#532: 5 Hidden Values That Will Transform Your Law Practice, with John Blakey

Episode Notes

Transcript

Jennifer Whigham (00:12): 

Hi, I’m Jennifer Whigham. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:13): 

And I’m Zack Glaser. And this is episode 5 32 of the Lawyers Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Stephanie talks with John Blakey about his leadership book, Force for Good, how to Thrive as a Purpose-Driven Leader. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:29): 

Today’s podcast is brought to you by iManage, and you’ll hear Zack’s conversation with him in just a little bit. But first, it is the week of Thanksgiving. And Zack, I am grateful for you. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:41): 

Thank you. I too. You’re welcome. I am grateful for me. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:46): 

Oh, no. Wow. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:48): 

Is that not where we were going? 

  

Jennifer Whigham (00:49): 

No. We can just talk about what you and why we’re grateful for you. I mean, I am grateful for you. I think you should be grateful for yourself. Thank you. But I think you were telling me right before we were recording, that you were grateful for some other things. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:06): 

Yes. In reality, I’m grateful to be working at a company that allows me to, I think big, do things differently. I’m also grateful to be working at a company that kind of puts its money where its mouth is that has values, that it sticks to core values, that it runs from that, that I not only get to decide whether I agree with them, but I also get to help in the process of determining what those core values are as one of the people at this company. So I am grateful to be working at a place that I don’t know has values and values me and lets me be myself. Yeah, I guess, 

  

Jennifer Whigham (01:54): 

Yeah, I think that’s the big one is there may be things that happen that I disagree with, but my voice is heard, but I can just be me. And that’s a long time coming to be my weird self that work and have it actually be a positive, sometimes leading my team or doing a podcast intro and not have to squelch it down because I’m afraid that it doesn’t fit in with a certain type of culture. We value weird here, and I really appreciate that. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:28): 

We do well and we value broad thinking. We value not necessarily taking 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:35): 

Things think broad. Thinking about broad’s. Okay. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:37): 

Sorry, 

  

Jennifer Whigham (02:38): 

Go ahead. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:39): 

I don’t know. We can’t say this. I’m going to make no comment on that one. We value thinking about things differently and allowing ourselves to think about things differently, but then also determining whether or not that’s correct or we value measuring things and going out and trying stuff, experimenting. But part of experimenting is measuring, not just going and doing things willy nilly. This is not interpretive dance that we’re doing over here. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:16): 

It is chemistry. You’re, 

  

Zack Glaser (03:18): 

I am not doing interpretive dance on the podcast, Jennifer. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:22): 

Oh, that’s true. We do have our weekly afternoon interpretive dance meetings that we 

  

Zack Glaser (03:28): 

Hold. A hundred Percent. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:29): 

Can you imagine? Actually, I can’t imagine. That’s the thing. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:32): 

I 100% can’t imagine. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (03:34): 

In fact, I feel like some years ago we must have had some dance. It doesn’t matter. But I’m grateful for my memory of all the interpretive dances I’ve done and this company and you and our community and our dedication to taking care of our little community, which I think is where you start and can have the most impact, is just taking care of each other. So this Thanksgiving, take care of each other, 

  

Zack Glaser (04:03): 

Take care of each other. Well, and if it doesn’t just go unsaid. Jennifer, I am grateful for you and I’m grateful to be working with you. 

  

Jennifer Whigham (04:10): 

Thank you. I am not going to say what you said back to me. I’m just going to accept the compliment. Thanks. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:15): 

No, that’s perfect. That’s perfect because now here is our conversation with our sponsored guests, and then we’ll head into Stephanie’s conversation with Dr. Blakey. 

  

(04:26): 

Hey y’all, it’s Zack, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyerist. And today I’ve got Tonya Wingfield from iManage with me. Now iManage is a knowledge management solution for the legal field, and Tonya is one of their change management specialists. Tonya, thanks for being with me. 

  

Tonya Wingfield (04:42): 

Thank you for having me. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:43): 

Okay, so Tonya, you’re a change management specialist for a knowledge management company, big knowledge management company. This is I management. I imagine you’ve seen a lot. I imagine you’ve seen a lot of changes. Yes. What are some of the more common, I guess, issues or reservations or hiccups that somebody might come across when they’re trying to change or get their documents and knowledge in order in their firm? 

  

Tonya Wingfield (05:15): 

I think Zack, one of the big things that I’ve seen our customers experience, and that is the apprehension of what does this mean for me? How is it going to affect my day? How is it going to affect that one way I do something and it’s so efficient. So you have all that fear and then you have, we still have the crowd of employees that, and I hate to say that because near that age, but the ones that will I be able to learn at my age, this is so different. So we have this spectrum of all of this different change the organization, and from a change management perspective, it is important that we don’t take anyone for granted. We have to make sure we assess everything, all the different opportunities to be able to find the change and address it, and then calm the nerves of people. So that’s one of the big things, making sure that we remove those fear factors that are out there. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:25): 

Okay, how do we go about doing that? If I’m somebody saying, how is this going to affect my day? How do we go about doing that if I’m the person helping lead the change? 

  

Tonya Wingfield (06:37): 

Well, one of the most important things, and this is sometimes that make it left out in this process, because the one thing about it, we have this wonderful project management plan that we go by. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:51): 

Oh yeah, 

  

Tonya Wingfield (06:51): 

Hopefully. But often, sometimes what is left out are your people, like your change management folks, like me and your business analysis folks, and we’re the ones going out there getting the data. We need to make sure that decisions are data driven and that we have the correct data, not assumptions. So one of the first things that’s important that I like to see from a change management perspective is working with the business analyst or whoever’s doing that scoping for how that desktop is going to be built. And we’re interviewing the resistors. We can’t say, oh, I don’t want to talk to them. There’s just going to be a headache. They don’t want to talk to Susie, she’s a naysayer. No, we need talk to SU 

  

Zack Glaser (07:42): 

Can say, it’s just not going to help. Yeah, 

  

Tonya Wingfield (07:44): 

Exactly. Exactly. Her input is critical. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:48): 

So 

  

Tonya Wingfield (07:48): 

We need to go out and find every type of stakeholder that could contribute to the success or the failure of the project and get their perspective of what they think about the change, what are their expectations as far as what will change. And of course in the legal field, if you tell an attorney, look, I’m going to take you down from five clicks to two now, you know, got a winner there. So we want to make sure that we look at those things. Nothing is minute, nothing. We cannot look at anything as users just being complacent or just being naysayers or nags. We have to address and take their feedback serious 

  

Zack Glaser (08:38): 

First. So we have to have to figure out what their fears are and actually address that, 

  

Tonya Wingfield (08:44): 

Their fears, their workflows, and actually their expectations. What do they expect to get out of this new system? Because they’re our customer and we have to remember that they’re the customer. 

  

Zack Glaser (08:56): 

Right. Well, if people want to learn more about knowledge management, change management, and what they can do with iManage, they can go to imanage.com and I imagine they can get a demo with you guys and get shown around. 

  

Tonya Wingfield (09:13): 

Definitely. We have what we call a success hub that we are putting in place. Alright. And so these success hubs actually give, we have videos on best practices on how to carry out certain tasks when you’re in that project management stage. 

  

Zack Glaser (09:30): 

So getting people information to get the information to the people to get this done. 

  

Tonya Wingfield (09:37): 

Because we have to remember, we are data-driven, and so you got to get the information. Decisions that are not data-driven are decisions that are set up to fail. 

  

Zack Glaser (09:49): 

I like that. I like that. And honestly, I’m going to end on that. I love that. So that is, again, people want to learn more about iManage. They can go to imanage.com and they can book a demo. Tonya, I really appreciate you being with me today. Thank you. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (10:05): 

Yeah. Hi everyone. My name’s Dr. John Blakey. I’m the author of this book Force for Good that has published in August of 2024. And yeah, I’ve done other things that I could bore you with, but I think maybe that’s enough for us to kick off our engagement today. 

  

Stephanie Everett (10:24): 

Yeah, you’re being modest because you’ve done a lot of things. You’ve had a pretty amazing career. So thank you for being with me today. Maybe to kick us off, I’ve checked out the book Force for Good, how to thrive as a purpose-driven leader. And it might be just interesting for you to tell us a little bit about how you started to come to think of yourself as a purpose-driven leader and what that transition was like. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (10:51): 

Yeah, so in my career I’ve definitely been on a journey as most leaders are from a profit-driven focus to a purpose-driven focus. I was at the age of 38, I was the international managing director of a FSE 100 global software company, which was very profit focused and I didn’t question that. It was just the way it was and I got on with it and I did my best and I got some things right and I got some things wrong. But I think at that time I started to look around me in that corporate world and I started to question some of the values of the world in which I was operating. And a couple of years later I left found my own business as an executive coach and I started to work with other leaders who were also questioning things, exploring things, and experimenting with focusing on purpose rather than profit. 

  

(11:45): 

And that isn’t to say that profit isn’t still an important fuel, it’s just saying, can we go further, can go beyond profit to lift our sights, to engage in at the level of purpose and making an impact in the world that goes beyond wealth creation but still includes that activity. So that’s a little bit where I sparked some of those ideas. I was very inspired by a lot of the clients that I work with who were doing very brave things in the world of purpose, whether that’s in private sector or the public sector or the third sector. I published a book in 2016 called The Trusted Executive, and that was all about the power of trust, which is part of building that community of purpose. So that continued to engage me with that community and force for Good is the next iteration of that journey, particularly inspired by a lot of the experiences of Covid and the Pandemic and what I went through as a leader and also what my clients went through. So I’m hoping it’s a very practical book that speaks to the issues of our time. 

  

Stephanie Everett (12:59): 

It resonates that a lot of leaders kind of do go through this journey where you wake up one day and you’re like, what am I doing? I’m just, am I all about making money, making money? Is there something bigger I should be doing with my business within my community? And so I think you sort of lead us on some questions that maybe people could be asking along the way. Maybe we don’t have to wait until we get older and have this epiphany. We could start the process earlier. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (13:25): 

And there are many reasons for that. I think in the world now, we’ve got big issues globally. Business is an agent of innovation, an agent of change. If we put that talent to work on some of these big issues, then I think we could have a really significant impact. I think there is an imperative now around some of the challenges we face that demands that business leaders step up into this world of purpose, but also an individual level. You mentioned it really in Covid, in the pandemic, I worked with a lot of very confident, successful leaders, CEOs who were waking up in the morning thinking, is it worth it? They’d reached a point of really questioning that purpose. And I think the pandemic did give us all a bit of a wake up call around some of those big questions. And we’re still working through that. I think in terms of the aftermath, I often talk about the transition from a life of success to a life of significance. And I think 

  

(14:24): 

Historically we’ve seen as you said, that it’s almost like you have to get success first and then you ask that question, am I now ready to live a life of significance? But I think the younger generations need to be challenging themselves to live a life of success and significance, to make it an inclusive mindset that says you don’t have to add either success or significance. You can set your store out such that you are looking to generate both in your life. And I think that’s the challenge, particularly for those younger generations, to show that that’s possible and to prove that that’s the way that business can show up in the world. 

  

Stephanie Everett (15:00): 

Absolutely. I underlined that in my book when I read it, A Life of Significance. I love that. In the book, you also give us this framework, I guess you would call it, of a purpose driven leadership that’s up in out, I don’t know, does it start or in out? It’s a triangle, so I don’t know if there’s a good starting place, but I would love for you to tell us more about how that works. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (15:26): 

Yeah, well, it’s a triangle as you say. So you can start at any point. I typically start at the up because I think the up, yeah, the up probably comes first. So I go up in out on the triangle. Yeah. The reason for this model is really the subtitle of the book is How to Thrive as a Purpose-Driven Leader. My audience is really those people and leaders who’ve already said, I do want to stand for purpose. I do want to live this life of significance as well as a life of success. How do I do it well? How do I do it when I’m thriving? Because there are a lot of purpose-driven leaders who feel their purpose as a burden and not as a joy. And so I think we want to be thriving as purpose-driven leaders rather than martyring ourselves against this wonderful purpose. 

  

(16:15): 

So that’s why I have this model in the book Up in and Out and the up is very much as the name implies, it’s about the purpose. Whatever you want to call your purpose, your calling, your vocation, what is it that has that presence for you? That means that you put that first and that gives you that guiding light, that true north. So do you know what that purpose is? How do you stay connected with it? How do you make sure it still feels like a joy rather than a burden? So the up in is really about how we take care of ourselves on the journey. There are purpose-driven leaders who self-sacrifice and run out of energy halfway through the race. And that doesn’t really help us. We want those leaders to finish the race. So how do we look after our motivation, our resilience, our wellbeing? 

  

(17:08): 

And then the out is how do we bring people with us on this purpose-driven journey. Not everybody’s going to be as passionate about your purpose as you are on day one. So how do you engage people? How do you build that followership in particular in a post pandemic world where a lot of talent is asking themselves big questions is wondering, where do I give this extra discretionary effort? Do I give it to you or do I give it to somebody else or something else in my life? So I think we have to work hard at building that followership that allows us to turbocharge the progress towards that purpose. That’s how the up in and out works, and it’s just a simple framework that hopefully is memorable and allows people to create a language to talk about these challenges. 

  

Stephanie Everett (18:01): 

The up. I think that’s where you talk about, you really have to understand your, why are you doing this? Why do you get out of bed every day? You said that one of the people you worked with, and when they went through this exercise, they had such clarity about their life that they didn’t have before. And I think we talk a lot about it here around business vision, for example. We’re always saying, you really do need this people. It’s not just a catch word that we use. And so I also loved this idea that as individuals, we need to be really clear on our why. And I wonder how would you talk to the skeptics who are just like, oh, here’s Stephanie and John again going on with these vision words that they keep droning on about. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (18:49): 

Yes, yes. There are a lot of skeptics. There are always a lot of skeptics. And that’s part of one of the things we’re going to have to get used to in this purpose-driven life, that they’re going to be people who want to stand against it, who question it or are trying to bring you into their world. And I think it means we need a lot of courage as purpose-driven leaders. And I think that purpose is what gives you that courage because when you are clear about what you’re standing for, it’s much easier to stand for it. If you are very vague about it or you haven’t quite nailed it down, it’s harder to hear that voice of purpose clearly in your head. And we need to hear it clearly in those times where we get the setbacks, where we get the cynics, where we get the skeptics because they’re going to come thick and fast. 

  

(19:43): 

If you plant your flag in this place, then you are going to get a lot of pushback. And so that op is really important. And one of the gateways to discovering that clarity, and you mention the story from the book, is being very in touch with your personal values. One of the most powerful coaching exercises I work with is a values elicitation exercise where I help leaders uncover and be precise about the five to seven personal values that really light up their life. And once those values are clear, that’s the gateway to articulate in a purpose that honors those values. And yeah, I’ve seen the power of that exercise in my own life. I’ve seen it in the life of other leaders that I’ve worked with. And if I didn’t have that clarity on my own values, it would be very easy to get blown off course from this purpose-driven approach. So yeah, that’s one thing I would really recommend leaders who are working in this field is have you got that clarity on the five to seven personal values that really light up your life? 

  

Stephanie Everett (20:55): 

And I think there’s a difference. I think for a lot of us listening, they’re probably like, well, I mean I kind of know I have an idea. I have a sense. And what you’re saying is, yes, but that’s not enough. You actually need to go through the exercise and you need to have them named, you need to be able to bounce ’em off and be like, this is it. And there’s a difference between a wishy-washy sense of an idea versus this is it. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (21:23): 

Yeah. Because once you’ve got clarity, you can use those values as very specific tools. So one of the exercises I talked about in the book is a weekly exercise that I carried out for over 10 years, and many of my clients use it is that on a Sunday evening, I will sit down and I’ll ask myself the question, I’ll write it down, how am I going to honor my values this week? And then I have the list of values. I see courage, I see sharing, I see flare, I see challenge, and I look at my diary and I map my values to the activities in my diary. And then I can get very intentional over time about filling my diary with value driven activities that are honoring these five to seven values. I can’t do that exercise if I dunno what the five to seven values are. So if you don’t have that input, you can’t use those values to then work these exercises, particularly in that area, the op of the model. 

  

Stephanie Everett (22:21): 

Yeah, makes sense. And then I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how we need to take care of ourselves as leaders. I feel like this is something so many of us are struggling with right now. As you said, the busyness of life and business and all the things and all the people are trying to do all the things for all the people, and I think a lot of people are still really struggling. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (22:46): 

Yeah, that’s my experience. I think there’s a big, yeah, it’s not just the pandemic, is it? We’ve had lots of shocks in our own ways, both globally and I’m sure personally as well. So now in of the model, I learned a great deal on this aspect from the work I’ve done with elite sports coaches and athletes. I find that in the world of sport, the emphasis on motivation and resilience is so much more important than in the world of organizational life. So a lot of my work, as I say, I credit to what I’ve seen put into action in that world. And one of the exercises that I talk about in the book, which I’ve seen used by Olympic athletes, a very simple exercise, but I worked with an Olympic team who every quarter as they went through this four year cycle to build up to the Olympics, used to conduct a radiators and drains exercise as they called it, for themselves individually, but also for the team quite simply, they would put up two columns, title one radiators, and one drains, and they would list on the radiators, all the people, events, activities, places, roles that lifted up their energy and motivation. 

  

(24:10): 

And on the drains column, they would put all the people, places, activities, roles that drain their energy. And then once they got those lists very clear, they would make decisions about how to maximize the radiators and minimize the drains. Now again, it’s not rocket science, it takes you like 10, 15 minutes to do this, but it’s amazing how bringing that to the front of your mind, making conscious choices about these things and then committing and holding accountability around that can be that difference between the 10% extra motivation that keeps you above water versus the 10% drain that pulls you under. And these are the differences in leadership life. The differences are very fine between thriving and surviving. And so any exercise like that, as a coach, I just gather all of that up. I put it in a little kit bag, and in this book, I’m trying to share this, and not every exercise works for everyone, but I’m hoping that of the 19 exercises I’ve got in the book, if people pull out three or four, then that can be the differences say between thriving and surviving. 

  

Stephanie Everett (25:19): 

Yeah, no, I loved that. I love that you gave us in the book so many tangible exercises that we could do of these aren’t just concepts, but here’s how you apply them. And like you said, maybe you don’t do because you even break it down. You can do this daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly. And that’s super helpful because sometimes, honestly, it’s nice to hear you say you don’t have to do all of them. I think sometimes we overwhelm ourselves. I got asked the other day, what’s your morning routine? And I was like, honestly, it’s not great. I get up and I get dressed and I eat coffee. I know there’s these entrepreneurs out there exercising, meditating, journaling, doing their affirmations. They have this whole, there’s all these books now on your morning routine. And I’m like, I’m doing good to just get up. And sometimes I have to give myself grace to be like, it’s okay if I don’t do all these things. I can do these things and not these other things 

  

Dr. John Blakey (26:16): 

And concentrate on your own, running your own race. And yeah, there’s all this out there. You are listening to things. You’re reading things, but it’s pulling out the things. Again, your values can help with that. If you’re clear about that, it gives you that discernment that says, this isn’t for me, it’s for somebody else, but this one is for me, and that’s something I could work with and use and apply. So we’ve all, I think learning how to be much more, yeah, maybe discerning is the word because we’re bombarded with so much good stuff and a lot of bad stuff as well. But even the good stuff can be overwhelming. So how do we exercise discernment and use the limited energy that we’ve got in the best possible way 

  

Stephanie Everett (27:02): 

When people make a shift and say, okay, I’m going to be this purpose driven leader. I want my company to drive towards a purpose. And like you said, profit may be the vehicle. It’s still a piece of it, but it might be our profit that allows us to live out this purpose. And for a lot of our listeners, they’re lawyers, and I always say the lawyers are the helpers. They’re out there changing the laws, helping people make sense of things, solve problems. It feels very, to me, it feels like it would be an easy shift for them, I think, to grasp onto this idea. But I just wonder if you have any thoughts or advice for people who are still trying to get a sense of where they would take this? 

  

Dr. John Blakey (27:52): 

Well, I’ve worked with a number of lawyers and CEOs of legal firms, and I find it interesting in the legal sector because on the one hand, you’ve got a lot of values driven people. I mean, justice is a value that drives a lot of the purpose of lawyers, at least on day one. That’s why they study so hard. That’s why they choose to go in this direction. So at heart, there is a very strong set of values, I think, driving a lot of people who are attracted to that profession. But on the other hand, I think it is a profession that has become incredibly institutionalized and professional. And I mean, I use that word guardedly in a way that professional is a good thing, but if you’re not careful and you over professionalize, over institutionalize, you squeeze the spirit and the joy out of the original purpose. 

  

(28:51): 

And there’s always good reasons for the processes, the procedures. We have to recognize the value of these things. But I think it’s keeping them as the servants of the firm rather than the masters of the firm. And that’s hard. I think it’s such a mature, well drilled professional industry, and a lot of those things are great, but maybe some of that joy and that creativity and that values driven flare, that maybe is a bit more room for that to flourish such that again, talent is attracted, talent is motivated and gives that extra 10, 20% to the cause. 

  

Stephanie Everett (29:36): 

Yeah. One of our values here is stay curious and we’re trying to learn new things and stay curious about the world. And I’m curious, what are you working on next? What are you learning or improving right now that we might glean from? 

  

Dr. John Blakey (29:54): 

Yeah. Well, I got Force for Good out two months ago now, three months. So I’m on the road at the moment, I’m doing this, I’m about to get on a train because tomorrow I’m doing a leadership workshop on this work with a charity group of leaders. So at the moment, I’m in the execute, execute, execute phase. I’m trying to avoid being too curious about too many new things. That’s good too, because I weren’t very curious, and that’s why I wrote this book because I got curious. I got curious about what was going on in the world, particularly after the pandemic. So I’ve had that sort of phase. I’ve given birth to something now called Force for Good. I want to give it its best chance in the world. So I’m getting behind it, and I’m going to be very focused on getting behind it for a period of time. 

  

(30:49): 

And the way it works with me is I will give this everything, and there will be a day when I wake up and I go, oh, maybe it’s time for something new, and then I’ll get curious. But typically if you look, I’ve published three books and there was a second edition of Second Book, and they’ve all been four years apart. I didn’t plan it that way, but it seems like there’s a bit of a cycle that goes on for me, which is four years. You go around a bit of a loop of be curious, be creative, generate something, and then make sure it’ss going to have an impact. As much as you can get behind it and focus on it. Don’t sort of get distracted too quick onto the next shiny new thing. So that’s a little bit where I’m in the cycle. Han, 

  

Stephanie Everett (31:45): 

I think that’s amazing advice because I think sometimes, especially my small firm owners, we talk about chasing the shiny things or the squirrels. We get excited, and it’s good to remember sometimes you’re just in execution mode. You don’t need a new big idea. Maybe the takeaway is you’re staying curious about how this book now sits with people in the world and how they’re going to use it and implement it. So thank you. Thank you for writing it, for centering, for maybe giving us a different perspective of how we can use our businesses and our leadership and the work we’re doing in a different way to have a life of significance, not just success, to have both. We’ll make sure to put the notes, the blah, that was not the right way to say that. We’ll make sure to put the book and a link to the book in the show. Any place else you’d like for people to go to learn more about your work and what you’re doing? 

  

Dr. John Blakey (32:45): 

Sure. Yeah. The website is www.johnblakey.co.uk. So yeah, lots of resources that I’m gathering together there. So I think that’s the best place to go. Keep it simple. And the book is out there, and I’m really grateful for this opportunity to reach the people for whom it was written, and it’s part of the joy. My purpose is to think that out in the US we can get this message out there. I might not ever meet a lot of the people, but if somebody one day sends me an email and says, Hey, I was listening to this podcast and you mentioned that exercise about radiators and drains, and you know what? I’ve been doing it for five years and it’s changed my life. That’s why you write books. That’s purpose-driven leadership, because that’s the fulfillment you feel when you get a little email like that every, I dunno, three years makes it all worth it. So that’s living it out, and I want to make sure that I try and do that as best I can. 

  

Stephanie Everett (33:51): 

Awesome. Well, thank you for being with me today. 

  

Dr. John Blakey (33:55): 

Great. Thanks Stephanie. 

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