EP 807- Mentorship with John Simon Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Mary Simon:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. This is Mary Simon and we are picking up where we left off from our discussion on mentors with John Simon and Erich Vieth. So this will be part two, a continued discussion on mentorship.

Erich Vieth:

I’d like to say a word about imposter syndrome because there’s a moment where you graduated. You haven’t done anything as a lawyer yet, so the next thing you’re going to do, you’ve never done, not in real life, you might’ve done it in a classroom, but you haven’t done it. And I think that’s a big part of being a mentor or being mentored is that it’s somebody who can tell you, you can do it. Get in there, do the thing you haven’t yet done. And you got to, and John, it even scales up at the firm. I remember we had things come in where I would come to you and say, Hey, here’s this thing. Is this something we do? And you said, we’re trial lawyers, so yeah, we do it now we plug in the substantive law, let’s do it. And there was this hesitancy by me thinking, well, but then the answer is go study it, go research it, go talk to other lawyers who do these things.

We have the tools for doing things we have never done. And I’m sure you still have to this day you have new cases coming in where you haven’t yet handled something quite like that and that’s what we do. So anyway, being a mentor I think is almost, it is like an antidote to the imposter syndrome or that hesitancy that I’m about to do something I’m not completely comfortable with. And I find that mentors through my life have always said, give it a try. That’s how you learn. You figure it out. What’s the worst that can happen?

Mary Simon:

There was a law student who asked me before how to get a mentor or who do you pick as your mentor? And a lot of the stuff that I’m hearing from you Erich and also dad, is there are things that you don’t, don’t have to feel like you need to go ask someone, will you be my mentor? You just touch base with the same person over and over and kind of get together with them. If you work at the same office with them, go shadow them for a deposition or when they go to court. And the mentors that I have in my life, I’ve told them they are my mentors. I consider you a mentor. I’ve said that to people and it’s not something that I need to ask them. They are whether or not they like it or not, they’re people that I look up to and get advice from. So you don’t have to make it this rigid thing where you’re asking someone to do it. It can just happen kind of organically.

John Simon:

We’re all talking about people who took the time to teach us and mentor us. What about those of us who are able to mentor somebody else? I think the best way to become a mentor is to reach out to people and ask ’em questions and meet them and talk to them. Somebody comes back from a deposition. I was at a deposition as a very young lawyer and I got done with the deposition and the other lawyer who I had met for the first time said, Hey, you got some time. Let’s go have a cup of coffee. And we did. And he was maybe 10, 15 years older than me, maybe a little older than that. But we developed a pretty good relationship over the years. Had other cases where we were against each other. It was just kind of neat reaching out like that. And I’ve tried to do that, but a lot of times it’s meeting some of the younger lawyers on cases and talking to them or pulling them out and

Mary Simon:

So forth. And I also think it is just a matter of reaching out. I think if you want to be a mentor and it’s good to do that, I think it only increases your own practice in your own career if you take the opportunity to mentor others. It’s almost like accountability a little bit if you’re going to reach out to someone and see it through. I have a friend who I will review her resumes, I’ll talk to her before she goes in interviews at firms. We’ll touch base every couple months on the phone. We don’t live in the same state. So every couple months we’ll touch base on the phone and she’ll run through questions that she’ll have about where she works or professional relationships or even negotiating going into a new job and negotiating salary. Or we’ll just have conversations of, Hey, should I say this?

Should I not say this? In your experience, how does this play out? And those are conversations that I check in with her as well. So I think in order to be a mentor, you really need to let the person know that you’re not only there to help them however they need to, but also check in with them on the things you are helping with. We will have law clerks, former law clerks, reach out to us and say, Hey, I’m interviewing at this firm. Do you know anyone who works there? You can send back an email and say, yeah, they’re fantastic. That’s one way to do it. Another way to do it is to pick up the phone, call the student or the clerk who’s talking to you, explain what your relationship is with that other firm, what you know about that firm. Ask them when the interview is, then connect with the law firm that they’re going to go interview at. Let them know that you have made that connection. Follow up with them afterwards and see how it went. You have to think about all the things that we love about our mentors and be that for somebody else. And it’s kind of one of those things where they’re going to pick up that you have an interest in their success. And I think that just goes a really long way.

Erich Vieth:

For instance, at St. Louis University, I teach as an adjunct too. I also mentor a young woman in Chicago through an organization that they assign people to young people who might need a mentor. And those are nice because they fix you up with someone who’s looking for this kind of thing. And the secret weapon is listening. It’s really hard to do sometimes because we know so much. We’ve been so much, we have all kinds of stories, but I really enjoy where I remind myself, don’t talk so much. Just ask them a few questions and listen to them. They chew through it while you’re listening. They’re figuring it out as you go with very little input by you sometimes. And that’s one of the best parts of teaching is to get the conversation going in class A sound where they’re talking to each other, trying to figure what just happened here? Oh, there’s a conflict of interest. Oh, what do we do about it and how do we proceed? And you can hear the gears clinking in their heads and it’s wonderful. So part I would just add that that’s part of the Toolkit is to sometimes not be just ready to throw all these great ideas at ’em, but also to remember to cool it sometimes and let them

Mary Simon:

Do their thing. It’s mentoring is not about problem solving for somebody else. It’s empowering someone else to do their own problem solving. Is that what it comes down to is being able to be that sounding board and putting it back on them.

Erich Vieth:

Some of the best moments in the civil trial practice class is to share a story where something went wrong. I mean, they’ll listen to me talk about how to do something here. You do A, B, C, get this done. Right? But when you’re saying one time I had a case where it didn’t go well, we tried it, we lost the case, things got messed up, they’re all listening. I mean, it’s just like there’s no better way to get everybody staring straight at you going, tell me what happened. I don’t want to, this

Mary Simon:

Was horrible. Get this. Yeah, then they’re all going to be listening. It was interesting listening to some of the stuff that my dad was talking about with George being his mentor. Clearly in some respect, I’m a descendant of the George Fitzsimmons mentorship because some of that kind of trickles down. I’m assuming that the folks who are listening to this podcast are that a lot of them probably have more years on me practicing law, but can probably appreciate some of the biggest, most helpful feedback that I’ve gotten from my dad as my mentor is don’t let the highs get too high and don’t let the lows get too low. That has really kept me to be able to be resilient and persevere through cases. Another one that is a lesson that is hard learned is the week before trial does not belong to you, period. That’s it.

It just doesn’t. And if anyone who’s listening to this podcast, you hasn’t experienced that yet, you will. I’ll just say you will. And another one that I really, really appreciate is that preparation is the great equalizer. I remember when my dad told me that when I first started practicing, one of the benefits of working at this office is that you are given cases and expected to handle them. And it does not matter whether or not you go into the Courtroom and you’re the youngest attorney by 10 years. It doesn’t matter. It’s just about preparation and preparation is the great equalizer. And that has really had a fantastic impact on me and my career so far of just knowing that there’s no amount of experience that can stop me from being prepared in any circumstance.

Erich Vieth:

Mary, I would add a couple iss, I guess that’s what you call

Mary Simon:

Them. Yeah, they’re mentor iss of John Simon.

Erich Vieth:

And one is the best cure for anxiety is hard work. Yes. It’s just, and it’s all about relationships. I’ve heard that and I’ve seen it in action. One more, and this is not something John that you told me, but we do it here at this firm is always be upbeat and optimistic. When you go in the room and you know you’re about to walk into a hornet’s nest, there’s a lot of tension there, a lot of money at stake and people worried. It’s a carnival of anxiety. Just go in happy. It’s like every time just go in and shake hands. Hey, how you doing? You take the lead, set the tone, and it’s always the best approach for every situation.

Mary Simon:

I think I was maybe two years out from law school and I remember going to a deposition with my dad and there it was a med mal case and the other side has probably like 20 experts and we’re on our way to take this deposition and it’s a couple hours out of town. And I knew in my head that there was going to be all this feedback from the other attorney about scheduling and future arguments and all these issues that were going to be taken up and all this stuff. And I remember my dad telling me on the way, I was like, Hey, just so you know, he’s going to ask about this and he’s going to ask about this. And we’ve been emailing back and forth and I remember my dad telling me, save your arguments for the judge. You going back and forth with him over email.

It is doing nothing for you other than taking your time. Just stop and say, I’ll be happy to take it up with the judge. Save your arguments for the court. In other words, don’t get into little mini battles with folks that just, you don’t need to be doing it. And we showed up to the deposition and deposition went great. I am sitting there and the deposition’s coming to an end, we’re leaving and I think it was around Thanksgiving or something and we were leaving and the other attorney approaches me after the deposition ended and was like, Hey Mary, we’ve been talking about this motion and I’m going to have an issue with these things and this is what I’m going to file and this is what I’m going to do. And my dad and I knew that was going to happen. I didn’t know how to not get into it with the guy. And my dad just went, you know, why don’t you just relax, have a good Thanksgiving with your family, tell your family I said, happy Thanksgiving, enjoy the holiday. We’ll just regroup and talk about it later. No problem. And he went, well, okay John, I’ll see you later. And we left. And I was like, alright. That’s

Erich Vieth:

How

Mary Simon:

That’s done. That saved an hour done. Yes. And I learned much because it diffuses moments where you are arguing about something that you don’t have to be arguing about, sitting there for another hour talking about motions that might be filed six months from now. That is not something that we have the benefit of time on our hands to be doing. So it was a great lesson learned and I’ve used that later. I just had an opportunity to try a case with my dad a couple of weeks ago in St. Louis County. And the other attorney would email me all the time and I got to a point about six months into the case that went on for quite some time, I would just email back and say thank you. And that’s all I would say. I’ve read it, I’ve acknowledged it, but there’s nothing I can possibly say in this moment that would be productive to me or my client, and those are going to be my focus. So I would just say thank you for the message.

Erich Vieth:

So again, I would say a lot of being a mentor is showing, not telling. And so what you saw though was an artful deflection because he wanted to talk about that thing about X. And John came in with his happy optimism, happy

Mary Simon:

Thanksgiving.

Erich Vieth:

Hey, it pretty clever. And it worked and it saved time.

John Simon:

I was actually trying to wish him a happy Thanksgiving.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, that’s

Erich Vieth:

Right. I take it all back. Yeah,

Mary Simon:

No, a hundred percent. But it’s saving arguments for the court is such in being a plaintiff’s attorney time that is

John Simon:

How often do you ever change somebody’s mind?

Mary Simon:

Oh my gosh.

John Simon:

And by the time actually, if you’re going to talk about it, the time to talk about it is when you’re standing in the Courtroom to the judge in front of the judge, then that’s time to talk about it. But

Erich Vieth:

The happy Thanksgiving was so much better than just saying save it for the judge, which would’ve been a killer. And

Mary Simon:

The message is never save it for the judge. Thank you so much. I hear it sounds like you’re really concerned about that. We’ll cross that bridge when we get there. See you at the next deposition. And that is such a productivity and time saver for us. And it also just keeps us, the focus is the client and what’s what’s best for the client. Getting the client from A to B and me emailing 30 minutes back and forth with a lawyer about a motion that he’s thinking about filing in the next couple weeks is not something that I need to be doing. And I wouldn’t have done that had I not had that experience with my dad.

Erich Vieth:

So one thing I want to open up as another version of this topic. When I worked for you for 10 years, one of the best things looking back is the clerk program. And it’s somewhere between formal and informal mentorship. Like here they are, they’re here to learn. John, could you talk a little bit about why that became such an important prominent part of your firm is to have this rather large group of clerks come and work with the lawyers?

John Simon:

Well, I mean obviously the practical side is that we get help. You have a LawClerk, but the flip side too was we have 12 law clerks usually each attorney pretty much has their own LawClerk. And what I’ve always wanted to do is make it kind of a two-way street. I mean, we get work and productivity from the law clerks, but I always tell ’em the clerks when they get here the first day or when I meet them, the flip side is you’re going to get out of this what you put into it. And if you just sit in your office or the cubicle or whatever and do research, you’re not going to get as much as you would going out attending depositions, attending motions, even if the lawyer you’re working for doesn’t have something that week. Find out what’s going on in the office. If we have a trial, be there for opening, we’re going to watch some of the cross-examination.

And the really cool thing about it is, I can’t tell you the number of former law clerks we’ve had that have come through here, but it’s well over 200. It’s well over, it’s probably more like 250 to 300 law clerks. And there are former law clerks of mine in this firm who are judges, managing partners at firms around town. When I see them one year later or two or five or 10 or 15, I’d like to smile and shake their hand and have something to feel good about it. And I think the clerks have a pretty good, we try to make it a good experience. I think most of the students that come out of law school, especially the ones in the top part of the class, hardly any of ’em go do plaintiff stuff. They all go to the big defense firms because that’s where they get the most money and it’s an economic thing.

I get it. I understand. And they don’t see the other side of the civil practice. And so we get some terrific, terrific law clerks, I mean top of the class. And they know coming in, it isn’t a full-time gig. There’s not a full-time job waiting for you. I think they start in their second year and work till the end of their third year. So it’s about a year and a half or so. And they’ll work full-time during the summer and part-time during the school year. It’s really something that a lot of those law clerks have come back later and after they’ve gone to work for a defense room for four or five years, end up going to do plaintiff stuff. And actually we’ve rehired three or four of our law clerks, I think three or four of the attorneys who work here, our law clerks, but they didn’t start right out of school.

They went and worked somewhere else. And then when we had a slot to fill, we went back and actually called them and talked to ’em because we knew ’em. But it’s neat. It’s a real cool vibe. I think it makes things a little more energetic around here. And I love watching the law clerks learn, challenging them, pushing them with our trial. Typically when we track case opening statement close or whatever, we’ll see almost all the law clerks from the sitting in the back of the Courtroom. And so we certainly get a lot out of them and I just hope that they get as much or more from their experience

Mary Simon:

And it’s built in, whether it’s formal, informal mentorship. I can’t think of a time where one of the law clerks who I’ve worked with hasn’t reached out to me. I’m in regular communication with any clerk who’s ever worked with me. And I like to think that that has some reflection of their experience at this office of knowing that the door still open for them to reach out. And it is. It just really is a good program. And we have a conscious effort here of letting the clerks know if there is something that you want to be doing or any type of work that you want to be getting involved with, say the word. We’ve got the work

John Simon:

We do a lot of in-House seminars here. When we have a case going out and we want to do the opening, we will literally as the conference room that we have seats 50 people or so 60 people. And we will present it to not just the staff, but the law clerks and get everybody’s feedback and make changes based on that. We’ve got some pretty harsh critics here, and that’s all part of it too. I mean, I would like to think in a small way that we’re help developing the next generation of really, really good lawyers.

Erich Vieth:

It keeps us learning too, to teach. We think about teaching and helping, but every time you’re in a good discussion with somebody, you’re supposedly teaching. You’re learning too. You’re rehashing things and you’re questioning yourself as hearing the words come out of your mouth and then you’re stopping, you’re going. But then again, this, and it’s a reciprocal process of benefits going both ways.

Mary Simon:

I remember leaving a deposition and my clerk asked me, why didn’t you ask him more about whatever the topic was? And it does kind of put it back on you to think, how do I explain why I didn’t need to ask six more questions about something after getting an admission? But it’s nice to have that. It always keeps you on your toes, always keeps you thinking. You got to be able to explain that to someone who’s learning because they are sitting there wondering, why didn’t she ask these next

John Simon:

Couple questions and think about how much of what we do is learned on the job. I think 90% of what we do day to day is learning on the job

Mary Simon:

More.

John Simon:

Yeah. When you get that law degree, I mean, you need it and it’s valuable and you can’t do what we do without it. But if that’s all you have, I mean, think day one, what you really know how to do. Not much unless you’ve clerked somewhere or watched. And for me, as when I first started out, I would watch lawyers all the time. I would go up to argue a motion or file something in the courthouse, and I would go in other courtrooms and watch. And I didn’t know exactly why, but one of the attorneys would be very, very good, very effective. And I knew it immediately. And the other one not so effective. And what really intrigued me was why, what is it? I couldn’t pinpoint it at the time, but I knew, look, there’s a way to do this that’s really, really good and effective and there’s another way that ain’t so hot.

And whatever that real good way is, I need to figure that out and learn more about it. And I was trying cases with lawyers on my side, like to help be the second or third chair, and we’d be up against some really good plaintiff’s lawyers when I was doing defense stuff. And I remember taking notes from what the plaintiff lawyer was doing. It just seemed way, way more effective. But no, it’s all learned and you learn it by fumbling and stumbling through it by yourself and making a lot of mistakes. Or you learn it by watching somebody who knows how to do it and is willing to take the time to talk to you about it. And I think that’s the definition of what a mentor is.

Mary Simon:

Well, thanks so much you guys for another fantastic discussion on mentorship that wraps this up on part two. Thanks everyone for listening to Heels in the Courtroom. Remember our episodes drop every other Wednesday, and if you have any comments or questions, please feel free to reach out to us at comments at heels in the Courtroom law. See you next time.

Speaker 1:

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