EP 913- Fostering Strong Team Relationships

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Katie St. John:

Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I am Katie St. John, and today I’m joined by my colleague, Mary Simon, and my paralegal, Brittany. As most of you know, I am a newer attorney to the Simon Law Firm. And because of that, I have recently had to work on building my team and in doing that, Brittany and I have spent a lot of time together. So today we’re going to discuss how to the do’s and don’ts of building strong relationships between the attorneys and the rest of the members of your team. And I know Mary will have some great points to add. So Brittany, without further ado, if you could please briefly introduce yourself for our listeners.

Brittany Tenis:

I am Brittany Tenis. I have been with the firm for a little over a year now. I have been in the paralegal field for 10 years. I’ve worked defense and plaintiff’s side. Plaintiff’s side is 100% my forte. You will not get me back on the defense side. One year was enough. So I’ve landed here and I am hopeful this is my home.

Katie St. John:

I know that I have been so fortunate to have you, especially as I transition to the Simon Law Firm, but we also have two other attorneys on our smaller team when that’s Johnny and Jared. Tell us who else our members of the team are.

Brittany Tenis:

We have Justice and Shruthi. Both are, at this point, legal admin assistants. Initially, they kind of started as medical clerks and they’ve kind of segued into more of assistant role and kind of helping me do the day-to-day things, phone calls and things like that. So we can kind of focus on the not so much bigger things in cases, but the things that need to take a front seat versus me ordering medical records and reviewing medical records right as they come in, they’re kind of helping with that as well.

Mary Simon:

And I think one of the important reasons why to have this conversation is working collaboratively with a team or in a group environment when there’s a million and one tasks and let’s say one or two people or four people, the task number far outweighs the amount of people who are actually being able to accomplish them. No one teaches you how to work collaboratively. I mean, that’s not something I was taught in law school. I guess learn by example in your life in situations when you’ve had to rely on team members. It’s something that I think all law firms have to figure out at some point, especially plaintiff’s firms, where the success of your team largely depends upon how well you can work collaboratively and efficiently. And everybody has a different working style. Everyone has a different personality. When people have kids, everyone has different times that they can work.

I mean, there are so many factors that are individualized, but all those individuals have to come together in a cohesive way to work up a client’s case. So I think that this conversation probably much overdue, but it’ll be beneficial not only for us to have this conversation, but also hopefully firms, anyone listening to this maybe take away some tips on things that we’ve learned that work or learn the hard way didn’t work, and then we have had to pivot and make changes.

Katie St. John:

So Brittany, one thing I wanted to ask you, and I briefly previewed this, is that you work, there’s three of us that you work for, and we all have different personalities, right? How do you learn the different personalities for the attorneys that you’re working for? What ways do you go about figuring out the best way to communicate with a different attorney?

Brittany Tenis:

I think it’s trial and error, for sure. So starting off, coming from a smaller firm, we were not trial-based. So I had to learn pretty quickly once I started here that these cases were here for the long haul, we’re prepping for trial day in and day out. So it was a whole different mindset. And then working with Johnny, he’s going 1,001 different directions, but he has the end. So he knows where he’s going with it. So trying to make sure I’m asking the questions for me to know what the end piece is so I can get to that point with him also. So being very direct with him to get the answers that I need to be able to work efficiently was something that I had to learn very quickly. You and Jared are pretty much go with the flow, but you’re a little bit more direct with what you’re asking me to do.

So there’s not a lot of guesswork and not a lot I have to do to figure out what needs to be done.

Katie St. John:

And I’m assuming that’s just something that comes with some time. Is that fair?

Brittany Tenis:

Oh, yes.

Katie St. John:

Okay. I know that something I tried to do whenever I would have a new paralegal join my team at any place I’ve ever worked at is just be very upfront and honest about, okay, what is your communication preference? How do you like to do things? I’ve worked with paralegals who have been doing this longer than I have, and I understand the value that I can learn so much from them because they’ve been doing this so much longer and they’ve seen more things play out. So I just try to be very blunt and say, look, how do you prefer to work? What’s your communication style? Is that something that you find is helpful or do you just think time tells more?

Brittany Tenis:

I mean, I think it’s a little bit of both. I do think you and I are having this right now. I need to get out of the inbox to be able to do more work. So it’s easier if you just come to me directly and say, “This is what needs to be done, that way I can get to it. ” Versus right now, things could be sitting in the inbox because I’m trying to get to other things. It’s hard. It’s day by day. Definitely need to be direct with what you are needing, I guess.

Mary Simon:

We all know when everyone is working at maximum capacity to meet 6,000 deadlines in a very short time period. And something that I have found with my paralegal, Caitlin, is that something that works well for us is I’ll send one email at the top of the week that maybe is like, or sometimes on a Sunday that will say, “I’m about to send you 30 emails. These are the three things that are the first three things to work on. ” And then she also works for multiple attorneys, so she’ll keep me in the loop of what of those things might even have to find their way in between those three. But it is like, I don’t know at what point, because you said it’s kind of both, it’s kind of time, it’s kind of a direct communication thing, but I couldn’t tell you at what point.

I can’t tell you at one point when the relationship changes into, “I know that she knows that I know. ” And once you have that locked in, you don’t want to stop working with that person because it took so long to get here to be able to do that. Yeah.

Katie St. John:

I think something that I’ve been able to gather throughout my years as an attorney is that it can take time. And I think with time comes new experiences and then you continue to learn. But that is why I will say, when I met Brittany, I was like, “I’m so excited to be here. This is how I work. I’m somebody that I’m going to jump in. I’m going to figure this stuff out for myself. I don’t want to step on your toes. I don’t want it to seem like I’m not going to take suggestions from you. ” So if there’s a way that you want to do this at this firm, considering she’s been working here longer than I have, please tell me and please know that I can adjust. I can be flexible. And I feel like if I just in the past, I mean, maybe Brittany will say it’s not working that great, but I think it just kind of cuts through some of that.

You just level with people because we all have the same goal. And like you said, when we’re working at maximum capacity, it can be overwhelming or stressful. But if we both know that at the end of the day, we’re working towards the same thing, it’s just helpful. Look, this is where I’ll meet you at and let’s figure out how we’re going to do this. I don’t know. Brittany, I mean, thoughts?

Brittany Tenis:

I mean, I agree. And I also think we, as a whole, even with you joining, we’re all trying to work on our communication skills on where we’re at on each cases. They’re divided right now between attorneys. So all cases are important. There’s no doubt about that, but some are taking more priority than others because we’re at different stages of these cases. So whereas I might need to do this for this case, this other case is probably going to have to wait because of that. And that’s where our communication’s coming into play because I can be very upfront with all three of you and say, “Hey, this is not getting done today. It’s probably not getting done this week because these things need to happen first.” So I feel like we have that going for our team to where we can have this, we do have a good set of communication right now.

Mary Simon:

What is one thing that the lawyers working with you or you working with them is helpful to you? One thing that they do that you find

Brittany Tenis:

Beneficial? I think probably just making sure the tasks that they want prioritized is known.That’s huge. I don’t want you to assume that I’m working on the thing that you want me to be working on if that communication hasn’t happened. So

Katie St. John:

You’re not a mind reader? No.

Brittany Tenis:

No, not at all. And Johnny will be the first to-

Mary Simon:

I think I’ve literally told Caitlin she does read my mind and- Johnny,

Brittany Tenis:

He’ll come in randomly and he’s like, “I think I emailed you. ” But then in the same sentence, he’ll say, “But I could be wrong. Maybe I didn’t email you. ” Did we have this conversation?

Mary Simon:

Oh no, I really am like my brother. I really, really am.

Brittany Tenis:

So it’ll be one of those things where he’s like, “We’re all going a thousand miles a minute and we think that we’ve had this conversation and it’s really important that this thing happens, but then it’s like, sorry, you never told me. ” So now I can make it a priority, but up until then, I just like the direct communication. I want to know what your priorities are for the week and then I can adjust what I thought was a priority.

Mary Simon:

Do you guys like to be micromanaged?

Brittany Tenis:

No.

Mary Simon:

No. What do you consider to be something that’s micromanaging?

Katie St. John:

Wait, do you like to be micromanaged?

Mary Simon:

No.

Katie St. John:

Okay. Go ahead.

Mary Simon:

But I didn’t want to assume Rum talking about creating really great, successful with other people working on the team. So everyone is as welcome to their own opinion on any topic. So okay, we all hate being micromanaged. So what is something that you think is micromanaging?

Katie St. John:

Brittany and I have been working together for three months now, and I can tell you that I trust the work that she puts in because I’ve seen her work product. And so when you learn to trust and when you delegate a task or you say, “You’re going to complete this part of the task, I’m going to complete this part,” and you truly let that person do their part of the task, then I think that’s when you, I mean, especially as an attorney, you start to be able to not micromanage and say, “I trust Brittany. I know she does good work. I know she cares about these cases, so I’m going to let her get the task done in a way that works for her.” I think micromanaging gets to be a point whenever you are saying, “This is your task and this is how I want you to do it.

” Because we all, like I said, we’re all trying to reach the same goal, but the way I might do it might be different than the way you do it, Mary, and the way that Brittany does it might be also different. But if we’re all getting to the same goal, it’s okay because we’re all individual people and we all don’t think the same. So that’s where I feel like it’s micromanaging when you say, “This is what you need to do and these are the steps you have to take to get there.” I try not to do that. And if she says, “Okay, Katie, I don’t know how to do that, what would you suggest?” I’ll give her suggestions, but I always say, “Do whatever works best for you. Let me know if you have questions.”

Mary Simon:

And I even think as a lawyer, it takes time to, because we all worked and work for other attorneys too. I mean, I work on cases with my dad and it took me … Probably not that … He said it directly to me. I don’t remember at what point working with him. And even the lawyer who I worked with before when she was here, before she joined as a partner at another law firm, we had conversations where almost I had to know that they had confidence in me to just do it. So even from a … It makes sense to me because there are some times in my head where sometimes there isn’t a direct … Or sometimes there are 10 ways to get from A to B. And so even if a lawyer who I’m working with on a case, or I’ll even use my dad as an example, if he says, “Hey, I need this to be done in the case.” And whether it’s a deposition that needs to get taken or whatever, I no longer, where maybe in the first six months working directly with him on a case, I might say, “Well, is it okay if I reach out to this person in order to ask this question to get to the … ” And he kind of would just be like, “Just make a decision and do it and talk about being direct.” He literally was like, “I can see on his face and I can be a mind reader sometimes with him.

I can see on his face he doesn’t want you talk to me about that task anymore.

He wants to say it and it’s done.” And so that to me is the opposite of micromanaging. Now, I’m not telling you every single time that I can execute in the way that he might do it on a level of just having more experience, but he has no interest in telling me to do something and then checking in with me the next day or the next day. If I have to come back to him with questions, we are reengaging in the entire assignment if that’s happening. So in that way over time, and of course now I don’t need that, I wouldn’t even ask those questions. And if I did, I wouldn’t even ask him. I’d ask someone else, which is another learning style, but that to me is the opposite of micromanaging where he just will say it and say, “I don’t just get it done,” type thing.

And maybe the cornerstone of not micromanaging is trust because I can think of times in my head where I’ll send Caitlin something and say, “Save this where it makes sense.” And that’s all I say because I just know

Announcer:

That

Mary Simon:

Eight months from now I’m going to say, “Where’s that thing that I said about the thing?” And she’ll be like, “Oh yeah, it’s in … ” So there’s that aspect of it. But the flip side is, I think to get there, you do have to have some understanding of what the direction is initially. So I would not anticipate or I would not expect me to do that the first day that she and I save this where it makes sense, I’d sit down and say, “This is how I like files to be organized. I think this makes sense. If you have an idea to make it better, throw it in there and we’ll figure it out. ” But then you get to the point of save it where it makes sense.

Katie St. John:

Yeah.

Brittany Tenis:

I don’t think there’s really much micromanaging going on in our-

Katie St. John:

And if there is, it’s not me.

Brittany Tenis:

Yeah. So maybe my first three to six months starting here, there was a little bit, but I think that comes with the trust. That comes with figuring out that I’m just not some Joe Blow off the side of the street, acting like I have a degree and can do the job. But now I feel like I have the freedom to, Johnny’s out of town, I’m going to email OC back right now and say, “This does not work for us.” Or, “This is the update that you’re asking because I can do that. I have the ability to give the update that’s being requested and I don’t need to be told to do that. “

Announcer:

Same

Brittany Tenis:

With the calendar entries. Johnny was very clear when I started. I don’t want to think about it. If it’s open, schedule it. Okay, great. That’s all I needed you to say because now I’m not going to ask you about the calendar.

Katie St. John:

And that’s something that I love that when I started working here and working with you, it helps because things can just get scheduled so much faster, so things just start moving. So I don’t know if I ever told you that, but I agree with Johnny on that. So keep that up. So that’s great.

Mary Simon:

While we’re at it, let me tell you three other things that I really like for the team.

Katie St. John:

That’s actually an interesting point, Mary, because I think that when you’re building strong relationships with a team, something that maybe attorneys are not naturally great at doing is making sure that you are, you kind of touched on this, the confidence in yourself that you’re doing the task right, but sometimes I think that comes with just having the positive reinforcements when they do a really good job and they’re putting in the hours. Brittany, you just recently completed your first trial with Johnny and Jared. Yes.

Mary Simon:

Snaps for Brittany.

Katie St. John:

And I know it wasn’t my case, but I came in and I helped do jury selection with them and I knew Brittany was a little bit nervous, but I just told her, I’m like, “Just trust yourself. Johnny and Jared, trials can be stressful, but trust yourself, you know what you’re doing and if you need anything, let me know. ” And Brittany did great. I mean, Johnny and Jared, it was seamless. She handled all the exhibits amazingly. She was there, had what they needed when they needed it. And now, look at you now. It’s all done and you survive. I could

Brittany Tenis:

Breathe again.You’re not working the rest of the week. You’re going to sit right next to me and make sure I do not mess this up.

Katie St. John:

But so what I was getting at is though it’s important to say to your team, “Hey, that was a really great job. Thank you so much for doing that. I noticed that. I appreciate that. ” And I think that when we get in the thick of things, sometimes it’s not like the first thing that comes to your mind, but I try to go out of my way to provide that kind of encouragement to my team, members, and even other attorneys when they’re helpful.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. And I think it makes a massive difference and something that I think that we have improved on as a firm in the last couple years, especially of including the team at the end of a trial, if there’s a celebratory moment for the client, and that doesn’t have to … And I’m not trying to say in a way that’s like, “Oh, verdict and we all need to go out and celebrate.” I’m not even talking about just if there’s any moment where so much work has gone into accomplish this task for a client and that gets accomplished, it is never just the lawyer. I’ll give a shout out to my dad setting that example of really going out of his way to try to include everyone who’s included. But when there was an opportunity to do that, we invited the whole team, the staff that worked on the case, and that to me, and I got really positive feedback from that.

And I just can’t imagine paralegal and support staff and y’all work on the case probably more at some points than the attorneys do. So it just, of course it would make sense to include everyone in those moments. And I even heard from someone who was working at the office, it was really fun to go to that because all I’ve been doing on this is putting the outlines together or something. So that individual will know literally every question that’s asked in the case. And they might not go sit in trial every day, maybe come up one or two days or whatever it is, whatever scheduling allows, it just feels important to do that. And the flip side of that, of course, which is the not so fun part of collaborative working relationships is when something goes wrong. We work in an environment where we try our absolute best not to make mistakes and then a mistake is made at whatever point in the case it is.

When someone makes a mistake on the team, I do firmly believe that it falls on the attorney’s shoulders as the leader of the team on the case, but I know from my paralegal, Caitlin and I, we address it pretty quickly and pretty directly just to keep working through it. I think that if you have made a mistake and you’re on a team where you don’t … And Brittany, I’ll let you speak to this. If it’s something where you find yourself thinking, “Oh, I don’t know how to bring this to the attorney,” at least going to someone else on the team that you do feel comfortable bringing it to is probably the most beneficial way, because I think the quicker you address it and get on the other side of it, it might be kind of a hectic 20 minutes or whatever it is, but grand scheme, that’s going to happen.

Brittany Tenis:

Right. I mean, I don’t know. I’ve gone to no doubt, Johnny and Jared, a few times where I’m just like, “I think I’ve royally F’ed this up.”

Mary Simon:

And they’ll

Brittany Tenis:

Just be like, “Okay, well, let’s fix it. Let’s figure out what we need to do. ” So I think being direct at that point, I mean, I will 100% own up to whatever mistake that I believed I’ve done and either they’re going to say, “It’s really not as bad as you’re making it out to be, or we’ll just do this. We’ll fix it this way, or let’s just refile this. ” There’s not anything that I think you could mess up that badly that cannot be correct. Yeah. It cannot be not correct. So I think as long as you’re direct, and I can tell you that the attorneys that I work for will 100% prefer you to come to them immediately and be 100% direct with them so we can get the problem corrected.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. And everyone’s been in that situation before and it’s just like just how you said, no matter what it is, if something happened, something happened. So at that point you just say, “Okay, this happened. Now let’s figure out what steps we need to take together.” Another aspect of working in a collaborative team, especially at times of trial, I mean, it’s so funny because I can sit here and think about all the great ways that we can talk about things that are so beneficial and then you go to trial, like clear communication and setting a priority list and Brittany’s not a mind reader. And then for some reason when the attorney’s in court about to grab their outline to go ask a witness questions, in my head I’m like, “My paralegal is my mind reader. I don’t know where I put that outline. I’m about to stand up.

She better have the exhibits ready.” I mean, all of those things just filter out of my brain. And for that snap moment, I’m just like, “Where is this? Oh, I don’t know where I put it. Do you know where I put it? ” And then in my head, I probably put it in my folder. And yes, I’m speaking of a real experience I had where I put my own outline in my folder and I’m giving Caitlin death glare of where is it, but I know that that’s a momentary thing that I’m going to talk to her about afterwards when of course I go back to my bag that I put it in that I went to get it after the witness got off the stand. But those moments of tension are inevitable in such a fast-paced high stakes environment that we work in. And it’s really nice to work with someone who you feel comfortable enough to be like, “We’re going to have this moment of what feels like really tense, a really tense moment, but then it will pass and we’ll move on.

” But you can’t do that with everyone. I also think that that goes to just building trust over time.

Brittany Tenis:

Absolutely.

Katie St. John:

And I think, I mean, as professionals, you have to be able to know when … I mean, there is a possibility that either the attorney you’re working with or the paralegal you’re working with might not just be the best fit.

Mary Simon:

Yeah.

Katie St. John:

I mean, that happens, but it is such a close relationship, at least in my experience with attorney and paralegal, that’s like right hand and left hand. And so sometimes it’s just not a great fit. And so I think that that’s important just for anybody. When you’re a working professional, you’ve got to be comfortable with the people that you’re working with in any sort of team environment. And so not to say that you got to call it quits if you feel like it’s not a great fit, but being able to be direct and have the conversations about what’s working and what’s not. But we kind of talked about trial and you brought up that story, Mary. But Brittany, so your first trial, what was your favorite part?

Mary Simon:

Any death glares from the lawyers? I’m just

Katie St. John:

Kidding. What was your favorite part?

Brittany Tenis:

I think probably just being there for the first time. I love all our cases, but this case was different and unexpected and it was a good feeling once we got the case resolved. Just being able to see the jurors and what they’re thinking, even though some of them were sleeping. I was like, “How are you sleeping through this? ” I’m like counting how many times the one person nods off. I’m like, “This is what I’m doing right now.” But I mean, overall it was a really good experience and it wasn’t a five-week trial for my first trial because I probably would’ve lost it because just a one-week trial. I was like, “How am I going to do all this? How am I going to mentally prepare for my first trial when I’ve never done this before?” Caitlin prepped me quite a bit, but it was just fun.

I enjoyed it.

Katie St. John:

So you had crucial role in that trial I just saw from observing kind of … I mean, you were the rock for the clients, for the family, and they had lost their son. The mom had lost her son and he had a sister, and so you were kind of their rock. What was that like for you?

Brittany Tenis:

I mean, you have to kind of shut off at some point, but when they take the stand, you are also trying to remain professional, but also empathetic at the same time. So you’re writing a fine line, you’re trying to make sure you’re there and being supportive for them, but also you’re also like, “Man, this really sucks.This shouldn’t have happened type thing.” So it was good to get them to know them on a more personal level. Even though you’ve had this case, you’ve been working this case up, it’s different when you’re in person with them in the thick of it for a few days, eight to 12 hours each day, making sure they’re fed, making sure they’re having their mental breaks, checking in. There were things that were like, “Hey, you might not want to be in the courtroom for this, that, or the other. Let’s go stand out here for a little while while we get through this stuff.

What can I do for you? ” type thing. And she had a really great support system, which was awesome. Some families don’t have that. So I was very thankful that she also had her sisters there during this time and her daughter was there. So it’s kind of nice to put a real face with the case.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. And it’s equally important to note that that doesn’t happen without a team effort. I mean, no attorney is going to have anyone on their team spend that much time with client if there’s not rapport and trust built

Announcer:

Within

Mary Simon:

The team. It just won’t happen. And it also, I have to say that it’s also funny. I had me with my outline giving Caitlin death Glare and then also another trial that my dad was in that I went to watch. Katie were participating in this trial as well. I remember he had some big board that he had put together with Caitlin and I swear the guy almost hit four people in the head with it when he was trying to swing it around and write on it and bring it up front. And it’s just funny because you’re in the zone. As the lawyer, you’re just in the zone. You have one mission, right? It’s to get the board in front of the jury, grab the outline. That’s the only thing on my mind. No one else exists, just me and the jurors, but you don’t realize that you’re swinging a board around or trying to crawl on the ground.

And you have to be on a team that you trust will be there to have you get the board in front of the jurors or get the flip chart spelling right. And you don’t realize how much work goes on in the background to just get to that one moment that you need to do in a trial. But I also think something that could be helpful for listeners is just kind of like a rapid fire. Definitely I’m putting you on the spot, Brittany, but what are your … And Katie, you too. You should jump in here too. What are your best five pieces of advice for any attorney or any person working at a law firm, best pieces of advice, top five for creating a strong long-term relationship with either an attorney or a paralegal?

Katie St. John:

We can do this collaboratively. Brittany, the two of us can, we can come up with five. Oh,

Mary Simon:

That makes sense.

Katie St. John:

Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Collaboration is key here.

Katie St. John:

See? Wow.

Mary Simon:

I know. Meant to do that.

Katie St. John:

I did. So I think that one thing that’s super important, I’m doing number one, is to make sure you are willing to be in that team environment and work collaboratively together. You have to have the intention to do that before you start anything, knowing like, “Hey, I’m going to get some feedback from somebody else on this certain task.” So I think that that is one. Brittany?

Brittany Tenis:

Checking in. You have to check in daily, and I feel like all of you guys do pretty well with that. Also, my facial expressions, you could probably read, read me like a book. So you’re going to know if I am in the thick of something and just absolutely dying and at my wit’s end, you’re going to know just to either hand it to me on a sticky or walk away. So I think just having that check-in to make sure things are going smoothly or all of you, all three of you have come in. “Do I need to do something for you? What can I help? No, please just let me handle this and get through this moment.

Katie St. John:

“So we have, for number two, making sure you’re doing your check-ins with your team. I mean, I think we’ve really hammered this home, but trust, you have to trust the people that you’re Working with, avoid micromanaging. And when you delegate a task to a member of your team, and I will say that delegation isn’t just one way. I mean, there have been times, like Brittany just mentioned, where I’ll come into her and say, “This has happened.” I’m like, “What can I do to help you? ” And she’ll say, “You know what? There’s this little small issue. Can you just handle this? ” Because truthfully, I don’t know why the world works this way, but sometimes if they get a call from the attorney on the file and they say, “Maybe you get a quicker response,” it’s not foolproof. So I’m like, “Let me just do that.

I’ll take five seconds and let me do that. ” So delegation goes both ways. So I think that the trust kind of flows into the delegation. That’s three.

Brittany Tenis:

I don’t know. Maybe this flows around with everything else we said, but building the rapport with your team. So I don’t feel like we have just a strictly professional team. Everybody knows- Well,

Katie St. John:

We have a professional team, but you mean like-

Brittany Tenis:

Right. We can talk about our family. So we all know that our kids are crazy. We all know that they drive us crazy.

We all know that we’re going 1100 different directions when we’re outside of work. We all know kids are doing sports and things like that. So I think we have that relationship down to where it’s not just you come to work and that’s all you’re known for. We know you’re a mom. We know you’re a dad. Work is priority, but your home life is number one. So I think we’ve all have that down pat to where we may be talking in the evenings and things like that, but we all respect each other’s time outside of work. So I think that also helps.

Katie St. John:

That is nice. I mean, that’s something that’s so fun coming to work here, being on a team with other people who have small children. There are times where I will call Brittany and it’ll be 5:00 PM and my daughter will be like, “Can I say hi?” And just last night I called her and her son was like, “Can I say hi to that lady?” So it’s just funny because both of our kids are obsessed with saying hi to one another. And we’re like, she’s like, “It’s Katie from work.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but I want to say hi.” I’m like, “Hi, buddy.” So it’s just fun. That’s just fun. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

And for context too, Katie texted me last night at nine something and I’m a couple weeks out from having my second child and I voice texted her and said, “Sorry for typos. I’m half asleep.” It’s like giving context to whatever the conversation’s going to be. What I’m hearing for that one, I think at four is it’s like a professional environment, professional relationships, but recognizing that there’s a whole person within that context.

Brittany Tenis:

You’re just not a worker. Yeah. You’re being seen as somebody other than an employee.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. And I think it’s important for attorneys that are listening to make sure that that’s something they are really fostering at their firm. I mean, that’s a whole nother topic, but firm cultures and stuff, but that has to be fostered and worked with. All right. One more, Brittany. Back to

Mary Simon:

You.

Katie St. John:

Oh yeah,

Mary Simon:

Right. I can do the fifth one.

Katie St. John:

Come on,

Mary Simon:

Mary, bring it home. Yeah, I’ll do the fifth one. I think that it’s recognizing good work when good work is done because that kind of was an underlying tone to this conversation. And I think that I don’t know how you couldn’t do that, but it’s easy not to. Because you get so busy. Yeah. And also when things are going well, you just keep doing things well. Yeah, if it’s working, it’s working and you don’t think to do that and you don’t think to really stop until you need to say, “Oh, wait a minute. Did this get done? Did this? ” So it’s kind of nice to reinforce good work when it’s there because who doesn’t like that? That’s so encouraging.

Katie St. John:

It’s funny, you kind of brought that up with your dad, but when I clerked here, I had worked on a trial with him and there’s no way he knew my name at that point. It was just like this trial was about to start. It’s okay.

Mary Simon:

Sometimes he forgets my name.

Katie St. John:

He needed help. And so I did something for him and the case ended up … I think it didn’t go to trial at that point. I think it ended up settling after the fact. But he came to me afterwards and was like, “Hey, did you do that? ” And I was like, “That was me. ” I was so nervous. I’m like, “Oh

Announcer:

Boy.”

Katie St. John:

But he was like, “Thanks so much. That was great.” And it was just like he … I mean, again, that’s something that has to be fostered all the way all around, but it just felt like so amazing. Here I am a little lawsuit and I’m like, John Simon said I did a good job. And actually one time I was clerking for Kevin and Pat and I did request for admissions for the first time. I literally will never forget this and I still have the screenshot. I sent it to Kevin and Kevin responded, “This is perfect.” So I took a screenshot and I was like, “Yes.” Sit up

Mary Simon:

In your office. No, I do think that’s funny. I just argued at the Court of Appeals last week and both of my parents- Both of my parents came. My mom came too because I tried the case- She should. Well, I tried the case with my dad, but the whole family’s coming to watch, but I think they left even as I was ending my argument. I turned around after I was done and my parents had already left and I was thinking about it. I’m like,

Okay, I mean, I think I did well and he’s gone, so I’m not really sure. And I texted my mom, she’s like, “You did great, honey.” And I’m like, “She’s going to say that no matter what I did.” But then later on at the office, my dad came around to my office and was like, “Oh, I think that went really well. You did a fantastic job.” And in my head I was like, “Oh, I felt the same thing you did where I was like, Oh gosh, I’m so glad that he thought that because he actually disappeared as soon as the argument ended, which is very on brand for him just running out. But it does. It makes a really big difference.

Katie St. John:

Well, that will conclude today’s episode on building strong relationships between attorneys and paralegals. Brittany, thank you so much for doing this with us and being here and sharing your insight. The episodes are released every other Wednesday, so feel free to check them out. If you have any questions, please reach out to us via email at [email protected]. Thank you so much for joining.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Heels in the Courtroom. At the Simon Law Firm, we know that trial success isn’t just about experience, it’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients. If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom.Law.

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