

Jared D. Correia:  No, just get into this assignment.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  So good.



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Episode Details
Published: October 27, 2020
Podcast: Legal Toolkit
Category: Legal Entertainment , Legal Marketing
Legal Toolkit
Legal Toolkit

Legal Toolkit highlights services, ideas, and programs that will improve lawyers' practices and workflow.

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