#535: Lawyer Burnout: 5 Hidden Signs You’re About to Crash, with Natasha Evans

Episode Notes

Transcript

Zack Glaser (00:12): 

Hi, I’m Zack. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:13): 

And I’m Jennifer. And this is episode 535 of the Lawyerist podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network today, Zack, it’s the guy right there, talks with our lab coach Natasha Evans about how holidays are kind of stressful, but it doesn’t mean you need a diagnosis or something official to work on your mental health. Anyone can do it. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:34): 

Yes. And today’s podcast is brought to you by TimeSolv, so stick around and you’ll hear my conversation with them a little later on. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:42): 

Do you solve time with them? Time as a concept? 

  

Zack Glaser (00:48): 

Sure. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:48): 

Okay. Just checking. Yeah, I mean, I’m really interested in time. I think it is sort of the religion of the mind anyways. So what do you do for fun, Zack? 

  

Zack Glaser (00:57): 

Oh, man. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:59): 

Because you talk about this with Natasha doing something for fun that’s not competitive, that’s just for you. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:07): 

Yeah, yeah. Well, so you’ll hear on the podcast, I do a lot of Legos. I do a lot of tinkering just for fun. I do puzzles. I mean, 

  

Jennifer Whigham (01:18): 

I have a fear of jigsaw puzzles. Go ahead. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:20): 

Oh man. I do any kind of puzzles. I do jigsaw puzzles. I do riddles, love, love Me some riddles. Used to do a lot of riddles with my father when I was younger, and I really like good riddles because I’ve heard a lot of ’em. And so once you’ve heard a bunch of ’em, then many times it’ll be like there’s a puddle on the floor and you’re like, ice. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (01:51): 

It’s ice. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:51): 

That’s it. Ice. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (01:51): 

How do you remember that one? Do you have a favorite? I mean, we don’t have to solve it. You can just say real quick and then our listeners can at us and tell us the answer. Do you have a quick favorite riddle? You can tell the listeners at home. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:05): 

No, I don’t. Oh, no, I’m sorry. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:08): 

It’s okay. Sorry to put the pressure. We’ll ask the troll. We’ll ask a bridge troll who classically has a riddle after this. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:17): 

I think that’s the thing. Automatically I go to the Sphinx Riddle or whatever, and then I’m like, it’s the hard one that’s kind of lame to come out with. And then all the other ones I have are really complicated and I can’t remember them off the top of my head. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:30): 

Okay. That’s okay. I won’t do that to you again. No pressure. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:33): 

Yeah, thanks for putting me on the spot, Jennifer. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:34): 

For Zack. There’s no competition in it. I do it just for myself. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:39): 

Well, you’re the best at it . 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:40): 

That is the key. I’m the best at it. You know what I do for fun? I’m going to tell you what I do for fun that I didn’t realize was a personality trait until my husband got me an advent calendar. And it is a National Geographic advent calendar where you have a different rock or gemstone and every day that you open, because I collect rocks from all over the streets and from people’s yards that I think are interesting. And I never didn’t know that about myself until he pointed it out and got that for me. I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I like rocks. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:17): 

You collect rocks like a 6-year-old collects rocks. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:21): 

I do. And sticks. Interesting. Sticks like a dog. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:27): 

I love it though. That’s the thing is like, yeah, it’s not competitive. It is something that you’re like- 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:33): 

Nobody’s competing with me on this, let me tell you. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:37): 

I hope not. And I hope if somebody does try to come and compete with you on that, you’re like, just go away. Throw a rock down. Just this comes about in our conversation, in my conversation with Natasha and that for years, I don’t think I had anything where I was like, oh, I just do that for fun, for the joy of it. That’s why I say it can’t be competitive because competitive, it’s like, well, it’s because you won. I always liked playing soccer. I would win. I mean, you lose too, but I like playing craps. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (04:15): 

So does my husband, Chris Fahey. He will play craps with you at some point. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:19): 

Awesome. But I can’t, that’s not a thing that you just, yeah, it is a pastime more than anything. And it’s fun. But yeah, I tend to tinker. I make little things. I make crap in my backyard. I made a trebuchet in my backyard one time. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (04:40): 

I remember that. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:42): 

And we were launching pumpkins into the back acreage 

  

Jennifer Whigham (04:45): 

On Was this a pandemic endeavor? 

  

Zack Glaser (04:49): 

Yeah, this was during the pandemic. I hit my car once. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (04:55): 

I didn’t know this one. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:56): 

The car was behind the treche, behind a small shed. It took a lot to hit the car. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:03): 

Well, you made a good treche. It sounds like a powerful one. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:06): 

Oh, no, it went backward. Yeah, I did it, but the Trebuchet was facing the other way. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:12): 

Okay. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:13): 

Wow. I can see why we don’t use them in war anymore. We’re in sieges. We don’t do a lot of sieges 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:18): 

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, maybe you have it on your property now, or was that only in South Dakota when you live there? 

  

Zack Glaser (05:22): 

One doesn’t travel with a trebuchet. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:24): 

I was going to ask you the traveling specifications around a trebuchet. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:28): 

Yeah, I did not want to check the legality of carting that weapon across state lines. So left it. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:36): 

I would love to have bailed you out of jail for trouble. Weapons, possessions, seized weapons. Oh, that would’ve been, I would’ve just retired from my whole life at that point. I’m like, I can’t top that. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:48): 

I think that’s, yeah, that’s exactly right. You just hang up your shoes at that point. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:52): 

Hang up my Treche. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:55): 

Your Treche shoes. You’re friends out of jail shoes. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (05:58): 

I do have a special shoes for that. They just have a lot of money in them. In the soles. Okay. Well, we learned a lot today. And so I would really like to hear what other people do for fun. So I would love if somebody just contacts me in some way. I’m not on social media, but Lawyerist is, can you just add me? I just want to be added for one time in my life. Something nice though. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:21): 

You just, at Jennifer? 

  

Jennifer Whigham (06:23): 

Yeah, whatever Jennifer that is, she’s going to enjoy getting that weird message. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:31): 

Yeah. Make sure you tag Lawyerist dot com as well. There you go. But feel free to just at any random Jennifer you want. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (06:41): 

Jennifer Lawrence, Jennifer Lopez. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:44): 

J Law J Lo. Any one of those? Well, so okay. We’re also coming up into the end of the year, and that’s one of the reasons we’re talking about mental health. We’re coming into the beginning of the year, new beginnings. And so I always like to think about what are you going to do next year that’s going to make it better? Even just a little bit. That 1%. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (07:14): 

Are you asking me that question or are you just musing by yourself? 

  

Zack Glaser (07:17): 

I’m just musing by myself. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (07:19): 

Okay. I don’t have an answer. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:20): 

Yeah. That’s what I enjoy to do. That’s what I like doing. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (07:22): 

Your fun is just to talk to yourself, and when someone tries to answer the question, you’re like, shut up. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:30): 

Everything I say is rhetorical. I’m on a podcast. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (07:39): 

I guess here’s you talking to Natasha, who I love and you will all love her after this podcast. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:46): 

Hey y’all. Zack, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyers, and today I’ve got Joyce Brafford with me from TimeSolv or ProfitSolv or CosmoLex. You guys know the drill at this point. Joyce has been with us a couple of times. Joyce, thanks for being with me. 

  

Joyce Brafford (08:00): 

It is always a pleasure, Zack. Thank you. 

  

Zack Glaser (08:03): 

So we are continuing to do a section I call Joyce responds to Reddit. And again, for those of you who don’t know what Reddit is, it is a social community where basically you get to just talk and complain and share ideas in sub Reddits that have names like law firm and paralegal and things like that. And Joyce and I have a tendency to kind of troll around there and just read people’s opinions, maybe even express our own opinions here and there. And I know that Joyce always has very good opinions in that area. So yeah, we’re going to kind of dig into that area. And with everything else, Joyce AI is big in that area. What have you been seeing with artificial intelligence in the Reddit community? Zeitgeist? 

  

Joyce Brafford (08:56): 

Yeah. One of the posts that gained a lot of traction in the past month was on the Futurology sub Reddit, on that Reddit, they are on that subreddit, the Futurology, the Futurology community posted an article from OpenAI where OpenAI boasted that they can replace the legal profession, that we just don’t need lawyers anymore. And this is, it’s in the zeitgeist pretty much. Wouldn’t it be nice, wouldn’t it be so nice if I could press a button and not have to be a lawyer? But you’ve got articles from Bloomberg and several other places saying things like 40% of what can be done in law firms can be automated today. And that does tend to lead us down this path that if 40% can be automated today, it doesn’t take that much to fully automate what a lawyer can do. And so when you are looking at what you do in a law firm, you’ve got some interpretation, you’ve got some creation of work product. 

  

(10:04): 

You’ve got not only current interpretation and creation based on templates and what, but also an eye towards the future. What can I get for my client? How can I best interpret this statute? How can I best tweak this thing that I did for a previous client to get a better result for my next client? I do think that that’s pretty important to distinguish between what AI typically can do right now and what lawyers can do. And that is to create and predict better outcomes because it’s not based on a static set of data. You aren’t learning just from what you have, you can create. And that’s pretty cool. I think that that part bodes well for our profession. 

  

Zack Glaser (10:52): 

Well, so yeah, I mean, you’re kind of hitting these two things there. One is 40% of our tasks can be potentially automated or taken over by artificial intelligence. And part of what you’re saying in there is if 40% can be taken over right now, imagine what is going to be in the not too distant future. So we kind of need to get ourselves prepared for that. But then the other is, okay, well yeah, 40% can be taken over, but what is the stuff that we do? What is the stuff that really takes the essence of the human, of what we’re capable of? The decision making, again, inside of what you’re saying is there’s a lag time sometimes in these artificial intelligence tools where maybe it’s not quite as up to date as we are. Maybe it’s not as quite as up to date as we would like them to be. And so there’s this decision making process that’s there. I’m actually kind of excited about getting rid of some of the crap jobs that we do, right? 

  

Joyce Brafford (11:59): 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I want us as lawyers and legal professionals to be able to address new and novel concepts. 

  

(12:07): 

I want us to see something from our clients and say, oh, I’ve never done that before. That’s a little bit different FactSet than I’ve managed before. And I don’t want to rely on a static data set to try to address a novel concept because that’s where you get bad results. That’s where Hall, that’s when you get hallucinations of case law of statutes. I mean, we see this in the news where things don’t actually exist that are cited in briefs and summaries and memoranda that lawyers have relied on without double checking them. So we know that these tools we have today aren’t 100% reliable. Even if they were 100% reliable, they’re still not going to be as creative as humans can be. And I think that’s pretty cool. But that does, I do think we need to go back to what Bloomberg reported, that 40% of what we do in law offices can be automated. Guys, let’s free ourselves up to be creative individuals and let’s get that 40% of nonsense off of our plate, right? Let’s be productive. Yeah, let’s do that. 

  

Zack Glaser (13:16): 

I love that. Be that law firm that is getting that 40% of the stuff out of there. Because one of the things I take out of that these results is that 40% of what law firms do currently can be automated. Okay, we’re going to adjust what we do. One of the things that these reports can’t do is say, well, how are we going to be practicing in the future? So get out there, get these things automated, and then innovate. 

  

Joyce Brafford (13:54): 

Yeah. Isn’t it amazing that we’re in a profession where we get to innovate, where we get to not only innovate for our own individual clients, but if we do a good job innovating, we can truly change our particular practice of law? And I think that we should celebrate that, and I think we should free ourselves up to sit and think and ponder and not be so overloaded with the administrative work that we don’t have time to be our best intellectual selves. So that’s where a solution like TimeSolv comes in, where you can have your automated workflows, where you can manage your projects and employ project management where you can automate billing. Come on. If you could just get billing off of your plate, imagine how much more time you’re going to have in your life daily. So there’s just so much that every good time and billing system can do. There’s so much that TimeSolv specifically can do. But yeah, don’t fight against it. Let’s not pretend that we have to hoard all the tasks in order to say, I’m a lawyer and this is my profession. I don’t think that’s accurate. I think we can offload the administrative tasks and be better lawyers and elevate the profession with the use of ai, with the use of automated tools, but just know, at least have faith with me that our profession isn’t going anywhere. If we continue to elevate and innovate, we’re not going to go anywhere. 

  

Zack Glaser (15:17): 

I think that’s a good point. That’s a good point. Well, Joyce, as always, thanks for being with me and discussing these things. We’re two lawyers who are excited about what’s to come. If people want to learn more about TimeSolv, they can always go to TimeSolv.com and they can connect with you guys and get just loads and loads of information. Joyce, thanks for being with me. 

  

Joyce Brafford (15:36): 

Yeah, thanks Zack. Appreciate it. 

  

Natasha Evans (15:39): 

Hi, my name is Natasha Evans and I am a professional development coach at Affinity Consulting Group, and I definitely am honored to be with you all today. My background is in the coaching space. I’ve done life coaching, career coaching, and now I’m doing professional development coaching, and I’ve also been a teacher instructor in the teaching psychology for nearly 20 years. So that is my background, so I’m glad to be here. 

  

Zack Glaser (16:12): 

Well, Natasha, thank you for being with me. I really appreciate it. And as listeners could probably guess, we’re talking mental health and wellbeing, and this fits into our construct at lawyers as the healthy owner. I think so this time of year, it’s no coincidence that we’re talking about this around the holidays. This time of year is not, yeah, it’s the holidays, happy times and presence and things like that, but it can be stressful, it can be difficult. It can be emotionally difficult, mentally difficult, right? 

  

Natasha Evans (16:57): 

Absolutely. You hear that song that it’s the most wonderful time of the year, and people make that assumption that this is supposed to be a happy time, but for a lot of people, it’s not. They’re going through maybe higher levels of depression, anxiety. We see a spike in that during this time of the year, and there’s reasons for that, 

  

Zack Glaser (17:25): 

And lawyers are not immune to that. And in my experience, maybe the opposite of immune to that. We’re talking, especially with our listeners, we’re talking about attorneys many times who are running firms who have people that are relying on them, families relying on them. I always said in my practice that I got paid to be the most responsible person in the room. I got paid to be the adult in the room. And so not only do we have our own stressors, we take on our client’s stressors. And so our clients are higher stress right now too. 

  

Natasha Evans (18:05): 

Yeah, I think particularly for certain professions attorneys, we also see that with medical professionals, doctors, people in the nursing professions, certain professions that have a lot of stress attached to it, meeting a lot of demands, as you were saying, you’re dealing with maybe high client loads, and then what comes with that are expectations you all are trying to meet. And then for those that are running a business, think about that on top of all of that. So absolutely. 

  

Zack Glaser (18:42): 

So in this time period, what’s normal stress and what’s, I guess, not normal, I hate calling something not normal, but what’s kind of typical stress and what’s atypical stress, I guess? 

  

Natasha Evans (18:58): 

Well, I think this time of the year, people are experiencing, there’s more events that they’re attending, more family gatherings, parties. I would say those are the normal things that people are experiencing, but sometimes even those normal events get togethers can create more. It can start to trigger people 

  

Zack Glaser (19:26): 

More. So let’s pretend wink, wink that I’m somebody that might happen to, how do I know and I deal with that type stuff? How should I approach that? 

  

Natasha Evans (19:46): 

I always say you look at what’s called your baseline. How do you normally react to situations? How do you normally feel if you are, let’s say you, you’re attending certain events or gatherings sometimes, I don’t know if you have this with your family, but sometimes your family gatherings can trigger people, so maybe you’re getting more irritable than normal. You’re noticing mood changes, mood shifts, and you’re just really, you’re starting to see differences in how you normally react. Look at your reactions to what’s going on around you. That’s a big indicator. 

  

Zack Glaser (20:32): 

Okay, well, so some high stress. I’m an attorney, I knew that coming into this job, what do I do? I hate to say it this way, but who cares? Cares that I’m high stress? Why do I deal with it? Should I deal with it? What do I do about that? 

  

Natasha Evans (20:57): 

Yeah, you should deal with it. 

  

Zack Glaser (21:03): 

I mean, that’s the answer I was looking for, right? 

  

Natasha Evans (21:05): 

That’s what I’m going to say. Yeah, I want to be upfront. Yeah, you need to deal with it because if you don’t, what’s the consequences? What’s the price you will pay if you don’t deal with it? 

  

Zack Glaser (21:19): 

Okay. So I think about a relationship with that type of thing. High stress coming into the holidays or even, I think I’ve talked a lot on this show that I suffer from depression. I hate saying suffer from depression, but I take SSRIs for depression. What if there’s no consequences? And I don’t mean that when there’s no, but my firm’s running, my family’s alive and well, my bills are paid, my associates and assistants are all happy and getting paid. But yeah, I’m stressed. I’m high stressed, I guess from one perspective, not doing great, but everything’s going fine. I made it through law school and it’s type. 

  

Natasha Evans (22:22): 

So that’s an example, what we call high functioning depression or high performing type of depression, meaning you’re getting the job done. On the surface, things look great, but internally things are not great or you’re not feeling good. The people around you think that things are running and maybe your business is and you’re functioning. But if you peel back the onion inside, it’s not working very well. And I think that this is another type of depression. It’s not part of what we call the diagnostic statistical manual, the DSM five, where mental health clinicians use. But it’s something we’re starting to recognize that we have very high performing, high achieving people that function with this kind of depression on a day-to-day basis. Once I think it’s becoming aware of it, more people starting to admit that more. I know on the surface things look great, but are you miserable? Are you experiencing misery, unhappiness? 

  

Zack Glaser (23:37): 

Yeah. I think that I get that mean. Doesn’t 100% resonate with me personally right now, but that looks familiar. That does resonate with, because as lawyers, we’re the people who are supposed to take on the stress of others, it feels like, or at least we’re told there’s a certain amount of the stress that comes with the job, and we’re supposed to kind of like, okay, get the things done. And same thing with business owners, it, we’ve been told all the time that there’s just a certain amount of stress that comes with the job. So how is that you work with many other professionals, how does that kind of resonate? How do we think about that? 

  

Natasha Evans (24:39): 

Everybody deals with stress differently. Some people can take on a high level of stress and they’re okay, and they’re still relatively healthy, but someone else, that same level of stress will completely burn them out. So everyone’s going to be different, but I think it’s important that we must need to have these kind of conversations and we need to start to change how we perceive this issue. I think that’s why I appreciate what you’re doing here today with this conversation. 

  

Zack Glaser (25:11): 

I like what you’re saying there with, you take on a certain amount of stress and you may be able to maintain it for a period of time, but it is going to burn you out. And I’m guessing that there are a lot of people who are listening to this conversation who can see themselves in that high functioning area, but had a burnout, have had those moments and are preparing for the next one, and trying to figure out what the way that they’re, they’re going to adjust the way that they’re going to deal with this next coming time. 

  

Natasha Evans (25:58): 

So part of that is recognizing the symptoms. For example, the symptoms of burnout. A lot of it is, so you’re in a state of exhaustion. That’s a big one for a lot. So a lot of high achieving, high performing people, they’re taking on so much stress, meeting so many expectations, demands, but it’s wiping them out. But you can tell. So it’s about developing that awareness. It’s starting to impact your health to me, Zack, to be honest with you, I think the number one thing that tells us that we’re burning out or that level of stress and depression is taking a toll is it’s impacting your health. Health is wealth. If we don’t have our health, we can’t do anything. 

  

Zack Glaser (26:54): 

Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think that resonates with, because there are a lot of attorneys out there and going through law school and being around a lot of attorneys, and we do have this idea of like, well, okay, well, yes, but I’m stronger than that. And what it sounds like or what’s kind of like what I’m getting out of this is that I don’t care who you are, there’s a breaking point. There’s only a certain amount of stress that you can take on at a healthy level. And if you’re taking it on at a higher level than as healthy, then you’re going to break at some point. It doesn’t matter who you are. And that breaking can be different. That breaking can look like a, you might walk into the woods and come back in six months, or you could just be chronically sick, or you could be have chronic insomnia, which would then potentially lead to being chronically sick or be angry all the time. I know when I don’t get enough sleep, I’m angry all the time. 

  

Natasha Evans (28:12): 

Yeah, absolutely. 

  

Zack Glaser (28:14): 

What’s the saying? Where if you go throughout your day and you meet one asshole, you met an asshole, and you go throughout the day and you meet, and everybody who meets an asshole, you’re the asshole. That’s me when I’m tired. 

  

Natasha Evans (28:28): 

That’s a side. Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (28:31): 

And yeah, I think not getting enough sleep is generally a symptom, a symptom of being high stress. But that also comes from, so for me personally, if I’m high stress, I’ll also skip exercising. I’ll eat terribly. I mean terribly. You should see my Instagram, it’s got me entire pizzas, and I’m not that big, but I’ll eat terribly. And so eating poorly, not exercising, snapping at loved ones. What are some other things that people might kind of be on the lookout for? Because what I’m afraid of here is that the people that are listening to this are so used to having this stress that it’s normalized, and so they don’t know what the symptoms are because that’s almost a part of their being at this point. Oh, I just don’t sleep well, I guess I just don’t ever sleep. 

  

Natasha Evans (29:41): 

That’s why we have to keep reiterating that is not healthy. It’s not healthy. But I hear what you’re saying. I think some people have been in it, it’s like a habit, but they’ve been in it. It’s a life. So what all this is part of your lifestyle. It’s like a lifestyle for some people. And they’ve been so deeply embedded in it that they can’t even see it. They can’t see that this is a problem for them. I mean, intellectually they know it’s a problem, but they just don’t get it. They don’t see it as such. But I would say the key symptoms is there’s health issues showing up. It could be relationship problems, like you said, you’re snapping at people. I would even say this too, is it taking away from the things that you enjoy? What about the things you enjoy in life, your passions? Like you say, your fitness, you’re a fit guy. I could see that. 

  

Zack Glaser (30:48): 

Well, so I love that you say that because I took some time, and like I’ve said, I have my issues with mental fitness, with mental health, and I’ve had my struggles, I’ve had my paths. But I remember probably a decade ago when I kind of started my path towards legal technology is looking around and thinking, I don’t know what I enjoy doing. I didn’t have a hobby or a thing that was enjoyable for its own sake. And that was interesting to me, was just not having this just enjoyment, the sense of enjoyment, the sense of just play in a sense. 

  

Natasha Evans (31:40): 

Yeah, absolutely. 

  

Zack Glaser (31:42): 

But that I had the lack of, that had been there for so long, that was super normalized to not have a thing, not wake up on a Saturday and think, oh, I’m going to go right now. I do. I want to say randomly, I randomly do blacksmithing at the metal museum here in Memphis. And it’s just something I really enjoy. I do it for its own sake, but that’s not the type of thing that I would’ve had 10 years ago as a hobby, as a thing to goof off with. 

  

Natasha Evans (32:20): 

Yeah. I think what I appreciate about what you’re saying and what I’m hearing is that this has been normalized in the attorney profession so much and being burned out and tired. It’s thick. 

  

Zack Glaser (32:38): 

A badge of honor almost. 

  

Natasha Evans (32:40): 

Sometimes like a medical doctor too. They’re trained to work 48 hours straight, and this is supposed to be a badge of honor, and you’re showing strength, and this is just part of your profession. But we’re seeing is it killing people? Is it destroying people’s health? Is it destroying relationships? Is it causing a mental, a real mental health clinical condition? So there’s impacts from that, but I think it’s important that we need to stop normalizing this or interrupting. We need to interrupt the pattern of behavior or this thinking, this conditioning. There’s a conditioning and it goes way back. It’s in our law schools or maybe for some of us, our parents taught us this the way we grew up, our work ethics. Some of us grew up with these really strong work ethics and we feel like we had to work till we dropped. But I think we have to look at what is the price you’re paying and how is it showing up in your life in general? And the more that we can be open about those things and talk about it and interrupting some of these patterns and realize we had talked about this at one point, what’s healthy? What is what we call adaptive and coping versus what’s maladaptive or unhealthy? 

  

Zack Glaser (34:24): 

Yeah. I think that’s difficult sometimes for someone to figure out. So along those lines, let’s kind of take this to some practical ideas and steps here, because at this point I’ve convinced everybody out there in podcast land that they’re with us here. They want to take some steps to be mentally more fit. What can we do? What can somebody say, okay, yeah, I can recognize some of those patterns. What do I need to do about it? 

  

Natasha Evans (35:03): 

Well, so there’s a couple of things. One, I would always highly recommend to work with, maybe be a professional if you can, or you work with a coach that has this training in this area, it’s better to have someone working with you than to try to do it all by yourself. So I would try to invest in that if you can. But in terms of self-care, look at some of your lifestyle habits. Look at things that you do on a day-to-day basis. Something about just take a small step. Is there something that you could improve? And it doesn’t have to be massive. It doesn’t have to be huge, but is there one area of your life even? You’re so busy, you have so much on your plate, but is there one small thing that you could do that could make an impact? It could start you on that journey towards mental wellness for yourself. 

  

Zack Glaser (36:04): 

I like that because I know in my journey, it took a lot of little steps to get to a big step. It took a lot of little bitty positive decisions to get to a place. And what I mean by a big step is it took me a lot of small decisions in order to get to a place where I spoke to a counselor and now I speak to a counselor every other week or every three weeks or something like that, consistently as needed really as well. And so I think it might be the next logical step for some people to go, oh yeah, I could totally speak with somebody. But I think many people just maybe eating a little bit better every Thursday is going to clear your head a little bit more. One of the things that I notice is definitely garbage in, garbage out. But on the other side of that, when I am eating well, my brain is functioning better. 

  

Natasha Evans (37:23): 

Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (37:25): 

And so that’s good. Or when I’m running consistently, or walking, skipping, biking, whatever, when I’m moving around, I’m usually doing better. I know that. 

  

Natasha Evans (37:43): 

I would say, and I think that’s great. I would take a holistic approach you’re doing, it might be something like that just to kind of lift the fog, go out in nature, take a walk. You don’t have to go get a Peloton bike and do all this exercise, but just moving the body, getting a breath of fresh air, incorporating that in your schedule. What’s healthy for you? Having a certain, your nutrition, what is good nutrition, mindful nutrition look like for you? It’s all kinds of things you can do in terms of self-care. But I would say to your audience, it’s so important. Even though you’re overwhelmed, there’s a lot on your plates. It’s important to prioritize that, put that on your calendars, make that an important thing. It could be a small thing. It doesn’t have to be massive, but a small thing can really ignite change. 

  

Zack Glaser (38:46): 

Put it on your calendar. 

  

Natasha Evans (38:48): 

Put it on your calendar. 

  

Zack Glaser (38:49): 

I like that because kind of going back to earlier where we’re saying there’s only a certain amount of stress that people can take and people, it is different for everybody, but there’s only a certain amount of stress, and then you’re going to break. And unfortunately, breaking isn’t generally scheduled. That just happens. And if you can schedule a break, if you can schedule some mental fitness that you can schedule that. It could be a Saturday, it could be a Sunday, it could be a Wednesday afternoon. But when you get beat up by stress, when stress knocks you out, you don’t know when that’s going to be. 

  

Natasha Evans (39:42): 

Exactly. It’s like a boxer. You’re knocked out and you don’t realize what hits you. 

  

Zack Glaser (39:51): 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that has been my experience is that it just, and it may not always, I think that’s one of the things that I want to get out of this is that this doesn’t manifest. It does. This doesn’t always manifest. They make it look in the depression commercials on tv. We don’t literally have this shadow ghost stalking us into the dark bedroom. It can be more of a creep and 

  

Natasha Evans (40:28): 

Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (40:30): 

Yeah. And it can also be something that’s not as initially severe as you think. I hate, I dislike these terms. A lot of times when we talk about mental fitness as we talk about mental disorders or dysfunctions or something is not normal. And I hate that. I really do, because I have things that I have to work on for my mental health. But I am, I’m normal. I’m a human. And on the other side of that is what is normal. None of us are really normal. So I hate looking at it from an abnormal standpoint. And whenever we can kind of say, Hey, this is a regular thing. This is something that we all deal with. We all deal with stress. We all have times that we can’t sleep at night necessarily. We all, and getting back to the beginning of our conversation this time of year, this time of year tends to exacerbate that 

  

Natasha Evans (41:47): 

This time of the year, like I said, I call it the amplify season. It’s where if you have, let’s say you suffer from depression or whatever, but you function with it. But this time of year might amplify it more because of the things we talked about. There’s more stressors that we’re dealing with, more events, more things to do. And the other thing, for some people this time of the year, they’re dealing with personal losses, loss of loved ones, pets. There’s different triggers. So people get triggered more this time of the year as well. 

  

Zack Glaser (42:27): 

Oh yeah. I mean, I know I do. Yeah, I know I do. Absolutely. You go into Thanksgiving and then the rest of the holidays and something, somebody or some tradition is not there anymore. Yeah. Let’s take that depressing thought and we’ll wrap up now. No, let’s go the other way on this. And what this has made me kind of think is of this 1% rule, 

  

(42:59): 

And this has to do with my journey through all of this as well, is talking about those little decisions that I had to make in order to make bigger decisions. And I’d be curious what 1% things, what small decisions people out there listening to the podcast could make? Is it, do a 30 minute walk on Tuesday, get a walking group, get somebody in the square with you? I know we probably have a lot of people that are practicing near other attorneys and Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that I want to get out of this is that other people are there too. Exactly. Other people feel this way. So could you grab somebody that’s near you and say, Hey, let’s go for a walk. Let’s take the stairs today. Let’s just be a little bit, and I’m not even talking about an accountability buddy, I’m just saying just a little 1% thing. Go 

  

Natasha Evans (43:58): 

Outside. Let’s just 

  

Zack Glaser (43:59): 

Get outside 

  

Natasha Evans (43:59): 

Breath of fresh air. Let’s just chat. 

  

Zack Glaser (44:04): 

Play a video game. Honestly, whatever it is, I’d be curious what people’s 1% could be. And I’d also be curious about people thinking about what’s a thing that they do that’s just enjoyable? What do they do for fun? What is something that you do for fun? And this is how I had to define it previously. That’s not competitive. It is fun for its own sake. It is not because you’re winning at something. Because I think it’s easy to say, oh, well, I have a lot of fun doing blank. And it’s because you win. Well, we have a lot of fun at trials that I win. Great. But that’s work. 

  

Natasha Evans (44:50): 

As you’re talking about that, it’s making me think, what’s something that makes you feel almost like a kid again? You have that childlike fun freedom. It makes you feel that way. And I just think we have lost that as that’s part of, I think our mental wellness too, is just feeling like a feeling fun. Having fun. And I’m not talking about going out partying and drinking fun. I’m talking about 

  

Zack Glaser (45:24): 

This. Go to the batting cage. So if you’re watching this on YouTube or Spotify, I have a lot of Legos behind me. That’s one of the things I do for fun. That’s fun. I build Legos. I do crossword puzzles for fun. I’m never going to win a crossword puzzle competition ever. But I do them just for fun. But kind of going back to that 10, 15 years ago, I didn’t know that. 

  

(45:55): 

I didn’t know any of that. I didn’t know what was something that I did for fun. And the way that relates to this, to me is that typically those things for me that are just kind of pure fun are stress relievers. 

  

Natasha Evans (46:10): 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I love dance. I did a lot of dancing as a kid and I took some dance classes, but I did dance. And dance makes me feel free and healthy, and it helps with mental health and it’s a passion. And I said, this is something I need to get back into so I can feel whole, I can feel good. I can feel this is me being healthy in so many ways and I’m getting my fitness in. So I think choosing things that kind of allow you to express yourself. How are you expressing yourself in a freeing, creative way? I think that’s missing for a lot of us too. 

  

Zack Glaser (46:57): 

Yeah, I like that a lot. Well, yeah, let’s end with that. For the listeners out there, I’d like you to think about what’s a thing that you do that you can do that is just surely for fun? And then share it with us if you feel comfortable with it. I told you I build Legos. I generally tinker with things for fun, and I’ve been like that my entire life and realize it until I realized it again later in life. But yeah, so I’d love to know what people like to do for fun and what’s that kind of 1% thing that they think they can do? 

  

Natasha Evans (47:38): 

1% 

  

Zack Glaser (47:38): 

To get mentally fit. 

  

Natasha Evans (47:43): 

Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (47:43): 

We’re not talking about you have a detriment or a problem or something. You might or you might not, but we’re talking about mental fitness, just being more fit than yesterday. 

  

Natasha Evans (47:54): 

Your wellness. Your wellbeing. 

  

Zack Glaser (47:57): 

Yeah. Well, Natasha, thanks for being with me. I really appreciate this conversation. And yeah, I always like talking to you about this stuff. This makes me more mentally fit. 

  

Natasha Evans (48:11): 

Okay. Well thank you Zack, for having me. And to everybody. Happy holidays and have some fun. 

  

Zack Glaser (48:18): 

Alright, 

  

Natasha Evans (48:18): 

Enjoy yourself. 

  

Zack Glaser (48:19): 

Love it. Love it. Alright. Alright. Thanks Natasha. See you. 

  

Natasha Evans (48:23): 

Thank you. 

 

 

 

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