#539: This VOICE HACK Will Transform Your Legal Career!, with Rena Cook

Episode Notes

Transcript

Stephanie Everett (00:12): 

Hi, I am Stephanie. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:13): 

And I’m Zack Glaser, and this is episode 539 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today’s Stephanie talks with Rena Cook about the power of a speaking coach. 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:24): 

Happy New Year, Zack. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:25): 

Happy New Year to you, Stephanie. This is a time of resolutions and new things, so I’m not a good person for resolutions. I just don’t do ’em. But I know that you do a lot of goal planning every year. You do like family goal planning, don’t you? 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:48): 

Yeah, I’m a little crazy. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:52): 

I don’t know. It seems to be working. 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:55): 

Yeah, I do this mind mapping exercise on the first of every, it’s like my favorite thing to do on New Year’s Day, and I get out colored pens and I look at all my past years, and then I do like where am I going to be one year in three years, in five years? And occasionally when I look back I’m like, I did those things. Not always, but usually at some point I do those things. But this year, well, as we’re recording this, in all fairness, I have not done it yet, but I can say this, for many years, something related to my health has been on the list, which is probably familiar to all of us, and I happen to have a pretty big birthday coming up in a few months. I mean, I’m not shy. I’m turning 50. Congratulations. Yes. So what I’m most proud about is I decided in early December to get a personal trainer. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:53): 

Oh, cool. 

  

Stephanie Everett (01:54): 

Yeah, so I’ve actually already been working out, started working out before the holidays. Some people were like, wait, you’re not going to go with the January rush? And I’m like, no, I’m not going to wait. I just got to get started. And I had been talking about this for so long and I’ve bought so many different videos and programs and I always say like, okay, I’m just going to get up and do it. And I can tell you, I found this gym really like a workout area. I don’t know. It’s very close to my house. It’s only for women. And really it seems to be that all the women in there are well into their over 40 if I’m being honest. 

  

(02:31): 

And the way in, you get a personal trainer and it’s a small group working out, and it is already making such a difference. It’s that accountability, right? I know that this, even when I went for my first assessment and I then I went on the road for two weeks solid. So I wasn’t able to do my first week workout for two weeks, but I ate differently on that trip. And I got up a couple of times and I actually went to the gym, in the hotel and it was super intimidating. There were a bunch of people in there that seemed to know what they were doing, and I’m like, just going to do some pushups and squats in the corner. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:10): 

I think that’s important to think about because that is anytime you’re entering into a new thing or learning a new thing, that is really difficult to go in and learn something new and be the new person. Especially as lawyers a lot of times, because we’re so used to knowing what’s going on and we do so much research and a lot of times we’re the adult in the room. But it’s empowering too to get in there and to see you also see so much growth so quickly. 

  

Stephanie Everett (03:46): 

Yeah, I am super excited about it. I already feel better. I mean, I almost died my third trip. I thought I was going to die. I had to tell myself, going to die, you’re not going to die. You’re not dying. I mean, you might be, but you’re not. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:01): 

I do the same thing. So I go to a personal trainer as well twice a week, and it’s that accountability. I know my way around a weight room, I know my way around a track and I can run. But a, it’s the accountability, but also he’s an expert. He is. I mean, really, I went into the weight room the other day on my own and worked my legs and I was like, oh, I’m sore one spot when I go work with him, I’m sore everywhere. You can tell that that it’s better. But I wouldn’t go if it wasn’t for him. A lot of times I’m thinking about skipping this afternoon, but I’m going to go because I would have to call him and tell him I’m not coming. And I think that’s one of the big things about a coach. But yes, every now and then when I go in there, I walk away and I’m like, I can’t drive home. I’m going to pass out. I am dying. This is it. This is the end. 

  

Stephanie Everett (05:06): 

And also the other, today’s, he actually was like, I’m not going to kill you. So I don’t want someone to hear this and think, well, I don’t. I think part of what also kept me from getting started was I’m going to hurt. 

  

(05:21): 

So while it’s good that you get that workout, I want to encourage other people. Don’t let that fear be the reason you don’t do it. You could talk to the person and say, listen, I’m just getting started, and maybe you even confess. I’m a little nervous about this, and I’m worried that if I’m just sore and nothing else for the first couple of weeks, I am going to get discouraged. Honestly, my first workout, he was like, Hey, I’m going to go easy on you. Everyone else is doing this many reps. You’re just going to do this many. And then at the end he’s like, you did good for today. And then he texted me the next day and he’s like, how you doing? And I was like, you know what? I’m not as sore as I thought I was going to be. And he was like, great, keep drinking. So I just want to encourage everyone because I will say that that fear of you’re going to hurt, it’s going to be awful. 

  

(06:06): 

So it can be hard, but you could also tell, and in this gym of the yesterday, one of the women was like, yeah, I’m not doing that. She’s like, can you modify that for me? Whatever. So you are an adult and can help, but I would encourage people, I’m really excited and proud of myself because I can’t tell you how many years I’ve been like, this is the year I’m going to make something happen. And finally, but I realized I’m not going to get it done on my own. I need that extra help. So if you’re thinking like that, I want to encourage you to take that step. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:43): 

Yeah. It’s just that what is it? It’s not the gym, it’s the cab. It’s the taking that first step and getting there. Absolutely. Well, now here is Stephanie’s conversation with Rena. 

  

Rena Cook (06:56): 

Well, hi there. I’m Marina Cook and I’m a voice and speech trainer who within the last 10 years got interested in helping women in law, women, attorneys. Voice wise women are held to a different standard, and it’s unfair, perhaps. Well, it’s definitely unfair, but it’s a reality that we live with and what do we need to do with our voices and our body language, with our presence, with our breath to be the most effective and persuasive we can be in front of judge and jury. And this work is not just trial related in depositions, in client intake conversations, all kinds of conversations within the legal world. Our voices count, and that’s what kind of got me interested in working with women attorneys in this subject area. 

  

Stephanie Everett (08:05): 

Oh, I love that. And I can’t wait to dig in because I mean, yeah, even in non-litigation world, right, negotiations like how we show up matters, and I think as I was preparing for our talk today, I was just thinking about our voice is a tool that everybody has. I mean, I guess technically not everyone, there could be people with vocal impairments, but let’s just say most of us have this tool that we’re born with and we probably never really think about how we intentionally use it or don’t 

  

Rena Cook (08:37): 

Use it. Well, we don’t think about that. We take it for granted that our voice is going to be there when we need it, but women especially, we get called to task all the time, and we see this particularly in the political environment. Oh my God, I can’t stand her voice. Can’t you do something to help? Oh my gosh, her voice makes me run screaming into the night. And there are ways that we can make our voices more compelling, not aggressive, but still strong and powerful by how we use the body. The voice is just made up of muscles and it’s muscle memory. We can learn to use the voice in a different way and still be ourselves. A lot of people that come to me for coaching are initially apprehensive because they don’t want to sound inauthentic or coached. They want to sound like themselves. And what I tell them is, you will sound like yourself, but a better version of that sound. You can learn to use the muscles in your body in a different way to make a sound that is strong, compelling, and confident, but warm and open so that you draw people to you rather than pushing people away with your voice. 

  

Stephanie Everett (10:09): 

Yeah, fascinating. Okay. When we talk about voice, I suspect there’s even multi-layers to it because as you were talking, I was imagining, is it the tone that you use? But then it could be, I mean, you’re the expert here, so I should just ask you more the open-ended question. What all is encompassing when you say the word voice? 

  

Rena Cook (10:33): 

I’m so glad you asked. Tone of course is part of it, and tone is quality, and the quality of our voice happens in the vocal track, which is the mouth, the upper throat and the nasal cavities, and how open, how closed that system is, determines the quality of your voice. For example, I can make my voice highly nasal by changing the shape of my mouth, or I can make it warmer, like bedtime story warmer by making more space in the back of my mouth. And by learning how to release jaw release, tongue lift, soft palette, we can change the quality. Another aspect of voice is breath. Breath powers the voice, what you hear and recognize as human speech, sound is breath. And let me give you a sample of my voice. When I’m not breathing, I’m going to blow out all my air, and this is my voice. 

  

(11:51): 

Without breath, I take a nice big breath, and this is my voice on breath. So how I breathe and when I breathe determines the power of my voice. And then the amplifier is the vocal track, the mouth I call the mouth your megaphone, and then how you stand is another part of the voice. If you lock your knees under pressure, it makes the voice sound strident, and it’s that female stride that sends our male colleagues screaming into the night. So by softening the knees, lengthening the back of the neck, we can make the voice warmer, more inviting, without sacrificing power, without sacrificing confidence and command manned. 

  

Stephanie Everett (12:50): 

I love that. So what tips do you give people who are just getting started thinking about this? I feel like I’ve never been so thoughtful about how I sound than in this episode. I know, right? I’m catching myself thinking about what am I? Am I breathing? I 

  

Rena Cook (13:11): 

See you as I was talking, you were changing the shape of your mouth to see what that feels like. Well, something is simple and we can just try this as biting an apple. If you imagine that you’re getting ready to bite, that lifts the soft palette and makes the voice sound warmer. Also, when I want to project in a larger space without having to shout that shouting sound is like, can you hear me? Nobody wants to listen to that. But if I lift my soft palate and lengthen the back of my neck, I get more volume without sounding like I’m shouting. So going back to your question, what are the tips that I give when I start? I first talk about voice, and then I go into speech and presentation and kind of the acting end of the work that I do. I come from the theater. So everything I do is kind of based in theatrical training, actor principles. But the first thing is figuring out how to stand in natural alignment without effort. So it’s the way I was organized to stand without that military effort, 

  

Stephanie Everett (14:35): 

Right? 

  

Rena Cook (14:35): 

10 hut is not natural alignment, so easy alignment, and as I mentioned, knees soft and feet grounded to the floor gravitas. And that’s something that all attorneys need when they go into a courtroom is gravitas. And that starts with our feet connecting to the floor, not floating, not pacing, just solidly connected. Knees are soft. And then we go from how I stand, how I sit to breath, and how do we breathe deeply and centrally. Most people breathe high and shallow when they breathe. We can see the chest and shoulders going up as you see me doing now, but that’s not a deep breath. When I breathe into my belly, my chest and my shoulders don’t move. And when I want to speak in a professional setting, like a legal environment, I need to connect at my belly level. Now, we breathe at every punctuation or every thought shift. Something that I tell my beginning speakers is the audience can only understand and take in seven to nine words that they need you to take a breath. So if I have a lot of facts and I give them all without breathing, the audience loses the train of thought. So I need to structure my thoughts, my opening, my closing, my questions for a deposition, structure them in a way that I am breathing every seven to nine words. The audience doesn’t mind a beat of silence for you to take a breath. So we spend a lot of time in early sessions on integrating the breath, 

  

(16:44): 

And then of course we spend time opening the vocal track, jaw, tongue, soft palate. All of that is open and relaxed. We don’t understand how much tension we carry in our jaw, in our tongue, and that adds the stride to the voice. The woman whose voice is like this has got tongue tension and jaw tension. So it’s releasing tension that block sound waves. So then the next step is inflection. Inflection communicates meaning you only have to think back to your most boring professor who never changed the pitch. Er, er. It’s boring. We inflection communicates meaning. It’s like if I’m doing comparison, it’s apples or it’s oranges. And in law we do a lot of comparison. It’s good or it’s bad. But if you hear good, bad, you intellectually go, oh, comparison. But when you add inflection or pitch change, it’s good or it’s bad. It’s apples or it’s oranges. So when we have that inflection or pitch change, the audience gets more of the information. So there I have the techniques of getting us to excess, authentic pitch variety. Over the course of a sentence, we bring up keywords and let words that are not keywords drop away a bit. So from there, then we get into acting the message, which is another whole conversation. How do I get people to feel what I want them to 

  

Stephanie Everett (18:51): 

Feel? This is so fascinating. I hope everybody who’s listening right now is just taking it all in and thinking, because it really does make you think, and for me, I know I tend to speak very fast, so that seven, a 

  

Rena Cook (19:09): 

Lot of people do. 

  

Stephanie Everett (19:10): 

So the seven to nine words is probably something where I would struggle because it sort of forces you to then slow down, 

  

Rena Cook (19:18): 

Slow down. It does, absolutely it does. Because we speak fast because we’re afraid we’re going to run out of juice before we get to the end of the sentence, and then we squeeze out those last few words 

  

(19:30): 

And the audience gets nervous for us, the listeners go, they may not consciously know, why am I nervous? What is it about this speaker that’s making me unsettled? And it’s the speaker is not breathing for me. I just get excited. I just get so excited that I have so much to say, and I do the same thing because I’m a hyper excited person, but when I get up here, I have to take a breath and bring myself back to my baseline so that I can rebuild again. Because when you get up here and you never take a break and go back to baseline, people have stopped listening. 

  

Stephanie Everett (20:13): 

Yeah, you’re reminding me. When I was a young attorney back in the days when we had offices, I know some of you still do, but I work remote now. I would be in my office and I’d be on the phone with opposing counsel most likely, and my law partner, who is a man or was a man, we’re no longer partners, but he’s still a man. He would come into my office and he would hear me on the phone and he would say deeper, slower. He was hearing me talk, and he was always encouraging me to lower my voice and to slow down because I mean, he thought it made me sound more confident. 

  

Rena Cook (20:51): 

Well, there’s some truth to that. Lowering in pitch doesn’t necessarily do the trick, and I’m going to show you about that. The pitch that men talk about with our voices, that’s the thing that they recognize. I don’t have to have a lower deep voice in order to be taken seriously. When I am doing that, I’m depressing my larynx, which is my voice box, and it doesn’t sound like me, and this sound will eventually make me vocally fatigued. But if I open my resonators, I sound like an adult. If I take away the resonators, I’m talking in the same pitch that I was before, but it sounds like a little girl pitch until I open my mouth, relax the jaw. It’s the same pitch. I’ve just added resonance. I’ve added vibrations of a bigger, more open tube coming out. My mouth. My mouth, and let’s see, where were we going with that? 

  

Stephanie Everett (22:07): 

Well, just that my partner was wrong, 

  

Rena Cook (22:10): 

Which is 

  

Stephanie Everett (22:11): 

Usually the case. 

  

Rena Cook (22:12): 

Well, just about the pitch thing, and it’s the way that men particularly talk about women’s voices. It’s too high. 

  

(22:23): 

If you go to a voice coach and say, my voice is too high. If it were me as your coach, I would help you release jaw, release tongue and make a bigger space and mouth, which would add more resonance and wouldn’t sound to the ear so high. The other thing about talking too fast, once we train how to breathe deeply and it’s no longer, oh, I have to think about how I’m breathing, and it’s just second nature, then you just breathe. If I get too excited and I’m talking too fast or I’m talking too high, I release my belly and a new breath drops in and I’m back to my vocal baseline, and then I can rebuild from there or stay in this really comfortable place where most listeners will want to stay with me and attend and listen as well. 

  

Stephanie Everett (23:27): 

For those who might be feeling like this, all sounds great and intimidating. I mean, I know where you’re going to answer, but I’m just still going to ask the question, which is how long does it take for you to be able to do all these things with your mouth and your jaw and your breath, and it still feel natural, which is, I think where you started is people are worried that this feels very inauthentic. 

  

Rena Cook (23:53): 

Inauthentic. You want to sound authentic. I tell my clients that I need 10 sessions with them to lay the foundation and to practice with them enough so that they can carry on. I have several books. Her voice in law is one of them, and it goes through step-by-step from the beginning how to develop the voice and goes through the exercises. There’s a video component, so if someone can’t work with me but wants to do the work, there are videos available that will help you. If you think about how many hours you spent learning the law, and that voice is 50% of your work when you are in any legal setting, the way you communicate is half of the challenge. Why not spend a little bit of time making your voice and your body language as effective as it can be to support your tremendous knowledge of the subject? 

  

Stephanie Everett (25:02): 

Yeah, I mean, in law school, we had a class where we had a trial techniques and we had to learn, this is where you stand and this is where you walk. And when you’re asking this type of question, you might face this way, or do you face the jury? We learn that there are some techniques to perfect the skill, but if I’m being honest, I don’t think the voice component 

  

Rena Cook (25:22): 

Was ever a piece of that was ever dealt with, right? No, it’s really not. And I think it’s fully 50% of the job because if, look, you are a lawyer, you’ve been in trials, lawyers that have good storytelling technique have good voice technique, they are more compelling and more captivating and frequently do better than their colleagues who don’t have their presentation as mastered litigation is just acting with a knowledge of the law. It’s how I would train actors. 

  

Stephanie Everett (26:06): 

Yeah, for sure. And I think the good news here is I remember being in many courtrooms where those natural, just like you said, they kind of rise to the top. They capture your attention. We can all probably right now think of some people who stand out to us that way, but here’s the good news. We just assume that’s a natural talent. That person was born with those skills, or somehow maybe they developed them unknowingly and they’re masters in the courtroom. But what I’m hearing from today is actually with a little bit of practice and some intention, all of us can really rise to that level, or at least perfect where we are now to really be able to 

  

Rena Cook (26:44): 

Absolutely. To 

  

Stephanie Everett (26:45): 

Command that audience. Yeah, absolutely. 

  

Rena Cook (26:48): 

Lemme just share a quick acting technique that is extremely helpful. We take individual words for granted, but when we are presenting a compelling argument, nouns are the most important words. Let me just give you a little quick exercise. Say the word mother as if it’s a completely neutral word. Just say it, mother, and now think about the last best experience you had with your mother. Feel it in your heart, and then say the word mother. Yes. Now, think about the time that she made you so angry you were ready to divorce her. 

  

Stephanie Everett (27:34): 

Mother. 

  

Rena Cook (27:36): 

Now say the Yes. Exactly. So I teach that technique to attorneys. If you are saying, this young man was raised in a ghetto, if I just say this young man was raised in a ghetto, I don’t have a thought in my heart about who he is or about where he grew up, but if I imagine that ghetto, then the word comes out of my mouth in a way that the audience feels it too. It’s not an accident. When you make a jury go the journey with you and believe in their heart what you’re saying to them, and it’s how you use the words. 

  

Stephanie Everett (28:23): 

And I was just going to say that it applies. You’re giving the jury example, but this applies whether you’re in a boardroom in negotiations, talking with your clients. I mean, really. Exactly. So much of the work we do, we are using our voice. 

  

Rena Cook (28:40): 

Exactly. 

  

(28:42): 

And some people feel fear sounding like a salesman, right? It’s like, oh, okay, I’ve mastered this, and now you’re going to believe what I have to say. No, no, no. That’s not what this technique teaches. It teaches you to grab hold of your own heart and to feel and to see, and when you feel and see the audience or the listener or the jury or that one person sees and feels as well. So when I coach, it’s not like I’m training people to be slick and inauthentic. I’m training them to connect with their own heart to be authentic and then help the person that they’re talking to feel and see it to. And that’s how you get the jury on your side. You want them to like you enough that they go into the jury room and advocate for you and your client, right? 

  

Stephanie Everett (29:47): 

Yeah. No. 

  

Rena Cook (29:47): 

And if you haven’t moved them in some way to feel they’re not going to believe you . 

  

Stephanie Everett (29:56): 

And to connect with them and not turn them off. Unfortunately, I remember when I went to court, I would always just try to wear, I would want to be a blank page. I didn’t want to be flashy. I didn’t want my jewelry. I wanted to fade in the background, so they would focus on my client and the case, but at the same time, if I don’t connect with them in my presentation, then they’re not going to be that advocate for me. 

  

Rena Cook (30:24): 

Absolutely. And connecting with a jury is the same as connecting on a personal level. With any relationship that you have, you’re trying to get a new client, or you are in a boardroom or you’re in an interview situation, you want to connect on a human level. Part of that is eye contact. Part of that is staying connected to your own breath. Part of that is being present for them. When you look into their eyes, every juror wants to see your eyes. At some point, they want to know that you have seen them, and equally when you’re talking, you’re questioning or you’re in a deposition. That eye contact, that being present with the breath, when I’m listening to someone, I am focusing on breathing deeply so that I am truly present for them. The deep breath quiets the insanity in my mind, that voice that’s always talking to you, if I’m breathing deeply, it quiets that voice so that I can be present for the person that I’m interacting with or the people that I’m interacting with. 

  

Stephanie Everett (31:48): 

Most of us probably aren’t aware how much we actually use our voice in the day. And do you have some tips before we leave about how we can protect our voice? Because I think 

  

Rena Cook (31:59): 

Absolutely. 

  

(32:01): 

Absolutely. The easiest way to protect the voice is to warm it up before you’re going to use it. And I have a little vocal warmup that I do every morning during my routine, and even if it’s as simple as humming or humming a tune that gets the vocal folds working in a healthy way, and then I’ll maybe go to open vowel sounds just to get the vocal folds motoring. Then I spend some time breathing into my belly deep breathing so that my breath is connected. When I’m going through the day and my voice feels like it’s getting tired, I deepen my connection to breath and I lengthen the back of my neck. That gives me more space around the vocal folds, and as soon as I feel like, whoa, that sound didn’t feel good, then I back away from the offending effort. I want to end the day as vocally solid as I started the day, and getting vocally tired is a symptom that you are overusing the voice or not using it correctly, and that’s an easy fix. 

  

Stephanie Everett (33:26): 

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Because I think most of us don’t even realize it. I was talking to a voice coach, I mean, it’s probably been six or eight months now, and she was asking me all these questions about then, how many podcasts do you do? And then all the things that I do in a day, and she’s like, how is your voice? She basically, whatever she asked me, but it got in my head. I feel like my voice has been tired ever since that conversation. Well, the 

  

Rena Cook (33:53): 

Best thing you can do is to drink water 

  

(33:56): 

To stay hydrated because the vocal folds dehydrate really fast because we’re blowing air over the vocal folds. When they’re not moist, they’re going to get tired. So drinking water through the day is really helpful. Breathing, making space, lengthening the back of the neck, all of those things help to take the effort off the vocal folds. Awesome. Your vocal folds are only as big as my two thumbnails, right. They’re tiny and they vibrate against each other hundreds of times a second when you’re making sound and to give them space and hydration and breath, you are taking care of them. 

  

Stephanie Everett (34:46): 

I love it. Well, this has been, I mean, we have just learned so much in such a short period of time. I want to make sure we’ll put a link to your book, and I know you also have a TED Talk, I think that you’ve done and maybe some other resources that if people want to learn more about you, is there someplace they should go and visit 

  

Rena Cook (35:03): 

My website, my vocal authority.com. Awesome. My vocal authority.com or just Google my name and it will go to the website, but the TED Talk and the books and other free videos of vocal warmups and so on are there, and I love to coach. I love to travel to coach teams and get them ready for big trials. That’s something that I really love to do. 

  

Stephanie Everett (35:35): 

Awesome. I mean, you’ve probably just enlightened a lot of people. They didn’t even know this work existed, so I’m super excited that you were able to join me today and have this conversation. So thank you so much. 

  

Rena Cook (35:46): 

Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for having me. There’s nothing I love more than talking about the voice. I am a voice geek. 

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