EP 822- Processing Criticism

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Liz Lenivy:

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I’m Liz Lenivy, and today I’m joined by Mary Simon and Elizabeth McNulty. Hello ladies. Hey. Hi. So today we’re going to be talking about something that I’m already cringing thinking about it, but the topic of the day is absorbing the punches, learning how to handle and process criticism and hopefully use it to your benefit. And so before we started recording, the three of us sat around and tried to think about the ways that we process criticism, how do we handle it, how have we learned to handle it in our years of practice? And I think the first thing that came up was that there really is no one way to handle criticism. Everyone has to find their own method, their own strategy, whatever works best for you, what works for you might not work for another person.

And so that’s sort of the first piece of advice we have is that you got to find what fits best for you. However, something that I learned as the three of us were talking is that we have very different perspectives on how to handle it. And so we thought that this episode still might be a good way to talk about the different ways that we process criticism. And hopefully that might help some of our listeners, especially some of the newer listeners, some of the younger attorneys. I know some of you may have just passed theBar exam and are starting your careers. And as much as this is a wonderful, rewarding career, it is one that is often replete with criticisms and people’s hot takes on your job performance. And so we wanted to talk about just maybe some tips and tricks on how to get through this job. And again, take that bad and hopefully turn it into a good for you. So Mary, I want to start with you. What is sort of the beginning process for you in learning how to handle

Mary Simon:

Criticism? Actually, Liz, it’s funny that you started asking with me because I feel like my initial comments when we first had this conversation aren’t different. Even hearing you explain what it means to accept criticism. And I think it largely for me is going to depend on the circumstance or the context in which I’m getting it. My husband doesn’t criticize me, but anytime it’s so funny to me because anytime that he wants to ask me to do something differently in our house or something, so he has to preface it with, this isn’t a critique, this isn’t something bad that you’re doing. But so clearly I don’t take criticism if he has to preface that because I’m probably just giving him death glare as he’s telling me how to put something in the cabinet in a better way. But that’s totally different for me in a work context, obviously.

And I think the caveat to what my advice would be doesn’t necessarily mean that I follow it every single time that I’m receiving criticism. So I think I’m talking about it as I’m not under the fire, right? I’m assuming that I’m getting the critique from someone who has been practicing longer than I have and has done the thing that they’re critiquing longer than I have. And under that circumstance, I’m hoping in my ideal world that I’d be able to just accept the criticism, take it, apply it to the next thing that I’m doing and not think about it too much, just take it understand that they’re telling me for a reason. It’s to benefit the case, the client, this is how it needs to be done. It’s different than what I did and implemented into your work. I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned in taking criticism or absorbing the punches so to speak, is see if there’s a window, if it’s not the right time when you’re getting that feedback to ask more clarifying questions or because especially as a new attorney, you might get feedback about put your best argument upfront or you’re writing for a judge, you’re writing for someone, just put it down in simple words.

You don’t have to over explain things or whatever the feedback might be. If it’s not the right time to then ask, follow-up questions for it, then don’t. But if it feels like there’s space that you can ask the person who you’re talking to say, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the feedback. I might have a couple more questions about that. Can I talk to you about that another time? I maybe carve out a window because the last thing you want to do if you’re working for someone who’s giving you criticism is to do the same thing again. So you want to take it, implement it, and then make sure you’re actually implementing the thing that they told you to do. I don’t know if that makes sense, but you don’t want to be getting critiqued for the same

Liz Lenivy:

Thing more than once. It does make a lot of sense. And it makes me think of, and I’m sure I have told this story on this podcast before because I think I’ve told this story a hundred times, but when prior to coming here, I worked at a defense firm, I was given an assignment, I thought, I thought I had done my best job. I really had not been given much guidance on it besides, here’s something, go do it.

And I said, okay. And I went and I did it and I turned it in. And then I got called down to the partner’s office and he started asking me about the assignment that I had completed. And the question he had for it was, explain to me why you did it this way. What is your reasoning? What is your justification for doing it this way? And it was such a stressful conversation. And I was wearing a Fitbit at the time. Every time I looked down I could see my heart rate. I was like, I think I’m going to have a heart attack in this office. As much as I did not necessarily agree with the method of him giving me criticism on this assignment, I did take that with me. And it goes to what you were saying, Mary, about you take the criticism and you try to apply it for future assignments, future, whatever, so that you aren’t doing that mistake again.

So you are learning from it. And so as much as I hated that experience, and then as much as I thought I was going to end up in the er, I did take from that an important lesson, which is that anytime I draft something, anytime I do something in a case, I need to be able to answer the question, why am I doing it this way? Why am I phrasing the question this way? Why am I asking for this particular document? Why am I wanting to take the deposition of this witness? Why am I requesting this particular whatever from the court? And it’s an important lesson and it’s something that I learned early and I take that with me of I need to have a good why. So I think that that’s great advice of actually trying to take the advice or the criticism because it wasn’t advice, it was frankly, it was a criticism of my work, but taking that criticism and trying to actually learn something from it,

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think one of the biggest things that you need to learn when getting criticism and you need to learn as quick as you can, especially as a young lawyer, are really any young professional in a role where you learn as you’re doing the job you’re going to get. Because those are the kind of jobs where you’re going to get a lot of criticism and it’s going to come at you really fast and probably really hard because that’s the only way you learn in these kinds of jobs. And you’re learning from the people who are doing the jobs. And so those people generally don’t have time to be. Sometimes they do, and those are the people who are probably better mentors when they do it with kid gloves on. But sometimes, as we now know, on the other side of it, sometimes you just lose a little bit of tact and you just forget to be really nice with your criticism.

I’m sure all of us have done that whether, and I feel like we probably don’t even realize we’ve done it, and sometimes it’s just over email maybe and lose the tone of what you’re doing. So my advice is really just you have to be able to take the tone out of whatever criticism is being given to you and just look for the lesson or the message that’s being given to you. Don’t read into whatever that lawyer or supervisor is saying to you or whatever tone they’re using. Maybe sometimes, I mean hopefully you aren’t getting yelled at, but in litigation, maybe it’s midnight before in a trial or something, they’re really stressed out, you’re stressed out, everyone’s stressed out. That doesn’t make it right. But one day you’ll realize you’ll be in their shoes and you’ll be like, okay, I kind of understand why that doesn’t make it right, that doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it’s sort of everyone’s been there.

So you just have to get the lesson and kind of look beyond the behavior. And I think that that’s something that’s really helped me because you just have to hear what they’re saying and not get bogged down in the way that they’re saying it and take that with you and try to just forget the way it’s being delivered. And I really think that that will serve you in the long term of your career because those kinds of things will keep happening in a less, not in the sense that you’re getting criticism, but just in litigation. Sometimes people are going to talk to you in a way you don’t like. Sometimes you’ll be able to talk back to them in a way that meets them, but sometimes because someone’s given you criticism and kind of a mean way, you might be able to just let it roll off of you. So I think that that’s my first piece of advice when getting criticism, and the sooner you learn that, I think the better off you’ll be.

Liz Lenivy:

I think that segues nicely into sort of a next piece of advice that Mary, you had mentioned when we were doing our brainstorming, which is that when taking criticism, apply it to your role, not yourself. And I know you said that and then you immediately followed it up with, that’s really hard for me to do. So

Mary Simon:

Can you talk about that? It’s nice in theory to separate your work from who you are. It’s very, very difficult to do for myself because sometimes I get lost that my identity is lawyer, truly I’m, I’m a lawyer, I’ll say that sometimes before I think I’m married, my husband’s an attorney and I just told him he had a case that he was just filing and there was an issue that was dealing, he was trying to deal with some issue in the case or anticipating dealing with it. And I just said, and just remember it is a case. It’s not who you are as a person. So it’s easier for me to say, and maybe I even said it, I needed to hear it. I remember I was working for an attorney once and I had drafted, I think I was clerking and I drafted a motion response.

And the first feedback that I got was, yeah, this reads like we’re going to lose. And that was the feedback I got. And I had used a prior response that we had, me and this attorney had an, I just remember thinking in a second, I am the problem. I was totally defeated and I was like, oh my God, I can’t do this and if I can’t do this then, then what the hell am I doing? And I’m never going to amount to, I took it so hard and in my head now I’m just like, damn, I probably need to go back and rework this a little bit. But it’s so hard when you’re learning in the legal profession under lawyers who are actively working on a case and it feels like it’s high stakes if someone criticizes your work, it almost makes it seem like you’re not capable of being a lawyer and then you can’t accomplish anything.

It’s like it’s not that deep. You just need to take what the person’s saying and apply it to the work. It doesn’t mean you need to have your personality get changed or something. I don’t know if something in your work product needs to be addressed. And it was so hard for me, and it still is, even if you go and you lose emotion, we can’t control the outcome. All we can do is do research and do our best and present our best argument. You can’t win every motion. And even that sometimes I’m like, dang, maybe it’s a comparison thing. I’m like, what? Everyone else would’ve lost that motion and I did it. And is it a reflection of who I am as an advocate? And maybe that’s a little bit of what it is. It’s that in the work that we do, we use a lot of our values.

It’s not like we walk into this law firm and our values are a new set than what we have as people. At least I can say that for myself. I think that it applies to both of you as well, at least us around this table. But so much of the work that we’re doing, we’re doing because we actually hold that value of the work we’re doing. So if something goes wrong with it or it’s critiqued, we feel that it’s like a pull on who we are and the things that we value. And even saying that out loud is helping me a lot to do that. So Liz, thanks for asking me that question. That’s probably why. But yeah, it is difficult.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think it also helps to keep in mind just how dramatic we can be. I remember getting feedback. This feels like a criticism and I’m not

Liz Lenivy:

Taking it well.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yes, I remember getting feedback of when I was writing stuff for another lawyer. So you have to take into account how they want the tone to be. But it being just like I had to make substantial changes to this, and I would go and compare what I submitted and what actually got submitted to the court, and there would be literally three words change. I’d like, okay, I don’t really know why you felt the need to say that, but

Mary Simon:

Okay, noted.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So just sometimes just we’re dramatic people and things. You just have to be like, cool, good luck to you. That’s great.

Liz Lenivy:

I think sometimes in a little bit of self-reflection here, we’re dramatic about the level of criticism, meaning sort of the opposite. So Elizabeth, I’m going to use you as an example. So recently that I had gotten unfairly criticized about something in a way that I did not appreciate it. I remember going into Elizabeth’s office the next day and I was still heated about it, and I told her about the conversation, I’m really upset that this person said this to me. And Elizabeth, you looked at me and you were like, is it that bad? Maybe take a beat and think about it. And in that moment I was like, all right, look, I don’t like this, but I guess I’m getting called on my bullshit a little bit and maybe I’m a little bit sensitive at the moment. I have a lot going on both professionally and personally, not sleeping great.

Maybe I’m a little bit sensitive right now. And so I think that that’s also sometimes important to remember is in the moment it feels like a really intense criticism. It feels like an unfair criticism, and maybe there’s an element to it being a little unfair if someone doesn’t fully know your circumstances. And that’s the other thing is when you’re getting some of this criticism, you know what you’re going through, but that other person may not. So kind of keeping that in mind of, okay, well maybe it’s impacting me a little bit differently, but I think in this situation when it comes to criticism, it is important to consider the person’s intent. So why are they saying it? What is the context in which they are saying it? And I’m obviously receiving it very differently because I’m receiving it in a different context than they’re giving it. So just trying to keep that in mind I think is important. And sometimes maybe just running it by people so they can tell you whether or not you are having an appropriate response is a good thing. But Mary, something that you said that I got a good chuckle out of was you introduce yourself as I’m lawyer, I’m Mary, I am lawyer. After I passed theBar exam, my mom one time introduced me to a group of her friends where she goes, this is my daughter, she’s lawyer.

She was just so excited to tell people she didn’t mention. So then I had to stop and say also, my name is Liz,

Mary Simon:

My daughter

Liz Lenivy:

Tod. When I think about it, and sometimes maybe to give ourselves a little bit of grace here, think about how hard we all had to work to get here. And it’s not just, oh, I got through theBar exam. Oh, I just got through law school. Everything you have been doing since you were a small, small child, all of your education, all of your extracurriculars have been sort of culminating to this moment where you have sort of achieved the precipice of your academic career and now you are venturing on. For some of our listeners at least who follow that more traditional route, you may be entering in on a new journey in your life and that is now your identity because that’s everything you’ve worked your life up to becoming. And so I try to give myself a little bit of grace when I think about how I may respond to people criticizing my professional abilities. And more often than not, if a client is unhappy about

Mary Simon:

Something,

Liz Lenivy:

And a lot of times I have to remember too that they may not understand the process. So when I tell them, sorry, we lost this motion, the judge is going to require that we turn this discovery over and they get upset with me, and I go, well, I mean there was precedent for why they’re allowed to get this or this is the judge’s reasoning. Although I will say I think it’s very rare for a client to be critical. I think the majority of our clients are really understanding people and we try really hard to explain the process to them at the beginning. But of course, I think any attorney will agree that you’re going to have sometimes some difficult clients who are going to be critical because they don’t understand the process or maybe they just, that’s just who they are. Maybe they’re just a critical person. And so it is difficult to not take that personally. I think that that is hopefully a muscle we work at and we get better at compartmentalizing your role from you as a person. But I also think sometimes it’s okay to get annoyed at criticism and to sometimes recognize if it’s unfair. Just as we kind of mentioned earlier, sometimes criticism is fair and you got to learn from it. And so that’s actually another tip I have written down is using sometimes using criticism to fuel you.

And I don’t know if either of you have any experiences with taking a piece of criticism and just sort of running with it.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, I mean even thinking back to that motion I was talking, the motion response I was talking about in my head, I was like, well, I’m never going to write anything again that’s going to get that response. So it’s like just triple checking, quadruple checking before you’re handing that same person if it’s an attorney you’re writing for, if you’ve learned one time something about their style or something, you try to make that amendment for the next thing. And it’s like you’re almost turn it into a determination to not receive that same

Feedback again. And it also kind of reminded me of Elizabeth, when you were talking about the change not being significant that was made from what you wrote to what was submitted in the context of receiving the feedback you did. It’s the longer you practice, the more you understand that there are countless ways to accomplish a goal. Sometimes in a case like strategically, there are so many different approaches. Authenticity is a huge thing of what we do. The way we advocate is also individualized based on who we are as people, like what our personalities are. But the longer you practice and the more lawyers that you talk with, you might find that what one person was criticizing you for is the way another lawyer practices even in your own office. I remember when I was clerking and I drafted something for an attorney at this office, but I had used the materials that I was looking for or looking at before putting that document together.

Belonged to a different lawyer at the same office though, and the attorney who I handed the assignment to, she told me to make it nicer, make it a little bit nicer. It was a letter of some form. It wasn’t a court pleading. And even that, I don’t even know that I’d call it criticism as much as I’d qualified as kind of feedback. I don’t know. It didn’t feel critical at all, but it was like the same message getting the same point across to the attorney on the other side of the case. And she just had a different way of communicating than the other attorney did. And I have a feeling that had I written it from her point of view, that the other attorney whose work I looked at would say, no, you need to make this a little bit you stronger language or something. It’s harder to do early on in practice when you’re kind of siloed with a specific team or a specific partner that you’re working with. But just keep in mind too, to help absorb the criticism. The work you do for that attorney might be encouraged by the next attorney that you work for, but it’s so hard to see when you’re just starting out practicing and all you’re doing is working and getting critical feedback. It can be hard, but there it will be better the longer that you’re practicing expanding your experiences.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think if you frame it in a way of just, it’s just another extension of law school at the beginning, you’re just getting kicked in the face a lot and you got to get used to it because you’re just learning. You didn’t know how to do this, you weren’t prepared for it. And it doesn’t mean that you aren’t meant to do this. You just don’t know how to do it and it’s okay. And it doesn’t go against your self worth. You just have to put it in a place and don’t take it personally. And I find that when you’re getting criticism and it upsets you, you got to take a minute and you have to figure out why. Because I think sometimes when it hits you the hardest sometimes that means is that a little bit true? Is this something that I really got to work on?

And then it’s like, okay, well maybe that person said it in a mean way or maybe they said it in a really gentle way and I still just got really upset. And it’s like, okay, well they found a weak spot in me. So it’s just like they’re doing you a favor and everyone here has a common goal and it’s like to make you a better lawyer or to honestly win cases or whatever. No one here is trying to bully you hopefully. And if you’re in a situation like that, you get out, yeah, you should look for new job or

Mary Simon:

Something,

Elizabeth McNulty:

Go talk to hr, do something. But everyone has a common goal. This is just making you a better lawyer. So if you’re struggling with taking criticism, you got to get to the root of it. Is it because you feel a little bit self-conscious that maybe you just aren’t used to not being good at stuff and that’s hard, but that’s just part of being a young lawyer and you got to get used to it and you’ll get better. It does go away at some point, so just hang in there.

Liz Lenivy:

So I know we’ve been talking about processing a lot of big feelings and something that I had written down and I am a firm believer in is that it is okay to express emotion privately. So what I mean by that, I don’t think I’m being subtle, but find closet, go cry. Yeah, find someplace to process your emotions and it’s fine. I think it’s okay to go home and talk to your family about it, talk to your friends about it, help them or get their take on it. I think that you guys had kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but if this is a situation where someone is being unfairly critical to the point of bullying, then maybe you do need to talk to some people and figure out what your next steps are because that’s not a conducive environment to you growing, to you learning to stay in this profession.

That just sounds like a recipe for disaster and for quitting. But I am a big proponent in processing your emotions privately, but learning how to keep it together publicly. This is a really tough job. You’re not weak because you feel sad or you feel bad about hearing some of the things that you’re probably going to hear because of the nature of this job and how competitive it is. I mean, again, other than politics, how many other jobs are there where you have someone on the other side of you who is actively trying to stop you from doing your job? And then on top of it, there can be competition within your firm, within your organization. And then if you have client demands, if you’ve got a judge who may be coming down on you hard, there’s so many different avenues that criticism and negative feedback can be coming from.

And it is sometimes very overwhelming, but you learn to process it. And I think that that kind of feeds into the last tip, tip. That’s a problem with attorneys as we always say. This is my last piece of advice, and it’s never actually the last thing we’re going to say, but you got to surround yourself with people. You got to be able to talk about it, surround yourself with people that you trust that you know will give you good advice, whether you are appropriately responding, whether you are not responding enough and defending yourself enough, whether maybe you’re overreacting. I feel truly so blessed and lucky to have such a great sounding board around me from my family, my husband, my friends, and then the people that I work with. I have such good relationships with all of you that I feel comfortable, for example, going to you Elizabeth or you Mary, and saying, can you believe this person said this to me? And actually knowing I’m going to get honest, sure, but gentle feedback.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think that’s good advice. I am more of an internal processor, so if you feel like you don’t want to talk to anybody about a lot of these things, don’t feel like you have to share the big stuff, certainly talk to somebody. But if you work it out on your own, just find a healthy outlet for it. I do find that that helps a lot. The sooner you do that, the better off you’ll be. I do have just one other thing that I think it’s probably for people at our level and above that’s important to mention. I think you have to decide if this is a situation you even want criticism on before you kind of go into those conversations. Or are you just looking for validation? I think those are the situations where you’re going to just start arguing with the person that is giving you criticism because you just want them to tell you that you have a good idea

Mary Simon:

And criticism is going to happen. It is an inevitable part of this job.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So sometimes, whether it be in your personal life or your professional life, you have to decide if you even want to ask anybody for their thoughts or opinions because you don’t have to. Sometimes it’s inevitable, but you don’t have to. So if you don’t want it, don’t take it. And ultimately you get to choose what you take away from those conversations. So keep that in mind.

Liz Lenivy:

Alright ladies, well thank you again for another interesting but difficult, at least in my perspective conversation. And I want to thank all of our listeners for joining us for this episode. Remember, new episodes of heels in the Courtroom drop every other Wednesday, and if you want to reach out to us, you can contact us at heels in the Courtroom Law. Thanks guys.

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