Pieter Gunst is CEO and co-founder of Legal.io. He studied law at Ghent and Stanford and gained experience as...
Jared D. Correia, Esq. is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which offers subscription-based law firm business...
Some lawyers dealing with pain points in the legal system day in, day out are inspired to develop technology solutions. But how do they make the leap into the legal tech space? In this Legal Toolkit, Jared Correia talks to Pieter Gunst about how he transitioned from lawyer to legal tech entrepreneur. They delve into strategies for aspiring tech founders, and Pieter shares resources he thinks are invaluable to legal tech start-ups, including Stanford’s Tech Index and the Crunchbase investor list. Additionally, Pieter offers advice on how legal tech companies can develop relationships with bar associations.
Pieter Gunst is CEO and co-founder of Legal.io.
The Legal Toolkit
From Lawyer to Tech Entrepreneur
Intro: Welcome to Legal Toolkit, bringing you the latest legal trends and business initiatives to help you manage your law firm, with your host Jared Correia. You are listening to Legal Talk Network.
Jared Correia: Welcome to another episode of the award-winning Legal Toolkit podcast, here on the Legal Talk Network. If you are looking for Graham Greene, I would then have to ask you which one?
If you are a returning listener, welcome back. If you are a first-time listener, hopefully you will become a longtime listener, and if you are Alan Jackson, you are a lot taller than most people think you are.
As always, I am your show host Jared Correia, and in addition to casting this pod, I am the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which offers subscription-based law practice management consulting services for law firms, bar associations and legal vendors. Check us out at redcavelegal.com.
I am also the COO of Gideon Software, Inc., which offers chatbots, a first to market Chatbot Builder and predictive analytics created specifically for law firms. Find out more about that at www.gideon.legal.
Lastly, you can listen to my other, other podcast, because I don’t have enough to do, that’s called The Lobby List, it’s a family travel show I host with my wife Jessica on iTunes. Subscribe, rate and comment.
But here, on The Legal Toolkit Podcast we provide you twice each month now with a new tool to add to your own legal toolkit so that your practices will become more and more like best practices.
So in this episode we are going to talk about Legal Tech Entrepreneurship. I have got a great guest for this, and I couldn’t think of anybody better to address this topic, and before we get to that, let’s take a moment to thank our sponsors.
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My guest today is Pieter Gunst, who is the Co-Founder and CEO of Legal.io, which builds technology and tools to make finding trusted legal help easier.
Before founding Legal.io, Pieter worked as a tech lawyer in Brussels for DLA Piper. He studied at Stanford Law and Pieter is all about leveraging technology to improve access to justice.
Hey Pieter, welcome to the big show.
Pieter Gunst: Thanks for having me Jared.
Jared Correia: Yeah, I feel like this is overdue. I am glad we were finally able to do this. So I am going to kick this off with a serious question. You spent a lot of time in Brussels, right, so brussels sprouts is what we call them here in the States. What are they called in Belgium, like here sprouts or something like that?
Pieter Gunst: Well, you know, we are very proud of our sprouts. Belgium has been cultivating them since the 13th Century, so we just call these sprouts, but we appreciate it if you call them Brussels sprouts.
Jared Correia: Oh nice. I like how you did that. You should be on like the marketing team for brussels sprouts.
Pieter Gunst: They have asked me, but you know, I am pretty busy these days.
Jared Correia: You are a busy man. I personally have to say that I love brussels Sprouts, it’s one of my favorite foods, which I know is maybe a weird thing, but I have loved brussels sprouts since I was a kid. They are delicious.
All right, enough of that, let’s talk about legal tech. I ask this of every legal tech founder who comes on the show and I kind of want to get your response as well. You practiced law like many folks who found legal tech companies, why did you stop doing that and start doing this?
Pieter Gunst: It happened maybe somewhat accidentally. So as you mentioned, I worked in a big law firm, DLA Piper. I was in the Intellectual Property and Technology Department. I was there having a really good time, I was a young attorney, I got to do very big cases, for big clients, but at the same time, coming at it from a business and technology interest and background, it quickly became clear to me that we were doing a lot of repetitive work that probably could be done in a more automated fashion, but it was hard to drive that within the law firm.
On the other hand, as a young lawyer in Belgium, you get to do a lot of pro bono work and so I saw that other end of the spectrum and really frankly a lot of the misery that people that get in touch with the legal system, but that don’t have a big budget go through, and that touched me deeply.
And then I ended up in 2010 getting a scholarship for Stanford Law School. Entrepreneurship wasn’t a fixed idea in my mind then yet, but once you land in Silicon Valley and you see the hundreds of people trying and doing, these patterns become pretty clear. And after being hired for a brief stint at SurveyMonkey; I was the second attorney at that company, I decided to kind of make the jump based on all the examples I had seen and start something myself based on these experience as a lawyer and my belief that some of the things we were doing could be done better or more efficiently.
Jared Correia: Some or all or most?
Pieter Gunst: Well, I wouldn’t say it’s all bad; I would just say that there is a lot of room for improvement and that lawyers aren’t necessarily trained up to see those opportunities.
Jared Correia: Yeah, I get that. It sounds like being a big firm lawyer in Belgium is way nicer than being a big firm lawyer in the States.
Pieter Gunst: I think it depends on who you end up working for. It’s such a person-based business, right, and I had two partners I worked for. One of them had done his PhD at Stanford, which is very much — one of the big reasons I ended up there, and I was just lucky having some forward-thinking partners to train me up, so I am very grateful for that. Hit or miss I guess.
Jared Correia: Right. So this is not like easy starting a legal tech company or starting any technology company frankly. So it’s not like a garden path for you, from law practice to legal tech founder. So what are some of the biggest challenges you have encountered in making the switch and how did you overcome those?
Pieter Gunst: I think one of the biggest things probably initially is unlearning the lawyer mindsets, and what I mean by that is that you are trained to see risk everywhere, and an entrepreneurship oftentimes is steering into the risk, being cognizant of it, and taking it, and so it’s a different approach and a different mindset.
And I think as we started adding people to the team and basically lowering the percentage of lawyers on our team, that’s been very helpful to get these different perspectives as people, and I think that was a big thing, because I think as lawyers if you are cognizant of all the risks around you, especially in a heavily regulated industry such as legal, your risk is of course that you don’t do anything at all.
I think the other thing that’s kind of interesting is that if you run a business, you have got to triage what are the things that are important today, what should I ignore, even though it’s going to be important in the future, and that’s something that I felt looking back at my period as a lawyer, I didn’t always necessarily understand what are the priorities for the client’s business were. And now running a business myself I guess I have a much better grasp of well, okay, these are things that I can frankly ignore, these are things that I need to address today. And that doesn’t come naturally and I feel that legal education to a certain extent miseducates you for when you are actually done making the jump in starting a business.
And I think more generally, probably the biggest challenge in running any business is, it’s just the people management, it’s definitely the least predictable part, just being able to build a team, having them work well together, having them all pull on the same string and work towards the same mission, I think that is one thing that I am incredibly proud of that we have been able to do that with a team of 10 people now.
We hope to be able to scale that up as we have 20, 30, 40, 50, but I would say that’s a big challenge for any entrepreneur and it certainly helps if you have done it before, but I came at it as a first time founder.
Jared Correia: I mean that’s great insight and it sounds like you had a lot of lawyers on the team to start out with and then you reduced that number or you added non-lawyers to get some perspective?
Pieter Gunst: Yeah, we started the company with three lawyers.
Jared Correia: Always a bad idea, right?
Pieter Gunst: Yeah, it became two lawyers not too long after that, and so we learned from — it wasn’t a mistake, but we just needed to reconfigure, because we were starting to talk to investors, and these investors were saying yes, we are interested in funding this project, but you are going to have to make XYZ changes, and then it just became a matter of, well, if we agree that these changes are necessary and we would like to continue to exist, then we need to make these changes to the team.
And that calls for some difficult discussions. The good thing was that we had all the paperwork in place as lawyers to deal with a situation like that and it was relatively frictionless, and the one founder who left the company is to date still my best friend.
Jared Correia: Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, lawyers have paperwork on-lock, if nothing else.
Pieter Gunst: Yeah, exactly.
Jared Correia: All right, so this is a good start up. My dogs are barking, so let’s take a break. Here are some things you should buy.
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Jared Correia: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I didn’t get any better off of this either, so here I am. I am here talking with Pieter Gunst of Legal.io, and we are here podcasting about the nature of legal tech startups and corporate management.
All right Pieter, so you talked a little bit about how you transitioned from lawyer to tech founder, talked a little bit about some challenges you had in doing so, including managing people, which is definitely a common challenge for founders.
What advice can you now offer to other legal tech entrepreneurs kind of looking back on what you have achieved at this point?
Pieter Gunst: I can maybe talk about all the mistakes I have made and turned them into advice, because we have certainly made a bunch along the way. But I think one thing that is important, and all of these things are going to sound trivial, but they are not if you are in the thick of it or you are building a business because it’s just easy to forget.
So, one thing is to just validate ideas cheaply and quickly. It’s very easy to come at building a business with a certain preset, list of assumptions and to get them wrong, and I think that we certainly in the first iteration of our software, we did that too much and we could have built less and talked more to people, showed them more drawings on napkins and just have saved a lot of money and time.
And it’s very easy to fall into a trap certainly if you have been a practitioner and you have a certain preconceived notion of what they should look like, but that doesn’t mean that other stakeholders, such as the clients, will engage the same way. So validating ideas quickly and cheaply is definitely the one thing that if you can engrain it in your mind and make it a core habit, the one thing that’s going to save you so much anguish and just straight up dollars.
And talking about dollars, and this is maybe a second piece of advice, it’s also understanding your markets and how you will make money. And when we started out the business, and this came a bit from the experience of doing pro bono work in Belgium, we went to the Dean of Stanford Law School and we asked him if he was interested in sitting on the board of our nonprofit that was going to help poor people find attorneys, that was where we started out.
And the Dean looked at us and he started laughing very loudly and he told us no, and he told us to maybe come back if we found a scalable business model and he also recommended not creating a nonprofit, because it would be too hard for a bunch of immigrants to raise money from traditional foundation.
And so I think that’s interesting too and we were lucky to get guidance from some people with much more experience, that kind of gave us direction and helped us, again, like put the business on a path towards sustainability.
Another tip that I would give is, and I touched on this earlier, is to find people who think differently than you. One of the, I think, amazing properties of our team is that we have been able to put together people who are just like on a radically different planes of thoughts, and sometimes that’s difficult and it causes friction, but the end result is always that you come out with better solutions that are just more fully fleshed out. And you kind of have to learn how to communicate and it’s true for working with engineers, customer success, business and sales, all these people come with their own interests and their own perspectives and combining them is a very powerful thing, if you can do it well.
And then maybe my last advice is to not start another legal marketplace, because there is just like a thousands of them already and it’s an incredibly hard proposition, but if you were to consider doing so, send me a message on LinkedIn or give me a call and I am super happy to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities there.
Jared Correia: Absolutely, you are a very engaging guy. I can confirm that. I think you make a good point about, I think people, especially the lawyers, don’t want to rush anything and they have like this perfectionist mindset. And so it’s true, like getting a product to market is hard because you have a certain vision for it, and you are not going to be able to achieve that overnight, like software development is a long-term thing. And if you have like the perfect product, you would have no additional versions of it, so there is no real reason to keep people interested in using it. So that is a great point that you make, I think.
And so in following this up, like you talked a little bit about the people you want to engage, you talked a little bit about strategies that you want to utilize, so how about like resources for legal tech founders, like what valuable resources are out there, like outside of people and outside of strategies that have been tried, like where would I look for generic resources that might help me start a company if I am coming to this and I have like never done it before, as you kind of did?
Pieter Gunst: One thing that I keep seeing a lot is founders that — and I was kind of joking when I said don’t start another legal marketplace, but I also like very regularly see people getting into debt and then they say, we are the first who does XYZ and there is just kind of a lack of understanding of the very long history of legal tech effort that has happened over the past two decades, a lot of the stuff that’s built on the history.
So I think one incredible resource is a tool called the Stanford Tech Index and it’s basically a directory, categorized directory hosted by Stanford Law School, which gives an overview of every legal tech company known internationally. And this is a really good jumping off point to see how others have tackled a certain problem, and probably for every problem that you can think of, there is going to be a company in there that’s tried it.
And one thing that’s very interesting is that we, because I am involved in this project and hosting this data and keeping it up to date, is kind of the survival rate of these companies, it’s depressing, right? If you go back three years, most of these companies have ceased to exist. So I think the number one thing in terms of first orienting your idea is to use a tool like this and understand what else is out there and understand how you might be able to differentiate your offering.
Now, another big one that I have had a lot of utility from is, and this is more in the context of them making it happen, is basically just a Crunchbase investor list, where you will find over 250 investors and investment funds of varying sizes that have invested in legal tech.
And I am not telling you to send those people an email with your slide deck, that’s not how it works, but one thing that you should be cognizant of is like six to nine months before you are intending to start fundraising to identify those individuals that might be advisors to your company to build a relationship with them and then get their guidance once you actually start the fundraising process. This is really something that needs a lot of prep and a lot of personal relationship building to be successful and it’s also so easy to underestimate the time that it will take.
So in my experience typically six months turnaround time is a good outcome. You might be able to do it faster, it might take longer, but that’s the kind of buffer that you need to build in, and that then obviously plays into your timelines. But Crunchbase as a fundraising resource is really good. Better than Crunchbase is personal relationships and investing the time to build those out.
And then other than that, I benefit a lot from the various communities out there and people coming on your show, spreading their thoughts. Twitter is huge for me. I made a lot of friends there and it’s just an easy way to exchange ideas and to get feedback.
And so I feel that more and more of that network intelligence for founders is also moving online, which lowers the barrier and hopefully will lead to more innovation in our space.
Jared Correia: That’s an excellent answer, lots of great resources in there, and we will get to Twitter, don’t you worry about that.
Pieter Gunst: That’s my favorite.
Jared Correia: The last question for this segment of the show at least, and I think this is a challenge for folks who are starting a company. I think the notion is that like you define success by how much money you make, but that’s not the entire idea of being successful as a business owner.
So how do you personally define success for yourself in your business and then how does your company define success and then how does that change potentially over time?
Pieter Gunst: Oh, that’s a good question, and I guess indeed a difficult one. I think if you ask me what success is for the company, it means that all its stakeholders, meaning its investors, its employees, and also our customers are well off because of our existence, right? And this is basically purely a business calculation where these people are investing their time and/or money and that leads to yield. That’s the business.
But I don’t wake up feeling good about — well, I feel good about it, the amount of dollars that came into the bank account; I look at the number of people we have helped. And I think last week we crossed the threshold of 1.25 million people who have used our service. We have created over 150,000 referrals as a result of that. We track the outcome for almost all of them. And it’s those stories, you know, it’s those people who were evicted from their house or that family that was going to be charged $20,000 for a simple incorporation by some big firm and we were able to avoid that.
It’s really a very, I feel, story-driven feeling of success and seeing these little successes and knowing that you made a difference in the life of an individual or a company.
And the beautiful thing about that is that I can never not be successful anymore having built this, we have done that. This morning we have helped 300 people connect to an attorney, that’s success, that’s making a difference.
Now, obviously you can feel good about these things, if you don’t make the business sustainable and successful, you can’t keep doing this, so that too needs to be the outcome. But I do think it’s fair to look at success on those two layers; success for the organization, which is mainly focused around the sustainability, and then I think individually, and most of my team members have done sort of the same thing, it’s about the impact we have and the people we help.
I think one of the wider and maybe longer term goals, one of the things we have been doing, and we are now doing this with four State Bar Associations and a whole range of local programs, is collecting a lot of data on legal service delivery. I think one really nice outcome would be that when I pass the baton that we have really made a difference in making this traditionally very opaque industry more transparent, and that clients actually know what something should cost, that they actually knew whether this lawyer was any good and should they work with them.
And I think at the mental level, that’s the thing that I am incredibly excited about, coming at this as a lawyer and having seen that, it’s not transparent at all, it’s not efficient today, and it’s about time that that changes, and the problem is certainly big and important enough to make a serious effort to achieve that.
Jared Correia: Yeah, that’s cool, great answer, and we will talk about Bar Associations after this break. So while I go look for the monkey I lost last week, listen to these words from our sponsors.
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Jared Correia: All right, thanks for coming back again. I hope you are enjoying this show and the significant amount of whimsy it carries along with it. Let’s get back to our conversation with Pieter Gunst of Legal.io, who is talking to me about how to found and run a legal tech company. Let’s find out more.
So Pieter, you work with Bar Associations as you just mentioned prior to the break, so do I, and I feel like everyone wants to work with Bar Associations without exactly knowing how to do that. So what advice do you have about how legal tech companies can effectively work with Bar Associations, because I think this is kind of relatively a new thing in many ways?
Pieter Gunst: I think as in selling anything it’s really building a very deep understanding of what needs there are and what kind of solutions might cover those needs. I think Bar Associations are in a very, very interesting position right now, and this is a bit similar to law firms, because the role that they traditionally played supporting their members is somewhat under attack by a whole range of alternatives, many of them driven by technology.
For example, a Bar will provide community to its members, but now there are so many other ways to do that.
And for us it is really conversations with the leadership of these Bar Associations, understanding where they thought the future was going, things that they were concerned about, and then seeing what we were building was effectively addressing that.
And so a lot of it was need finding, and one of the things that happened this year, starting into law firms or Bar Association is that that need finding and the sales cycle that results from it tends to take a very long time. And you have to take that into account when you are thinking about your timelines, your financing strategy, etc. It took us about a year before we got our first Bar Association on boards, and this was once we had completed the entire product.
Now, once you have a couple of these customers and they can act as references, the process speeds up. But every time still it’s basically coming in, talking about the particular situation of the Bar in that jurisdiction, because they were, for example, different depending on whether they are mandatory or voluntary, and then matching a solution to that need, or if you are not the solution, recommending another solution, so that you nurture that relationship and actually position yourself as a trusted point of contact if they ever have questions about technology.
Jared Correia: No, that’s a good point. And I think like Bars — I think a year is maybe like short, as far as deals taking longer than a year to close. But you are right on a lot of points there.
All right, so now, here is your chance to wax even more poetic than you already have, what technologies or innovations in the legal space are you personally, my friend, most excited about?
Pieter Gunst: Well, very simple, it’s the invention of blockchain. It’s the technology that powers bitcoin, which in itself is a very, very interesting evolution, so it allows for the transfer of a digital asset, of a value, as an intermediary like a bank, but the underlying technology, blockchain, at the same time creates a sort of database system where information cannot be tampered with.
But it has some other interesting properties. For example, Walmart is using this technology to coordinate all the different actors in its supply chain to share data with each other. In particular, they are doing this for the supply chain of lettuce, because lettuce spoils very quickly.
Jared Correia: Interesting.
Pieter Gunst: And I think the opportunity here, and the thing that I am very excited about is, I mentioned a couple of times throughout this conversation that one of the things that’s lacking in legal is transparency. It’s the lack of data. There are no good standards to express a legal matter. There have been various efforts, but they never cover the entire supply chain of legal. They look at a small subset, for example, what in-house counsel would care about.
And one of the things that I am very excited about is all the efforts that are now happening in this space and they touch on blockchain, but don’t exclusively use them; a lot of them are on data standards, is to basically create some of these baseline data standards that will allow us and that will allow systems to express the data in the legal supply chain in a more standardized format.
Think about the notion of an SKU, a stock keeping unit, everything that Amazon sells has this unique identifier, we need this for legal so we can start measuring things more effectively. And I think we are going to close this decade having laid a lot of the groundwork for then achieving that in the next decades. And it’s going to have a tremendous impact, because it’s basically going to start gaining much more price transparency in the market, which is going to make it much harder for the incumbent players to charge whatever.
You are already seeing all these alternative legal service providers enter the markets, doing certain things cheaper; the scope of what they can do cheaper will expand more and more. And I just think we are going to see a much more efficient supply chain driven by some of these technologies, such as blockchain as I mentioned.
The other thing that blockchain does, and I am really summarizing it for the purpose of this discussion here, is it basically allows people to have more control over their digital identity. Right now we have a database, we manage user information, we manage information around certain legal issues these users have. Imagine a world where a user can have direct control over that information, choose whom to give access; similar with medical records, right?
And so recent advances in encryption are putting us on a track where a company like mine somewhere in the future will no longer have direct control over this information, but rather we will get permission from the user to use it for a while and the user will be able to retract it.
Think about a Facebook Connect that the user directly controls, and I think that’s a really big deal and all the evolutions that we are seeing now in privacy law everywhere and also the nature of the information that we are handling is I think putting us on this track, where we are again going to see a different model for control over data, that’s more directly in the hands of the user. And I am very excited about that proposition, because it’s a risk reduction to our businesses and it also opens up the landscape around this data sharing and these standards in a way that can drive much more efficient markets.
Jared Correia: All right everybody, get ready for the 2020s. Hold on to your hats.
Pieter Gunst: I think it’s going to be a wild decade for legal tech.
Jared Correia: Nice. All right, we got through the big legal discussion. Now I want to introduce my new segment here, which is one of my favorite things, this is truly delightful, where I read a tweet one of my guests wrote and I ask them about it.
Are you ready for this Pieter?
Pieter Gunst: Sure.
Jared Correia: Good. That was mostly a rhetorical question. All right, here is your tweet, from Valentine’s Day 2019. You wrote in dialogue form. Me, press confirm button in Uber ride-sharing app. App, 0.3 seconds later, your car is here. Me, wow, hello driver, how are you here already? Uber driver, I am your neighbor, Twilight zone music. Me, what a time to be alive.
All right, several things to unpack here. I am going to let you do most of it, but do you feel like it’s good or bad that you don’t know your neighbor well enough to know that he is your Uber driver, and also, what kind of Valentine’s Day candy did you get on that ride, maybe to the airport?
Pieter Gunst: Well, I definitely felt bad that I didn’t know my neighbor at all, let alone that he was an Uber driver, and I thought that was kind of dispelling Dystopian tale of living in a big city, that’s highly technologized. There is also just a lot of thoughts about how these apps exert control over people and tell you where to go, how long to do it.
So yeah, I did feel pretty strange that I didn’t know the man, but he did make it up with candy, so I kind of forgot about it towards the end of it.
Jared Correia: There you go. It’s kind of more like a Black Mirror episode than a Twilight Zone episode actually, now that I think of it.
Pieter Gunst: And the reason I wrote it is because we are getting used to pressing a button and getting what we want 0.3 seconds later, and that’s gone thus far that if people in San Francisco use any of these ride-sharing apps and that car doesn’t arrive two minutes later, they get angry. And one of the reasons why I wrote this is because there is no reason, no reason at all to expect that it’s not going to be different for consumers of legal services, right?
This kind of behavior and thinking is just going to permeate every industry. I want it now, I want it at the best price, and I want it provided by a trusted entity, which Uber solved through its rating system. Legal is of course much harder, but the same rules apply. And whoever solves that problem and provides that convenience and transparency is going to eat a big piece of the market.
Jared Correia: I like how you brought that back around, I really wasn’t expecting that. Well played, truly.
This is also why kids are so annoying.
Pieter Gunst: Everything I write really.
Jared Correia: Yeah, you are a beast.
Pieter Gunst: Everything I write really comes back to legal tech.
Jared Correia: I knew that. And this is why kids are so annoying too, because I can tell my kids every day I am not Netflix, like just because you want toast doesn’t mean toast is going to appear on your lap like 0.3 seconds later. There is a process here. Also why I carry around a flip phone.
Pieter Gunst: They are just going to start a vote to replace you with Netflix. They might just think it’s the better dad.
Jared Correia: Hey, and that might not be untrue. And we should probably end on that note.
We have reached the end of yet another episode of The Legal Toolkit Podcast. This was the podcast about legal tech startups and management and we have been talking with Pieter Gunst of Legal.io.
Now, I will be back on future shows with further insights into my soul, the soul of America and the legal market, as I now question the viability of my fatherhood. If you are feeling nostalgic for my dulcet tones however, you can check out our entire show archive anytime you want at legaltalknetwork.com.
Thanks again to Pieter Gunst of Legal.io for making an appearance as my guest today. It’s been long overdue.
All right Pieter, can you tell everyone how they can find out more about you and more about Legal.io.
Pieter Gunst: Sure. Just go to our website, www.legal.io. You can sign up there as an attorney or you can reach out to get a demo of our platform, which is geared towards connecting people to trusted legal help.
Jared Correia: Awesome. Thanks again. That’s Pieter Gunst of Legal.io. He is the CEO and Co-Founder.
Finally, thanks to all of you out there for listening. This has been The Legal Toolkit Podcast, where there are always four or more Valentine’s Day cards for Glenn Coco.
Outro: Thanks for listening to Legal Toolkit, produced by the broadcast professionals at Legal Talk Network. Join host Jared Correia for his next podcast covering the current business trends for law firms.
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