The Long Game: Strategic Approaches to Sustaining Client Relationships with Cindy Chang

Episode Notes

Transcript

Karin Conroy:

This is Counsel Cast part of the Legal Talk Network, and I’m your host, Karin Conroy. When you face a complex case outside your expertise, you bring in a co-counsel for next level results. When you want to engage, expand, and elevate your firm, you bring in a marketing co-counsel. In this podcast, I bring in marketing experts who each answer one big question to help your firm achieve more. Here’s today’s guest.

Cindy Chang:

Hello, my name is Cindy. I am a personal brand coach and marketing strategist, and I help business owners with mostly service-based businesses, grow their brands and retain clients.

Karin Conroy:

Cindy, this is episode number two. Thank you so much for being here, and your company is called The Hustling Heart. We will kind of follow up with that at the end, just as a reminder for people also. But we had this amazing episode last time, and today we’re going to get more into the idea of relationships as part of your brand. And we’re also a little bit touching on this idea of how to leave a firm and do that in the right way, but we’re going to step into that in terms of the big picture brand. So kicking things off with the title of the episode is the Long Game Strategic Approaches to sustaining Client Relationships. And this can be tricky. I feel like it’s a hard thing to know how to keep someone engaged and aware and especially in different practice areas. So how do you first start in terms of strategy and branding, in terms of thinking about how to think about that relationship with your client?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. So I used to work for large Fortune 500 companies doing marketing before I started my own marketing business. And when I was working for other companies, I was very much in a different mindset than I am now as the business owner, I would say I had good relationships with my coworkers and vendors and folks that I worked with, customers that I sold to on behalf of my company. I would say I had good relationships with all of those folks, but those folks thought of me as someone representing the company that I was working for.

Karin Conroy:

Right? That is a really important distinction because let’s just say that we’re speaking to someone who may be considering starting their own thing or leaving a firm or in that kind of a space. And it is really, if you’ve never done this before, it is a really different thing to be a representative of a firm and a part of that versus your own business, and you are the face of that brand. I can’t even think of all of the different examples that would support this, but when I think about, okay, there’s a certain person I’m working with and I can’t remember their name, but I can remember the name of their company versus I’m working with this person and it’s their company and they are one and the same. Right,

Cindy Chang:

Exactly.

Karin Conroy:

So let’s just talk briefly about how you get started in terms of, okay, I’m working for this big company and I recognize that a lot of my visibility is tied to that. How do I start to build my own thing and my own presence separated from that?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, I think it’s such a good question. I would say firstly, you want to start thinking through your own identity in the sense of how do you want other people to remember you? What’s the impact that you want to leave? So obviously if the context of your relationship is within work, yeah, that’s okay, obviously, but can you build an identity and relationship that goes beyond the specific company that you’re working for? I’ll use myself as an example. If I am doing marketing specifically for craft, which I did work there at one point, can I take myself out of craft? And people are still like, Cindy is so good at marketing, she really knows how to sell a product. She really knows how to build a brand, and I will hire her to do that no matter what versus oh, Cindy is a great representative of craft, right? She knows a lot about the Jello brand and we want her to stand Jello forever. She has so much historic knowledge about Jello, that’s totally different.

Karin Conroy:

So how did you get that definition separated? Because I think that’s really tricky and I think there’s a good amount of people that you work with that are going to stay in that second description where she’s really good with Jello, we got to keep her around because she’s got all this historical knowledge and they don’t really go this step farther. How would you illustrate yourself and your skills as separated from Jello?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, so I think part of this is about problem solving and thought leadership. And so it’s not always about knowing the suite of services that your company offers or the approach that your company takes. It’s about you bringing your own thought leadership to every situation. It’s about you being able to engage and problem solve in every situation on behalf of your team, on behalf of your clients. That’s how you start to bring yourself into the equation where people are like, oh, yeah, I want to work with this person. I want to work with Mark because I know he’s going to solve this problem. Figure it out. Really. I was talking to my friend, another business owner in a completely different industry the other day, and we were saying how we are actually just professional problem solvers. That is actually what we do, and obviously we do it in different niches. I wouldn’t be able to solve a problem in tech, for example, but you kind of want to be that professional problem solver on behalf of your clients. So start thinking of yourself that way.

Karin Conroy:

And most attorneys are as well. Most people are going to be coming to an attorney. They have some problem. Sometimes they’re trying to prevent a problem, but more often than not, they’ve got a problem that is happening and they need help with that solution. And I will say when marketing is done correctly, the way that we do it, and I’m sure this is kind of how you start the first step. So let’s say you’re leaving a firm and you’re starting to think about that process now. So if you go through that process, you’ve left that firm and you’re hiring a marketing firm, the first step is going to be asking questions like what we are discussing right now, what do people come to you for? What are you known for? What makes you different? And then the answer would be what you’re describing, mark is a problem solver. So then we take that piece and that becomes your core strategy and what makes you different. So this is what you’re working on as you step back four steps from that answer where you are now today, you are developing that skill so that you are known for that. So that later, that is your point of differentiation.

Cindy Chang:

I love that so much, and I’m just going to build off what you said,

Karin Conroy:

Please. Yeah.

Cindy Chang:

And not all of us are good at saying what we’re good at. So sometimes honestly, ask your coworkers, ask your friends, ask people who have worked with you before, Hey, what are my strengths? How would you describe me as a coworker? And you’ll start to see common themes too. Everyone’s saying that you are really great at processes. Then you’re like, okay. So that’s kind of my point of difference. I problem solve, but I do it from a process standpoint. I just know how to build workflows. I know how to staff projects, I know how to create efficiencies, whatever. So yeah, that’s where you can kind of start to identify commonalities if it’s hard for you personally to kind of reflect and be like, well, what am I good at?

Karin Conroy:

Right? I noticed this throughout my career. I had a challenge with that. And when I would ask people for LinkedIn reviews, and also now when I ask clients for reviews, or even early on when I had my agency, when I would ask clients for reviews, I’d be like, I know what I think we’re doing well, but I want to hear it from them. And that’s like gold nuggets to when they first of all are willing to give you a review. You ask 10 people, you’ll get maybe one. And then when you get a client review, it’s often so surprising because all of a sudden it’s not totally mind blowing. They’re not telling you that you know how to fly a rocket to the moon, but oh, they really appreciated this one thing more than the other, and I thought all along it was this other thing. So it’s so important to get that feedback because you’re inside your head and you don’t necessarily know what they’re thinking or they’re feeling. So I think that’s a really good place to go. I know we want to focus this more on personal brand and brand building. So let’s step back to that person who is still thinking about this process and they haven’t made the move. They’re in that position where they haven’t made the move yet. What other tips and suggestions do you in terms of building those sustainable relationships and making them really valuable?

Cindy Chang:

So I think what we talked about starting to take stock of, I don’t like to use the word reputation all the time. I feel like it sounds very artificial, but really taking stock of your reputation within the company. Yeah. What are you known for? What do people say about you? This can do, I don’t know about law firms, how you guys do performance reviews, but this can even be something that you just start to collect data from your performance reviews or conversations you have, feedback you get from higher ups, folks like that. So yeah, starting to understand what people think about you and then see where the commonalities are and starting to lean into that. Right, or adjust it. If that’s not what you want to be known for, then that’s

Karin Conroy:

Okay too, or it’s negative in some way. Yeah, right.

Cindy Chang:

Exactly. Yeah.

Karin Conroy:

Okay. So what there suggestions in terms of actually maintaining those relationships? I mean, we’re all busy, and if we’re doing a job and also thinking about something different and have all these different thoughts, do you have any suggestions for how do we just stay on top of that? What’s a good way to make sure that it’s happening?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, this is a great question, and I will say that I think it’s twofold. One is being more than just known for work. And what I really mean by this is it really comes down, you want to have a great reputation when it comes to work, and you want people to have a clear idea of what to hire you for. That’s very important. But also, at the end of the day, people hire you because they like you. And so being able to be yourself and bring a flavor of yourself to all the conversations and people know, not necessarily personal details, but you being able to have a conversation with someone about things that you’re passionate about that don’t necessarily have to do with being in the office or whatever project you’re staffed on. I think that’s really important. That’s how you get to know somebody.

Karin Conroy:

Yes, absolutely. And you and I were talking about the two cores being reputation and relationships, and yes, they absolutely overlap, but I think especially in the legal industry, the reputation gets so much emphasis and the relationships part is, oh, that’ll just happen. So it really needs to be thoughtfully considered and nurtured. And also I think the reputation piece, if that’s overly thoughtful, if people are putting too much emphasis on that, then that can kind of damage the other side of it. Do you see that or what are your thoughts on that?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, I think where we often tend to lead when we are selling something that we’ve created, and we talked about this a little bit last time too, is we tend to lead with, well, here is what I am selling AKA, here is the work that I do, a k, a, here is my services, my reputation. Here is why you should hire me. And that’s a very rational way to communicate to somebody. So if I’m selling a car, right, I’m talking about how good the engine is. These are the kind of tires, does it have four wheel drive? Is it heated seats? All of that, right? So three, if I’m looking for a four wheel drive and heated seats, I know that I can buy this vehicle, awesome. But then why do I actually buy the vehicle? It probably comes down to, ooh, when I get in the car, the feel of the seats is so luxurious. Or when I’m driving, it’s so smooth, the sound, the surround sound of the music, oh my gosh, I can just picture myself driving to work in this and feel like a badass. That’s why I buy the car.

Karin Conroy:

Yeah, I think what I’ve read so many awesome books about the decision process, and when it comes down to it, it’s not logical. It’s emotional. So we make our decisions with our emotions, and then we justify it with logic. And so we want to know all those things. So the last couple times I went to get a car, I got spreadsheets, I’ve got it all laid out. I walk in with my research, I’ve got the numbers, I’ve got a stack of papers, but when I’m walking around in the parking lot, I’m looking at the options and I’m like, Ew, not that one. And ooh, what’s that? And it’s not, let me calculate this option versus that option. What does that one feel like? And what do I feel when I walk up to this one? So that is all relationships and building that connection and being a human and recognizing the value of the emotion in that connection or lack thereof. So you were talking about don’t overly focus on your work and the logic and the kind of statistical numbers and all of the tactics behind everything you work. So what’s another way of communicating to these clients so that you can kind of make that emotional connection and sort of validate your connection?

Cindy Chang:

So think about it this way, if I’m hiring a tutor for my kid who needs to pass the sat t so he can get into college,

And I’m like, okay, so I know this person. He’s been recommended by a friend. He has 605 star reviews, he’s a great price. He’s gotten kids into Harvard and Yale, so great option. I also know this other person who she was recommended to me by a friend, but I’ve actually seen her at a couple parties, an extended friend, and I know her daughter is also applying to the same business school that my son wants to go to. And I also ran into her at a basketball game recently. Our family is with played basketball. The other guy sounds awesome, and I think that’s great, but I’m probably going to give this woman a call because I’ve seen her recently. Actually, I have her number. So it’s like that, right? That’s how business actually gets done.

Karin Conroy:

Yes. Yeah. And then you look back and you’re like, that had nothing to do with logic, because logic would tell me to pick that other guy that I don’t know, because that would be the spreadsheet answer. But you have this feeling and you may have talked to this person and you just got some positive feelings from these conversations you had with her, and maybe you had a feeling about your son might like her also, so it’s so much more likely that’s going to happen. So let’s talk about what the value of this is. So let’s say now you’re the same person. You’re thinking about starting your own thing, and now you’ve done that, you’ve left your past firm and you’re starting your new firm. So what value does all of this kind of thoughtfulness around your personal brand and your relationships bring to this new thing that you’re doing?

Cindy Chang:

So I want to say too, it is both reputation and relationship. So we’re not saying don’t focus on your reputation of work. Obviously you need to have the body of work.

Karin Conroy:

A hundred percent. Yes,

Cindy Chang:

Yes. But we’re just saying that’s not the only thing.

Karin Conroy:

So balance. Yeah. Balance,

Cindy Chang:

Yes. So for example, when I started my business, I actually started my business as kind a side hustle passion project. I was working full-time in marketing, and I had a really great job. So when I started my business, I was doing more design, and actually I was designing wedding invitations, which

Karin Conroy:

Awesome.

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, it’s nothing really to do with marketing, but I think

Karin Conroy:

This, yeah,

Cindy Chang:

But design, but a great example because eventually my first marketing clients were other wedding vendors that I had met in the wedding industry, and why did they hire me for marketing, even though I was a wedding invitation designer, was because of the relationships that I built. So they knew I was a wedding invitation designer, but they knew I worked in marketing and they knew the way that I would show up to the job. They knew what my client experience was like. They knew how I’m able to listen and communicate with people. I’ve worked with several wedding vendors in the past. They know how I am on the job. They know I understand their business, they know I understand their clients. They know I know how to provide a great service to their clients. So then they’re like, I’m going to hire Cindy to do my marketing. She gets it, right?

Karin Conroy:

Yes. Yeah. I think I’m just going to underline really quickly because I think when people are starting a new firm or they’re looking for their next thing, they overemphasize those jobs skills and they underemphasize all that other stuff you just described. So being able to actually execute, showing up, being on time, making sure that things are done on schedule, on budget. When I’m a customer looking for something like that, that is just as important if not more important than actually the work itself. So if you have a whole pie, the work is one slice of it, but it is just a slice. There’s all that other stuff that is so undervalued, and I think people don’t talk about enough, and those relationships are a huge part of that, but being known for getting all that stuff done and having the knowledge to make sure that you’re actually going to perform and do the work is huge. I can’t tell you the number of projects I’ve got because people have come to me and they said, you know what? We hired somebody and we know that they’re probably good at what they do, but they’re a horrible business person, and they just didn’t get it done. They didn’t show up. They don’t reply to emails. And it’s like, come on. That’s the easy part.

Cindy Chang:

There’s a book called, actually, I can’t remember exactly the name, but I think it’s like who? Not How? Yeah. Have you heard of this? Yes. So exactly that. It’s not really how you’re staffing the team, it’s not the plan of how you’re going to get the team to deliver the result on the team. Who is the team.

Karin Conroy:

Yes. I think that’s really critical, and I kind of interrupted what you were saying there, but just making sure that when you’re starting a new thing, it’s all those relationships and everything, but it’s also being known for getting things done and being realistic about it. So when I have a new project coming in and they’re like, can you do this by tomorrow? I will say, no, I won’t try to do it and fail. I will look at my schedule and say, no, that is absolutely not going to happen by tomorrow, and here’s why. And anybody that tells you that this can happen by tomorrow is not being honest about it. And I’m going, so that builds trust as well. So you’re starting to build this new thing. You’re being known for actually doing things and being a good business person on top of it. What’s another thing in terms of just sustaining that relationship? I feel like where a lot of people struggle is the in-between, so we finished a project and you may not contact me for whatever. In my case, it may be a couple years. How do you sustain that in-between time and kind of stay in touch without being obnoxious, but also maintain that relationship?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, I love this. It’s such a good question. And I think this brings me to something that I was thinking would be a great thing to talk through on this episode, which is how to have coffee chats with people. Oh,

Karin Conroy:

Yes. Let’s have a whole segment about this because there is a sub cat title here, which is also how not to. So yeah, let’s talk about this. What’s your approach,

Cindy Chang:

First of all, why coffee chats? And I’m not saying it doesn’t literally have to be like a coffee chat. Oftentimes it is, but the question that you brought up of how do you stay in touch with people? There’s many different ways I prefer and for many service based. I do find that in person, staying in touch can be preferable to an email flyer or a holiday postcard. Those are also different ways that you can protect your time. But I do think especially if you have and it’s a repeat client that you are wanting to stay connected with, having an in-person touchpoint is really good. And so this could be a coffee chat. This could be if you’re hosting of my clients who provide services at the end of the year, if you’re hosting a holiday party as a thank you, invite those old clients, even if clients who haven’t worked with you this year, but were supporters of yours in the past, investing with you in the past, invite those folks. Thank you. Thanks for being a customer. Hope you’re having a great year. Come drinks the firm.

Karin Conroy:

Yeah. Well, and those have even more likelihood to need something if you haven’t talked to them or worked with them in however much time. But if it’s been a while, that’s a really great little bucket to try to dip into.

Cindy Chang:

Absolutely. Yeah, go ahead.

Karin Conroy:

I was going to say, okay, so let’s say for the majority of firms, they’re going to have local clients and they’re going to be able to know, you should be able to know pretty quickly who your top clients are and who you do want to stay in touch with. Do you just reach out and just send a quick email and say, let’s go grab coffees at some point?

Cindy Chang:

My preferred approach is to send a quick email, but give them something that you think they would be interested in. So say your client is a K 12 educator or something. Send them a news article about something that’s going on in the city regarding K 12. Hey, saw this thought of you just wanted to see how you’re doing. Would you want to grab coffee next week? Send your schedule. I’ll coordinate done.

Karin Conroy:

That’s so great because on the recipient side, they’re not like, oh, what are you trying to sell me? Okay. It sort of legitimizes that you are just trying to check in, you’re thinking about them and you’re using some good supporting information that is specific to them. So that’s awesome because I’ve got plenty of these kinds of conversations and then I’ve got to them and it goes nowhere. And I’m like, what are we talking about? What are we doing? So do you suggest you normally come in with some thoughts about what to talk about? Or do you just go in cold?

Cindy Chang:

I think it really depends to be honest on the person, on the other side of the table, because some people really, if you have a great personal relationship with the person on the other side, sometimes it really is as simple as, Hey, let’s grab a coffee and you can just talk. Some people, others are much more transactional. You may have some relationships that are much more transactional. And so those relationships that can be helpful to go in with specific, even questions you can do your research as well on what’s been happening. Oh, I saw you guys raised a new round of funding. Oh, I saw you guys expanded to this different segment in the market. How’s that going? Oh, I saw you guys are hiring for a new team. How’s that going? You come prepared too, knowing a little bit about what’s up with the business, and then you asking them and punting it over to them. Tell me more. What’s going on with you? What do you need? Kind of thing.

Karin Conroy:

Yeah, that’s awesome. The other thing I wrote down, and you kind of mentioned a little while ago, is using your network in terms of them being aware of what you are good at, how you execute and everything. But also I wrote down influencers, but not that kind of influencer, using your network to help influence other people basically as referrals. So this was a key part for myself as well early on, recognizing that one solid referral source is worth many projects as opposed to just a referral for a client. And so finding a good handful of referral sources can be a total game changer. Do you have any thoughts or do you think it should be sort of the same set of rules that apply to keeping relationships intact with referral sources?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, I think so. And I also think it’s a great point that you bring up of really, especially again with service-based businesses, especially with those higher ticket services, it really is about quality, not quantity. If you only can think of two people right now off the top of your head that you would want to invest in long-term relationships with, that’s a lot of people. Those people could be, you could build a business on just two referrals, of course.

Karin Conroy:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, from the beginning for my agency, I had one main source of leads and then it branched out from there. But I absolutely built my business on one, if it’s a solid enough root source and they have a good flow of leads, maybe that’s all you need. Alright, so it’s time for the thought leaders library. Remember, our website has a curated collection of the top book picks from all of our guests. So Cindy, what is the one book you believe relates to everything we are talking about today and that lawyers should have on their shelf?

Cindy Chang:

So we were talking about this, I’m actually rereading Grit by Angela Duckworth.

Karin Conroy:

So good. I feel like this is one of those rare books that crosses the boundaries between work life, just kind of overall approach to how you are a person, right? Yeah. It’s so good. I saw her in a conference once, she was a speaker at a conference, and it was she amazing. She’s just very succinct and to the point, and it’s not fluffy, but I don’t want to describe, tell me what you like about this book, grit by Angela Duckworth.

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, well, similar to what you’re saying, I think it’s a wonderful read no matter where you are in life and business because it really is more about goals and how you orient yourself to go after your goals. So grit is the title and it’s about kind of understanding how do you cultivate a sense of drive in yourself to where you don’t give up on the goals you go after. So obviously highly applicable to entrepreneurs because as we all know, building a business is no joke. Yeah,

Karin Conroy:

Exactly.

Cindy Chang:

And you’ll fail

Karin Conroy:

Well, and the failure is part of the learning process. And so looking at failure as a learning process and not taking it so personally, that is a huge thing that we all as humans have to overcome. And there’s even times where it’s still a process. You still kind of look at things and it’s like, okay, that’s just data. But it’s still kind of hard to soak that in when we’re talking about your personal brand and you being sort of so linked together.

Cindy Chang:

Yeah, it’s interesting to think about this failure and rejection and things in the context of long-term relationships too, because there are going to be times where maybe you pivot your business or you change up your services and you want people, again to know you for not just what service you’re providing, but the type of thought leadership you bring to the table, the nature of your work that you’re going to be committed, that you’re going to show up and help them solve their problem, rather than being known for I practice X, Y, Z type of law, or I only take on X, Y, Z type of cases because that really locks you in then into only doing that. And if you ever need to pivot or restructure in the future, it’s

Karin Conroy:

A problem. Yeah. When I first started websites were HTML and the approach and the style and everything, it was an entirely different product. Like the way that we did websites and the things that we were saying and the style and everything was entirely different. So if I had stuck with this idea of HTML website, let’s just go very narrow, I’d be in trouble because WordPress came along and I remember there being agencies that were like, no, no, that’s just not a thing. We’re not going to change. We’re going to just stay. And they just got lost in the change. So being aware of, and obviously my work with websites and technology that’s very fast moving and it changes all the time. So if you’re not on top of that, you will get left in the dust. But it’s the same case with every industry, even the old school legal industry, things are changing, laws are changing. You have to stay on top of it, and the clients are changing. The things that they were looking for when I first started versus now is entirely different. They want a very sophisticated website that speaks to them, and you’ve got three seconds. So if you’re not staying on top of that and making appropriate changes, you’re not going to really survive or maybe maintain, but it’s not going to be a growth mode.

Cindy Chang:

Right? Totally.

Karin Conroy:

Yeah. So grit is an awesome book. We’ll put that in the library. And it also applies to even parenting and how to look at just going through life in general about how are you going to look at it when your kids are challenged and something doesn’t go the way you wanted it or the way they wanted it, are you going to sit and coddle them and this is the same with your business, or are you going to take a hard look at it and say, okay, this is a lesson. How can we do better next time?

Cindy Chang:

Yeah. It’s really about resilience, which I think is really beautiful.

Karin Conroy:

Yes, a hundred percent. I love that so much. That is life for sure. Nobody’s going to go through unscathed stuff, even

Cindy Chang:

Though it looks like that from the outside.

Karin Conroy:

It does. Yeah. Well, in certain people’s social media accounts, it absolutely looks just like all sunshine and rainbows, but we all know that is not how life works, but it’s totally makes sense. Also, in terms of the main topic we’ve been talking about for long-term relationships, we initially were going to just talk about how to leave a firm, but then as we were talking, it’s really much more about having a long-term relationship in place and having them value you. And so that’s when we pivoted this topic of this whole episode to being more about figuring out how to create those relationships. Do you have any kind of last minute thoughts in terms of long sustainable relationships that people should think of when they’re thinking of either going out and starting their own thing or just building a business in general?

Cindy Chang:

So what I have found works well for me is to really lean into relationships that feel good to me. So you’re just going to have some relationships where you feel like it’s very easy to communicate with this person and that person is on the same page as you. And I think especially at the beginning of your business, it’s okay to lean into those relationships. In fact, you want to, because at the very beginning of your business, you are most likely going to be a solo team of one, and you’re going to have a lot of constraints in your time. You’re going to be also doing your own accounting, and you’re going to be setting up your own systems. You’re going to be doing a lot of things that have nothing to do with the actual moneymaking part of the business that will take your time away from the moneymaking part of your business, which is really selling in relationships. So it’s okay to lean into those relationships that feel really easy and good. And those will sometimes be, those relationships sometimes have the most longevity too, because you’re aligned in terms of values, your approach to work and life. The trust has been built, it’s there. So yes. Yeah,

Karin Conroy:

The ones, and as a kind of flip, the ones that are difficult and don’t feel good, they almost never stick around. They’re basically saying, I am not so sure. They’re kind of questioning you, as opposed to the ones that do feel good. Their communication in my experience has been like, I trust you, number one, and I also know what I don’t know. So I want you to help me fill the gaps of what I don’t know. And you bring to the table this certain knowledge that I don’t have, and I trust you that you’ve done this before and I’ve never done this before. Maybe, or maybe they’ve done it one other time, and so I am going to listen to you. I’m going to trust you. I’m not going to try to do your work for you. And those are the things that make it difficult and painful, and they just don’t stick around because there’s something, and it may not even be you and your work, but there’s just something about the relationship where they don’t trust you.

And so it’s like, okay, well go away. Go find someone else, then go find someone you can trust because it just works out. And those are the relationships that initially that when I first started my agency that have stuck around for 10 plus years versus there was plenty that did not. So I just think there’s something that we know inherently in our gut right away about the ones that are going to be gold. It’s just such a great thought. It doesn’t have to be painful. Yes. There will be painful. Yes, exactly. Exactly. All. So Cindy, what’s one big takeaway that you’d like everyone to know and get from this episode?

Cindy Chang:

I think for me, the big takeaway is really going beyond what exactly you do for a living into being able to bring, how you help support someone into the picture of when you’re building relationships.

Karin Conroy:

Yes, that’s so true. And I think people get hung up on, I’m picturing a LinkedIn profile and all the bullet points like, I did this and then I did that and whatever. And it’s okay, but do people really want to work with you? Do they trust you and believe you, and do they think you do great work? And that’s a more complicated question, and that’s what I think people should be working towards what builds your brand and gives you that potential to go start your own thing long term. I think that’s really valuable. That’s awesome.

Cindy Chang:

Yeah.

Karin Conroy:

Cindy Jang is the founder of The Hustling Heart. She’s a brand consultant and gets to the heart of all this stuff about how to express your value and check her out her website. We’ll link to all of that stuff on the show page. And thank you so much for being here.

Cindy Chang:

Thank you.

Karin Conroy:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Counsel Cast podcast. Be sure to visit our website at Counsel Cast dot com for the resources mentioned on the episode and to give us your feedback. If you enjoyed this episode, I would appreciate if you could rate and review the podcast on Apple and subscribe to your favorite podcast platform. See you on the next one.

Continue Reading