Legal Podcasts: Feedback from an Avid Listener

Episode Notes

Transcript

The Legal Toolkit

Legal Podcasts: Feedback from an Avid Listener

04/09/2019

[Music]

Intro: Welcome to Legal Toolkit, bringing you the latest legal trends and business initiatives to help you manage your law firm, with your host Jared Correia. You are listening to Legal Talk Network.

[Music]

Jared Correia: Hello and welcome to another episode of the award winning Legal Toolkit Podcast here on Legal Talk Network.

If you were looking for Amelia Earhart, check with the coconut crabs. Oh, I watch way too many nature documentaries with my son.

So hey, if you are a returning listener, welcome back. If you are a first-time listener, hopefully you will become a longtime listener, and if you are Sean McVay, it’s probably time to diversify the offense.

As always, I am your show host Jared Correia, and in addition to casting this pod, I am the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which offers subscription-based law practice management consulting services for law firms, bar associations and legal vendors. Check us out at redcavelegal.com.

I am also the COO of Gideon Software, Inc., which offers chatbots, a first to market Chatbot Builder and predictive analytics created specifically for law firms. Find out more at www.gideon.legal.

You can listen to my other, other podcast, The Lobby List, a family travel show I host with my wife Jessica on iTunes. Subscribe, rate, and comment.

But here on The Legal Toolkit we provide you twice each month now with a new tool to add to your own Legal Toolkit so that your practices will become more and more like best practices.

In this episode we are going to talk about how to build a better podcast. This is all very meta.

But before I introduce today’s guest, let’s take a moment to thank our sponsors.

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My guest today is Tim Baran. Tim is the LawHelpNY Program Manager at Pro Bono Net. Prior to working with Pro Bono Net, Tim was the Chief Marketing Officer at Good2BSocial, and prior to that was a Content Director for Rocket Matter.

Before even that he owned and operated BaranCLE, a continuing legal education consultancy. And I am proud to say that I have known Tim long enough that I wrote most of that from memory, with just a tiny bit of help from LinkedIn.

So Tim, welcome back to the big show.

Tim Baran: Thank you Jared. It’s good to be chatting with you again.

Jared Correia: It’s been too long. I don’t think we have done a podcast for like a few years at this point, we can make it a more regular thing.

Tim Baran: It’s been a long time I agree, way too long.

Jared Correia: I know.

Tim Baran: And in that intro, it’s been quite a journey, but the majority of time I have spent at any one gig was as a law librarian and it’s really interesting that after you have gone through many sort of hats along the journey that that’s almost left behind.

Jared Correia: Should I have mentioned law librarian? Now I feel bad.

Tim Baran: Oh, don’t feel bad.

Jared Correia: All right, I will try to get over it.

All right everybody, so we have got Tim Baran here, former law librarian, and we are going to talk about podcasting. So Tim, you are probably like the biggest podcast fan I know. I think you probably listen to more podcasts than anyone I have ever talked to. So I think we always talk about this whenever we talk on the phone, so tell me on a podcast, in this very meta setting, what are the three best podcasts you are listening to right now, aside from this one of course, and this does not even have to be legal related, spread your wings, three best podcasts, go?

Tim Baran: The three best podcasts — how about my three favorite podcasts so far? Does that work?

Jared Correia: That works.

Tim Baran: Jared, I remember the last time we chatted, it has to be a couple of years ago, and at the time I was subscribing to about 30 podcasts.

Jared Correia: Seems like a lot.

Tim Baran: I have subscribed to hundreds over the years, but over the last year or so, since last year anyway, I am starting to sort of Marie Kondo my inputs.

Jared Correia: I still haven’t seen that on Netflix.

(00:04:58)

Tim Baran: Oh, you have to watch that. Oh, you have to check it; the book is even better.

Jared Correia: Really? So that means you are cleaning out your podcasting.

Tim Baran: So I am cleaning out my podcasting, and it’s not because I don’t like podcasts, but because I am trying to control, like slow down the way that I consume information. And part of that is just listening to too many podcasts and really controlling my inputs as they say.

That said, I do have to add a caveat before I even talk about favorite podcasts, because different people look for different things from podcasts. The one thing I don’t look to from podcasts is entertainment, I go to Amazon Prime, I go to Netflix, unless it’s your podcast, Jared.

Jared Correia: Which is very entertaining, I know.

Tim Baran: Yes, which is very entertaining, so with that caveat, my top three right now is the Ezra Klein Show, I don’t know if you listen to that, but I don’t know if I am allowed to say that out here, but I may or may not have a nerd crush on him.

Jared Correia: Oh, you can say that.

Tim Baran: Yeah, okay.

Jared Correia: Can you describe the show a little bit, because I guarantee you that the podcast you listen to I probably have not listened to.

Tim Baran: Well, he has been on for a number of years and he is a news and political junkie and he started — young guy, and he started Vox Media, and it’s just a different way of thinking about the news. And what he does is have like guests that are super, super interesting. He had, do you know Cal Newport, the author who wrote — his recent book is about — along the lines of controlling 06:40 and —

Jared Correia: Oh my God, I am going to show everybody how lacking in culture I am. I thought you were making that name up.

Tim Baran: No, no. So what he does, and what I like about podcast is that you take one topic, you have a guest, and you go really deep on it and you really hammer your guest on that topic.

So the guests have — they have to be, Ezra Klein is, I don’t know how he does this, he has a photographic memory, but he goes really deep on any subject; like he will read five books in preparation for a podcast and pull quotes out of it. So I really, really enjoy his podcast.

Another one that I like is Preet Bharara’s podcast, but the one thing I don’t like about that is he goes on for about 15 minutes before getting to the guests.

Jared Correia: Yeah, I have listened to podcasts like that. You are not a fan of that.

Tim Baran: No, I am not a fan of it. Tim Ferriss, he is one of the best, the first five minutes of his podcast are all ads and then the next 15 minutes is always like chatting and then boom, the guests. And I am like, you know what, I am turning in because I like not just what you say, but how you get guests to interact with you, to get a new take on some of these subject matters, but still, I am still giving Preet the benefit of doubt, but I just fast forward. I know to go to the 15 minute mark and then start.

Jared Correia: Oh, well, there you go, that’s a good strategy.

Tim Baran: Yeah, yeah. And the third I am going to say a law podcast and it’s —

Jared Correia: You don’t have to, you don’t have to.

Tim Baran: I know I don’t have to, because I am only listening to eight right now, I am even cutting it back further, so if you get into the top three, that’s a lot of pruning for me because I —

Jared Correia: I know, that’s pretty good, you make the top eight, then you make the top three.

Tim Baran: But then I have a really quick hook up podcast. So Bob — I mean couple of reasons why I like Bob’s podcast.

Jared Correia: So Bob’s podcast is LawNext, right, is that what it’s called?

Tim Baran: It’s called LawNext and I know he has been on Legal Talk Network before, but of course, I mean I respect him, I look at him, I know him, and he has done it for such a long time and he does it so beautifully, the way he is able to get guests and the way he writes about technology, and he does it in a really insightful way, but yet a very respectful way.

Jared Correia: Yeah, yeah. You know we are practically neighbors, right?

Tim Baran: No, I didn’t know that.

Jared Correia: He could be in the bushes outside my house right now, I don’t know. We live very close to each other.

Tim Baran: I know he lives in a very picturesque part of Massachusetts. I didn’t know that you were similarly privileged.

Jared Correia: There are very few non-picturesque parts of Massachusetts, but I digress.

Tim Baran: That’s a good point, good point. But even with Bob’s podcast, even with the top three podcasts, I don’t listen to every episode, if it’s a topic that I really like, if it’s a guest that I really like, I will listen.

Jared Correia: Got you. So can we recap those, can you give us the top three quickly again?

Tim Baran: Yes, because I talked so much about them instead of saying the top three. One is the Ezra Klein Show, the second one is Preet Bharara’s show, I don’t even know the name of it, I just call it the Preet Bharara’s show, and the next one is — the number three is Bob Ambrogi’s LawNext.

(00:09:56)

Jared Correia: So usually like this question is like my icebreaker question, like how many podcasts do you listen to, which ones do you like the best, but we have known each other for so long, we broke the ice like 15 years ago. So let’s just talk about podcasting, so I want to know from you, like not specific podcasts necessarily, but what to your mind makes a great podcast, like what does that formula look like?

Tim Baran: So are you talking about —

Jared Correia: Oh, you are turning around on me to ask me a question.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: So this is how I know you were a law librarian. Okay, yeah.

Tim Baran: Are you talking about like what I look for when choosing a favorite podcast or what should someone go about considering when looking to create a podcast of their own?

Jared Correia: We will get to that second question, so let’s start with what do you look for in a great podcast?

Tim Baran: I look for something that aligns with my interest. So it could be a topic or an author; when I am saying author that would be a guest on the show, right?

Jared Correia: Oh, got you, yeah.

Tim Baran: Yeah. And if one of those two are on the show, that makes me interested in the show.

Now, in terms of a podcast that I want —

Jared Correia: So it’s personality-driven for you a lot of it.

Tim Baran: It really is. And like I said before, I don’t look for entertainment in a podcast, I look for what’s my interest and how can I gain some insight, some deeper insight and information about the topic or person.

Jared Correia: Got you.

Tim Baran: That’s it.

Jared Correia: Go ahead. Other than personalities, what else do you look for in a great podcast?

Tim Baran: So it’s not really great personality I would say, it’s just a person or topic that — so it’s two things I look for, right, the topic and something that I am interested in or passionate about and that I want to learn more about. And it could be something work related. It could be something like, for instance, project management, in the legal domain.

Jared Correia: Yeah, the exciting world of project management.

Tim Baran: And you know what, I would listen to a podcast like that week after week if someone would offer me tips on how to go about doing that in a real way. Or maybe someone — I am really interested in the way tech works in the access to justice space, to sort of close that gap of access to people that actually need help and can’t afford it, but not just tech in general, right? If someone would create like something niche on that, like okay, how does nonprofits and not for profits and hybrid technology work together to provide the most benefit to helping to close that access to justice gap. That’s something I can listen to all day.

Jared Correia: Got you.

Tim Baran: That would only have five listeners.

Jared Correia: The two of us, three other people. So it’s got to be interesting, it’s got to be edifying, that makes sense.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: Alternatively, like what is a bad podcast for you or bad traits of a podcast? So we already talked about, you want to save the monologues for late night television, right, no podcasting monologues, just get to the guests, anything else turn you off about podcast?

Tim Baran: Well, when the podcast becomes too chummy or maybe insular. So you are speaking to your audience, which may be familiar with some of the stuff that you are saying, but don’t use the kind of jargon and acronyms, bring your audience into the conversation with you.

There are so many podcast hosts that I feel really like to hear themselves talk or prove that they are smart and then they use the language around that and it really alienates the listener.

The other thing is, be mindful of time. There are podcasts that go on for three hours. I stopped listening to Tim Ferriss’ podcast because it goes on for like two hours and three hours. And some people say they listen to that and I am like, what else do you do during the week?

And it needs to be in digestible time frames. I would listen to — I like podcasts that maybe even go on for over an hour if it’s something I am interested in, but I think if they go from like 40 minutes to an hour, I view as good.

And I can’t stress this enough, and I know this is difficult for folks just starting out if they actually want to produce a podcast, but quality of sound. There is nothing that affects the substantive matter of a podcast, regardless of how interested you are in it, than just horrible sound.

(00:15:02)

Jared Correia: Yeah, it’s distracting, right, bad sound is distracting.

Tim Baran: Very distracting, yeah, yeah.

Jared Correia: Totally agree with that. Those are some good suggestions. So if you are doing those things on your podcast podcasters, stop.

So I have been in this podcasting game for a while now. I think I have been doing this for like 12 years or something crazy like that. So I was podcasting before podcasting was cool, but like it does take society at large a little while to catch up with me.

But podcasts are like super popular right now, and I think like culturally this thing started like when Serial came out, like everybody listened to that podcast and now everybody has got a podcast, right? So like why do you think podcasts are so loved by people right now and what do you think their staying power looks like, like how long do you think this trend takes out for?

Tim Baran: Well, podcasts are loved by — it depends on who you are talking about.

Jared Correia: Well, maybe not grandmas, but everybody else.

Tim Baran: But I would say that it’s loved by podcast hosts because —

Jared Correia: Which is everybody, right, now?

Tim Baran: Because advertising is flocking into the private podcast realm. But it’s loved by podcast guests because of the convenience. If you have to turn on — like everyone is cutting the cord to cable; I mean I haven’t had cable in 10 years.

Jared Correia: God bless you. I am the last DIRECTV subscriber in America.

Tim Baran: But I can still watch Amazon or Hulu or Netflix when I have the time, it’s convenient for me. With podcasts, you take that to another degree, because you don’t have to look at it, you can just listen to it when you are in line at the grocery store, or when you are driving on a three hour trip, or during your commute in the morning. So I feel it’s the convenience of it and it allows someone to get into your space that you really — for instance, like Bryan Stevenson is one of my heroes and I am listening —

Jared Correia: Yes, you love Bryan Stevenson, we have talked about it.

Tim Baran: I really love Bryan Stevenson. I mean like I listen to everything that he has to say, I have met him a couple of times, and the next month I am going up to Alabama to go and check out the museum that he built, and I would listen to any podcast that has him on as a guest; now I wouldn’t subscribe to the episode.

Jared Correia: He was in that episode, yeah.

Tim Baran: And when I listen to it, not just with Bryan Stevenson, but with someone who I admire, someone who I respect, someone who I want to learn from, a guest for instance, and they are on this podcast and they are having this conversation back and forth and I get to access their process and their journey, I think it just brings the people that you admire so close to you that you would want to have an opportunity to learn about.

Jared Correia: This has been a good discussion so far; however —

Tim Baran: Is that too deep?

Jared Correia: We are getting a little too deep, so I am going to cut it off and take a short break. Let’s get back to the shallow end.

So as I said, we are going to take a short break. Here are some things you should buy.

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Jared Correia: Thanks for staying with us, make yourself comfortable. I am here talking with Tim Baran of Pro Bono Net. We are here podcasting about podcasting, because apparently that’s a thing now.

So Tim, I am going to try and say this without offending anyone, but like lawyers are somewhat humorless, are they not? So like if you were a lawyer trying to launch a podcast, how could you do that in a way that was interesting?

And I am not asking for like what would be the viral lawyer podcast, because I think we know that like true crime is a genre that’s like exploring in podcast and media generally, but like what would make like the average lawyer’s podcast interesting?

(00:20:01)

Tim Baran: I am glad you asked it that way, so not what would make a lawyer podcast entertaining.

Jared Correia: Well, I learned my lesson from the first half of the show. I know what you are looking for in podcasts. I was listening the whole time.

Tim Baran: That is interesting, because I think there are some folks that go on and this is their opportunity to perform that they have always harbored secret ambitions for and it doesn’t work, right?

So what would make it interesting is, and not just for a lawyer, but for anyone that wants to have a podcast, make it interesting for the audience that you want to access or that you want to speak to. So don’t make it interesting for everyone, and that’s huge. Once you identify who you want your audience to be, then that will allow you to really fine-tune and hone what you are going to be talking about, not even just the subject matter, but how you are going to format your podcast.

Do you mind if I share just like a quick story?

Jared Correia: I love story time. Hold on, I am going to get my pajamas on. Go, I am ready.

Tim Baran: Well, you know I started a podcast, this was a year ago; I haven’t recorded anything in a while, and I started one because I wanted to find out more about something I am really interested in and I thought the best way to do that is to talk to people who are in this sector, right? I wanted to find out more about legal aid and access to justice, what’s being done in technology as it relates to access to justice. I am even thinking about getting into that space, where I am in right now, and I thought, what is a good way to do that, is it to have a Twitter conversation, is it to start writing about it in the form of like questions as opposed to answers, is it reaching out to people just arbitrarily and saying could we have lunch or a conversation?

And I thought no, the best way to do that is to start a podcast and invite guests who I admire and I want to learn more about from. And in thinking about that that’s how I structured the podcast, including the conversation and thinking about, who is my audience? Is my audience going to be the person trying to get legal help?

And then when you look at it, without any user testing or surveys you could say no, the first thing that people go to when they need legal help and can’t afford it is not downloading a podcast episode, it’s something else. And so then my audience, it’s like who is my audience, and I thought about the audience 23:08, the audience is me, and I wanted to learn more, I found these people interesting, and that’s how I made the podcast, in my view, interesting, and the feedback I got — after every podcast episode I would go and get feedback from a lot of people that I trust and then I would hone, I would change some of my styles.

Someone would say no, I want to hear more about their journey, but you started off immediately with what they do, the project they are involved with, I wanted to learn more about their journey.

So a way to make your podcast interesting is to think about how to make it interesting to you, the audience. Make it interesting for you, because it’s something that you are passionate about and then expand that audience.

Jared Correia: I think that’s great advice and like that’s true of any marketing you would produce is it you have to be interested in it and passionate about it. And it’s kind of cool that you started that podcast and you ended up working in that area. I am sure that is not a coincidence.

Tim Baran: Oh, Jared, it’s not a coincidence at all. I knew I wanted to. In fact, when I was at my job before this, I asked them, I said, look, could I take a day off, one day off the week, and I made it every Wednesday and pay me 20% less, because that’s taking the day off of five days, and I would just do something on that day that will shape the next half along this journey and I knew what it was, and it was that podcast; it took me almost 24 hours to produce it.

Jared Correia: I mean you answered this question partially I think, but I think a reason a lot of lawyers would consider doing a podcast is not only because they are interested in doing it based on the subject matter, but also because they want to use it as a marketing tool of some kind.

(00:24:55)

So is there a way to have like a mixed use podcast almost, where you are like selecting an audience of either other lawyers who will be able to refer cases to you or clients who could potentially work with you directly and still enjoy what you are doing, like how do you think one would like walk that tightrope?

Tim Baran: So I think a lot of lawyers forget that they have more than one persona out there that they want to appeal to or to address or to get known by, and it’s not just your potential client, but it’s also lawyers that can refer and not just lawyers that can refer you other cases but people in the legal industry, people in the legal aids space, people in the access to justice space, people in the legal tech space that you can be drawn into in some way in your capacity as a lawyer.

If you have something that you are passionate about, if you have discovered a really great way for client intake or for following up with a client, client service or process, we talked about legal project management, if that’s something that you are really passionate about and that you have found a way to make it work in your everyday practice, well, create a podcast just around that, don’t create a podcast on how to do a divorce because you are a divorce attorney, I mean, you can do that but there are a lot of folks doing that out there and then who are you appealing to.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: Right, are you taking to the person that actually needs a divorce because you are not listening to podcast.

Jared Correia: Yeah, well that’s the other question, you got like a bunch of attorneys, so it’s very competitive in especially like divorce, for example.

Tim Baran: Yeah and — exactly and then think about — again, think about your audience and I remember hearing a complaint, this was about a year ago. I said, yeah, I 26:44 podcast and it’s — I looked at the analytics and there was only 30 downloads and then six months later I’m only down to like up to like 150 downloads, I mean like, what is that, why is that worth my while, and then like my response was 150 downloads, when do you ever get the opportunity on a weekly basis to address a 150 people.

Jared Correia: Yes, excellent point, sir.

Tim Baran: Yeah, if you think about that.

Jared Correia: Yes, I think everybody wants to have like the big show, the big podcast, the big video, and like when it doesn’t happen like people don’t realize that you are reaching 20, 30, 50, 100 people you haven’t reached before, so that’s a great way to look at it.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: So, we have finished with part II. Let’s take a moment here. I’ll look for my good pajama bottoms. You can listen to some more words from our sponsors and we’ll be right back with Tim Baran from Pro Bono Net.

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Thanks for coming back, again. I hope you enjoyed your muffuletta sandwich, I know I did. Now, let’s get back to our conversation with Tim Baran of Pro Bono Net who is talking to me about podcasting; wait, that can’t be. We are podcasting right now, but it is, Tim, let’s talk more about our hypothetical lawyer podcast.

Tim Baran: Let’s do it.

Jared Correia: I think I know the answer to some of these questions but like if you are a lawyer looking to launch a podcast co-host or no co-host, guest or no guest, and scripted or unscripted –

Tim Baran: Ooh, ooh.

Jared Correia: These are the fast balls now.

Tim Baran: These are the fast balls. Okay, I would say, no co-host, if you are going to have a co-host make sure that you are doing it together in-person, yeah.

Jared Correia: Yes. I think that is a great point. It’s really hard to do remote co-hosting.

Tim Baran: A co-hosting rarely works unless you are in sync you have really an ongoing relationship or —

Jared Correia: Yes.

Tim Baran: — often that you are in the same room so that you can sort of feed off of each other and learn about each other and read your queries, your sort of physical queries.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: Guests, always. I have listened to podcasts —

(00:30:00)

Jared Correia: I thought so.

Tim Baran: Yeah, I have been to podcasts without guests and what they do instead of having guests is, they would bring in some anecdotes or bring in some snippets of interviews from other places or results of surveys and all that kind of stuff, but that’s a huge production lift and most people don’t have that, so —

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: — yeah, and in order to do that effectively that takes some production time and expertise.

Jared Correia: Well, I guess that’s the thing. I guess I’m assuming that this is just a one-man show, like somebody just wants to watch a podcast. They are not necessarily supported by engineering.

Tim Baran: Yeah, absolutely, so then definitely have a guest. What was the third one?

Jared Correia: Scripted or unscripted?

Tim Baran: Okay, scripted or unscripted. Oh, oh, unscripted for sure, but unscripted doesn’t mean that you —

Jared Correia: — doesn’t mean you do nothing to prep.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: You have no preparation. Preparation is key. As a host you have to have the format down, you have to have the technology down, you have to have all of the tools, you have to prep your guest in advance like this is the way, this is the format, this is the back and forth.

Here is an example of a previous podcast that we did, if you have some time maybe you can listen to it, here are some of the questions I’m coming up with, those kinds of things. And then of course, it doesn’t mean that you have to stick that script, you can riff off of it, but it’s good to have folks because when you — you can have the most gracious and easy going conversation with someone or once you turn that mike on even if it’s audio-only, something happens, some people freeze up.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: It’s good to be prepared.

Jared Correia: Absolutely, okay so semi-scripted.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: Let’s follow up on part of your answer to that last question. So if I’m a hypothetical podcasting lawyer do I try to market the show on my own or do I try to affiliate myself with a podcast network of sometime? Like, I don’t know, the Legal Talk Network? And I think the larger question too is like, how can lawyers fold the podcasting that they’re doing into like a larger content marketing program, and I view you as like an expert on this topic, so I’m interested in your response.

Tim Baran: So I would — let me start with a latter and in terms of folding a podcast into content marketing programming, oh, hell, yes, of course, you should. Look, your people like say content this and content that but what you are except like online, except a collection of the content that you produce, whether it’s a tweet or blog post or a podcast, so yeah, you fold that this into your voice.

And a way to do that is if you have a blog every time you have a podcast and I think you guys do that over at the Legal Talk Network, and then you have a podcast you do a write-up about it, some people put the entire script on there or some people would have really detailed notes, and I’m like, you know what, no, don’t do that, don’t go into all of that detail.

Jared Correia: Yes.

Tim Baran: But care enough to have a summary and may be pull out some of the links that may be people talked about that they reference in the podcast, but absolutely put it on a blog on your show — on your website. Another place you can put it on your website, which I have seen done in a really beautiful and productive way is to create a podcast page on your site.

Jared Correia: Got you.

Tim Baran: Sometimes people would say, oh, did you hear about Jared’s podcast? Yeah. They go and they are looking through your blog for a podcast, give them an easy out and just have them click on the Podcast tab.

Jared Correia: Yeah.

Tim Baran: So they could see a list of your podcasts. I have known folks who went after they have added that page, their podcast downloads have gone up significantly just because people go to that and it’s something to point people too. And, if you care about SEO and all the kinds of stuff, it’s also really good for that.

Jared Correia: Alright, this is good. Okay, so here is a good question for you, which I think you will like. What podcast needs to exist but doesn’t yet? Not including like the 37 you probably have planned.

Tim Baran: See, that’s almost a stumpy question.

Jared Correia: Yes.

Tim Baran: Even though if you perhaps because —

Jared Correia: You can say a podcast about podcasting —

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: But I think we will just feel that niche —

Tim Baran: Yeah, because you said this is a question that I would like, but I —

Jared Correia: — or maybe not, maybe I misjudged.

Tim Baran: I mean, there are a lot of podcasts like I would like to see from my own units. Let me turn this around just a little bit.

Jared Correia: Yes.

Tim Baran: You know what I would like to see —

Jared Correia: Make yourself feel comfortable, answer the question you would like to be asked.

(00:34:58)

Tim Baran: What I would like to see is for someone, and I think I mentioned this to you before, Jared. I would love to see someone create a podcast app where I can subscribe to episodes based on topics and guests.

Jared Correia: Yeah, that’s a cool idea.

Tim Baran: So if instead of subscribing to a podcast from a particular individual or a lawyer, whoever it may be, I would subscribe to whenever this topic appeared on any podcast or when Bryan Stevenson or Jared appears on any podcast as a guest, right?

Jared Correia: Yes, that’s a great idea.

Tim Baran: And do you know why would I like that because you sort of narrow down. I think as a species we are starting to —

Jared Correia: Oh we’re talking about humanity. I didn’t know we are going in that direction. Go on.

Tim Baran: I think we have been exposed so much to all of this like fire hose of information that we have done, and we’re starting to say — we’re starting to actually put aside things that we won’t sought were so important to and relevant to our everyday existence and say, no, this actually took away from the things that are really meaningful, the things that really have depth that we can get into and one of the reasons why I would like this is like all of a sudden you identify these three to five core things that you were interested in and instead of subscribing to a podcast that cover that but only once every 10 episodes, and then you waste trying to listen to it for the other nine, we are trying to be more productive in the way we use our time to consume information. So a long non-answer to your question that one I would like to see, what the kind of application I would like see built.

Jared Correia: Oh that’s even better. I asked you for a podcast, you created a whole new podcast application. I like what you did there.

Alright, my last question. You live in New York City, you love New York City, which I really can’t get my head around, like I have literal coyotes sleeping in my backyard probably right now, so I’m not a Manhattan guy. So can you tell me why Manhattan doesn’t suck? May be you want to come down?

Tim Baran: So, Jared, how much time do you have?

Jared Correia: Let’s try to keep it to like a minute.

Tim Baran: Okay, I will keep it to a few seconds, but I do romanticize coyotes in the backyard.

Jared Correia: As you should, they are delightful.

Tim Baran: Something that I could — I see pictures from Bob that Bob posts every now and then and you said you live next to Bob, and it’s just so beautiful, and I know like Carol and Mark they live in New Mexico and I want to go out there. It’s just so beautiful and I would like to visit, but I always love coming back to New York City. So I would say — you said three things, so no car.

Jared Correia: Three things, more less, yeah.

Tim Baran: I haven’t owned a car in almost 25 years and if I never own a car I would be very, very happy. No stove, I never cook.

Jared Correia: Oh really? Oh, that’s fascinating.

Tim Baran: Because all you have to do is come out, walk downstairs and there are bodegas and there is everything that you need, within a five-block radius of where you live.

Jared Correia: Okay.

Tim Baran: So I am going to go from no-no to positive, which is the energy, and I know that’s a thing that a lot of people don’t like about it, but I love that. I think what people miss about the energy of New York is that you don’t always have to be a part of it, you can just access it when you want to but when you want to it’s right there, it’s not a chore to get to. So it could be the shows, people, groups, restaurants, clubs, whatever is your interest, it’s right there to access. So, I mean, there’s a lot of downsides to it, but I mean, for me the positives far outweigh, yeah, and I still love it so much.

Jared Correia: That was very eloquent, I really enjoyed that.

Tim Baran: Thank you.

Jared Correia: That was beautiful.

Tim Baran: Does it make you want to move here, that’s a question?

Jared Correia: No.

Tim Baran: Okay.

Jared Correia: But I think I will visit with less of a cross look on my face.

Tim Baran: I must say though that everywhere outside visit, just sort of to wrap this up, the one thing I am struck with New York is it’s a person of color just being in a city that’s so diverse, you forget what other parts of America look like and the experience of someone like me in those parts. So for me when I was younger I thought where else in the United States would I want to live, and I could think about that about what would my experience be in this particular town.

(00:39:58)

Jared Correia: No, that’s really cool. That’s a great way to look at.

Tim Baran: Yeah.

Jared Correia: A lot of White people up here, I will say that. But I’ll tell what, you come up, we can write some coyotes.

Tim Baran: Alright, let’s do it, man.

Jared Correia: That was really great, like that was a much better, more eloquent, more beautiful answer than I anticipated. So that’s a good note to end on. Well done. You have made me not hate New York for the next half hour.

Tim Baran: My world, my gemstone.

Jared Correia: So as I just alluded to we’ve reached the end of yet another episode of The Legal Toolkit podcast. This was the podcast about podcasting and we have been talking with Tim Baran of Pro Bono Net.

Now, I’ll be back on future shows with further insights into My Soul, The Soul of America and the Legal Market.

If you’re feeling nostalgic from my dulcet tone, you can check out our entire show archive anytime you want at legaltalknetwork.com.

So, thanks again to Tim Baran of Pro Bono Net for making appearance as my guest today.

Alright, Tim, now you can tell everybody how they can find out more about you and about Pro Bono Net.

Tim Baran: Just a best way to connect with me is via Twitter which is tim_baran, and if you ever want to get in touch with me, I love just getting together, chatting, shooting debriefs of mutual interests and of which I have varied, and so you just connect with me on LinkedIn, shoot me a message there, I’ll send my cell number and then we could connect that way. So, yeah, I would love to connect.

Jared Correia: Easily accessible. Do you want to say anything about Pro Bono Net?

Tim Baran: Yeah, at the start of this podcast, we talked about my journey here and when I started the podcast it was with the intention of not just learning about the space but working in the space. I felt like all of my, the paths that I have been taking, all of these disparate paths in the legal sector was sort of leading me into this access to justice space.

And I joined Pro Bono Net last year and it’s just been an amazing journey. Pro Bono Net is this — a legal charity and technology advisor to folks in the access to justice, legal aid space to build the programs that would increase access to justice and to be a strategic partner, and Pro Bono Net has been around for about 20 years or so and I think we’re celebrating our 20th anniversary this year and I do a lot of work within one of the programs which is LawHUB New York and other programs including something around elder justice and crime victims.

So for me it’s just been — just such a privilege and a joy to be able to do what I love doing and know that it’s making a difference in people’s lives. So if you want to find out more about Pro Bono Net, it’s probono.net, that’s pretty easy, and LawHUB New York, it’s just lawhubny.org.

Jared Correia: That’s awesome. From the man who never drives anywhere, doesn’t touch a stove, but yet is still doing God’s work. Well done sir. Thank you for coming on.

Tim Baran: Thanks for having me, Jared.

Jared Correia: So that was Tim Baran of Pro Bono Net, and thank you all out there for listening. This has been The Legal Toolkit podcast where peace mode is our only mode.

[Music]

Outro: Thanks for listening to Legal Toolkit, produced by the broadcast professionals at Legal Talk Network. Join host Jared Correia for his next podcast covering the current business trends for law firms.

If you’d like more information about today’s show, please visit legaltalknetwork.com. Subscribe via iTunes and RSS. Find Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn or download the free app from Legal Talk Network in Google Play and iTunes.

The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders, and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.

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