EP 813- Mentorship Within The Firm Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Erica Slater:

Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. We are picking up our discussion from last time. This is Erica Slater and I’m joined by Liz Levy, Amy Gunn and Elizabeth McNulty. And today we’ll be continuing our discussion from part one about mentor and mentee relationships. And we’ll focus more today on the mentee side of things. And we’ll be talking about what we’ve learned about several years of working with law students and college students and mentees. So looking back on our own clerkships at this firm, what would you say are the things that made you a successful clerk or made you stand out among the group in the way that you did?

Elizabeth McNulty:

It was really important to me to never say no. When a lawyer came in and asked if anyone had time for another assignment. I clerked here for a couple of years and there were other clerks that would say they didn’t have time for any more work. And I was never one of those clerks. I was always just going to make time for more work because I just figured that I could make the time and if a lawyer needed it done, then I was going to make it work. And

Erica Slater:

That’s what you were here to

Elizabeth McNulty:

Do? Yeah, I was just always flummoxed by the people that didn’t think that they could make the time because it’s just like being a law student. You think it’s hard and I get in the moment it’s hard, but being a lawyer’s going to be a lot harder. And if you don’t have the recognition of that, then you got to buckle up because things aren’t going to get any easier for you. And you’ve got to, as Liz says, keep all the plates spinning. So I was always really surprised by that. And I always tell clerks that you got to keep saying yes when people ask if you have time for one more thing. You never know at the beginning, lawyers you’re working for are trying to gauge if they can trust you, what your work product is like, can I work with you? What’s this going to be like?

And so you got to keep saying yes because you never know what an assignment is going to be a really cool opportunity. And if you say no, you might be missing out on something that you really wanted to learn. But it also sounds kind of like workaholic. And so I think that there’s a balance there, so take that for what you will, but I would never just give a hard no. And I watched people do that, so I wouldn’t do that. And I think that was one thing that made me pretty successful. I was also always here.

Liz Lenivy:

I feel like this is such a weird, it’s not a weird question, it’s a good question, but it makes for that really awkward answer of, well, here’s why I’m so excellent and I think thats something I’m here for it. I asked it intentionally. We as women oftentimes struggle with, because I’m trying to think of, well, I don’t know Amy, what made me a good clerk?

Amy Gunn:

You cared about your work product. I loved your English major undergrad because I never doubted that you could structure a sentence, structure the hell out of a sentence and understood how to write and how to create prose and tell a story and all those things, which I’m sure you never even considered being part of your skillset. But that was really important to me in addition to just the easy things, which were you showed up, you were pleasant. Sometimes it’s really that easy. I think about mean for me to answer that question, I have to go way back in time, but I don’t think the things that make you a successful clerk change. So in that question, I imagined myself. I got an offer at the end of my summer after second year of law school, I clerked and got the offer at the end of the summer.

And I can tell you right now, I was not the best writer. I was good and deliberate about trying to do a good job, but I just loved every minute of it. And I loved being in an office. All I wanted to do was be a lawyer. I loved having the opportunity of almost being a lawyer. I smiled, I said hello to people when I walked down the hallway and the comment, I remember getting from one of the named partners, I don’t remember the good job on your motion for leave to file, whatever. I remember, you’re just so pleasant. We like your smile. And maybe that was sexist. I don’t know. I didn’t take it that way. I took it to mean you are a team player and you’re the kind of person we want on our team. And so Liz, that’s the impression that I got.

That’s what I look for. I think people can be taught how to practice law. You got to show up, you got to put in the time, you got to be smart, you got to be committed. But when I think about what makes a real successful member of the firm that you’re in, it’s that it’s somebody I want to spend time with. But I can’t help but have that in my mind when I talk to clerks in the summer program or thereafter, because again, I think you can learn how to practice law. So that’s Liz. I sort of transitioned from you to me and I apologize.

Liz Lenivy:

No, no, no. And I appreciate that because I feel like I wrote down two things and it didn’t feel like necessarily, this is why I think I got hired. It’s what makes a clerk stand out to me that I also hope that I have done in my own career, which is hopefully reflective of why I’m here now. But the two things were one, how do you treat people? Because that is a big thing if you are constantly in disputes with other staff members, with other clerks. And I will gladly say that that has rarely happened, but there have been incidents where maybe someone doesn’t just, there’s a personality conflict there, but that’s something that I remember and it’s something that if we had to take time out of our day to try to constantly be solving some sort of interpersonal problem, that’s not something we want to deal with.

It’s not going to go away when you become a lawyer and how you treat people is so important. And I don’t think we have that problem here, but I have to imagine maybe some other people have this problem where you feel like you’re a LawClerk and you’re a law student, you’re going to be a lawyer. There’s a lot of things to take pride in that, but you don’t have to treat people poorly because of the opportunities you have and the opportunities you will have and the way you treat the named partner and the way you treat the newest staff member, assistant or paralegal or whoever. There should not be that wide of a gap between those two. So that’s one, how you treat people. And two, can you match my energy when it comes to this job? And are you enthusiastic? Are you energetic? Are you showing up?

Are you saying yes? How often in this job do we actually get to say no? Very rarely. And it’s to your own detriment, your peril to your own detriment to say no. And I’m thinking about, I’ve had a couple opportunities in the last couple of weeks that leading up to it, I kind of dreaded of why did I do this to myself? I’m creating more work for myself. And then immediately after getting it done, I’m like, I learned so much from that. I’ve built this relationship. I’m a better lawyer for it. Maybe I’m a better person for it, but that is what I want to know is if I say yes to things and if I take on hard tasks, are you willing to match my energy? And that’s what I want to see in a LawClerk. And that’s what I think all of the lawyers who work here have. We all have that same sort of hunger and drive to do the job. And so saying yes, doing the hard things, that is what I think makes a good LawClerk and that is why I hope that I’m here.

Erica Slater:

And when I kind of reflect on my own clerkship versus having clerks here each year for the last 10 years, I kind of think of it as I don’t ask any clerk or any staff member or paralegal or whatever to do anything that I wouldn’t be willing to do. And I think we don’t deal with a lot of egos and entitlement among the law clerks, but just understanding that nothing’s above you and wanting to get into the grunt work and get your hands dirty. I think that’s the approach I take to most things. And when I was clerking here, I clerked with another gal that I was in law school with who is one of our colleagues at another firm now, and we’ve kept in good touch with her and both of us I think, and Amy, I hope you would agree, I think both of us had this impression of this is our work.

This isn’t like us sitting here taking tasks. When we would be in our little room together working on things, we’d be talking about our cases and felt very responsible as part of the team about what you had assigned us. So it’s not just like, Hey, let me write a motion. In that case you would bring us in to whatever case we were each working on and we’d get to go to the mediation on that case or we’d get to go to a hearing on the motions that we wrote. And I just felt very engaged in our work. But also I feel like this is a negative term. Maybe you guys will come up with a positive one, but I’m like a professional busy body. I made it my business to know everybody, meet the other attorneys, and each year I feel like I personally get to know maybe a third of the clerks and know them by name and have had an opportunity to trade stories with them.

But I felt that I had that with most of the attorneys the year I clerked and we were as big then as we are now. So really seeking out engaging the people I was working with because I saw that as making connections and starting my network. And I think that that has been, that’s something that that’s part of your personality sometimes I think I can think of me being a busy body in most interactions in my life and when anyone finds a positive word for that, so I don’t have to keep disparaging myself here, let me know. But I think that being a mentee, your mentor if you will, should never have to be chasing after you to engage that relationship. I always think you should be thinking about how you can take initiative and further that connection, which will lead to the best outcome and just grow your network from there. So at this point, we have all had year after year group of clerks that we’ve worked with among those people, what do you guys find are the traits or characteristics of those standout clerks? I’m thinking of the people I’ve worked with for the past 10 years and there’s a handful of people who really stand out and I see them in practice now and they’re like the standout people. And I mean I guess that has to do with they were always going to be successful, but what do you see as the differentiator? I

Liz Lenivy:

Mean, I feel like it kind of goes back to what I had mentioned earlier about someone that matches my energy. I think so much of this job, especially on our side of the V, we are often the ones that are driving the litigation. So we have to think creatively. We have to, I think, dig deeper to figure out where we are going with our case. And so the people that I think really stand out to me as far as just really stellar clerks are the ones that have shown that ability that they’re already digging deeper, they’re already thinking outside of the box and they’re coming to me with that feedback. They want to know what I think about it. I think clerks will oftentimes try to think about other ideas, but maybe they don’t necessarily want to speak up about it for whatever reason. I’m always impressed by sometimes an idea that a second year law student will have on a case that I, again, very narrow on my focus on thinking I didn’t think about that. So I want this to be a collaborative team effort. And so when someone shows that they also feel that this is a collaborative team effort, those are the ones that I’m like, boy, when you get out of here, I can’t wait to see where your career is going to go.

Erica Slater:

So funny you said that. I’m thinking specifically of one clerk I had three years ago and I had this crazy case against an amusement park that had to do with seasonal workers and I asked her to research, she had the discovery before we took the corporate rep deposition and I gave her the training PowerPoints and stuff that they gave me and I said, can you just look into this and see if you can find out any more information about what the training is or whatever. She comes with Reddit threads from people talking about, Hey, I’m thinking about picking up this seasonal work. Does anybody, what was your experience? I mean it was hearsay, but it informed my mind people saying They give you no training, you’re just thrown out there. It’s terrible. The interaction with the customers was terrible. And I mean that’s just one example and she MacGyver everything in this case.

And I was like, I feel like the elder millennial I am who only hit social media at the end of college because she was just one step from the dark web to figuring out everything I needed to know. And she had so many more resources that I wasn’t thinking of tapping into and I felt much more prepared because she found much more information about what we were talking about. I’m sure any lawyer listening has been in the situation where you’re going in to take a deposition and you knew nothing about this industry. You’ve tried your best, but you are going to spend the first 2030 minutes just understanding the nomenclature or something. And that’s how I was with this particular Carney situation almost that I had clown case. It sure is.

Liz Lenivy:

You’ve heard about your

Erica Slater:

Clown case. Yeah, and I mean I am going to have to tap my former clerk and be like, you need to listen to this episode of the podcast because I was singing your praises anyway and she’s doing great now. And I’ve talked to some of the people she works with and she’s doing the same thing, coming up with creative ideas or ways to, whether it’s witness research or getting into threads and blogs about what’s really going on in an area where an accident. And so I am really proud of her career and honestly the things I learned from her,

Amy Gunn:

I think we’re kind of looking at mentee, young, inexperienced kind of finding their way, lean into who you are and what you bring to the table for being that person, particularly the technology. I don’t have any social media. I don’t know if LinkedIn counts or not, but I don’t even remember my password at this point. And I mean, I have lots of reasons why I don’t want to do it and it’s all there, but that does put up a barrier for me to understanding it. Really, I’m not on it. I don’t really know how we make it work. And so I look to the younger lawyers here and our younger clerks to sort of help me out in that way. And it just occurred to me, Erica, when you said that that really is an asset that older people like myself really need. So lean into that.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think one other piece of advice I have is I’m always looking for self-starters. I want clerks to be able to solve their own problems before they bring them to me. And I think the best way to do that is to befriend the paralegals and the other staff on your team. A lot of the times they know almost just as much as the lawyers they work for and they can help get you out of a bind if you ever find yourself in one. So make sure to be really nice to those people and befriend them. You never know when you might need them and they can certainly be great resource for you.

Liz Lenivy:

Also, the paralegals talk to the attorneys. It reminds me of everything I’ve ever heard from any judge when we talk about etiquette, their number one rule every single time, be nice to my clerk. If you’re not nice to my clerk, I’m going to know it’s going to get around. And I think that that is great advice for incoming LawClerk. It’s just be nice to everyone around you. It’s not only just going to serve you better, but it’s also going to help your reputation.

Amy Gunn:

So it occurs to me that maybe we should give a couple of top pieces of advice both to the mentors who are listening and to the mentees who are listening. So I’ll go first to the mentor. My two top pieces of advice are to take the mentee to a depo, a mediation, a court hearing to an actual thing. And I know we talk about that a lot and a lot of times the summer starts out that way and then by the end of the summer it feels like it tapers off a little bit. But I’m going to try to be really inclusive in terms of even if it’s a lot of times we do zoom depos now, but there’s still utility in that and it kind of breaks up the day. I remember being a LawClerk and even if I got to go to court once a week, it was like the highlight of the week because you’re out of the office and you put on different clothes.

And so I would say best piece of advice for a mentor is actually get that person to something that is actually law, practicing law, and then to the mentee. My best advice is you got to ask questions, but here’s the caveat to that. If you have an assignment and you’re not sure what the answer is, my advice is always to have a few answers. Here’s my question, I think the answer is A, B or C. What do you think? Versus just walking in saying, I don’t know what to do, what should I do? Because that shows that you’re actually thinking through the problem. You’re just not exactly sure if you’re going the right direction. So those are my two little bits of advice.

Erica Slater:

So I would say when giving my top advice to someone who is approaching being a mentor, I would encourage them not to see it as a chore or something that is a burden that you have to do or force yourself to do. I wouldn’t underestimate how much you can get out of that relationship even though you may be the more experienced person who seems like it’s you that are providing the benefit of the relationship. So like Elizabeth, you and I are several years in practice apart. I’m not sure if I’d go around saying, this is my mentee, I’m her mentor. But that’s how our relationship started, especially when you were a younger clerk. Every day we hang out, I get so much from our relationship, even in the portions of our interaction that are where you might be coming to me for something. I’ve learned so much from you.

I’ve gained a lot in my practice about how to approach things because our attitudes and demeanor are a little different and I gain a lot from that and I’ve learned a lot from you. So that’s just one example. And I found that in most of my relationships where I’m more traditionally the more experienced person or person further along in practice. So I would encourage anyone to sign up for that mentorship program in your organization or if your firm has a formal structure to engage in that with an open mind. As far as my advice for mentees, I think that you can’t necessarily teach this, but if you know you’re in the right place, you’ll have the enthusiasm to take the initiative every day and ask, what can I do? What’s going on? And stay engaged. And if you have no appetite for that or you’re bored and completely disengaged, I’m not saying look for a different profession.

I’m saying look for a different spot. Because as a mentee, if you’re being inspired and guided your work product and your engagement will reflect that. So now if you’re feeling stressed out by it, work through it and keep that engagement and enthusiasm and don’t let the stress of drinking through a fire hose and learning things for the first time blow out your flame on what your goal is and why you got into any profession in the first place. So I guess in a nutshell, have the enthusiasm. Always assess it and work hard to keep it because that’s what will encourage you to engage.

Liz Lenivy:

So my top piece of advice for mentors is to have the conversation early and set the expectations early on in the relationship with the mentee as far as what you expect from them, but also what they should expect from you. And I think it’s a good way to start off the relationship on the right foot, but also sort of create a benchmark by which to hold yourself to. And that is something that I feel like I’ve gotten better with over the years trying to have this conversation. It’s also part of it just I’ve gone through so many classes of clerks at this point that I know what the expectations are for them and also I tell them and I encourage them, hold me to it. Part of the struggles with this job is we get so busy and our focus becomes so narrow that we kind of forget about anything on the periphery.

And an expectation I have for you is to sort of remind me when I need to be doing something for you. And on the opposite end of that, once you have made that contact, now it is for you to hold me to that. I should be there to give you advice. But sometimes with trials, when things get really busy, we’re just going to forget and it is up to you to remind me of it. And I know that feels a little bit like a cop out, and I’m hoping it’s not, but it’s something that at least I tell them early on, this is not intentional. This is not, you’ve not done anything wrong. It’s just sometimes this job, we lose focus on things that aren’t directly in front of us. It’s not that deposition I have to take tomorrow. It’s not that trial that I have to get ready for next week.

And if it’s not the thing that’s right in front of me, I’m going to forget it. So come and talk to me about it. And I have an open door policy, which means you are always welcome to come and talk to me, and I will always do my best to be, I will always do my best to be accommodating for you because I want you to get as much as you can out of that relationship. And the flip side of that is also my top advice for mentees is to seek out that feedback is to try to, Amy, you mentioned your top advice for mentors is to make sure that we’re taking them out to depositions and court hearings. I share my calendar with my law clerks. They can see when I have something come up, come and talk to me about it. I’m never going to, unless it’s something that I’m like, no, sorry, you can’t go to that because I have to fly to Florida, so I can’t justify paying for your plane ticket, get down to Florida. But almost always I’m able to take a LawClerk to wherever it is that I’m going. So take that initiative in seeking out these opportunities for yourself as well. And I think that if you do that, that is the best way to guarantee a successful clerkship.

Elizabeth McNulty:

My top piece of advice for someone who’s going to be a mentor is to keep your mentee involved in the cases they’re working on or the projects they’re working on over the long-term arc of whatever kind of role they’re in. That was something that I really appreciated when I was clerking. Not just felt like I was getting these assignments, but felt like a real valued member of the team. And I think when someone feels like that, they’re more apt to do better work for you. I think that that’s just kind of a known thing. They feel personally invested in it and it makes you feel more kind of like a real lawyer even though you’re not as a clerk. So I really appreciated that. And it’s harder, especially if you find yourself as a younger lawyer. It’s not top of mind to keep your clerk routinely involved in the day to day, but just keeping them involved in when cases or going to mediation, stuff like that, I think was helpful advice to clerks.

My biggest piece of advice kind of for their clerkship and for the success of their careers, get comfortable being uncomfortable at this point. They’ve probably at least completed the first year of law school and that kind of anxiety of that has probably worn off a little bit. And then starting a new job is stressful, but then being a lawyer is also stressful. And so you got to just have to get used to being a little bit uncomfortable. And I think the sooner you get used to that and the sooner that kind of gets you excited and ready to work, I think the better that will serve you in the long run.

Amy Gunn:

I thought of one more bit of advice for the mentees and it is to look around at your fellow clerks and do your best to get to know them as well. I remember the three other lawyers that I clerked with that summer between second and third year law school, and it’s just a bonding experience. You are figuratively in the trenches with these folks going through the same thing, having the same anxieties, having same questions and concerns, and don’t consider them your competition because they’re not. These are folks that just like many of your fellow classmates in law school, these are folks that you will share a special bond with. And I would just really encourage the law clerks to do your own things together. Sometimes you don’t have to wait for a firm sponsored event. I remember some of those as being some of the best times of the summer, sort of an impromptu, let’s go get a drink after work with those fellow clerks. And I remember that even now. So that’s a little bit extra little piece, a little free tip at the end.

Erica Slater:

I think I heard Go have yourself good time even though you’re working hard. Thank you for joining us for our two part discussion about mentee and ment relationships. We’ll catch you next time on Heels in the Courtroom. Our episodes drop every two weeks and can be found wherever you get your podcast. Thanks.

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