EP 804- Dressing Intentionally

Episode Notes

Transcript

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Amy Gunn:

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I am Amy Gunn, and today I am joined by Erica Slater and Elizabeth McNulty. Hello ladies. Hey. Hi. Today we’re going to talk about clothes. Ladies, we haven’t done this for a while, and I am prompted because I got an email from a couple of friends of mine who practice in another state, and I know them through a national organization and they have some new marketing materials that they’re getting out, some new photographs and emailed me to ask a little bit of advice about what they wear in these photo shoots and referenced our heels in the Courtroom marketing materials for our website and loved that we use color. And it got me thinking about color and when to use it when it’s too much. I know we’ve talked a few times about what to wear to cord and those kinds of things, but this is a little bit more specific about should you wear dark colors, should you wear bright colors?

St. Louis has a wonderful botanical garden and over winter, over the holiday, they have what’s called the garden glow, and it’s a lot of lights and you walk through it, it’s beautiful and it’s typically cold. So I had a little bit extra time in my hands over our holiday break before we went to the garden glow. So I picked out this outfit that included a pair of kind of light pink snow boots or wet boots. It had rained the day before and I was like, that’s close enough. Then I had a pair of hot pink corduroy pants, and a couple of years ago I bought this fake fur hot pink scarf, but it was kind of big and fluffy and it had one of those slits in it so you can put one end over the other. So it wasn’t like a full wrap around your neck.

And then I have a red ski jacket, and it was pretty cold that night, so I spent time on this. I had the light pink boots, the hot pink scarf thing, the hot pink pants and the red ski coat, and I love hot pink and red together. So I thought I was killing it. And we went with one of my real, real good friends. She knows who she is and she took one look at me and was like, that’s a lot. And she was just very much like, that’s just a lot going on. And so it got me thinking and she was right. Look, she was right. And I have shown y’all the photographs.

Erica Slater:

You

Amy Gunn:

Agree it was a lot. And so it got me thinking whether I have too much color in my wardrobe. And then this email from my friends in Wisconsin came on the heels of that. And so I’ve been thinking about color in my wardrobe and how much is appropriate? Is too much color, too bright? What should I wear to court? And oftentimes for court, I have always preached, we don’t need to look like men. We do not need to wear our dark suits and briefcase and look just like a man. I don’t think that’s to our advantage. I think in fact it takes away from some of our best abilities to stand out and to look different. But I also think it begs the question, how much color is too much color? Erica, what do you think?

Erica Slater:

Well, I have to also confess to our listeners that this entire podcast is going to be meant to disabuse you of this ridiculous notion that you shared with us from that experience of your, I don’t know, 2023 Barbie movie inspired tone OnOne winter bunny outfit. That

Amy Gunn:

Is a very good description

Erica Slater:

That you were resigning to take color out of your wardrobe, which is an awful idea for Miss Amy Gunn from Kentucky because you would do us all a disservice. Okay, good. So point number one, maybe not

Amy Gunn:

Every article of clothing has to be a different bright color. Maybe that’s okay.

Erica Slater:

Well, let’s talk about color a little bit. I love the looks recently, especially for women’s suiting of tone on tone, you have the same color or a very coordinating color under a suit, but it’s got to be a color. Nobody cares if you wear a black shirt under a black suit that you’re going to a funeral. I don’t

Amy Gunn:

Know. It can be very sophisticated, don’t get me wrong. It can be very sophisticated.

Erica Slater:

That’s a material and texture thing.

Amy Gunn:

That’s a good point, right?

Erica Slater:

Yes,

Amy Gunn:

Right.

Erica Slater:

That’s true. So you’re maybe wearing a black silk shirt under a black textured suit or even really sleek, nice material and that’s where the look comes from. But so I get where you were going with the bright pink and the red, and I don’t, here’s my double negative. I do not support it, but I wouldn’t go as far as say I support it. Yes, case, my case. It’s a case by case, but I think that you can communicate a lot with color, especially when you’re dressing up professionally for women. Here’s the snotty thing I’m going to say. When I think about my own clothes journey, my professional

Amy Gunn:

Ball team, we’ve well had one,

Erica Slater:

Everyone needs an Elizabeth in the room too. She is eye rolling me hard. But when I was younger and started practicing, obviously a lot of resources were not going towards my wardrobe. The goal was to be appropriate and professional and have the right clothes in the moment or that’s what I focused on as opposed to being able to buy nice pieces or things that you can do great stuff with the professional wardrobe. It does not have to be boring or not expressive of who you are. I haven’t necessarily found all those options. When I was my first couple of years of practice running into J Crew factory and an Taylor outlet even I was trying to fill in, I need a suit that fits that is an updated cut or something like that. But lo and behold, those suits were in charcoal and black and kind of drab navy. Usually once in a while I had some sort of flare, maybe a pin stripe or something in there that was like, okay, I’ve updated. But as I’ve gotten older and developed my own personal style a little bit more, I think especially in suiting, taking it up to a color that is like gem tones or something like that, that I think gives you a finish and has more of a elevated feel and look and looks like something that is more personal than kind of matching the suiting colors that you’re going to see from the boys.

Amy Gunn:

And I think it does take more effort. You could go online and get a black suit or a gray suit or a blue suit. You could walk into the same stores, the Ann Taylors, the J crew out there and find that suiting. And especially with Covid, it’s not as easy as used to be to find suits. And we have talked about you don’t have, I don’t even wear suits very often. I wear dresses with a blazer and they’re very rarely matchy matchy. I have some, but not a lot that are matchy matchy. So that’s where you can mix the colors. I have a cream dress that I love putting different colored blazers with, and I’ve been joking recently that I want to wear something like white or cream at every trial because white is the color of good, right? We’re the good guys, we’re the

Erica Slater:

Good girls. I don’t wear a hat because it wouldn’t go with my outfit, but here’s my dress, right?

Amy Gunn:

You probably get a white fascinator, I dunno. But that’s the subtle

Erica Slater:

You Kentucky girls,

Amy Gunn:

I think the jury fascinators

Erica Slater:

On that.

Amy Gunn:

Oh, she’s good. She’s got white on. It’s good. So I like to mix and match, but it does take a lot of effort to go and I am very purposeful, and I’ve talked about this a lot. I love to shop. It’s my hobby. I will go and just find one piece that I think is a beautiful piece and take it back to my closet and Oh look, those pants look good with it or that skirt or that dress looks good with it. And if you do that long enough, then you do end up with a lot of nicer pieces. That’s what I’ve learned over the years. Quality over quantity and

Erica Slater:

Over fast fashion. It’s to the decision paralysis in your closet of a bunch of stuff that falls apart in a couple seasons is

Amy Gunn:

No, it’s not. It doesn’t

Erica Slater:

Excite you to pull it out.

Amy Gunn:

No. And it doesn’t really last, but that’s the problem with the fun, colorful things that stand out. You can’t really wear those all the time. People are going to be like, oh my God, is she wearing those pants again enough already? And so I think that’s the downside of the colorful pieces is they are memorable. And so how many seasons can you wear them before people are like, does she have any other pants?

Erica Slater:

Well, I have to say, okay, the two comments, Liz isn’t here, but I’m going to brag on her a little bit and maybe I shouldn’t have dished on our tried and true J Crew Banana and Ann Taylor Staples that took us all through our first professional wardrobes. But Liz has this beautiful, true red suit. I know you’ve got one too, and I think it was Ann Taylor. And then she’s got this beautiful hunter green suit and the cut’s beautiful. It fits her beautifully. She wears them so well. And when I see her in those suits, I notice them, but I’m never sick of ’em. Even the bright red, because she wears them so well, she accessorizes them nice. And it’s something different. It looks elevated and put together because it is a different color palette that you’re not used to seeing, but also probably incorporates really easily into her closet with shoes and stuff like that. But I’m surprised to hear from you that you buy things separately because I mean really, most of your outfits look put together as an outfit as opposed to, I think that’s where I have run into trouble is that I’ll buy one thing and then haven’t thought through, or maybe I didn’t have the right stuff previously. Haven’t thought through what might go with that.

Amy Gunn:

Well, I love having a ready-made outfit. I do love that. But when you have your red suit and your cream suit and your navy suit and your name, color, your camel suit, then that’s when I’m like, okay, I have all of these suits both in terms of skirts and in terms of pants, and I don’t want to sound like a snob. I really don’t. I just like to shop and I’m old.

Erica Slater:

It is your hobby. You and I have not argued about this, but I’ve told you on multiple occasions I’d like to achieve that look with none of the work

Amy Gunn:

Work,

Erica Slater:

Although it’s work, it’s also your hobby. Correct. And I’m not a big fan of shopping. I don’t understand that. And ordering Elizabeth,

Amy Gunn:

You’re a fan of shopping. I am,

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yes.

Erica Slater:

And you too. You Kentucky ladies, you guys use color a little differently than Elizabeth. You have a sophisticated and preppy style, but you’re always put together too. And the pieces that you bring into your clothing, I mean, you have this one coat that has that pattern on it, the blue one, which one I’m talking about every time you wear it. I’m like, love it. Wow. It looks very put together. It looks very intentional. And I think that achieving that intentional look and that you’ve put something together does take a lot of work. It does. And in my case, practice, I mean, here’s what I used to do. I’m getting away from it now, but what I used to do before any trial, especially through Covid, I would be like, what am I going to wear for every day of this week, week and a half trial? And think about it. And I’d be like, everything sucks. And I can’t think about it. So I’d go online and buy 10 things from whatever Ann Taylor outlet, Ann Taylor on sale, and I’d get all this junk and I’d be like, it works for right now. It’ll get me through trial in there. And then it lives in my closet. Well, not anymore. I got rid of it. Then it becomes your

Amy Gunn:

Trial wardrobe that you only get after trial and

Erica Slater:

It’s good. Yeah. And it’s not the stuff you love wearing. No, it’s not your go-to, it’s probably some staple stuff that you are looking like all the boys out there.

Amy Gunn:

Elizabeth, you have a trial coming up. I do. Do you have your wardrobe picked out?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I mean, I think shopping when you need something is the worst kind of shopping. Absolutely. And maybe that’s why you don’t like it because pressure shopping, you really need to always be looking out for things you can fit into your wardrobe. But just what I’ve done for a very long time, I went to

Erica Slater:

Did your mom pass that on to you too? Amy?

Elizabeth McNulty:

No, my mom hated shopping and I like it.

Erica Slater:

Oh, your mom always looks put together

Elizabeth McNulty:

Too. Yeah, well, because of me, I like that. But she would credit me that, but a lot of it is I wore a uniform for 18 years of my life, so I didn’t need to buy a lot of clothes. So when I did buy stuff, it was like the statement kind of thing. So it was stuff that stood out. But I’m also very into shoes, bags and coats. The only way you could stand out when you’re wearing a uniform. But then I never really evolved past that. And so even now my closet is full of bright stuff because it’s like, well, why would I want to buy that in black gray Navy when I could buy it in a fun color? So I think I don’t have a lot of traditional colors of anything because that isn’t a fun buy for me. So a lot of my stuff is loud, but you can work that in a different way, I think. And so you always have to be on the lookout for stuff to buy when you need it, because shopping under duress is the worst kind of thing. It is. It is. And you’ll overspend. And I don’t like doing that either you’ll

Erica Slater:

Overspend or you’ll buy too much crap. And yeah, it’s a pressure cooker, but it really is a skill. And you got to know where to shop, where not to shop and have someone who will shepherd you through.

Amy Gunn:

And most things in life, practice makes perfect. The more you practice, the better you get at it. That’s what I tell people. One point is tailoring. I like most people don’t have perfect dimensions to fit what’s on the rack. It’s close, but it needs a tuck here or hem there. Almost always, I need a hem, but I don’t buy anything now. And this is, again, part of the practice makes perfect that I don’t tailor and spend the extra of 40 bucks on the hemming. And I will even do, I’m laughing because I have this blazer on today that I have rolled up. It’s rolled up in order to see the color of the shirt underneath it versus not fitting right. If you roll it down, it still fits right and it kind of has a flare and that’s the whole point of it. But even if I have a blazer that is not supposed to be flipped up and it is over the knuckle on my thumb, like, Nope, I don’t care if it’s a hch. I will say, take it up because I can tell the difference. And now I’m sort of trained on that when I see other people like, that’s too short, that’s too long. And Sue, our producer before we started this episode had a hilarious story. And she Will you mic up, will you mic up and tell us his story? So Sue is coming down here because she, and this is totally on point, she was sitting in a jury trial not too long ago and tell us about what you saw. Sue,

Speaker 5:

The prosecuting attorney was a middle-aged woman on the younger side and came out in a caramel dress with a loud caramel black and gray animal print sleeveless jacket that went down to her knees, which was a little bit loud for the first day, but we’re like, okay, you’ve got style, I’m going with it. But she had navy pumps on and they were not good looking navy pumps. They were a little bit worn and there was absolutely not one touch of navy in her outfit anywhere. And I couldn’t get away from it. I kept looking at her and what kept going through my head was, how do you expect me to believe you if you can’t dress herself? And it was difficult. And I mean, it was a criminal case, it was a serious case. And of course, I’m not saying that that affected my decision a whole lot, but it was surprising after listening to this discussion that y’all have about it, how much it did affect me as a juror because I was distracted by that. I kept looking at her shoes or just like, you can’t be that pulled together in your case if you look like this.

Amy Gunn:

Yeah. And so that’s so interesting because on this side we talk about these things, what to wear in front of a jury, what to wear in court and guess that juries care what we’re wearing. I think I live under this idea that it matters in some way and you’re confirming it.

Speaker 5:

And the defense attorney on the other hand came in, what I would say was barely casual business dress. I mean with just a sweater and a skirt and had not tailored her clothing appropriately. And then you think, well, you’re trying to dissuade me from believing the prosecution and you’re not looking sharp. You’re looking like this’ll go my way. Maybe not. You didn’t look confident in your dress. And that was difficult too. And as she progressed through the trial on closing, she looked a lot better, a lot more pulled together. And that helped me be convinced with, okay, now she’s on. And I didn’t feel like she was on before because she was like, eh, it’s prosecution day so I don’t have to look nice. And that impacted, I’m

Amy Gunn:

So scared now. I’m so scared. I

Erica Slater:

Don’t think you’ll ever have either of those problems.

Amy Gunn:

No, thank you, Sue. It’s that, as I said, it was almost more comfortable for me to believe that this is kind of all in my head and make much a do about nothing. But that tells me that people really are watching and being distracted by things. But it also makes me worry that if I wear something big and bright, look at me, look at me, that it can be distracting. Maybe not in a good way,

Erica Slater:

But what I’m hearing from Sue’s experience, which I agree with you, Amy hearing this confirmed means we haven’t been wasting all of our time and energy thinking about this, is maybe you were expecting more gravitas, more taking the whole system more seriously. Thinking about a Courtroom, pre covid maybe versus post covid. I mean, I’ve always heard it said the Courtroom is the last formal atmosphere in professional clothing. And that rule seems to be, at least in the trial that you’re describing, Sue, very blurred. And I agree with you. I mean, if as a client, if your attorney showed up and was not really giving a thought to what their appearance and the first impressions, I’d have some thoughts about that and where I was spending my money and what was going on. And for better or worse, I think our clothing communicates so much a lot about your confidence, which you mentioned Sue, and it’s not wrong to have thought that or changed your mind, but then you had a first impression to overcome it sounds like, especially as the trial progressed and the defense attorney that you were mentioning seemed to pull that look together and the whole package came together because you just, I’m sure there’s a million women who walk this world and are as confident and capable as anything, but they may be like me and not like shopping.

But unfortunately, and I don’t think it’s a gendered thing. I think that I would have the same,

Amy Gunn:

Oh, I think it’s totally,

Erica Slater:

Well, I think it’s easier. I think it’s easier to follow a male uniform and it’s a burden and it’s a gift and a curse to have more options and follow our playbook of be yourself and take those options and wear color if that feels good on you and whatever. But I think without a doubt, your clothing communicates to others the seriousness with which you take the situation, the seriousness with which you take yourself, and you can’t get back that first impression. Now you’ll go crazy thinking about that a hundred percent of the time. I can’t tell you about how many times I’ve run into an opposing Counsel on a Saturday at Target and we’re both like, not today. It’s like I’m with my kids, I got my hair in a ponytail, I got leggings on. Let’s just not engage. Let’s pretend that we only meet each other on the battlefield with four inch heels and here we go. But it’s a 80 20 rule, which for Amy’s benefit over here is 80% of the time you’re on point 20% of the time. It can be a little Flo. Absolutely. That is the least surprising thing.

Amy Gunn:

Well ladies, I love having these because I do think it’s important, and I think Sue has confirmed that it’s important to be intentional about what you wear in court and otherwise, and I just always appreciate the feedback and I’m not sure, I’m not going to give up color. I’m not going to give up color. And so the email that I got from my friends just made me think that this is not going away, this is not solved, this is not over. Every one of every generation is still thinking and worrying about what to wear as professional women as trial attorneys. And I think you just have to be intentional and Erica, to your point, you have to be comfortable. If you don’t love red, there’s, just because Liz has a great red suit, doesn’t mean that that is the right thing for you. So you have to be comfortable. But I do really endorse the idea that it is an opportunity for women to be different, to be feminine, to be relatable to the folks on the jury, whether it’s men or women. And it is an opportunity to have an advantage. And that’s what we’re always looking for, the advantages. So thank you for joining us for another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. We drop episodes every other Wednesday and we’ll see you next time.

Speaker 1:

Heels in the Courtroom is brought to you by the Simon Law Firm at the Simon Law Firm pc. We believe in the power of pooling resources in order to create powerful results. We often lend our trial skills and experience to lawyers around the country to achieve better results for their clients. Our attorneys welcome the opportunity to work with you on your case, offering vast resources, seasoned litigators, and a sterling reputation. You can contact us at 3 1 4 2 4 1 2 9 2 9. And if you enjoyed the podcast, feel free to share your thoughts with Amy Liz Erica, Mary Elizabeth at Heels in the Courtroom Law, and subscribe today because the best lawyers never stop learning.

Continue Reading