Fresh Voices on Legal Tech with Chase Hertel

Episode Notes

Transcript

[Music]

Intro:  Web 2.0.  Innovation.  Trend.  Collaboration.  Metadata–

Got the world turning as fast as it can, hear how technology can help legally speaking, with two of the top legal technology experts, authors and lawyers, Dennis Kennedy and Tom Mighell.  Welcome to the Kennedy-Mighell Report here on the Legal Talk Network.

Dennis Kennedy:  And welcome to Episode 336 of the Kennedy-Mighell Report.  I’m Dennis Kennedy in Ann Arbor.

Tom Mighell:  And I’m Tom Mighell in Dallas.

Dennis Kennedy:  In our last episode, we interviewed Allison Johs and Jen Lee live from ABA TECHSHOW about everything from personal productivity to the tech you should learn right now to the benefits of attending legal tech conferences.  You also learned some highlights from their personal TECHSHOW presentations.  In this episode, we’re excited to bring you another guest in our new interview series that we are currently calling Fresh Voices on Legal Tech with a very special guest.

In this series, we want to showcase different and compelling perspectives on legal tech and more.  Tom, what’s all on our agenda for this episode?

Tom Mighell:  Well, Dennis, in this edition of the Kennedy-Mighell Report, we are thrilled to continue our new Fresh Voices on Legal Tech interview series with Chase Hertel of SimpleCitizen, who is well known in the world of legal innovation.  We want our Fresh Voices series to not only introduce you to terrific leaders in the legal tech scene, but also to provide you with their perspective on the things you should be paying attention to right now in Legal Tech.

And as usual, we’ll finish up with our parting shots.  That one tip website or observation that you can start to use the second that this podcast is over.  But first up, we are so pleased to welcome Chase Hertel to our Fresh Voices series.  Chase, welcome to the Kennedy-Mighell Report.

Chase Hertel:  Dennis, Tom, thanks so much for having me.  Really excited to be here.  Appreciate the opportunity.

Tom Mighell:  Before we get started, can you tell our audience a little bit more about yourself, a little bit more about SimpleCitizen?

Chase Hertel:  Sure.  So I’ll start with myself.  I’m the director and counsel for SimpleCitizen.  We are a consumer facing immigration legal technology company, think TurboTax for immigration that helps guide customers through an expert system or a questionnaire that helps fill out their immigration paperwork, i.e. USCIS forms and then connect with an attorney in our network for a review of those forms before they send them off to USCIS.

I wear a couple of hats at a SimpleCitizen.  I help direct our consumer facing business.  I also wear a company lawyer hat, really focused on company ethics and making sure we’re doing things right by our customers and also by the lawyers that we work with.  And I get to use what I like to say, the legal ethics rules, as sort of an innovation framework in my role.

Before that, I was with LegalZoom.  I helped run their attorney network and worked really heavily on regulatory reform projects there.  Before that, was the deputy director of the American Bar Association Center for Innovation.  Really focused a lot of my work there on access to justice and regulatory innovations.  And then before that, I was with two pretty high growth legal tech companies.  One also focused on the immigration space and another on personal injury and medical malpractice.

Dennis Kennedy:  It’s cool, Chase.  One of the things that I’m intrigued by the people in this series is that you are stepping up to the challenge that I felt I’ve had for a long time.  How the heck do we communicate with lawyers and others in the legal profession about technology?  Could you talk about your own approach and how you get the attention of those in the legal profession to think about new ways to use technology?

Chase Hertel:  Sure, Dennis.  My first bullet point whenever I’m talking to an attorney about technology is really focusing on technology not being this great disruptor, though there are market forces at work in law, just like there are in every other industry that we should be keenly aware of.  But really, I think of technology as sort of a great enabler for lawyers to leverage, to create delightful client experiences and new revenue streams and view technology and learning it and adopting it as really incremental improvements towards those goals, ultimately enabling new service delivery models.

Tom Mighell:  It’s funny, because when I was watching one of your talks online and this was eight, nine years ago that the video was from, you quoted one of the lines that Dennis and I use so often on the podcast, which is, what are you hiring the technology to do?  And really it’s about how can you get the technology to enable you to do stuff?  And I think that’s really an important.  I think that’s all tied in together.

Chase Hertel:  Awesome.

(00:05:07)

Tom Mighell:  So it seems from your bio, it seems like immigration technology has been a particular passion of yours.  I think going back to law school, I think you did a pitch contest where you pitched an immigration technology tool.  You’ve worked for several immigration tech companies.  What is it about immigration technology that interests you?  How did you become so passionate about it?

Chase Hertel:  Yeah, so if we have hours, I can talk to you for hours, but I know that we don’t, so I’ll give you the cliff notes.  So, at Michigan State University College of Law, I was really involved in the ReInvent Law program that Dan Katz and Renee Kanaki had built there.  And in their entrepreneurial lawyering course that I know Dennis takes part in today at MSU, we were challenged to come up with new legal service delivery models to increase access to justice.  And I come from a family of immigrants, my grandparents on both sides.  They came to the States, not when your typical white American folks came to the US.  And I grew up around the dinner table hearing these stories of what immigration was like for them and how they started their family businesses.  And I thought to myself, well, this is the practice area I’m going to focus on for this project.  And I dove feet burst into it, found all these inefficiencies, all these really hairy problems that really needed a fresh look.

And so I decided to pitch this idea that was basically a guided questionnaire that helped you get through your immigration forms with helpful examples and explanations from an attorney along the way.  And I kind of saw this as like a little video chat window that might pop up as you were trying to fill out your forms and getting them ready for the government.  Found out this was a practice area that was pretty ripe for this type of technology assistance, but also learned pretty early that there were a lot of obstacles that I needed to overcome along the way, but I ultimately have stuck with it.  I often say if there is a technology tool that can help bring lawyers and clients together, whether it’s a marketplace or even just a piece of practice management software, you’re likely to find me there, because that’s where I get the most fulfillment is, seeing technology bring clients and lawyers together to achieve a goal.

Dennis Kennedy:  Well, Chase, I know that you are recently celebrating the 10th anniversary of the ReInvent Law 2013 event that greatly influenced your own career path and those of others.  And I have to tell you that I am seriously thinking and putting in and have put in a budget request to do ReInvent Law 2023 at Michigan State.  So I might be asking for your involvement in that.  Could you talk about that event in particular and how important events and networking are in helping people learn about legal tech and helping them move toward the things they might really like to do?

Chase Hertel:  Yeah.  So, ReInvent Law 2013.  And I think 2013 was at Silicon Valley and 2014 was in New York.  These were these events that really helped me find my tribe of folks really interested in the intersection of consumer facing legal technology in the profession and also taught me how to network in such a big room like that and how to forge relationships and friendships that last.

And I think I’ll actually pull back a little bit from the events and say what I found most valuable was the social media promotion and activity that happened leading up to those events and the ability to connect with that tribe beforehand and zeroing in on people who were interested in the same types of things that I was interested in and still am and engaging with them.  And using Twitter and LinkedIn as sort of these conduits to jump over gates and have these conversations that I wouldn’t normally be able to have at that stage in my career.

And one of the things that I would just encourage anyone to do that’s interested in the legal tech space is to, one, engage with the community on social media.  It’s a very welcoming place.  Don’t worry about saying something wrong.  Don’t worry about saying something that’s “nontechnical”.  There are lots of people out there like that.  I’m not an engineer.  I’m a lawyer that just engages in building consumer facing products.  But using social media as a way to introduce yourself with the community, find those people that you’re interested in engaging with and then taking those relationships offline once you’re at a legal tech conference.

(00:10:08)

I love it when I get to talk to somebody that I’ve only talked to on Twitter.  It’s one of my favorite things to do.  And usually I’ll send out a tweet that’s like, I can’t believe I met this person in real life for the first time ever.  I feel like I’ve known them for years.

Tom Mighell:  Are there tech you recommend these days that you think that a lawyer who’s wanting to kind of get to that point?  Since we wait for Dennis to do the next ReInvent Law, where would you recommend lawyers go?

Chase Hertel:  Yeah, so one of the first places that I ever engaged with the community was ABA TECHSHOW.  I went as a student as a 2L.  Loved and learned so much through that experience.  I think Clio’s conference is probably one of the best you can go to.  You may think it’s going to be very Clio centric, and there are many tracks that are very Clio centric, but there are other tracks that are just legal innovation oriented.  So that’s definitely one I would recommend.

If you want to get into the theory of things and also sort of the big things kind of kind of coming around the corner, Stanford’s FutureLaw is a great conference, but it’s only one day, and sometimes it can feel like drinking from a fire hose.  You may leave with more questions than answers, but I love FutureLaw.

And then another one I really get a kickout of and actually really find the most fulfilling is the Legal Services Corporation’s Technology Conference.  It is a great place to see the meld of access to justice and technology on display.

Tom Mighell:  Well, we should have probably organized these questions a little better because I’m going to pivot back to immigration technology.  You’ve worked for a couple of companies.  There are several others out there.  What is your current view of immigration tech?  Where does the market stand today?  And then I have a follow up question after that.

Chase Hertel:  Yeah, so today I think we’re seeing a lot of activity in this space over the past 12, 24 months.  We’ve seen relocation management software sort of develop as its own vertical.  INSZoom was also acquired by Mitratech.  Huge acquisition in the immigration tech space.  But then we had more that followed, right?  We had Docketwise get acquired by the Affinipe (ph) Family of Companies.  LollyLaw was acquired by the Giant Paradigm.  So in terms of technology and acquisitions, there’s a lot of consolidation happening, but we’ve also seen some firms embrace building their own technologies, both for the employment based side of immigration and for the consumer based side or family based side of immigration, which I think is really encouraging too.

And then we’ve also seen a lot of capital get put into this space up until we’ve sort of seen the economic headwinds start to change.  And I’ll even bring in probably the biggest behemoth in the space altogether is the United States government.  USCIS is starting to hold roundtable discussions about opening up its API for all of these companies to work potentially with.  Really big deal when you think about how this played out about two decades ago with the IRS and TurboTax.

So, long story short here, I think we have a lot of consolidation happening.  I think we also have a lot of deal activity and economic activity.  All to say, many of these solutions are focused on improving the immigration experience, whether that through your professional service provider or for the foreign, national or consumer themselves.  So I think we’re seeing an upswell of improvement and hopefully a better immigration experience all around.

Tom Mighell:  So that leads me you’re getting to my follow up question, which is where does that leave the immigration lawyer?  Where does everything you just talk about leave the immigration lawyer who might hear you say, SimpleCitizen is like TurboTax, but for immigration, a lawyer might think, oh, well, then they won’t need any lawyers the same way that with TurboTax you don’t need your accountant anymore.  I sort of view that more as addressing the underserved that may not be served by attorneys in the first place.  But how do you respond to that reaction that maybe some attorneys might get to say, well, technology is coming from a job?

Chase Hertel:  No, I understand the reaction.  I really do.  And I’m a lawyer working to address that reaction.  And mine is that all ships rise together.  These types of technology platforms are serving a group of customers that attorneys have largely been unable to reach, whether that be for marketing, for lack of marketing budget or even the economics of serving a client at a lower price point.

(00:15:02)

And partnering with technology companies that are in this space opens up new revenue streams, right?  And helps to really attack what I call the underutilization of legal services.  We know there’s people that need help.  We just need to partner with one another and address those markets together.  We’ve got a ton of lawyers out there in the world that are underemployed and that need income.  These types of solutions are one that address that issue and also the underutilization of legal services.

Tom Mighell:  All right, amen to that.  We’ve having a great conversation with Chase Hertel of SimpleCitizen.  We got some more questions, but before we do that, let’s take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

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Dennis Kennedy:  And we are back with Chase Hertel of SimpleCitizen.  Chase, I want to take you back a couple of years to when you were at the ABA Center for Innovation and you had a really interesting, I guess, perspective point where you could see what was happening in the legal industry and in legal tech.  If you kind of think back to then and you look at now, what in legal tech actually is exciting you or seems to have the most potential or maybe was on the drawing board four or five years ago, that’s now, here, then how would those kinds of key technologies, how do you see them impacting legal education as well as law practice?

Chase Hertel:  One of the first things I would point to that really excites me and it might seem a little boring for some of the folks on the bleeding edge, but document automation software prevents so much excitement.  I don’t know anyone that went to law school to learn to fill out forms.  I know when I first got out of school and I was given sort of the suite of forms I had to fill out, I was like, “Well, I didn’t take a class about these.  I don’t know what goes in these blanks.”  So any tech that helps free up a professional service provider’s time and allows them to focus on where they can add value and focus on the more complex work that lawyers are trained to do, I’m all for.

So I’m still really excited about document automation technology, right?  And I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention large language models and GPT-4 I think the potential of the combination of those technologies is tremendous.  But I also think it’s not productive to talk about large language models yet as replacements for lawyers and allied professionals.  I think we’re pretty far from that.  I think GPT-4 and large language models have the potential to be these great augmenters, right?  So document automation technology coupled with a generative AI technology, while it may not be ready for primetime and client facing work, it is ready for using it to augment the way that you work and maybe even focus on the business of law related tasks and automating those versus legal practice.

I’ve been using GBT35 and now four to really just get pen to paper faster on little things that I do every day.  I don’t use it in anything that faces our customers and I wouldn’t use it in anything that I had to report to our legal department.  Right?  But I do use it to help me do little things faster and cheaper.

Tom Mighell:  Well, I just want to say to our audience that this is now, I think, Dennis, I may be wrong, like the fourth guest in a row who unprompted from us has said that document automation is important.

(00:20:07)

And sort of validating the things that we say on an almost regular basis here.  So I am grateful to be validated in that regard.  Let’s dive a little bit more into ChatGPT.  I know you’ve been talking about the use of artificial intelligence in immigration practice for a long time.  Before any of this was available, you were already talking about it, and we seem to be in a massive hype cycle around ChatGPT right now.  And I think just a week before we’re releasing this or GPT-4 has been released.  So it’s only going to get worse or better, whichever way you want to look at it.

Let’s talk more specifically towards immigration.  Well, this is more a broader question than I expected.  When we talk about immigration law practice pro bono or access to justice generally, how do you see a tool like ChatGPT coming in and altering or disrupting or improving those areas?

Chase Hertel:  Maybe I’ll go 50,000 feet in zoom and I see a lot of promise and these types of tools.  I also see a lot of areas where we need to exercise caution.  I think though this talk of replacement like I talked about a little earlier is a little misguided.  I think GPT-4 specifically and the ways that I’ve played with it now and it’s been limited up until now.  I do see its promise in making us better and more efficient at what we do.  Do I see it replacing lawyers?  Again, no.  But I do see these technologies becoming a part of what is considered competent.  Like once these technologies are more fully developed, the lawyer are using a large language model to assist them with research, with using it to assist them with document automation is going to be the lawyer that is likely ahead of their peers.

And when more and more people start to use this technology, it becomes standard operating procedure, and then a part of what we consider a technology competent lawyer would do and know about.  So I think we’re going to get there whether we like it or not.  I mean, on the other side of the coin, AI is never going to be able to — well, I shouldn’t speak so — I am a lawyer.  I shouldn’t speak so emphatically.  But I’ll own the never statement.  It’s not going to ever be creative.

So technologies like this, they may dish up case law to you, but they don’t form the argument.  They may push forward first draft of a document, but you’re still going to still have to advocate for it, right?  And AI is not going to be able to counsel clients the way lawyers can do that.  I mean, we were counsel — we have a counsel hat that we have to wear too.  So molding all of those things together, I think it’s going to make your technical work easier but your strategy work more pointed and efficient.  On the Access to Justice applications for artificial intelligence and large language models and generative AI, I see tons of promise here in the near term, more focused on the transactional practice areas.  Immigration, bankruptcy, landlord tenant, real estate, because of these technologies’ ability to surface helpful information, especially in a limited corpus of information is immensely helpful.  And there are so many people who just need to be guided to the right legal information so they can make a decision.  Whether or not they need a lawyer or not is their choice.

Dennis Kennedy:  That’s great.  So I think that one of the things that that lawyers — I always find with lawyers is they say, it feels like there’s a zillion technologies that I need to know or that I have to learn and I’m paralyzed.  I don’t know how to decide.  And that’s where I think that the jobs to be done, framework is really helpful because people might say, I need to drop everything I’m doing and just learn GPT-4 now, I’m not really sure how many people that make sense for.  But my question for you is, do you feel these days, there’s one or two technologies that you find yourself recommending that people really focus on and learn right now?  And then how do you usually suggest that people get started learning either learning a new technology or going much deeper into the technology?

Chase Hertel:  So I’ve got three that come to mind.  One I’ll dive deeper into.

(00:25:00)

The first is really leveraging CRMs, customer relationship management technology to manage your pipeline of customers of clients who are reaching out to you for help, and being responsive to those inquiries.  That’s what CRM software is all about.  In a previous role or a business development hat, I can’t tell you how often my CRM tools made me look like a rock star.  Even though it was just reminding me it’s been two weeks since you followed up with this potential customer.  Lawyers can do the same thing.  I’m a big fan of responsiveness, so I don’t know some folks will probably tell you, me recommending CRM software to folks is sort of expected.

The other piece of technology here that I’d point to and I talked about earlier is document automation tools, right?  There are a lot on the market that can do a lot of really cool things.  They can even productize your services and are a way for a traditional firm to reach down into that latent legal market and help increase access to justice and then I’m going to be really boring about my third one.  And it’s really probably the tech tool that every lawyer I know uses every day and it’s Microsoft Word.

And when I say I’m recommending Microsoft Word to the audience, I’m saying right now you’re probably using 10 to 15% of its core capabilities.  That’s like driving a Lamborghini around the neighborhood 20 miles an hour.  And with Microsoft Word, you can actually do a lot of document automation work with just an Office 365 subscription and Word and maybe a little Power BI if you want to get fancy.  But spend an hour a week empower you and your staff to learn a new capability of Microsoft Word.  By the end of the year, Microsoft Word is going to be a core competency and a superpower for you and your firm.

Tom Mighell:  And there are so many places where you can go get that content on the Internet.  I mean, YouTube is a huge place for great content, but the ABAs got a lot of good content, other places Microsoft got its own good content, but all well within reach.  So here’s an admission that I will make on behalf of Dennis and I, which is that we have gotten to the point where we’re the, I think, Dennis is the older man on the lawn, but I am saying get off my lawn but I am reaching that point too.  And we tend to be more pessimistic than we probably should about lawyers using technology to better serve their clients.

And so, with our guests, we want to inject a whole array of optimism to that.  So let’s turn that around a little bit and say looking toward the future, what gives you optimism for the use of technology in the legal profession and the legal system?  What are you seeing right now that gives old fogies like us some hope that lawyers are going to catch on?

Chase Hertel:  In a single word, I’d say the pandemic.  I thought it was astounding and incredibly encouraging to watch the entire profession pivot.  And I’m not just talking about lawyers.  We saw judges do it, we saw other members of the courts have to pivot to — the court system has to pivot and use technology in ways that we had never really been forced to do.  And we did it.  And the sky didn’t fall and people were able to experience the rule of law in the way that it’s intended to be experienced where you are, right?

So I was super happy and super excited to see so many members of the legal profession just adopt virtual proceedings and meetings as a part of their day to day.  I was especially happy to see very high-volume court systems.  Adopt technology to help keep their dockets moving.  I mean, landlord tenant cases were being done remotely.  People were keeping roofs over their heads just because they could log on to Zoom.  People were working out custody battles and hairy family court matters over Zoom and they were coming together because we were meeting our customers and the public where they are.  So I was just, again, astounded and incredibly encouraged by what we were able to do.  I know that there have been some — there’s some regression in many of these areas.

(00:30:04)

And I’m extremely sensitive to the idea that the Zoom courts weren’t necessarily fair for all parties.  But it was I think there’s improvement that we could make there.  We tried something, right?  It worked.  We collected some feedback let’s iterate and try it again.  So I have a ton of hope for the future with respect to the legal profession and industry continuing to adopt as it needs to.

Tom Mighell:  And that’s kind of what I’ve been worried about is, is that we don’t continue to require an additional pandemic in order to keep the profession moving forward.  We need to figure out a way to not just get — to sit on our laurels and to actually keep moving forward.  But that’s what you guys in the innovation space are all about.  So we have a few more questions for Chase but before we do that, let’s take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

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Dennis Kennedy:  And now let’s get back to the Kennedy-Mighell Report.  I’m Dennis Kennedy.

Tom Mighell:  And I’m Tom Mighell.  And we are joined by our special guest Chase Hertel of SimpleCitizen.  Chase, we’ve got time for just a few more questions.  The first question is kind of what we call our best advice question.  And I’m going to give you the choice.  Can you tell us either what’s the best advice you’ve ever been given around legal technology or what is the best advice you would like to leave our listeners with or you can do both if you want.

Chase Hertel:  So best advice I’ve ever been given with respect to technology is to start — with respect to adoption, start small.  Moonshots rarely workout.  So if you focus on incremental improvement, in a very short amount of time, you can be well ahead of your competition who isn’t engaging in the same type of activity.  The advice that I would give is to follow the same advice I was given and just engage in continuous learning.  There’s just so much that can be done if you start to aggregate 20 minutes here, 15 minutes there, 30 minutes there to deliver legal services better, faster, more affordably, with technology and address the justice gap.

Dennis Kennedy:  So my last question is, who are the fresh voices in legal tech that you would like to single at as part of our fresh voices series?  Like who are your peers who you really like learning from and you think other people should hear more of?

Chase Hertel:  I learn daily from Natalie Knowlton.  She is a regulatory reform guru.  I learned from her quite honestly through text message on a daily basis.  I also learned from many folks that came before me.  So I wouldn’t necessarily call this person a fresh voice.  But the mind behind VisaNow which is now envoy global is the man by the name of Bob Meltzer.  When you talk about being responsive and creating delightful customer experiences, he’s somebody that has his head wrapped around the sales and marketing function and operations of organizations like no one I’ve ever met when he’s been doing unique legal service delivery models before they were even a thing that we talked about.

(00:35:02)

Another I think a fresh voice that more people should hear from is probably Rohan Pavuluri from Upsolve.  His ongoing battle to allow legal advice to be delivered by folks who are not lawyers in the State of New York is a message everyone needs to hear.  And we all need to wrap our heads around like the First Amendment implications of what he’s working on.  I think it will greatly open the eyes of listeners to sort of — well, why aren’t some of our regulatory rules and constraints fair?  I think Rohan’s case really demonstrates why they’re not some cases.

Tom Mighell:  We’ll Chase, we want to thank you for being a guest on the podcast.  I feel listening to you that if either Dennis or I had to miss a podcast that you could slot right into one of our positions, and we would not miss a beat.

Chase Hertel:  Thanks, guys, I appreciate it.

Tom Mighell:  Can you tell us where people can learn more about SimpleCitizen or how they could reach out to you if they want to talk to you more?

Chase Hertel:  You can find SimpleCitizen at simplecitizen.com.  You can follow us on Twitter simplecitizen_us.  I’m easily found on Twitter at chase_hertel H-E-R-T-E-L or feel free to shoot me an email.  Folks can find it on my LinkedIn page.

Dennis Kennedy:  Hey, thanks so much Chase.  You’re fantastic guest, great information, great advice for our listeners.  Now it’s time for our parting shots, that one tip website or observation you can use the second this podcast ends.  Chase, take it away.

Chase Hertel:  Two things, continuous improvement.  Don’t ever stop learning, just sort of a method that’s been baked into me since the beginning of my career journey.  The other two websites I would point everyone to IAALS, the Institute for the Advancement of the American Legal Systems unlocking legal regulation dashboard.  It’s a huge source of information about what’s happening with legal technology and regulatory reform efforts.  The other one is the legal innovation regulatory survey done by the American Bar Association Center for Innovation.  It tracks those efforts as well.  And that’s sort of my — those are my recommendations in a nutshell.

Tom Mighell:  All right, good parting shots.  My parting shot violates the rule of parting shots, which is I usually say it should be something you can use the second this podcast ends.  But you will not be able to use this the second that this podcast ends and that is Copilot by Microsoft.  We are starting to realize when you’ve seen the news that Microsoft has put ChatGPT into Bing it’s like, yeah, that’s great but so what?  Really what the end game has been for Microsoft is to bake ChatGPT and Generative AI into its Microsoft Office product and that’s what Copilot is going to do.  Imagine being able to use all the function within ChatGPT within Word itself.  Imagine taking a Word document and saying, “Can you create a PowerPoint presentation with this Word document?  Taking a big report that you did in an Excel spreadsheet and asking Copilot to create lots of nice charts and graphs and make it into something that people can understand.  This is really Microsoft’s end game.  It’s going to be a while before it gets there, but it is coming.  So we’ll put a link in the show notes to a very quick video that Microsoft put out on what you can expect Copilot to do, but I’m excited so give it a look.

Dennis Kennedy:  It is interesting to look forward with that because I’ve been thinking about the editor tool and how it gives — you get things like what’s the reading level and other things like that.  And I’m intrigued by the GPT approach where we could start with that to say, put this into like a fifth grade reading level and I think those tools will be really interesting, especially in access to justice but in many other places.

So my parting shots are which would be continuing theme for a while here but please don’t forget about what happened at Michigan State back in February.  We’re back in class, but it’s been difficult, it’s been challenging.  And I’d say remember to connect with the people you care about in your communities.  And then I’m writing a new column for Legaltech Hub on law department innovation.  And my recent article is called Innovation Ideas:  Quantity, Quality, and ChatGPT.  And I took the approach of saying what can we use ChatGPT-4 in brainstorming.  And lawyers tended not to be very comfortable with generating a lot of ideas.  So the premise of the article which people have really responded well to is to say what if we use ChetGPT to just generate a whole bunch of articles at the start of the process, and let lawyers do the things they’re more comfortable with, which is to kind of sift through organize and critique things to come up with the next level of ideas.

(00:40:08)

So I recommend the article, like I said, it’s been a great response to it and I always appreciate feedback.

Tom Mighell:  And so that wraps it up for this edition of the Kennedy-Mighell Report.  Thanks for joining us on the podcast.  You can find show notes for this episode on the Legal Talk Network’s page for the show.  If you like what you hear, please subscribe to our podcast in iTunes on the Legal Talk Network site or within your favorite podcast app.  If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can always find us on LinkedIn, you can find us on Twitter and don’t forget we still like, we’re going to eventually get back to regular episodes where we can answer your questions.  We love Segment B questions.  We’ve got a voicemail for that.  That voicemail ID Number is 720-441-6820.  So until the next podcast, I’m Tom Mighell.

Dennis Kennedy:  And I’m Dennis Kennedy and you’ve been listening to the Kennedy-Mighell Report, a podcast on Legal Technology with an internet focus.  If you like what you heard today, please rate us on Apple podcast and we’ll see you next time for another episode of the Kennedy-Mighell Report on the Legal Talk Network.

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Outro:  Thanks for listening to the Kennedy-Mighell Report.  Check out Dennis and Tom’s book, The Lawyer’s Guide to Collaboration Tools and Technologies:  Smart Ways to Work Together from ABA Books or Amazon.  And join us every other week for another edition of the Kennedy-Mighell Report only on the Legal Talk Network.

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