#517: Passing the Torch: Mastering the Art of Succession, with Carol Bertsch & Brennen Boze

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer: 

Welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice in today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market. Lawyerist supports attorneys, building client-centered, and future-oriented small law firms through community, content, and coaching both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you The Small Firm Roadmap and your podcast hosts 

 

Speaker 1 (00:04): 

Welcome to the Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice. In today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market, Lawyerist supports attorneys building client-centered and future-oriented small law firms through community content and coaching, both online and through the Lawyerist lab. And now from the team that brought you the small firm roadmap and your podcast hosts. 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:35): 

Hi, I’m Stephanie Everett. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:36): 

And I’m Zack. And this is episode 517 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Sara talks with Labstes, Carol and Brennan about their experience with succession planning and passing the torch. 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:50): 

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Posh Virtual Receptionists. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:54): 

So Stephanie, speaking of passing the torch when this airs, it’ll be, I guess two days before the end of the Olympics, the Paris Olympics 2024. I don’t know about you, but I’ve been watching a ton of sports that I know about, sports that I don’t know about and all that, but you’re in Atlanta. You’ve been a part of one of the Olympics before, haven’t you? 

  

Stephanie Everett (01:15): 

Yes, it was one of my most favorite things that I’ve really experienced. So I had just graduated from college in the summer of 96, and I lucked out because my friend’s uncle worked at NBC, and basically he kind of said, get Diana and all her friends’ job. But I mean, when the Olympics come to town, you need a ton of temporary, you need to ramp up, you need a ton of temporary labor. These aren’t, I mean, there are people at NBC who work for the Olympics arms and they just go wherever the games are going to go for years and set up. And so somehow we ended up, we were in the logistics department, which is very glamorous. 

  

Zack Glaser (01:56): 

I mean, really that is, you’re moving things. You got to get everything there on time. 

  

Stephanie Everett (02:01): 

Well, our job was to get all of the equipment and people where they need it to be when we weren’t just moving sometimes equipment, but a lot of times the staff, the team. And so we have lots of fun stories about one of my college friends looked at, oh, you’re going to remember her name. What was summer? She was a swimmer. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:22): 

Summer Sanders. 

  

Stephanie Everett (02:23): 

Yes, 

  

Zack Glaser (02:24): 

Right, 

  

Stephanie Everett (02:24): 

I think so. And he basically looked at her and was like, what do you do? Are you an intern? And she was like, no, I’m a commentator. And he was like, cool, how’d you get that job? And she’s like, won three gold medals or fill in the blank gold medals. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:40): 

It was a little bit tougher than how you got yours. Yes. That is funny. Yeah, that is very 

  

Stephanie Everett (02:46): 

Funny. But the Olympics are cool. I mean, it’s a cool experience. I remember crying during the opening ceremony and now I cry during all opening. I mean, I’m just a sucker to cry. I cry a lot. Let’s just be honest. I get emotional, but it is so cool. And I think this Olympics has just brought us a ton of really cool stories. I posted on LinkedIn today, the picture of Simone Biles winning second and then them bowing to the gold medal winner 

  

Zack Glaser (03:14): 

To the gold medalists. Yeah, I think that’s my favorite part of the Olympics is the respect that when you become an elite athlete, when you’re elite at anything you do, having the respect of the other elite people like Mondo Duplantis is a Swedish pole vaulter, and he just broke the world record for the fifth time. But the guys that he was competing against while he was trying to break the record were his biggest cheerleaders. Yes. And there’s so many stories like that in the Olympics. 

  

Stephanie Everett (03:44): 

And even the guy who won, I should have prepped my notes to say all the guys’ names, but the guy who won the a hundred meters, he looked to the Noah Lyles. Yes. He looked to the Jamaican runner after the race, and he is like, I think you got me on that one. He didn’t even think he won. 

  

Zack Glaser (03:59): 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Noah Lyles keys, Shane Thompson, Fred Curley, all those guys were. I say that to the kids that I coach is I want you to go out here and run the best you possibly can, and I want your competitors to go out here and run the best they possibly can. I want your best to be better, of course. But it’s no good if you go out here and run and they trip. 

  

Stephanie Everett (04:21): 

Yeah. But okay, I love this because yes, you’re an elite. You’re at the top of your game and you’re so good, and you also recognize when someone was a little bit better than you that day. So then it made me think, I can’t remember, were we in the courtroom ever? And maybe, I don’t know. I’m super competitive, and did I ever tell my opposing counsel, wow, that was a great cross. You nailed that one. 

  

Zack Glaser (04:47): 

Yeah, and I think about that. I really do, because if you’re elite, if you’re confident in your ability, you should be able to tell the other side, even if they did better than you, or even if they beat you and you don’t feel that they did better than you should be able to tell the other side that they did well because you have confidence in how well you did. I think that’s what that’s indicative of. Yeah, 

  

Stephanie Everett (05:08): 

And I don’t think that’s our instinct. I mean, my instinct is this is something I need to work on. Because I mean, we see all the quotes and things like, we need to lift each other up. And I’m always like, yes, yes, I know we need to do that. And yet it is so hard to do hard. I’m going to confess that is something I have to work on because I mean, I am competitive and I sometimes let that take over and I get a little defensive and I get a little, I let my competitive edge get the best of me. 

  

Zack Glaser (05:43): 

And I think that’s just something to think about is the athletes that I see in competitions that aren’t quite elite, or I guess I see more of this in the elite athletes when they respect each other, when they can respect what does that game recognize as game. And we could probably do a little bit more of that in the legal field. 

  

Stephanie Everett (06:03): 

Yeah. Well, I’m super curious now to hear about your conversation with Posh and then we’ll hear Sara talk with Carol and Brennan. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:17): 

Hey y’all. Zack, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyerist. Today, I’d like to talk to you about the benefits of virtual receptionists. I have Natalia Rodriguez with me from Posh, and we’re actually going to talk a little bit more specifically about the integrations that Posh has as a virtual receptionist company and application. Natalia, thanks for being with me. 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (06:36): 

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:39): 

Yeah, let’s dig into Posh integrations and I guess why one would need integrations from the virtual receptionist service. What would be the benefit of that? 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (06:50): 

Sure. So the service that we’re offering is the virtual receptionist to pick up those phone calls, handle those inbound outbound calls, but just having an integration to A CRM on its own to manage your own clients clientele, paperwork, whatever it may be, that keeps it a lot more organized for you for the firm, especially if this is going to be multiple people working through this and not just a solo lawyer who’s handling that. So we typically do recommend some sort of like Cleo is big in the legal industry right now, Cleo manage, Cleo Grow. And so those are some of the platforms that we have direct integrations with through our software. So it makes for a seamless sort of feel when we are gathering that information. We’re automatically creating leads on your end automatically updating fields, sending notes so that you’re not having to go and copy and paste from one area and keep it generalized in the next. So typically it’s going to be a lot easier for you. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:45): 

Yeah, I guess that’s the point is if I’m using Posh to gather this information and then I have to hire somebody to put this information into the system a second time, then it doesn’t fully defeat the purpose. So if you do have a non integrating law practice management software, it’s still beneficial, but the major benefit is if you can just integrate right in there specifically, what kind of other things are able to be done with that integration for attorneys, I guess in that intake scenario? 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (08:14): 

So in the intake scenario, the integrations that we have specifically are going to speak to actually pushing the information that we’re gathering on those phone calls directly into the cm. But with Clio Grow, Clio manage a lot of those softwares will allow us to schedule as well. And so we are familiar with scheduling with those platforms because they allow us a link that sort of breaks down that calendar for us, gets it over to our receptionists. And again, since we’re accessing that link directly from Clio, that information is pushing directly to their Clio. Again, with those appointments, whether that be a new intake call or if that’s a current client follow up, it allows us to just go a step further again in that integration, in that system system and push that information right over while we’re on the call. 

  

Zack Glaser (08:57): 

Well, and I think more importantly, and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s having the information from the Cleo calendar as well on your end to be able to say, okay, this is a free time. Lawyers can keep track. Instead of having to input information into a Posh calendar to say, here’s when I’m not available. You just put it into the calendar you’re already working in, and then Posh works right in that calendar and can set up your meetings and whatnot, because that’s kind of the point, right? Yes. The point is to get phone calls, it’s to set up meetings, it’s to have intake and to do all of those things. Now, beyond integrations, Posh has an app that you can use directly on your phone and on the web that can allow people to have a little bit more direct access as well, 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (09:45): 

Correct? Yeah, so we’ve got the mobile app and the online portal, and those are going to act as a centralized database for anything that’s passing through the account. So that’s message delivery, that’s controlling when you’re available for phone calls, when you’re not available to receive a transfer that’s going to hold anything message usage wise, report wise, billing wise, all that information is going to be stored in those two. And the benefit of the online portals that it goes a little bit deeper than just the mobile app, but the benefit of the app being that you can have it on the go if you’re running into core or you’re running into a meeting and you need to just tap that button and say, Hey, I’m not available. You can do that right then and there. And that’s updating in real time for the receptionist who can from there, handle those calls accordingly, 

  

Zack Glaser (10:25): 

Right? Because I think that’s the use case that I think of from when I was practicing is I’m about to duck into court. Oh, I forgot to put that onto my calendar. I can let Posh know that I’m not available to take a phone call. Okay, great. Take a message or look at my calendar, integrate with Cleo, and you can actually set up a phone call or set up an intake. When previously, if I didn’t have the Posh app and I didn’t have the integration with Clio, that would’ve just been a lost phone call. 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (10:55): 

Correct. Yeah. And so that is a good benefit for, and as you were mentioning before, and not only allows you to just say when you’re available at a not available, but it allows you to give a certain instruction. So, Hey, I’m not available. Transfer to this person instead, transfer to this attorney, take a message schedule. And again, real time, it takes two minutes. You can type that into the app, you send the update and the receptionists are following it right then and there. 

  

Zack Glaser (11:18): 

That’s great. That’s great. Okay, well, we only have a little bit of time left. How can people connect with Posh? How can they learn more? 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (11:26): 

Yeah, absolutely. So with Lawyerist, especially if you’re hearing about us through this, we’ve got a two week free trial and our website specifically is Posh.com, and that’s where you can go. We’ve got a free trial that is going to encompass the exact setup that’s going to encompass the integration, the scheduling. You’re able to try out all those features and get a good feel for the service as well as your call volume prior to actually continuing on with anything. But posh.com is going to be the best way to reach out to us. We’ve got great team of sales reps who are ready to assist you and get that account up and running for you. 

  

Zack Glaser (11:58): 

Well, that’s awesome, Natalia, thanks for being with me and sharing this information. And again, we’ll put Posh.com in the show notes for anybody that wants to just click through. Again, thanks, Natalia. 

  

Natalia Rodriguez (12:09): 

Thanks you. 

  

Brennen Boze (12:13): 

I am Brennen Boze. I work here with Carol. We’ve got three lawyers and the total staff of 10. We do estate planning, probate, long-term care planning, and then we also do special needs planning to make sure that someone who has a child with special needs passes away. We’re not disrupting their loved one benefits. And that’s us. 

  

Sara Muender (12:34): 

Well, welcome to the Lawyerist podcast, you two. We’re so happy to have you here. Thanks for coming on, and thanks for being willing to talk about how you got here, and I’m really excited to hear about some transitions that you’ve had in your firm recently. So let’s just start there. I’ll let you introduce the topic of why we brought you on, and I know we’re going to talk about bringing Brennen on the podcast, or yes, bringing Brennen on the podcast, bringing Brennen to your firm and what that journey has been like. So tell us, 

  

Carol Bertsch (13:09): 

Well, I have decided that come next year, I will cut back to 75% time. So that’s one issue that prompted the succession planning. And then the other issue is just when I started my firm 28 years ago, I started with the end in mind of what am I going to do when it’s time to stop? Am I going to have someone who can buy the firm? So as I’m stepping back, I’m also trying to figure out how the firm can continue. We had Brennan come on as an associate four years ago, and he was the right person to bring on as a partner. 

  

Sara Muender (13:57): 

That’s a really exciting, and also I can imagine that’s, there’s a lot of big decisions involved in that. Carol, I really honor you. Thinking about your succession plan. I think that it’s something that not enough firm owners are thinking about, and maybe they have given some thought to, but you’re doing it. And so would you mind sharing what led to that decision? 

  

Carol Bertsch (14:25): 

I think starting when I started my practice, I read a lot of business books because I didn’t have any clue how to run a business. Of course, one book I read was Michael Gerber’s e Myth Revisited, and he talks about succession planning, as I recall, he does. It’s been a long time since I read the book, but that’s one place where I got it. Just business books in general seem to talk about succession planning. So it was always in the back of my mind. I’ve got to have a plan for when I step back. 

  

Sara Muender (15:01): 

And I can imagine that your business, a lot of people feel about their business. It means a lot to you. A lot of people say their business is their baby, which that could be a whole other topic. I like to encourage firm owners to think of their business as more of a teenager because babies require 24 hour care. But point is I’m sure that your business means a lot to you. So was that hard for you to decide who do I want ultimately to take over my firm? 

  

Carol Bertsch (15:31): 

It’s not hard to decide intellectually, but emotionally it’s a process. Even though I have full confidence in Brennan and I have full confidence in our staff, the thought of stepping back is difficult emotionally. I’m trying to separate myself from myself as a lawyer to not establish my identity solely as well. I’m an elder law attorney. That’s who I am. As I step back, I have to think about who else. 

  

Sara Muender (16:09): 

Yeah, that’s so important, and I’m so glad you touched on that. Thanks for willing to be vulnerable and open about that because it’s one of the concepts that we teach in lab, and it’s one of the first things that I work on with my Labster that I coach, is this idea of you are not the business, even though you are the lawyer in the firm may or may not be named after you, but the business is its own living, breathing, separate entity that we’re building, that we’re building value in that will give you options one day. And you’ve realized that, and you’ve realized I also have this life outside of the firm. Would you mind speaking a little bit more to that? How did you work through that process of there’s so much tied there to your identity, I’m sure, and this whole vision of what you really wanted for your life? 

  

Carol Bertsch (17:01): 

Well, again, it was easy intellectually because my husband is 13 years older than I am, and as elder law attorneys, we see every day people getting debilitating diseases, people dying unexpectedly. So I know that he, at 72, he’s closer to my husband, is closer to those possibilities, and I wanted to, when I turned 60, make sure that I had time with him and not be so focused on the business. So intellectually it was easy to make that a goal. When I turn 60, I’m going to step back so that I have time with my husband and can live that life and be with him before something happens if something happens. So as I said, that was an easy decision to make, but it’s hard to put into place because I put so much value on being in the firm, on working. I find it gratifying to do the work that I do to help the people I help. So I have to keep remembering my ultimate goal and my rationale for stepping back is worthy, and I need to honor that. 

  

Sara Muender (18:23): 

That was such a beautiful point, and I think that we don’t stop enough to think about our long-term vision for our life. And like you said, Carol, you’re in this work and you see what the later stages of life look like for a lot of people. And so that’s top of mind for you, but it’s not top of mind for maybe a lot of our listeners. And this conversation applies no matter what stage you are in your career or what age you are. I think because succession planning should come into the conversation, I think from the very beginning. And it doesn’t mean you have to know exactly what you’re going to do right away when you start your firm, but you should be thinking about what’s my role in this firm and also the life that you’re building outside of the business and what matters to you. 

  

(19:12): 

So how can we put things in place within the business to support what we want in our personal lives? I just think that’s really beautiful, and I honor that, Carol, that you’re honoring that and you’re actually doing it. You’re putting the things in place. And Brandon, I’d love to hear your thoughts. What was that like for you coming in to someone’s firm knowing that there’s so much heart that’s built within it? What was it like for you? Obviously you came in as a working attorney, but what was that process been like for you as those conversations started to come up? 

  

Brennen Boze (19:48): 

Coming to work here was really kind of serendipitous for me. I was a lawyer for 11 years before I came to work here, and I was in litigation, so I was doing personal injury, litigation, product liability, construction defect, those kinds of things. I met Carol and I had never considered elder law. It was not something, like you say, a lot of people put these kind of issues at back of mind. It was not something that I had really thought a lot about, but when I met Carol and came to visit here and meet everybody that worked here, it was just a totally different experience than any kind of law firm that I had ever been with. Part of that, it’s a smaller practice, a smaller firm, not as many lawyers, but just the vibe, the culture, the way she operates. Like you say, you can really feel that love she has for what she does and the people she serves. 

  

(20:41): 

And that was so attractive to me. That was something that, to be honest, I really didn’t know if I wanted to be a lawyer long term after doing 10 years of litigation. And this was a completely new path that was just really changed the way I thought about what I do and how I can actually be of service. And frankly, Carol was very transparent from the beginning that she was looking at a succession plan long term. She didn’t tell me at the interview that you’re going to be partner, but that was something that was a little daunting at first, that she is, this is what she’s looking for, I need to be, if this is what I want to do. And I quickly realized that it was, I need to step up and prove myself worthy of it. And so that’s just always in the back of my mind is making sure that we’re talking a lot about honoring things. I’m honoring what Carol has built and the people she serves. 

  

Sara Muender (21:39): 

For the listeners, I have just a little note for listeners. Don’t you wish that every attorney that you brought onto your firm had that level of heart and respect for those values and that love, and why not? I think that that’s why it’s so important to have those conversations during the interview process because now look what you guys have created together. So let’s transition a little bit to that, to the actual transition of the succession plan, if you will, of bringing Brennan in and sort of taking over some things. Where are you at now and speak a little to how that process unfolded. 

  

Brennen Boze (22:21): 

Well, Carol, like I say, has been planning this for a long time, but we didn’t have a structure in place, an actual mechanism for making it happen. And so we have met with business advisors and with Lawyerist to talk about what is the framework of this transition look like? What does the actual mechanics of the deal look like? And we’re still, I think, in the early stages of that, we have an in date in mind, but we don’t have paperwork yet. But that’s what we’re working on right now is we each have representation. We’re talking to them about how we want it to look and relying on our professionals to help guide us in the right direction. 

  

Sara Muender (23:05): 

Awesome. Awesome. Obviously, you’re still kind of early in this process and I understand that. What were some of the things, Carol, that you had to start thinking about in this decision of bringing Brennen in to take over some things? 

  

Carol Bertsch (23:23): 

I guess the biggest thing to think about was just letting go of complete control, considering the opinion of someone else and making final decisions decision. That was hard. 

  

Sara Muender (23:36): 

Yeah, that’s fair. I can imagine that would be hard for anyone. How did you work through that? 

  

Carol Bertsch (23:43): 

Well, I’m still working through it. It’s just a matter of remembering my goal, remembering my value, my values, the things that are motivating me to do what I’m doing, and also reminding myself, which I don’t have to worry about, but that Brennen and I, our values are aligned. He has a similar vision for the firm and just reminding myself that it’s okay. 

  

Sara Muender (24:11): 

Yeah, I mean it’s so simple, but easier said than done. Right. 

  

Carol Bertsch (24:15): 

Easier said than done. Yes, 

  

Sara Muender (24:17): 

Absolutely. Well, I honor that you’re willing to have those conversations with yourself and with Brennan. So logistically speaking, what are some of the challenges involved that you maybe have faced so far in this transition and maybe what you foresee kind of coming down the future in terms of the shifting of roles and if you think about an accountability chart in a firm and the functions of a business and who’s serving those functions, what are some of those challenges that other people might think about if they’re considering this? Well, 

  

Brennen Boze (24:59): 

I think where I started was right now and knowing kind of the process that Carol was working through letting go, where I have tried to come forward is to say, what do you want taken off your plate right now? What is dragging you down? What is wearing you down? What is not gratifying? You let me take on some of that. And so that hopefully that continues to build the confidence that somebody else can step in and I don’t have to have complete control over every element. And if we start with that stuff, then the bigger stuff will naturally fall into place, I think. So it is not so much a challenge as just identifying where are those things that I could step in and ease Carol’s mind as opposed to weighing on her that somebody’s making a decision that maybe she wouldn’t have made herself or she’s not used to having secondary input on. 

  

Sara Muender (25:51): 

Yeah. Carol, what types of functions have been the hardest to let go of? 

  

Carol Bertsch (25:58): 

How we spend our money has been hard to let go of. I like to make donations to left wing causes, and luckily Brennan and I are pretty aligned politically as well, but I still in general, it’s not that he’s interfered with those decisions, but I have, well, that’s not really fair. That’s not true. I have made those same decisions, but it occurs to me when I’m doing it that it’s something that I should run by him as well. I shouldn’t just unilaterally make the gift. 

  

Sara Muender (26:42): 

Yeah, that makes so sense. It’s sort of this whole mindset shift of, if you use the analogy of getting married, I hate to use that analogy, but I can’t think of a better one, but when you get married and you have this new life partner, and especially if two people haven’t been dating for a long time, if you will, I’ve been there, it’s a mindset shift of it’s not just me, it’s us now. And that would be hard for a lot of firm owners, I’ll tell you that because they tie so much of their individual value and identity to the firm and the firm decisions. And so I can imagine that that would be hard, but the payoffs is that you are acting out on your succession plan and you’re bringing in someone who seems to be really, really aligned with what’s important to you. 

  

(27:39): 

Carol, so before we get into the longer term vision, you mentioned that you’ve been working with Lawyerist to sort help you through this process. What’s been helpful there? I guess I’ll just sort of put us some blast a little bit here and say, it’s such an honor to be working with y’all in this process and helping guiding you through it. But what’s been helpful, what’s come up so that other listeners are thinking about going through this process in their own succession plan and whether or not they work with Lawyerist to help them. What’s sort of the things that come up? What’s been helpful? 

  

Carol Bertsch (28:16): 

Well, we had an all day session with my coach, Letitia, and that was helpful in giving us more structure. It helped us realize, or it helped me realize that our values were very much aligned and that made me more comfortable. I was already comfortable, but that was reassurance that we were making the right decision. 

  

Brennen Boze (28:41): 

I was going to say, for me, the big things with Lawyerist that I’ve gotten out of it are one, just the accountability factor that you’re meeting with somebody who knows what’s going on, who understands business. And as a lawyer, I didn’t consider myself a business person, so having that sounding board is big, first of all. But then just the accountability factor. And I think the biggest thing that Lawyerist is instilled in me is that when you set goals, you have to have metrics and deadlines. You have to have markers that get you to that goal. And goals, to me, were always kind of a pie in the sky thing, and it’s helped me make more grounded goals and put more individual steps with achievable markers in place to get there. 

  

Sara Muender (29:29): 

Oh yeah, we’ll make sure that you’re measuring what you’re working on. It’s like that saying, I forget who said it, but you can’t manage what you don’t measure. And it’s so true. We’re really big on if there’s anything that you’re working on or going after, if there’s any goals or targets that you’re trying to reach, you’ve got to have some metrics that you’re tracking because otherwise, how do we know if we’re on track? How do we know if we’re reaching them? I’m glad that that’s been helpful for you. Carol, did you have any other thoughts on 

  

Carol Bertsch (30:01): 

No, I’ve been grateful to have Letitia to guide me through this and be a resource. 

  

Sara Muender (30:09): 

Yeah, we love her. I remember when Letitia came on as a coach, we were all really excited and she’s just like, she’s blown us away. She’s an incredible coach. Letitia, if you’re listening, I’m really glad that you work here with me and she’s great. Our Labster, love her. Alright, well what’s next for y’all? What’s next in the process and what are we working towards now? 

  

Carol Bertsch (30:33): 

The next step is to get our paperwork done and actually have the agreement on paper and for me to figure out what I’m going to do with my time 25% of my time. 

  

Sara Muender (30:46): 

That’s exciting. I would think that would be exciting. It’s like a whole new world of opportunities. Do you have any ideas of what that might be? 

  

Carol Bertsch (30:55): 

I’m going to do yoga. 

  

Sara Muender (30:56): 

Love it. I love it. And Carol, just to clarify, are you working your way completely out of the firm or are you still going to have a role? 

  

Carol Bertsch (31:06): 

No, I’m still going to have a role. My plan is to be completely out in 10 years by the time I’m 70, but keep pulling back and pushing Brennen forward. 

  

Sara Muender (31:19): 

We’re just going to keep piling it on you, Brennan. That’s 

  

Brennen Boze (31:21): 

Alright. I’ve gotten over the last year really a crash course and what it means to be a business owner, which is something I had never done before. So for me, a lot of it is learning the financial side of things, learning how behind the scenes, operations, bank deposits, just simple things that happen every day, but that if you’re a cog in a machine that you’re not necessarily privy to. Just seeing how all of that works and understanding what’s important, why you got to keep an eye on and just taking on more and more responsibility as Carol continues to step back over the next few years. 

  

Sara Muender (31:57): 

Then that seems like a lot, and I can imagine at times it can be a little bit daunting because it is a lot. And this idea of taking on more and more, like how do you personally reconcile that with the fact that you already have a full-time role and I’m sure you have a life outside of the firm. How do you think that you’re going to manage it all or what do you think is going to be important? 

  

Brennen Boze (32:22): 

I’m really fortunate in that Carol has such a solid infrastructure in place. We have such good staff and employees that really could keep this place running even if I wasn’t here. I feel like, I mean, we just have a wonderful staff and so that is some reassurance to know that if I get bogged down in the business operations side of things, the legal side of things is going to keep flowing. And that is a big comfort to me, but it’s also something that I know I have to continue nurturing and developing because that didn’t just happen automatically. Farrell built that and I have to maintain it. And so it’s not overwhelming at this point, but it is a little scary. I mean, it makes you apprehensive to think that, oh my gosh, I’m working full time and now I’m going to have these new responsibilities. But they’re exciting responsibilities, so I’m eager to take on more. I’m enjoying what I’ve learned so far. One day I’ll hopefully be doing a succession plan like Carol and I can worry about stepping back at that point. But right now, I’m excited about ramping up. 

  

Sara Muender (33:32): 

I’m excited for you. I think that we should all have some scary goals that we’re working on. That’s where the human drive comes in and kind of pushing your limits of what’s possible while also having the support around you to make it happen and to overcome the challenges along the way. Well, and Carol and Brennan, thanks for coming on the show. It’s been such a joy talking to you about what you’re working on and this overall succession plan and this big transition. Carol, I’m really excited about your yoga that I’m sure that you’ve got some ideas of what you’re going to do with that, and you’re spending more time with your husband and living your life, and that’s what this is about. At the end of the day, that’s why we build a business to support our personal life endeavors. That’s what I believe. And Brennan, your career is really taking some heights and I’m celebrating that for you and what you bring to the table with this, what’s possible and how you all are going to serve your clients. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your journey with us. 

  

Brennen Boze (34:40): 

Thank you. Thank you for having us, Sara. 

  

Zack Glaser (34:44): 

So Whiles podcast is added by Brittany. Felix, are you ready to implement the ideas we discussed here into your practice, wondering what to do next? Here are your first steps. First, if you haven’t read the Small Firm roadmap yet, grab the initial chapter for free at Lawyerist dot com slash book, looking for help beyond the book. Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities are right for you. Head the Lawyerist dot com slash community slash lab for more information. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you. 

 

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