Picture this: an estate planning attorney with a twist—owning a law firm by day and conjuring up imaginative, offbeat celebrations for the dearly departed by night.
In this intriguing episode, Sara interviews Jolene Blackbourn, Labster and trailblazing estate planning attorney and entrepreneur, who has taken a distinctive approach to end-of-life celebrations.
Learn how Jolene blends her passion with her profession with her unique method of infusing her love for Halloween culture into the traditional landscape of estate planning. We invite you to challenge your notions about end-of-life planning while celebrating the magic of honoring individuality and explore ways to seamlessly blend law and creativity into your practice.
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Thanks to Posh Virtual Receptionists, NetDocuments & LawPay. for sponsoring this episode.
Welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice in today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market. Lawyerist supports attorneys, building client-centered, and future-oriented small law firms through community, content, and coaching both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you The Small Firm Roadmap and your podcast hosts
Zack Glaser (00:35):
Hi, I’m Zack.
Stephanie Everett (00:36):
And I’m Stephanie Everett. And this is episode 479 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Sara talks with Jolene Blackburn about unusual ways to connect with clients.
Zack Glaser (00:50):
Today’s podcast is brought to you by Posh Virtual Receptionists, NetDocuments & LawPay. We wouldn’t be able to do this show without their support, so stay tuned and we’ll tell you more about them later on. So Stephanie, as the year winds down for us, obviously just like anybody else, we reassess what we do, what our offerings are, what our goals are for the next year, and so we’ve got some new things, new pricing, and new offerings coming up in the new year that people may want to take advantage of. So what are we doing?
Stephanie Everett (01:21):
Absolutely. I hope our listeners know by now that we offer an additional level of support to lawyers who want to work on building a healthy firm. We do that in our Lawyerist lab coaching program where you can work with our coaches one-on-one, you get access to all of our on-demand materials. We have weekly workshops. We’re doing so many cool things in there and connecting you with our community and with our coaches and with our content. We’ve listened to some of our members, we’ve heard some feedback, and so we’re going to be changing what lab looks like slightly in the new year, and we’re just going to be offering different types of support for our members. With that, it’s going to come a price increase. We still think we’re going to be priced really smartly, I don’t know what’s the right word?
Zack Glaser (02:13):
Competitively. Yeah, extremely competitively.
Stephanie Everett (02:17):
Yeah, I know. I mean, look, I’m just going to say a lot of our competitors really raise their prices in the past couple of years, and that’s never really been us or who we are, but it’s time. We do need to raise our prices, but that’s why we’re changing also some of the support that we’re going to be providing to go along with that price increase. That said, if you’re concerned about that, we think the investment’s well worth it and it’s going to pay for itself big time. People could have the opportunity right now to join in December and be able to unlock the current level of support and the current pricing. So I’m not one to say, come on down, folks, before the price comes up, but maybe,
Zack Glaser (03:01):
Yeah. Well, and it’s kind of a funny thing because it’s not just a price increase, it’s a change in the way that we’re offering some of the things, and it’s really because we want to offer different things. We have a lot of new coaches. We have the ability to do more stuff now. And so it is weird to say, come jump in at where we’re at right now, but we’re moving to some places that we think are fantastic.
Stephanie Everett (03:29):
Yeah, I think no matter which level of support you opt in for, whether that be the December level or January, it’s going to be amazing. And I’m just really excited. We’ve been doing some stuff on the backend with our team, and we’re always looking to up our game. We’re always looking at how we can challenge ourselves to bring even more and be better for the community. And we are, I’m here to say I’m loud and proud right now, so impressed with our team, and I see the results our community members are getting. So if this is a good time of year, a lot of people are thinking about their business, they’re thinking about goal setting, thinking about all the things they want to do next year, and if some help feels like a right next step for you, I want to say yes, get on the call with us and let’s just talk about it. It’s very low pressure sales. We don’t even know how to do high pressure sales on this team, let’s be honest. But we always give the link at the end of the show or you can just email one of us and we’ll get you connected in with the right way. But we would love to talk to you because we just really helping people.
Zack Glaser (04:31):
Well, and you can always connect with us at email at Lawyerist dot com. And now here is Sara’s conversation with Jolene.
Jolene Blackbourn (04:43):
Hi, I am Jolene. I am an estate planning attorney based out of Los Angeles, California. I am virtual, so I help people throughout the state of California protect their assets and their loved ones. I’m also a bit of a serial entrepreneur. I’ve done a couple of different things, just all passion projects and a lot of them supplementing my estate planning business. And then I’m also a parent of two Neurodiverse children.
Sara Muender (05:10):
Well, Jolene, I’m super excited to have you on the Lawyerist podcast and have the audience get to know you because I’ve had the joy of getting to know you over the past year in our coaching calls, and you are by far one of the coolest people that we have in lab. You’re doing some really cool things and you’re just a really, really good person. You have a really big heart, and you’re always full of joy and light, and I just love every time I get to interact with you in any capacity. So this is fun for me. I think that the audience is going to need to hear sort of your story about your firm. We have a lot of estate planners that listen. We have a lot of other estate planners in lab. I think that what you’ve done with this kind of traditional practice area and merging it with some of your life’s passions and things that are really important to you has been one of the coolest stories. So why don’t you just kind of start with how you got into what you’re doing?
Jolene Blackbourn (06:08):
Yeah, I’d love to. And first of all, thank you, Sara for those lovely words. I appreciate it. So I actually started my career as an estate planning attorney, and I left after a few years. I just really had trouble back pre-internet, making it work, the marketing and all that was so different back then. So came back to it a handful of years ago and had a very different approach, I think with the internet and just life experience and having listened to entrepreneur podcasts and then partway through my estate planning journey, joining Lawyerist. So yeah, one of the first things that I did is I started hearing other products that estate planning attorneys offered, and one of them was this very high-end Trust, which I thought, wow, that’s great. I can do less work and help people even more in this one area. It was like a Medicare trust and it was bothering me for months because I didn’t want to pay for the course.
I just didn’t really have a lot of extra money. It’s just one more thing on my plate and can I even sell that? Find the right client for that. So one of the first things that Lawyerist helped me with, which was so helpful, is they said, well, you don’t need to take the class. Just find an attorney who already offers that, and then find out how to promote it to your own people and then be split. And I thought that was brilliant because I could start offering it today instead of a month from now or after spending $5,000 or whatever. So I reached out to some other attorneys and a bunch of them said, there are better ways to serve your clients. You can get them the same results for less money. I used to offer those trusts and I don’t anymore. And that was it. I was so happy to have learned that from several attorneys. Yes. So I took it off my plate
Sara Muender (07:49):
Before you invested all that. Yeah.
Jolene Blackbourn (07:51):
Yes. And it was just like I never would’ve thought to do that if not for Lawyerist. So love my coach who was coaching me at the time, and just really gave me more time, mental time to move on to the next thing. So yes. So then actually when I was working with you, I shared an idea I had that was bothering me again, but I just didn’t see how to make it work. I didn’t know what to do with it. And that was, I’ve always had a passion for Halloween. I love everything Halloween. And part of my love of estate planning I think kind of evolved from that level of Halloween and not really being afraid of death or having those death conversations with people, even people who are dying. So my new idea was I realized I want my friends to dress up like a grim reaper at my funeral. I feel like that would represent me, and honestly, they could dress up however they like, but I felt like the Reaper was very appropriate because that is an escort to the afterlife.
Sara Muender (08:45):
And if for those who are listening, yes, she said grim reaper at her funeral. You heard her right.
Jolene Blackbourn (08:53):
Yes. So that evolved into the idea of for some people, the best way to say goodbye is to have a grim reaper literally transport their loved one to the afterlife, to escort them to the other world. And you would do the grim reaper does not bring death. They just help escort you. So this new business idea of mine fantasy funerals came from that idea of there will be people out there that need this, that want to have a grim reaper or even another transporter. Every culture has their own person that takes you to the other side. We have a UBIs in Egyptology, we have Valkyrie in Norse mythology. So eventually this business will expand to those other characters. But for now it’s the grim reaper. And I was at a total roadblock. I couldn’t figure out how to make it work. I wasn’t sure I should even try because I’m kind of busy with my law firm. And when we talked, I think the conversation was honestly as simple as you should just do it. And even though in my head I had kind of been saying that I couldn’t put the pieces together, but just talking to you and having that support, all of a sudden I figured out the problem I was having. It just snapped together and I was able to bully those ahead. And it’s been great. I’ve had so much fun people in my industry of Halloween, love the idea. It’s been a lot of fun the last couple of months.
Sara Muender (10:17):
I love it. And we’re going to get to that and kind of what it looks like now and how that ties together with your estate planning business. But if I recall during that conversation when we were kind of brainstorming this idea, and it all kind of clicked for you, I think we were doing a SWOT analysis on your business, and when you do a SWOT analysis, S stands for strengths. What are the strengths of your business? W stands for weaknesses, and you’re just capturing these as you go through. And then we got to owe opportunities. And we had already been talking for, I don’t know, I want to say like 45 minutes when you just kind of said in passing this idea of fantasy funerals. And it caught my attention, and this isn’t a normal everyday type of coaching call. And so I thought, wait a minute, let’s tell me more about this.
This sounds really cool. So we captured the idea of fantasy funerals in opportunities, and it just opened up this whole conversation. And I’m telling you, this is why we spend time talking about what’s important to you and what do you do outside of work because there’s so many opportunities to create a law firm to create a business that kind of captures and reflects those sort of individual values. So what does it look like now? Let’s just skip to the fun part. You did a lot between then and where you are now, but what does it kind of look like? How does it tie into your business?
Jolene Blackbourn (11:41):
Yeah, first of all, it’s been great because again, the more you put yourself out there, the more you get back, you get feedback. So the fact that that came up with you started that ball rolling. And then I started working at conventions, and it has expanded into even more because I realized, especially grim reaper is a symbol of closure. So if dad’s turning 60 or if mom’s retiring or if you’re throwing yourself a divorce party, you can have the grim reaper come and close that. And we’re even hosting closure ceremonies next month. So if you have some negative emotion about relationship and you just want to get it off your plate, out of your head, we’re going to be doing meetups around town and we’re going to let people give the reaper what they need to unload and close the book on. So it’s been great. And yeah, it has really tied in. So some of my estate planning clients are fans of fantasy funerals, and some are absolutely not. So it just depends. You almost have to kind of feel out your audience first, because I definitely had a client that was highly offended, but others even there will be-
Sara Muender (12:53):
Jolene Blackbourn (12:54):
Yes. Even that person’s spouse though thought it was hilarious. So it can be one half of a couple, but it’s been great because now people, I think when I’m talking to them already about estate planning and okay, do you want to be cremated or buried? And what’s that look like for you? They now have these other options. And I mean with fancy funerals, I’m not going to take a deposit if you’re not dying for 40 years or that type of thing. But it is something they can write in and they can say, I want a grim reaper at my funeral. I want fancy funerals at my funeral. And it just gives them more, I dunno, peace of mind. Estate planning already gives people peace of mind, but knowing that everything has been locked down, everything has been cemented in, and especially it’s them. It represents who they really are and at the time it’ll be who they really were.
Sara Muender (13:43):
It’s one way to make your life story and the celebration of your life and your funeral unique for sure. And what’s really cool about this, Jolene, is for the average listener, they’re probably thinking, are there even people out there that would want to do that? Are there even people out there like Jolene who are really interested in the Halloween culture and who kind of celebrate this and get into it and go to the conventions? And the answer is yes, if there’s a Jolene, there are a lot more people like Jolene out there who think this is cool. Who would embrace this, who would want it and who would pay for it? Which just speaks to the power of developing what your thing is and now incorporating it into your business. I mean, I love this. I think that’s what makes the world go round. And you’ve found your people, it sounds like.
Jolene Blackbourn (14:34):
Yeah, it’s made it a lot easier too, to speak at these Halloween conventions, not just have a booth there because I can speak about estate planning, I can speak about what do you want your funeral to look like? And it’s this whole seamless flow. It’s one big thing. And again, everyone picks and chooses what they want to see happen. Some people only want beautiful flowers and whatever, but that’s fine. And then again, but it gets some thinking about it because a lot of times as estate planning attorneys, we might just have them fill out the form, okay, cremate it, buried, okay, done, scattered here or there, and that’s it. But we don’t actually flush out what does that funeral look like? If you had a preference, what would that be? And for some of them, I mean, I know my grandma, she used to say, I want a big funeral. Basically, she just wanted us all sobbing there, the whole thing.
She loved attention, so she just really wanted to be the focus. And I think as she got older, she kind of let a lot of that go, but everyone’s a little bit different. So she wanted more a very serious, we miss you grandma, but other people are like, yeah, let’s have a party. I want to have party games. I mean, all that kind of stuff. And the grim reaper, I mean, we live in an Instagram world, so we could have ops. I mean, this could be the grim reaper can be holding your ashes, your friend’s ashes, and you take pictures so that it’s like you’re taking a picture with your friend, but it’s not just you holding the box, it’s you and the grim reaper holding the box. It’s just this little something extra, and we all have trouble saying goodbye. We all have trouble realizing this is it.
We’re not going to see this person or talk to them anymore. And so having that physical representation of this person is being literally transported, taken away, can be really helpful for that visual closure of, okay, I see it and I can accept it a little bit more. It’s still not going to completely close that picture, but I think it can really help people. And again, that’s what we do as estate planning attorneys. We’re trying to help people make things easier. And I feel like this really does complete that picture for some people of, yeah, I feel better, I feel more at peace. I feel like I’ve done everything that this person would’ve wanted. And especially when we come out with the Valkyrie, I feel like that will be so important to military families because technically the Valkyrie is supposed to only help those who, or take those who were brave warriors who died in battle. And for some of those warriors, they’re still battling even after they come home. So I would count that a hundred percent, and I think that could really provide some closure to those families.
Sara Muender (17:06):
Yeah, that’s going to blow up. I know that’s going to be really successful for you. This is just so cool. And I think I’m just now realizing now that we’re having this conversation, how much value it does bring to clients. It’s not just cool and different, but there’s some sort of healing element to it, as odd as that seems. And you’ve found a really unique way to connect with your potential clients, to connect with your clients and bring something different, a new element. I can’t really put a finger on what the word would be, but it’s not necessarily a joy bringing joy to the occasion, but it’s bringing something that I don’t know, what do you think? What word am I searching for here? Connection. Maybe.
Jolene Blackbourn (17:51):
It is hard because yeah, when someone dies that we’re very close to, we want to do all the things. We want a lock it, we want some kind of memento, we want add in the paper. I dunno. We want all these things. And yeah, this is one big thing that can help provide that closure. And so yeah, it is hard to find exactly what it does. Not exactly satisfaction. It’s not exactly, yeah, happiness what it is. There is a comfort there.
Sara Muender (18:18):
Yeah, I guess there’s no better word than closure. And that’s what you’ve found and that’s the value that you bring. We’re going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and then I want to dive into this idea of how you marketed this and really more so how you crafted your messaging around this and how you use this to connect with clients. So we’ll be right back.
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Sara Muender (21:00):
Back. And I would like to know how do you market this? Because I know that the listeners are thinking, yeah, this is unique and different, and maybe they’re thinking about how they can bring a new element to their practice and how they can add in some kind of, I guess you call it avenue for connection with clients, something that makes them different and unique. But how did you go about marketing this? And to your point that you made earlier, how do you bring this up with potential clients who don’t know that you do this?
Jolene Blackbourn (21:31):
So as far as marketing, I have videos constantly going on TikTok and Instagram, and so that’s my main marketing source and it’s been a lot of fun. Anytime I travel, I take my whole primary per costume with me. And that was the breakthrough I had on our call was I kept thinking I had to hire someone, but I realized I’m completely undercover. I can be the grim reaper. And so that is what enabled me to move forward. And at events I do now have someone, but for the everyday TikTok videos and to get started, it was me. And so that is my main marketing source as far as bringing this up to clients and finding other ways that you can support your clients or maybe bring in other industries. First of all, as far as how I bring it up to my clients, one, it’s usually easiest if I am giving a speech or I come from a convention where I’ve had a booth so that we can almost backdoor the estate planning because they already know about fantasy funerals, so they’re already prepared to talk about death, and then they’re like, oh wow, we can take care of all business.
If I come from the estate planning end, I usually tiptoe into it a bit more. Again, I never know exactly who’s going to be offended and who’s really not supportive of this. So I usually kind of throw out some thoughts and some random words just to test those waters, and I just kind of gauge how they’re feeling with it. But I do talk with them about their funeral in a general sense, what would you like to see and do you want a lot of flowers? Do you want a lot of people? Do you want a viewing? Not at all that stuff. And so that’s how I kind of tiptoe into it as far as offering different services, maybe something that’s different than everybody else. I’ve been really reaching out to death doulas because I think that’s so tied into both of my offerings. So if they’re talking to someone who’s about to pass away and helping comfort them and make plans, they might want to grim reaper and do they have their estate planning documents in order?
And so that’s one really good source, especially if you have someone that you really end up connecting with. You can always let your clients know, okay, we’re creating your estate plan, you’re healthy today. Here’s a list of resources that if you need them in the future, this is what I recommend. And that’s just a bonus to your clients that you have a list ready to go so that when they need hospice care, when they need a doula, when they need whatever it is that they need, you’ve already got this lovely list of trusted partners. So anybody like that in the industry, I’ve really been kind of expanding. At one of these conferences, I met a satanic minister, which at first, yeah, I’m like, what do you do? But of course I was at a convention, so I said, okay, we got to take this very neutrally here.
So I asked her, what do you do? And it turns out it’s just so different than what I expected, and I was just so glad that I was very open to hearing what she had to say because I think that would shut down a lot of people. And it turns out they are a nonprofit group that really provides a lot of charity and good works for people. I thoroughly checked out their website and it’s a great organization, but you definitely meet different people when you’re at these Halloween conventions and when you’re promoting a funeral business that’s so off. So you can definitely meet different types of people and just add that into your repertoire. I do know some estate planning attorneys either become financial advisors or get connected with financial advisors to create as part of the estate plan, an automatic you need to meet with this financial advisor just to make sure you have all your other ducks in a row like your life insurance.
Another service I offer now is the prepaid funeral. So we’re talking about your funeral, but let’s pay for it and let’s get your cremation paid for. And especially a lot of my clients don’t really know what they want, so at a minimum, the cheapest thing is cremation, so let’s at least get that paid for so your family doesn’t have to pay for it. They don’t have to wonder who to call. It’s automatically done. It’s one less stress, and if they decide that they want to bury you, then they pay the difference, but at least something’s covered. They don’t have to whip other checkbook necessarily. And I mean, that’s what it’s all about, right? It’s helping our clients be at Addies or their families, be at ease as much as possible through the entire process from incapacity until that last dollar is distributed. So yeah, I mean, if people want to become either mortuary type agents like I am or just associating with some so that it’s an automatic, okay, we just finished your estate plan, now I’m going to send you over to this mortuary to finish that part.
So there’s a lot of ways we can provide that next step that isn’t part of our little law school 1 0 1 estate planning, right? Menu of services. So I think there’s a lot of ways that people can make this their own within their own interests. I know not everyone’s going down my path, so they can certainly, whether it’s even just, Hey, okay, this client is 70, let’s plan a 75th birthday party. Let’s make sure we honor you while you’re still planning to be here. So as far as we know, you’ll still be here. What is that next birthday? Okay, you’re 39 when we did your trust. Let’s have a 40th birthday party. Maybe that’s your thing. And you want to make sure your clients celebrate their life while they’re still here. So yeah, there’s a lot of different ways can do this.
Sara Muender (26:44):
There’s so much that I’ve gotten from this conversation already, and I’m sure the listeners are too. It’s new creative things to add to your menu of legal services. It’s creative ways to connect with people, not necessarily directly aligned with your industry, but outside the industry to get those referrals and to build those relationships. I think arguably for you, that is your biggest marketing strategy. It’s relationship-based marketing. It’s networking, it’s building connections with people that open up doors of opportunity. And I think that that’s one of the most successful marketing strategies that you could focus on. Of course, you’re doing social media content and other things as well. One thing I will say, Jolene, is you do very well, is you approach the topic of dying and death in such a gentle way that it doesn’t diminish or downplay the significance or heaviness of the topic itself, but you make it more palatable.
You make it softer for people to talk about. And I’ve seen you do that through your content marketing. And every estate planner that I talk to you come to mind because when we’re, I’m in a coaching call, for example with someone and we’re developing their content strategy for their estate planning practice, I just remember how good Jolene is at approaching this subject and talking about it and making it just part of everyday conversation. You have a unique way of doing that. Can you speak to that at all or maybe the importance of that? Have you always been like that or is this kind of developed as your practice has developed?
Jolene Blackbourn (28:28):
Well, I feel like I’ve always been like this, but I don’t know if we talk to my clients when I did estate planning 20 years ago, maybe they wouldn’t say. So for me, I feel like it’s funny. It is kind of a natural thing for me. I feel like to just talk about it, and it doesn’t matter to me if the person’s 20 year olds and totally healthy or 30 years old and stage four cancer. It doesn’t, to me, the conversation’s not really different. But I have seen in Facebook groups I belong to and things like that where other estate planning attorneys are saying, I have that second type of conversation. I don’t know what to say to her and treat her. She’s a normal human being because I’m sure she’s getting plenty from family and friends of people putting their own emotions on her.
And now she has to not only deal with her own drama, but everybody else’s drama and she doesn’t need that from her estate planning attorney. She just needs, here’s the facts, here’s what we’re going to do, here’s how we’re going to do it just like you treat everybody else. So to me, that just comes naturally. But I know it’s definitely not to everybody else. I see it all the time in Facebook posts, and I’m not sure what that is. I just think I’ve always felt like life and death are just one big circle, and it is a part of it. And I know when I started my estate planning journey back 20 years ago, I really hadn’t been through any major deaths, very close to home type of things. But since leaving estate planning and coming back, I definitely have, and I can’t say that has impacted me necessarily in the sense I feel like I’m the same person as I handle this. But I certainly do know those first stages of grief very much more clearly. And again, I think that really helps me push my clients a little more towards, I don’t care if you don’t know what you want, cremation, burial, whatever, let’s at least write down something. So yeah, it is. For some people, I think it is helpful to have that firsthand experience, but I feel like that was always just a natural part of who I’m,
Sara Muender (30:24):
Yeah, I mean, you really do bring a lightness to a topic that people are just uncomfortable talking about. They’re uncomfortable addressing it with themselves, let alone someone that they don’t know, like an estate planning attorney. And I think that makes you really approachable. So how has your practice changed, just in summary, from where you started to where you are now? What are you hopeful for about the future?
Jolene Blackbourn (30:51):
Yeah, it’s definitely grown as far as, for some reason, I was only attracting older individuals before. Now I have a much wider range of clients, and then again, I have different services I’m offering, so it’s just grown within the client base. And then as far as outside the client base as well, and it’s really been a journey. I definitely recommend, honestly, people get on that social media if they’re not, because I think that’s impacted me a lot as well. Just dealing with notaries and real estate agents on the internet has, I think, impacted my business as well. And if I didn’t say this earlier, coaching is where it’s at. Always have a coach. I was-
Sara Muender (31:29):
Jolene Blackbourn (31:30):
Yes, because yeah, just since joining Lawyerist, which it’s been 11 months now, yeah, I’ve grown so much both and personally, and I’ve been able to just release so many things that were running around in my brain, like I said about the Medicare trust and just every idea I have, I have a sounding board and so much support. And even just from the other lobsters, they are amazing. And so sometimes in the group coaching calls, I’m getting more advice from the fellow lobsters, but they are in my exact situation or they were in my exact situation. And so it has been super helpful. So that’s another thing. I mean, just never go without a coach. Even if you think you got it, you probably don’t.
Sara Muender (32:14):
It’s unlocked so much for you.
Jolene Blackbourn (32:16):
Yeah, Lawyerist, it is head to toe, it’s tech support, it’s personal support, like you said, whole person support, not just business support. And then because you guys are focused on law firms, you really do address issues that Lawyerist face, but again, dealing still with the whole person. So I’ve had a lot of personal advice that has helped me, not just
Sara Muender (32:39):
And raising your kids and everything. Yeah. Well, you’re by far one of my favorite people in lab. We call you guys Labster, and you’ve brought so much value to the community. So thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for being in lab. Thank you for all you do for the world and making it a better place and providing some really cool new ways for people to process death and grieve and get their estate plannings, estate plans done. It’s been really cool hanging out with you, and I can’t wait to see what you do next. Jolene.
Jolene Blackbourn (33:12):
Thanks Sara. I enjoyed being here.
The Lawyerist Podcast is edited by Britany Felix. Are you ready to implement the ideas we discuss here into your practice? Wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First. If you haven’t read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist.com/book. Looking for help beyond the book? Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities, are right for you. Head to Lawyerist.com/community/lab to schedule a 10-minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you.