Why Mentorship Matters More Than Ever for New Lawyers, with Joseline Hardrick

Episode Notes

Transcript

Stephanie Everett:

Hi, I’m Stephanie.

Zack Glaser:

And I’m Zack. And this is episode #599 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today I talk with Joseline Hardrick about her program Journey to Esquire, which helps non-traditional law school students transition into legal work in, I guess a more impactful way.

Stephanie Everett:

Well, it’s still around the first of the year, Zack. I’m going to claim it.

Zack Glaser:

We’re in month or two, something like that.

Stephanie Everett:

I’m like, wait, how is it? Almost already the end of January. But anyway, it is, which also means it’s not too late if you’re feeling, I think sometimes we’re like, oh, the start of the new year. It’s goal setting time. It’s time for me to get my focus. I guess one of my messages to you today is don’t feel bad if you haven’t gotten to that. I was telling the team this morning, I cleaned my office’s over the weekend and it felt so great to start today with a very clean desk and no pieces of paper. That’s normally something I do around New Year’s Day. Clearly I’m a little late, but it still feels better late than ever. Give ourselves some grace.

Zack Glaser:

I think that’s a good point because yeah, we can kind of feel like, oh, well, I lost the momentum because I didn’t quite get this done. I didn’t get a goal much less all my goals done or even created at the beginning because there’s a lot of things that you sit down and I fall victim of goal, fomo, just so many things I want to do. And then a lot of times I’ll just freeze and just be like, well, I ultimately don’t really set any goals sometimes, or you want to set 150 goals and when you’re focusing on everything

Stephanie Everett:

True, and it’s almost like we’re such perfectionist, US lawyers, we kind of keep stuck sometimes in that perfection. I could hear you being like, but I need to have the right goal or the perfect goal. And so

Zack Glaser:

How did these all come together into one? Yeah,

Stephanie Everett:

No, it totally resonates. And my pep talk to everyone who might be thinking, oh yeah, how do we do that? One of the things we did differently this year for our company in the past, we may have fallen victim two to setting five or seven or 10 company goals for the year, which is probably what you hear people do. You need all these goals, and this year we really got disciplined and we said, you know what? We’re going to have three. We’re going to have three primary focus areas for the entire company, and everything should tie back to these three things. And if they don’t, we’re not going to do ’em. Focus on them this

Zack Glaser:

Year. Getting down to 10 is tough or seven is tough, but three, I’m not going to say why three, but why that few? What’s the purpose there and what kind of drove I guess our leadership to say, let’s whittle this down even

Stephanie Everett:

More? Yeah, a lot. I mean, I will agree that it was not a simple process to get there. It’s not like we just woke up and said just three, but

Zack Glaser:

Three is the magic number

Stephanie Everett:

We put a lot of ideas on the board and you could see, but then the hard thing is, but where should we really focus? And so it’s like these three overarching principles that we really got to that said, we need to fix these first. If we really focus on these things or maybe fix, if we improve, if we unlock, if we leverage these things, then this really will impact other parts of our business, and these three things are the next steps that we need to take. And we realized, so let’s just focus on those and not try to fix 10 other things. I mean, maybe one could argue in the nature of the one big thing, different teams will get involved. That will cascade down. I mean, we’re a little bit larger company now, so there’ll be different team members who will connect their work to those three things. But really the other kind of key thing we really wanted, we wanted them to all be simple names. So just like our core values, our core values, everybody in our company, if asked to spit out our core values, they could because easy, they’re simple names to remember and there’s not too many of them. We wanted the same kind of thing with this. We think about our core values as the rules of the sandbox and how we’re going to work and show up every day and do our work. We wanted that same kind of thing for the company focus. How do we have quick two words that are easy to remember for each focus that once we unveil ’em to the company, everybody can be like, okay, we’re focused on this and I know it.

Zack Glaser:

I guess there’s an aspect of being able to keep this top of mind. Then if you’ve got 10 things, you’re not going to keep 10 goals top of mind.

Stephanie Everett:

Right? Yeah. I think that that really probably was the driving factor is how do we stay super focused on these things?

Zack Glaser:

So from a very practical standpoint, are these three things, a, and this may be a dumb question, but are these three things a decision that you made after you whittled down 10 or are they three things that are able to kind of encompass?

Stephanie Everett:

I think it’s the latter.

Zack Glaser:

There’s 10.

Stephanie Everett:

I worked with a firm once that also came up with three things for their year, and I think I have this right, but one of them was new leads coming in because they felt like that captured all their marketing efforts and business development efforts. So they could see, and it might’ve been new cases and not new leads, which would’ve even encompassed then the sales process. So that would be focus number one. Focus number two for them I’m pretty sure was some time aspect to their case, and I’m not going to get the exact right one, but they wanted to get so many cases to this stage by this time that showed that the operational machine of the litigation was working, that they were moving cases through their pipeline, not just the sales pipeline, but then the litigation pipeline and then, focus number three for them. The way they captured it, they ended up going with five star Google reviews, but it could just as easily be a client survey score NPS score, because for them that captured, is the team showing up great? Is the client having a good experience? Is the client more likely to send us referrals and be happy with our services? We can’t always control the result, but we can control how we show up for our clients and how we interact with them. So if you really boil down the essence of what we’re trying to do with our law firm to those three things, you could see how everything else flows from that.

Zack Glaser:

So it becomes more of a strategic decision than just a goal setting decision. I like that. Well, we have our State of the union where y’all will unveil those to the rest of the team coming up later this week. So I look forward to seeing those and putting them into my brain because theoretically they’re going to be easier

Stephanie Everett:

To remember. So I hope this inspires you guys. If you’re listening, I challenge you, could you come up with three primary goals or focus areas for the year instead of 10? And if you get stuck on it and you want to email me, happy to have you [email protected]. Happy to have a little chat with you about that too.

Zack Glaser:

Love that. Well, now here is my little chat with Joseline.

Joseline Hardrick :

Hi, I am Joseline Jean Hardrick and I am the law school pro. I assist the law students from admission to admission, so that’s admission to law school all the way to admission to theBar exam. I’m a professor at Equity law school. I teach criminal law, criminal procedure, constitutional law, really interesting topics to teach right now, by the way. And I am the founder of Journey to Esquire. We create lawyers who lead, mentor and inspire one student at a time. We do that through curated conversations, meaningful mentorship and personalized preparation in addition to cash scholarships. And we have had seven classes of students. We’ve helped over 80 students given out over $60,000, and we’re a small but nonprofit, and I’m excited to talk about all the different things that I do.

Zack Glaser:

Wow. Joseline, thank you for being with me. That is a lot of stuff. I’m glad that you did the intro. It would’ve been a lot for me to keep going with. You’ve got a lot of stuff going on.

Joseline Hardrick :

I do.

Zack Glaser:

And it sounds like you’ve got a pretty good eye into that space of entering into law school, obviously in law school, but then also entering into the legal profession. So I wanted to talk though specifically about your journey to Esquire program. This is the thing that had caught my eye and our eye. Could you tell me a little bit more about what that is? So you’re a professor at Cooley Law and separately, you’ve got this journey to Esquire program that you do.

Joseline Hardrick :

Yeah, and it’s interesting because I started it while I was a LawClerk at the Federal Courthouse in Tampa. I dealt a lot with the interns from the local law schools who would come work with the judges, and then word would spread and people are like, this Lady Johnson is the person to go to. And I just start kept giving advice and talking to individuals, and I kept trying to get other lawyers to join me, but it was tough because you want to help but you don’t know how.

Someone suggested, well, why don’t you turn it into a program? And then that way people can kind of plug in as they’re available. Not that’s a great idea. So I started during Esquire in 2018. I’m still a LawClerk, so I had to get my judge’s permission and everything, but I’m like, I’m going to do this after hours and on the weekends. And I literally just cobbled a program together based on researching other programs throughout the nation and programs that I was in, and they’re called pipeline programs.

So, when you’re trying to show someone the path to go somewhere, you’re creating that pipeline to make it easier and remove, like you said earlier, remove some of the friction. So these are some big friction points. I particularly worked with third year students when I started, because I found that law students, first of all, you remember law school, you’re just ready to get out your third year. You feel pretty beat up by then and you’re

Zack Glaser:

Just, but I have no idea how I’m going to do that, but yes, I’m ready to get out. And then

Joseline Hardrick :

It’s

Zack Glaser:

Like, but what is it? Yeah,

Joseline Hardrick :

Absolutely. And do what? Right. When I was in law school, I had a professor who sat me down and talked about judicial clerkships, for example, but I didn’t know what it was. I had no lawyers in my family. He said it was prestigious. That was his big sell. And I’m thinking, well, I got bills to pay and prestigious to pay my bills, right?

Zack Glaser:

Yep.

Joseline Hardrick :

And so that was one of the things I talked to the students about, what is a judicial clerkship? Why is it so valuable, and what does it really mean for you long term? I also talked about going into big law in a big law firm. I again, didn’t know anything about it. I just ended up having good grades. And people said, if you have good grades, law firms love you. So I go to their interviews and I got offers, but I didn’t know what that was going to mean to billable hours and book of business, all those things.

And I also wanted to talk about leadership. What I found was a lot of non-traditional law students who go to law school, they kind of just feel lucky. They got in like I did, and we are grateful, but we also don’t realize the power and influence we can have just with that law degree. And so journey to Esquire is about guiding students through a series of modules. So by the time they’re done with it, they feel more confident about what they want to do with their law degree, their ability to get back to their community, and they’re aware of even more options than when they came in of things they can do with their law degree.

Zack Glaser:

And so I’ve got a lot to unpack there. So I’ve got a lot of questions about this. So who is this for, then? You’re saying, I think most people who go into law school at least have some level of not knowing what’s on the other side of the door. Exactly. From my experience, I’m a second generation attorney. From my experience, I likely have less anxiety about that. I likely had more knowledge of what was on the other side of law school. So who is this program for then?

Joseline Hardrick :

Primarily, we target first generation college students,

Some first generation law school. But we found if you’re a first generation college student, you have to figure a lot of things out just to get into college. Oh, wow. Okay. And so law school becomes this other step. Furthermore, first generation college students tend to not always know that they’re going to go to law school. And so they tend to have a lot more debt and not realize how that’s going to impact their ability to graduate and choose their career. And then non-traditional students, like you said, we support veterans. I’ve had a lot of veterans in our program. I’ve had a lot of second career individuals, people who it always had the dream of going to law school, but they got kids and they got married, so now they’re like, I think it’s my time. So we’ve had a lot of people with children who are working full time in the program. We have one student who was a first generation high school graduate.

Zack Glaser:

Wow.

Joseline Hardrick :

Yeah. Parents are from Puerto Rico,

Zack Glaser:

First generation high school, graduate graduates, college graduates. Law school goes. That’s

Joseline Hardrick :

Impressive. Yeah. Now she’s a prosecutor and she has her own family, but it doesn’t just stop there. We’re also asking students, listen, if you want to just become a lawyer, make a lot of money, good for you. If you want to become a lawyer and you just got this one track mind, that’s cool too. But if you want to become a lawyer and you really want to become a leader in your community, we want to show you how to do that. And so through the interview process, we talked to the students about what is it that you really want to do with this title lawyer and how can we help you? And the best way I can describe it is we meet the students where they are, take their hand and ask them where they want to go. And if it’s somewhere we can help them, then we join them on their journey to ask Quire. So it allows us to really personalize the program to the student. But those are the primary focuses.

Zack Glaser:

What are the paths or where are the end points that you’re seeing and able to help people get to? Because there are some places that have a little bit more influence or a little bit more ability to give back than others when if you open up your own firm, you do have an ability to give back and do have an ability to influence. But it takes a while. It does. And so you kind of have to know that going in as opposed to potentially going to an establish larger firm and being able to have a little bit of impact maybe right off the bat.

Joseline Hardrick :

Yeah, exactly. So one of our class of 29 graduates, Brielle, she was actually going to my old firm, which was funny. When I met her, I said, oh, I went to that firm. Let’s chat. Then I said, by the way, I have this program. She said, I’ll try it. She was just ready to go to the firm and start her practice. But after talking to her about clerkship, she got really interested and she became a bankruptcy judge clerk, and she went into the bankruptcy practice. Now she’s doing all kinds of corporate law and a big million dollar transactions. Well, she initially wanted to be a police officer, and so when she was thinking law school, she was thinking prosecutor or something like that,

But we were able to open her eyes into other opportunities. And with a big firm, she’s been able to be that. She became the president of the board. She’s been on other boards, she’s been helped get sponsorships. And so those are kinds of things you get access to through a big law firm. And once you have a judicial clerkship behind you, people just trust you more. They’re like a judge trusted you to do their work. It just gives you all this extra gravitas and credibility. We had another young man who was here in Tampa, and he had a corporate job waiting for him at a local business in Florida, but he was actually from Georgia. And I said, what do you really want to do? He said, actually, I really want to go back home to Georgia and do some things there. And I’m like, have you considered a clerkship? If you get a clerkship with a judge there, that’s a great way to get reintegrated into the Georgia legal community. He rejected that corporate job, and I was like, are you sure? Went to work for a judge, and now he’s at a big law firm in Georgia and joined himself and it’s back home. So even that, he had no idea that that was something that could be open to him. So he’s doing well now.

Zack Glaser:

So other than not necessarily knowing that it’s a potential option, what are some of the other things that are in the way for non-traditional students getting to these clerkships and some of these other places along that pipeline?

Joseline Hardrick :

One of the things they have to learn is how important writing is. When I was thinking about law school and when most people think about lawyers, we don’t think about lawyers as writers. We think of them as speakers. We see them in court talking. We see them talking to clients, negotiate, but what 60, 80% of what we do is in writing. So getting students to understand it that early has been really helpful to get them prepared for something like a clerkship.

Zack Glaser:

That makes sense because anytime if you’re, again, I am second generation attorney, I think of my father as somebody who wrote very well. I always thought of him as somebody who wrote very well. Obviously he spoke very well, and he was a public defender, and so he was even in that role that you see on tv. And so I would imagine that some people’s only, or at least formative concept of what you can be as a lawyer is just TV images of the Courtroom.

Joseline Hardrick :

Exactly.

Zack Glaser:

Exactly.

Joseline Hardrick :

A lot of students I work with too, even after law school, they’re thinking, well, prosecutor, defense attorney insurance, they think those are the only three options. I’m like, have you thought about compliance? Have you thought about non-traditional JD jobs? A lot of them run for office. I don’t help them run for office, but I help them develop those leadership skills, the collaboration, the community building that’s really important to that. Here in Tampa Bay and in Florida, I think we have a hundred bar associations. Tampa Bay alone has probably 20. The students don’t know that there’s these huge networks around them that they can plug right into, but when you’re in law school, you’re in a little bit of a cocoon. And so I help them get out of that cocoon.

Zack Glaser:

Yes, yes. Okay. And just kind of expand what they’re looking at and see that the legal profession is pretty big. So what are some of the other struggles on coming out of law school and getting to these places? Are we talking, is journey to Esquire something that helps with Bar Prep? Is it something that helps? When I think about what you’re talking about here, and you’re talking about modules that people take, so we’re thinking about students while their three Ls are doing this type of thing. And is it also helping them with Bar prep? Is it also helping them with the licensing portion as well?

Joseline Hardrick :

Yes, we do. Initially, we thought the soft skills was what they were missing. So the modules was talking about giving back to the community. How do you interview? Well, making sure your resume, your LinkedIn, your social media presence. These young people are all over social media and they don’t realize everyone’s going to Google them. So we’ve had to help them learn that. And then eventually we started to see people really struggle with theBar exam, especially as we went into COVID and after.

And so the cash scholarships we provide is to help the friction of having to work while studying for theBar. That’s one of the biggest indicators that you might not pass the first time if you have to work. Like I told you, a lot of them have children, so they still had childcare. They still had car notes and insurance and all these bills that their student loans weren’t really covering. And then what I also learned was a lot of students have the intellectual capacity to do this work and pass theBar, but not the emotional regulation. And so we’ve connected them to therapists, meditation coaches who help guide them with this really tough part of your law school journey. Because in law schools, we call theBar Exam a sprint at the end of America. So studios are just exhausted by the time they get there, and they’re not giving it there all the way they need to. So we definitely have seen a dip overall in Bar Passage. And so we’ve had to increase our support in that area.

Zack Glaser:

And just to be clear, you’re saying a dip in overall bar passage across theBar, not a dip in bar passage in this program. It’s just a dip in Bar

Joseline Hardrick :

Passage all over the nation? Yes, yes, yes. Because there’s been changes to theBar exam. And then COVID just created, we have several graduates that went through most of their law school online, and so now they’re in this in-person environment trying to take this test with hundreds of other people at the same time, and they don’t know how to function right in that environment. And California had something going on. They’ve changed there. So all those changes are creating a lot of levels of friction for students. Nice about being a small but mighty nonprofit. We can adjust and adapt pretty quickly, and we’ve had to do that recently.

Zack Glaser:

Actually, the thing that was in my head here is that because of, I guess the size, and it seems like the connection that the people that are running this nonprofit have to this, you guys, it’s not like there’s three layers of distance from you two, the people that are actually in this program. What did y’all see, and this is just an interesting thing for me, what did you see during the COVID times that were different from what we might have needed in 2019? Because you said we started in 20 18, 20 19 than we have COVID. Were you seeing other things that you needed the help attorneys with, or I don’t want to say baby attorneys, but pre attorneys, law school students? Yes, new attorneys. That’s the word. Law

Joseline Hardrick :

School students. That epidemic of loneliness was really strong with students. One student in particular, Brion said, I didn’t realize how lonely I was until I would meet on Saturday mornings with you guys and realized I was looking forward to that so much to talking to you all really reflecting on what am I going to do as a lawyer? And they had so much more time on their hands, and so it allowed them to go deeper into modules. So our modules were hybrid to begin with, and they went completely online during COVID. And what’s interesting is we were one of the first people using Zoom. I had to tell people, you go to this website, you download. They’re like, what’s Zoom? And the next thing you know, it was all over the place. And I’m like, I should have invested in some stock.

Zack Glaser:

Oh man. Yeah,

Joseline Hardrick :

We were already adept to doing that and students needed a lot more emotional regulation than before working with students. Now I have law students who went through most of college online. They’re really having to learn how to communicate in person, how to network, how to build community in person. I remember when we go to work, you go knock on someone’s door, ask them a question, they’ll go to the courthouse with you. They don’t have those experiences anymore. Even how to dress has become a new thing. Surprisingly,

The yoga pants, you can’t wear yoga pants to work. And so we’ve had to have more direct conversations about what is appropriate dress. Yeah,

Zack Glaser:

I like that. That’s very funny because you say you can’t wear yoga pants to work for the listeners. I’m in sweatpants. I have a collared shirt on, but I meet with people via Zoom, and so I wear sweatpants a considerable amount to work. But I did have going to court, I was in a suit when I had my office. I was in a suit and a tie and all that. Exactly. So I could see where if you started like this and then going, I’m not, I’m going to put a belt on for this. It’s just a meeting. It’s a meeting with a client. Why would I put a tie on? Well, because you’re a lawyer.

Joseline Hardrick :

Yes. And I’ve had judges have to tell me that, what do we need to do to get these younger lawyers to dress appropriately? And I’m like, we have to educate. We’re taking it for granted. We really

Zack Glaser:

Are. I guess that’s a good question. What kind of feedback, what kind of direction are you getting from the places that you’re connecting students to? Some of these judges? I imagine you’re connecting to some judges maybe even multiple times. Are you getting feedback on like, Hey, love this from

Joseline Hardrick :

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Judges have served as mentors. Some of the students have graduated and they’re in court and the judges see ’em there. But what I love is that so many of our alumni have come back and served as mentors, and now they’re getting to do the thing someone else did for them. One thing, one of our mentors slash alums said was, I was helping this student negotiate her pay salary, and I literally just went through this myself. If I was not there and coaching her through it, she would’ve lost out on $30,000 on her salary. They were low balling her that much, and she didn’t know. And so she coached her through it and a direct impact right then and there. Now, that’s the kind of amazing things you get when you have meaningful mentorship, people who are going through what you’ve been through as well. We had Justice Peggy Quince, who was a Florida Supreme Court justice as one of the mentors. So that was nice. She actually went to the same law school as one of the students, and then I saw that student in New York at a pre-law conference. She was there paying it forward. And so that’s what I love about the program, how quickly the students really come back and get back.

Zack Glaser:

Well, that’s kind of what you’re saying from the front end though too, is that the part of the idea is to help these students get into a position where they can affect change, where they can affect positive change in a bigger way. So you meet with and talk with a lot of three Ls that are kind of getting out into the world or about to get out into the world. What is one thing that you wish all of them, I imagine you see a big deal of this. What is one thing that you wish all of them kind of knew going into, I guess bar prep or even looking at the next phase of the pipeline,

Joseline Hardrick :

That this part of the journey will be the longest part? It is the part that they have the most control over and that they can really have a lot of fun if they decide to bring joy into everything that they do. Definitely. That’s what I wish I knew more of, because the first year, that learning curve is so steep the first couple of years, and so you feel like you’re someone in law school.

But now, I was teaching just last night and I said, yeah, 20 years ago when I was in law school, and that was, wait, yeah, 2006. That was 20 years ago. I was like, hold on. So yeah, I’m not done yet. So the law schools, what, three years? And then the first couple of years can be tough, but the other 15 years have been very fun and it’s been what I make it, and it really can be, especially there are jobs now we don’t even know exist. And so if they keep an open mind, they can really write their own ticket and create a career of their dreams. I

Zack Glaser:

Like that. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t have known that legal tech advisor existed when I was getting out of law school. I think you’re right. But again, I’m second generation attorney, so I got out and went working with father and had somebody built in that would go to the courthouse with me, tell me how to dress. He would walk in and go, oh, we have an off day today. When I would not be in a tie, I would come in five days late and he’s like, oh, we’re just, we’re off today. Great. Did you bring the afternoon paper? Thank you. He was a card. And so that was his way of mentoring me. And so you have the built in. So if people, not, obviously not everybody’s going to be in Tampa, what would you say to attorneys that are listening to this that think, Ooh, I’d like to do something like that, but I don’t have the time, or I don’t want to jump in that far? What’s something that they could do? I hesitate to say easily, but easily with the time

Joseline Hardrick :

They have. Yes, if you go to join to esquire.com/cle, we have some CLEs there. If you’re a Florida attorney, you can get credit. But if you’re not, some of those CLEs are really designed to show lawyers how to mentor new attorneys and law students. I would say do the things that was done for me. Lawyers just would take me out to lunch and just chat and listen and say, Hey, what do you want to do? And I’m like, Hey, I’m thinking of this. Let me connect you to people that I know that’s really easy to do.

I would tell ’em to plug in with a program because a lot of people try to reinvent the wheel and that’s when they get overwhelmed. And so for my program, when the mentors would sign up, I said, you only have to meet with them twice. Once in the fall, once in the spring. And they have a mentor module where I train them on what they have to do as a mentee. And so I’m like, if the onus is on them to reach out to you to get a date on the calendar, to ask you specific questions and to identify things they need help with. And so if you plug in with of court, your local bar association and things like that, it becomes a lot easier. And that way you can, as you’re available, you do it. And when you’re no longer available, you pull out. Right now I have a three and a half year old and 11-year-old. My life is really busy, so I tell people I’ve had to pull away from some other things, but the website is still there. We have a podcast as well. We have a YouTube channel. We have all these resources. And so really sometimes students just need someone to connect with them and then connect them to something else and something that small can make a big difference.

Zack Glaser:

I like that. Well, before we go, how can people connect with you? Where’s your information? What’s the website and how can they connect with you if they’d like to?

Joseline Hardrick :

So my personal website is joselinehardrick.com, my first and last name.com, fora esquires journey to esquire.com. I keep it real simple, and if you want to get on my calendar easy enough. For example, if you are interested in starting your own version journey to Esquire, which I’d love goes one of my goals to make it a little package that anyone can pick up and replicate. I haven’t done there yet, but I’m always open to talking to people. You go to meetwithJoseline.com, you can get on my calendar and I’d love to talk to you about it. Yeah, it’s that easy.

Zack Glaser:

It is. Even though it’s that easy, we’ll still drop all of those links into the show notes and I’d love to chat

Joseline Hardrick :

With people, Lord.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, Joseline, I really appreciate your time and I appreciate you explaining all this and sharing your journey and your knowledge with our listeners. Thank you.

Joseline Hardrick :

Thank you for having me. I was excited when Sam reached out and he’s my fellow classmate and he does the legal tech too. I’m still trying to figure out what he does.

Zack Glaser:

I think

Joseline Hardrick :

He’s doing it well.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, for everybody out there, we’re talking about Sam Harden, one of my coworkers, and yeah, he is very well plugged into legal tech, so follow him. If you want to know some good legal tech insights. Well, Joseline, again, thank you. So

Joseline Hardrick :

Much comes too, so I appreciate it. Okay, well thank you. Oh, great. Great. I was saying, yeah, he came and spoke and does some stuff on AI and just fun fact, he’s hard in, so we were right next to each other during graduation, and that’s our claim to faint.

Zack Glaser:

I love it. It is fun how in law school there are so many little coincidences or moments that connect you to somebody, and just to bring this around, that’s kind of what Journey Squire is about, is creating those intentionally, creating those moments to connect people to somebody that they’ll remember the rest of their career and the rest of their life.

Joseline Hardrick :

That’s exactly it, Zack. Thank you for that.

Zack Glaser:

Well, thanks Joseline. I really appreciate it.

Joseline Hardrick :

Thank you. Bye.

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