EP 819- Emotional Trial Support Animals

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Amy Gunn:

Hello everyone, and welcome back to an episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I am Amy Gunn, and today I am joined by Mary Simon. Elizabeth McNulty. Erica Slater and Liz Lenivy. Hello ladies.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hey.

Amy Gunn:

Hello. Okay, so we’re already down in the dumps because our topic today is pets, more specifically trial support animals, which also known as our pets. And the reason today’s topic involves pets is that my beloved Sun Bun Gunn is no longer with us. He was 13 years old, although I don’t have a specific recollection of talking about Sun Bun Gunn on this podcast over the years. But suffice it to say that he was a very important member of our family. He came from, let’s see, it would’ve been the summer of 2011, and actually Ann Brolin, who was with our firm for a number of years, lived in the city. My previous cat had died in June, and that was also hard on us. And we were taking a break from pets at the time, and she had an orange tabby stray that came to her home, and I think she put out some food and called me and said, Hey, because she knew that we’d lost Ellie, our previous cat, and said, Hey, there’s an orange tabby around.

And we were out of town, I think it was a Friday night. I said, if the cat’s still around on Sunday afternoon when we get back to town, then I’ll take that as a sign that we should come up. The boys were young at the time. And so Sunday night comes around and I think I called her and she said, oh, he was gone, the cat was gone. And I said, okay, it wasn’t meant to be. And then the next day, if I recall correctly, had a neighborhood email, like a group email, and an email came through that the same orange cat had gone to another home and they had taken him in him to the vet and fed him, but they couldn’t keep him because he was not going to get along with their cat that they already had. So then I knew it was meant to be.

So I went home, got the boys, went to Anne’s, and we picked up this orange tabby and brought him home. And on the way home, I specifically remember talking to the boys about what to call this cat. And because he was orange and the boys were young, he looked like sunshine, he looked like sunshine to them, but we thought Sunshine was not the perfect name for this big boy. He was about six months old at the time. Big boy Catt Sunshine became sunny. And then I do a lot of silly rhyming, so Sunny Bunny, and then it eventually became Sun Bun, and our last name is Gunn. So Sun Bun Gunn just sounded cool to us. So it is cool. It’s cool.

Erica Slater:

Last, objectively cool.

Amy Gunn:

So SBG, Sun Bun Gun. And that cat has been a delightful companion for so many years. Our previous cat, Ellie really only loved me. Some cats were just like one loyalty. That’s it. Sun Bun loved everybody was sweet and loving a cuddle bug, and I just can’t remember a day without him around and he becomes a shadow. I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend, they lost their dog a couple years ago, and he said, I cried for a week because this dog was just my shadow. Every time you looked around, the pet was there. And so that’s what I feel like I’ve lost. I’ve lost a little shadow every time the alarm goes off at 5:00 AM sun bun just opens my eyes and meets me in the bathroom, and we begin our day together. And he had a habit of drinking from the faucet.

He would never drink from a bowl. And so we’re constantly going around the house, turning on the faucets for him, and we finally got a kitchen faucet a couple of years ago that turns off automatically. So that was great because I didn’t feel like I was wasting water when a half an hour would go by and be like, wait, the water’s still on. So he fell victim to what many older cats do, which is kidney failure. And so we’ve been out of town quite a bit lately. On summer holidays, we got home late Saturday afternoon. My boys had been home with him and he didn’t come out to greet me immediately. He’d also been having accidents a little bit around the house over the last month, and I sort of chalked it up to us being out. Sometimes cats react to you being gone. We also had workers in the basement where his litter boxes, and I think a lot of it also was kind of denial because my previous cat died the same way.

So when I got home Saturday and saw him, we immediately took him to the vet and my older son, Connor, and I took him, man, we were already crying before Sun Bun even saw the doctor because I think we both kind of knew. Long story short, I won’t get too emotional, although too late, but we had a couple of options, none of which were life prolonging. There’s no treatment or real cure. The blood work showed end stage renal disease essentially. And so we have to make a tough decision that a lot of pet owners do to avoid a prolonged pain And sadness. I found myself Wanting to apologize,

Which is a strange thing I think to want to do. But as a woman, as an empath, as a mother, as a daughter, I think a natural instinct is to take care of in all aspects, whether it’s just putting out the food, changing the litter box, and regardless of how natural it is for pets lives to end, there is a feeling of letting them down and then ultimately having to make that decision. The call at the end of the day, which is so, it feels so selfish, I felt so selfish that I didn’t want to make that decision. I wanted one more night. I didn’t know that the Tuesday night before I left at 5:00 AM was the last night that I was going to have. So part of me wanted that last night, bring him home because he had normal vital signs, which I found a little bit odd, but even with normal vital signs, the blood work was clear about end stage renal disease, but we could have brought him home, could have brought him home and let him almost have a hospice at home.

But that felt very selfish. And oddly, we were all together. Kevin and I had just gotten back from a little trip. Connor hasn’t gone back to school yet, and for a Saturday night even Nathan was home. And so we knew it was the right time to bring everybody together. And it was a blessing to be able to say goodbye. And I know I’m talking about a cat. I mean, it’s not lost on me that I’m talking about a cat, but when I think about it and having the topic here, trial support, animals, just the unconditional love that they bring, and they don’t care what’s going on in your life. They don’t care that you had a terrible day at the office or that you lost a trial or got stuck at the airport for 12 hours getting back from a deposition. They just need you.

And there’s something so leveling for that be in your life to have somebody or something in particular that just wants their bowl filled, like, okay, mom, yeah, great. I’m sorry that you had a terrible day, but I’m kind of hungry here. And I think that it brings perspective to a world that sometimes leads us, allows us to be very wrapped up in our own little world. And it does provide perspective that I personally need to be brought back down to reality that hey, it’s not just about you and what’s going on. And for me, sunburn did that on a daily basis And I will miss that. But I appreciate it. And I have said maybe even on this podcast, a little saying that I saw not that long ago that I’ve remembered, which is don’t be sad because it’s over smile, because it happened. And Kevin repeated that to me on Saturday night as this was going on. I was like, too soon, too soon. But now I can try to embrace that and take comfort in it. So thank you for indulging me in my therapy session with respect to Sun Bun Gunn RIP, sun Bun Gun. Some of you might know that I do have another cat ob, he’s only two, and he certainly is a wonderful cat as well. But I also don’t think, I don’t want to feel like he’s Sun Bun’s replacement, that doesn’t feel respectful. It’ll never be

Mary Simon:

A replacement.

Amy Gunn:

No, it doesn’t feel respectful to Sun Bun, but I wanted to bring it up today, the podcast again, not only because I needed therapy from my ladies, but also I think our listeners, for those of you who do have pets and really fear the day that this is going to happen to them, just know you’re not alone. And being on the other side of it so acutely right now today, I still so appreciate him the time that we had because it is worth it. It is worth it. And again, I can’t even express how many days I came home and just having him there was comforting. So don’t avoid getting a pet because you worry about the day that you have to say goodbye because there’s so many days in between that are special.

Erica Slater:

On our podcast, we spend a lot of time talking about what we all think is a very high fluent profession and kind of what drives us and feeds probably our egos and everything else. And I think that one thing that we’ve always tried to do on the podcast is break down the difference. Yes, we’re all good trial lawyers. We’re trying to practice at the top of our game every day, but what comes with that is a whole host of living outside of it. Part of living outside of what we do on a day-to-Day basis is dealing with the stress and involvement that we have to when we’re outside of work because we don’t leave it at work. And I think that as we’ll see as we kind of talk around the table too, part of that, we’ve all answered that question with adopting pets. And this is a relevant topic to our podcast because it’s all part of how we’ve all gotten through some hard times.

And Amy hearing you talk about the simplicity of that relationship, human relationships are so complicated, and you’re talking about that feeling of nurturing and everything and wanting to take care. And sometimes that can be so draining from the point of being a lawyer, representing a client, being a mom, being a spouse, being a daughter. Those relationships at certain times can be so draining, but putting a little bit of kibble in a bowl or turning on a faucet is always something you can do that is immediately met with just ratitude and love. And this simpleness of that relationship is just such, I mean, at the risk of sounding cliche, such a blessing hopefully in our lives and hopefully in some of our listeners as well. So Liz, you want to tell us about your little buds?

Liz Lenivy:

I will never turn down the opportunity to talk about my cats. And I feel like I have to give a little bit of thanks to Sun Bun Gunn for the fact that I have my cats

I had always grown up as a quote dog person and someone who really did not like cats. And part of that was I think I had a bad experience with one cat in particular as a child, and I probably deserved that cat’s reaction. Cats are great about teaching consent and setting boundaries, which is something as a 7-year-old I did not understand. So I grew up just not really liking cats, but my husband grew up with cats and he loved them. So when we moved in together, he had, because he’s A CPA, he had worked a couple of busy seasons, and for anyone who’s familiar with busy season in the accounting world, you just don’t see that person very often. They’re working really late and in trial, it’s for basically their trial for months and months on end. And so I had, not that I wasn’t working a ton myself, but my schedule was a little bit more normal in that I ended up spending a lot of time by myself and it sucked.

But I also knew that sometimes my schedule would not allow for, I didn’t want to make a commitment to a dog and my family dog who I had growing up, dj, who was a wonderful long-haired chihuahua, but everybody thought he was a Pomeranian. He was a long-haired chihuahua, a little fur ball. He had just passed away. And so I didn’t quite know if I wanted a dog, and I just wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. But I was actually at, I was getting my nails done, and they had the news on in the background, and it was in 2017 when Hurricane Harvey hit Texas and they were shipping a bunch of cats up from Houston to various Missouri Humane societies to help alleviate the stress on these particular animal shelters. And so they were literally giving cats away. It was like a buy one, get one, and I love a good sale. And so I was like, I’ve always heard cats are less work and they’re not my favorite, but it’s better than not having anything. And I know how happy Steve would be with the cat. And so I went and I told Steve about it, and it was so funny because they were calling it a hurricane sale,

Mary Simon:

Hurricane Harvey.

Liz Lenivy:

So I told Steve about it, and Steve was completely on board, and I was like, okay, I’ll take a look at the website tomorrow. So who’s available? And I remember telling Amy, Hey, I think I’m going to get a cat. They’re on sale. The humane societies overrun with them, and I’m lonely. I would like someone at home with me When Steve’s working late, and you talked about how much you loved Sun Bun Gunn, how much joy he had brought to your life, you got onto the Humane Society with me, and you were like, you need him. How about this one? And I remember you saying, if you need to leave a little bit early today to make sure you can get there before they close go. And I was like, well, yeah, okay, you’re telling me to go home early. So Steve and I, we got there and actually a lot of the cats had been cleared out by the time we got there.

It was like St. Louis really stepped up to get these Texas cats adopted. And there were these two little cats though that they were pair bonded. They were together. And I told Steve, I don’t know if I want two cats. I’ve never even had one cat. And he was like, no, let’s just spend some time with them. Let’s just spend some time with them. And so we spent a little bit of time with them and they were super cute, and it’s hard to not immediately fall in love with these animals. And I’ll say about 15 minutes later, a family came in and they wanted one of them. They didn’t want both, they just wanted one. And they actually kind of got a snippy with us about, well, why do you need two? We were being selfish adopting two cats that were pair bonded. And I was like, if Amy hadn’t let me out a little bit early, meant to go get these being influenced by Sun Bun Gun.

Exactly. So really Sun Bun Gunn is the reason I have Oscar and Poe in my life. And Oscar is our boy Catt, and Steve is his human, and he curls up with Steve every evening on the couch. And PO is our girl cat, and she’s very much my cat. I think we mirror many of the same anxiety, and I love her. And this morning Oscar did throw up on the bed and I had to strip the sheets off and wash ’em. And I laid down on the couch while I was waiting for those sheets to clean, and Poe came up and just laid right down next to me. And I was like, man, I thought about Sun Bud. And while I was griping at Oscar about, come on man, there’s anywhere else you could together why in my bed? But I was like, it’s so worth it.

At the end of the day, all of the annoyances and everything, they do bring so much joy to my life. And as someone who was not entirely sure about cats, I really, and I think that’s true for any pet, just having someone there who loves you truly unconditionally is great. And I’ll come home and I’ve had a bad day, and I think that they can sense when we’ve had a bad day or we’re having a hard time and they react to that. So it’s been wonderful. I know how much you loved Sun Bun. I always enjoyed whenever I got to go over to your house seeing him and just big Orange Boy, what a blessing. I’ll miss him as well. I am so grateful that he had such a wonderful influence on your life that it has now led to such wonderful influences on my life.

Erica Slater:

Elizabeth, you want to tell us about Hank? Sure.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So I guess I don’t remember two years ago I was in a place where I felt like I was ready to get a dog. It was sort of on a whim. I think I’ve told this story before. And so I was set on some kind of doodle because that is a very popular thing to do. And I didn’t want to deal with the shedding because before Hank there was shadow. So when I was nine, my parents sat me and my brother down and wanted to talk about the idea of moving two hours away to a new place. And I just started crying hysterically. I was nine. And that’s what you do when you’re nine and you get what you perceive as bad news. And I remember being like, well, can we get a dog? And they were like, yeah. And I immediately started crying. I was like, all right, let’s go. Probably started packing my suitcase a plus negotiation skills too. Well, if we’re getting a dog,

Erica Slater:

Only one answer to that question.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Sounds good. So we went to the Humane Society, and once we got settled in Owensboro and we adopted a Siberian Husky named Shadow,

He was already named. He was like four at the time. I’ve also spoken about him before, but he was a really great dog and we had to put him down right before I moved to St. Louis and started law school. My gosh. So that was quite traumatizing for my family. So I certainly understand what you all are going through, Amy making that decision is really, really hard. And they came to our house and they put him down on our back deck, which was the worst. Quite frankly, I’m really glad my parents no longer live in that house because you think about forever. So at that point, my mom vowed to never get another dog again because of just the pain that you go through. So I thankfully moved on from that. At some point, you think about him, his ashes are in a box underneath my parents on a shelf in our house.

But I think I’ve seen where before the dog you get this is the dog shadow scent, Hank or whatever. So that’s always a really sweet thought. But I adopted Hank about two and a half years ago, sort of on a whim, you reach out to the people that sell these dogs and when you have ’em available, they’re like, oh, we have some available right now. When do you want to come get him? I was like, oh, I was completely unprepared for having a dog. I lived alone at the time. So I was like, all right, let’s do it. So my mom flew into St. Louis and we drove across the state to get Hank, and he was just like the scaredest little guy you’ve ever seen. He would just sit behind me in the car on the drive home, just like Burrow. And he did that for several months.

But he’s a quirky, quirky little doodle. But I love him so much as you all know. And if you have pets, you know what that kind of bond is. And I think it’s interesting. Hank’s probably the only, he’s not a person, the only, he does look like a human. The only one who’s seen me like the lowest of lows, the highest of highs. And that’s just so wild because they can sense it, but they also don’t care. And they’re like, alright, but could we go for a walk? Can you stop crying over whatever happened to you? Let’s just go for a walk. And so I think that’s the greatest thing. And if you’re in the position where you’re starting out your practice and you’re like, I don’t really have time for that, it was something that was really healthy for me because it was the first kind of responsibility I had outside myself, and it was a reason why I couldn’t stay at the office for 12 hours. You have a responsibility and people understand that. And so I owe a lot of probably my mental health to Hank, and he owes a lot of his mental health to me as well, because sometimes I’m not sure who’s supporting who. Sorry,

Mary Simon:

Hearing you all talk about your pets makes me think about actually how much of an impact Billy, my dog Billy that she has on me. And I was initially thinking about her name, which is hilarious. Mark and I met at St. Louis University law school, so we were thinking Billiken, but then we named her Billy. And then Nora, my daughter had high bilirubin levels. So then we started calling her bilirubin, we call her Billy Ruby, and now she’s Bill. And Nora now will say Billy Rubin to her because clearly she’s heard us talk about it. But it’s so interesting to think about trial nights. She’s the one who’s sitting next to me on my computer no matter the time of day. She sleeps on the floor in my room on a little mat that we just got her a Tempur-Pedic little mattress thing that she sleeps on.

And what’s so funny is thinking about her in terms of ups and downs in the office that I work in at home, it’s always kind of a mess after you have a kid and postpartum and all this stuff. And I had Billy and I was going back to work. I was getting ready to go back to work, and it was the lowest days, I think it was just the hormones and stuff. And Mark brought Billy up to our room and I couldn’t lift her up on the bed, but I want her on the bed with us. And Mark put her on the bed and I took a picture of her face right next to mine. She just laid next to me. And I have that picture in my home office, and it’s like that picture and a picture of my family, which she’s a part of, but her picture is Mark put backing on it and it’s framed.

It’s the only picture that’s framed in my office, and it’s massive. It’s a massive picture for her and it’s not even a great picture, but that Mark knew that that’s just the only thing that I needed was just to be alone, left alone with the dog because she’s not going to ask me questions. She’s just going to sit next to me. She just got me through so much and she still does, whether it’s you fertility stuff or whether it’s work, it’s just she’s always there. And I was reading the other day actually, it was probably a TikTok that it was like your dog is only, or your animal’s only part of your life, but you’re their whole life, which is that always just gives you the extra motivation to go pet them or go on a walk, anything like that. I’m the one who normally walks Billy, she’s just my buddy.

I get up really early, she’s just always with me, kind of like sun bun. And I was walking her later at night if I got home from trial. And I knew that she hadn’t had a walk yet. And on the last day of my last trial, the one before the last one, we got out of court and the next morning I got up and I brought Billy in the car with me. We went to McDonald’s and I got her a hamburger. We went through the drive through and I got her a hamburger. Then we went to the park and walked around for two hours. And I did not think that I was obsessed with my pet until you guys started talking. I was like, oh my God, the things that I have done for Billy, it was her outing the day was right around her.

And is one of those relationships where it’s not complicated. And so you come home after a horrible day or you’re dealing with tough attorneys or whatever it is, they just don’t give a shit. They don’t care. They just want to sit with you on the couch and have physical contact. Billy will just put her paw on me. So it’s really kind of a weird comfort in a profession that can have so many ups and downs. It’s such a steady source of light and love and support. And I’ve even told Mark before at sometimes when it’s just the hardest times when I can just take her to the park or we can just hang out. I’m like, I swear she just gets me through because you know, have to take care of her, you have to take care of the pet. She gets you outside or she’ll, I don’t know, just give so much support.

But I am thinking there’s a million more moments like that. But I just laugh when I think about the hardest days and the things that I have done is schedule a time for my dog and I to be together out of the house going through a drive through, which is probably so bad, but I just did that. But yeah, we just got back from vacation. I’m actually picking her up today from the place that she was staying at, and I cannot wait in this conversation. Makes me more excited. But it also makes you appreciate the time you have with your pets. So as hard as it is, whenever I grew up with dogs, as hard as it is to say goodbye to your animal, you just would never give it up to get rid of those days that you had with them. It’s always worth it. But I agree with Elizabeth, it’s kind of like if you’re in a position where you’re thinking, can I do this? I’m getting kind of settled. I’ve never had a day where I didn’t want to have Billy with me. So for what it’s worth, we just love our pets so much.

Erica Slater:

Well, I think as I’ve been sitting here, I had a new realization about my pet history that I may have learned from my mom, and I’ll let you guys decide at the end of this whether this is healthy or not. So I’m going to go back to sixth grade. My parents split and they lived about a 10 minute walk from each other. But my dad always had dogs growing up and my mom did not. And she was very resistant to us ever having a dog. Now, I’m not going to say this is the reason they got divorced, but I’m going to put it on the list, tos it in. And lo and behold, guess who was okay with me getting a dog once they were apart. So my mom took me to the Humane Society and I got little Maddie Madison, a little sweet mix that I picked out in sixth grade, and she was just the best sweetest dog.

And my mom and my sister and I, everyone in our family was obviously getting through a tough time of readjusting. And I know that that dog for my mom and me was just such a blessing to, it was absolutely the right thing to do, even if it irked my dad a little bit, he got over it. And so Maddie lived for quite some time. And when I went to college, the deal was that my mom, who was with my stepdad, then they were going to keep the dog when I had to live in the dorms for two years. So they were going to keep the dog, and then I get the dog back when I was in college. Well, guess what? I didn’t get Maddie back. They were so in love with Maddie and she was living in Houston and I was in Milwaukee, and apparently she was a warm weather dog at that point.

So even though she had some husky in her, apparently my reasoning didn’t win out. So they kept sweet Maddie until the end of her life, which was very peaceful and sweet. But I missed her very much and had a great experience growing up with her. So I had always wanted to get another dog after my dog, which was promised to come back to me, did not. And when I went to law school right after college, I had my sight set on as soon as I can adopt a dog myself, I will. My first year I had a roommate. I couldn’t have a dog in that situation. In my second year, I moved into an apartment by myself, but background, I had been in this relationship for maybe four or five years at this point. And for all intents and purposes from outside, it looked like a really good relationship.

And this person was very nice. And as you’re getting older and making your own decisions, everybody was like, oh, you guys will probably get married. And that scared the shit out of me because I knew that wasn’t what should happen, even though it looked like we both had everything going for us being together. So I get this dog, and I kind of did not involve that person in that decision at all. And it seemed, it felt like the beginning of the end of that relationship doing something independently. It wasn’t a dog. We got together even after being together a pretty long time, you’d think that if you were doing anything like that, it would be like we’re getting this dog together, going to maybe eventually move in together. And they were in law school with me too. So this was a big decision. So I got Little Line Bear Linus from the Humane Society again because I was convinced that if I just did everything the same way as we did with Maddie, that it would be just as good of a dog.

And I was mostly right, a little bit more hyper at first. So he was a stray and he was really sweet. I didn’t believe the Humane Society when they said he was six months old. I just feel like they’re always lying to think you’re getting a puppy. But the vet confirmed based on his teeth, but I guess he was a stray, but whoever picked him up, kept him outside for three months before trying to find a home for him. So he wasn’t used to indoor noises. So I got him in August and he was scared by the air conditioner coming in. It took a long time to kind of get him adjusted, kind of what you’re saying with Hank. He was really skittish. But as you can imagine, as we built a stronger and stronger relationship, and as I let go of that other relationship and that was kind of deteriorating, it was just the right time and it was a pet there at the right time.

Then I met Kristen and they became best friends immediately, and I’m like, oh yeah, this is our dog that I got for us a couple years ago. And so Sweet Linnie was, Lenny is still with us, but he has been Rehomed 15. And when we had our second kid, I guess two years ago, he just started getting really, really anxious. He is an old boy, and my uncle had been walking him every day since my third year of law school actually, because my first semester I was working here, actually, I was just gone a lot during the day when my schedule, I didn’t plan for that. And my uncle had just retired and he is like, I’ll walk your dog every day. And I’m like, wow. And he just continued doing it for 10 years. And so they’re already buds. And when he kind heard what was going on, Linus wouldn’t stay on the same floor and the house as us, and it was just kind of hard to see.

So we kind of slowly understood that something needed to happen. And I’m so thankful to my uncle that he was willing to kind of take that over. So sweet lining Bear is nearing the end of his life, and that’s something we’ll have to deal with in the future coming up here. But we do keep for weekends when my uncle goes out of town or has something going on and the girls just delight in him. And it’s great because since he’s not around kind of the chaos of little kids screaming, he participates when he’s there for a weekend and he, he’s so gentle and always has been. And so it’s really cute to see the girls with him. And they do put costumes and stuff on him. So I know that maybe they’re a little too young to, we’re not ready for our next pet quite yet, but someday. So yeah, I think the two great pets that I’ve had in my life have all gotten my family through the hump of a big transition, and thank God for that.

Amy Gunn:

Yeah. Well, listeners, I hope you’re not sad by our discussion today. I know we’re a little bit off script today, but I can say it’s been very cathartic to me to be able to talk through this. And it did occur to us that many of our listeners are busy professionals that are trying to juggle a lot of things. And we hoped that if you do have pets, you can relate. If you don’t have pets, maybe it’s something you can learn from and don’t be afraid to get one. They really do give you so much love and joy and responsibility, but not the same kind of responsibility that we have at work or with our families. It’s just as Erica as you said, it’s just simple. It’s a simple joy that we all deserve. So thank you very much for listening to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. We drop shows every other week. Please write to us, give us some ideas or feedback. We’d love to hear it at heels in the Courtroom Law. Thanks.

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