What are the best marketing methods for introverted lawyers? with Tara Reid

Episode Notes

Transcript

[00:00:00] Tara: Hi, I am Tara and I am so excited to be here today. I am a business and marketing coach. I’ve been an online entrepreneur for 16 years, and my passion in life is helping other introverts learn how to market their business and build a business online in a more authentic way. Um, using more. Introvert friendly marketing methods, because as we know, everyone says, video is king.

[00:00:30] You need to show up on video all the time to put yourself out there. Um, and I am kind of changing that conversation or opening it up a little bit more, um, because a lot of introverts just don’t like to show up that way and I am the same way. and I love showing, um, Entrepreneurs and business owners out there that there is another way to get visible and grow your brand and your business.

[00:00:55] Karin: I think this is gonna be a great conversation because I think at the end of the day, what we’re talking about is doing, what’s comfortable for you and not trying to force yourself into some method that is uncomfortable. And then like you were saying earlier, it just becomes. Inauthentic and it feels forced.

[00:01:16] And, and I think that really comes across in, um, in everything that you do, especially if you’re even doing podcasts like this or doing any kind of speaking, people can tell if this, if this is something that kind of aligns with your body language and the way that you’re, you’re feeling about it. And if you’re trying to be.

[00:01:37] Tony Robbins out on the stage and everything about your body is saying, no, like, this is awful then. 

[00:01:44] Tara: And I did that before. Yeah, I did that. I wish I was doing all the things that I was told I had to do. And I was forcing myself to do it and trying to force myself to be more high energy and extroverted and.

[00:01:58] People could tell that it just wasn’t authentic. Right. Because I forced myself to do it and then it wasn’t even getting me results. So what was the point? 

[00:02:06] Karin: Yes. Okay. So there’s so many really big picture ideas there. Kind of being authentic, tapping into what you know, your strengths are, and also setting aside what your weaknesses are at the same time.

[00:02:19] And then. and then also like you, you have some great tips and, and kind of tactics of what the best approach for all of that is. So this is, this is gonna be a great conversation. Um, and you know, to begin with, thank you for being here. I appreciate, uh, all of your insight. So the big question that we’re going to talk about today is what are the best marketing methods for introverted lawyers?

[00:02:41] So let’s start first with. Some misconceptions. So tell me first, um, did you, did you kind of know, always know that you were an introvert kind of have that gut feeling or did you do like a Myers Briggs? Um, you know, or just some other kind of personality test where you, you just knew right away that oh yeah.

[00:03:02] That’s, that’s the category I fit in. 

[00:03:05] Tara: Yeah. I’m, I’m very, um, huge on the introvert scale. Um, so I knew. Pretty much my entire life that I was introverted, um, labeled as an introvert, shy, quiet. All of the words. Like I don’t think I even spoke in school until fourth grade. Oh, wow. So um, it’s, it’s definitely just a part of who I am.

[00:03:30] Sure. And I find that. Even, not just in the business, but in life. I was trying to always feel like I had to force myself to be somebody else. Yeah. And it wasn’t until I had that, what I call my self, self acceptance moment where I was like, I’m just gonna own who I am. Yes. As an introvert and. My business, my life, everything just got so much more fun and calmer and easier.

[00:03:54] Karin: right. So we did, uh, when I was in grad school at the end, right before we graduated, we had a closing residential, and we did the Myers Briggs and some other personality tests. And we got to find out, uh, you know, When you do an MBA, it’s very team focused. And so we got to also kind of find out what our team members were.

[00:04:13] And I said from the beginning, I wish we had this information in the beginning so that we had this understanding of our team members and could recognize this is just a part of their personality. They’re not trying to just be contrary to what I’m saying or whatever other. , you know, thing might happen in my head when we’re having these interactions.

[00:04:35] This is just how they think and approach the world. And, you know, this is just the way that they are, it’s not personal. So, um, I feel like that was a, a good understanding and I also feel like for introverts it, uh, the, it seems like a bigger challenge. Is, is that fair or does the world seem to be, yeah, especially for entrepreneurs.

[00:04:58] Does it seem to, most of the business books are aimed kind of at, you know, get out there, be networking, be, you know, kind of more aimed towards extroverts. 

[00:05:09] Tara: Yeah, definitely. That’s why I really, once I had this self acceptance moment, I was like, I need to help other people like me who are forcing themselves to do things that aren’t fun and show them that there’s other ways to get visible and grow as.

[00:05:24] A person and as an entrepreneur, and I think in terms of introverts were kind of like, for me, I always felt like there was something wrong with me because I was an introvert. So that self acceptance moment, like that’s why it affected my entire life. Not just in business is because I’ve always looked at it as a negative trait and it’s not, I think.

[00:05:47] You said with teams, like it’s important to have different personalities. Yeah, absolutely. And like, if you had a team full of all extroverts, they might just be butting heads 

[00:05:57] Karin: um, absolutely. Well, and you just need a balance of ideas and information, because if everybody’s saying the same thing, you’re just bulldozing each other.

[00:06:05] So what are some other misconceptions? Because I feel. Like I said it was, it’s very kind of aimed at extroverts, especially entrepreneurship. but what are some other misconceptions and kind of negative? Uh, stigma is there, that’s out there for, for introverts, especially entrepreneurs. 

[00:06:23] Tara: Um, I think one of the biggest ones about introverts in particular is that we’re not good sales people.

[00:06:30] Yes. And we can’t sell very well. And I think with an introvert, you have to focus, selling and think of it in terms of your strengths. Like, yeah. Maybe we’re not like salesy people, but we can tell stories. We can connect one on one with people. So we really need to focus. How we’re building relationships in a way that feels better for us and actually gets results.

[00:06:57] So yeah, I’m not gonna go and do a Instagram live, right. Maybe instead, I’m going to build some one-on-one connections in the Instagram DMS, for example. 

[00:07:07] Karin: Yeah. And to be, while you were speaking, I was imagining, um, I’ve talked to some, some people who do either business development or sales in, uh, law firms, kind of all in the same general.

[00:07:20] Bucket. And a lot of their advice is to me kind of taming down those extroverts. So be a better listener, you know, find, let the client lead the conversation step back and kind of do more of the stories like you’re describing and the listening and, and don’t be so. Obnoxious, I guess, for lack of a better word.

[00:07:45] So I really feel like it’s, it’s very underrated the skills that an introvert could bring to a sales, like a sales conversation. 

[00:07:54] Tara: Mm-hmm I feel like with that’s so true. And I feel like with introverts, we can naturally build that relationship where it’s focused on connection and trust, and we’re not just.

[00:08:09] Sending DMS, like Hey, I have this program and I think you’d be awesome for it. You wanna sign up? Like we, I, I think so our, we actually get, I think, a higher conversion rate. Yeah. If we really allow ourselves to build those connections too, over the longer term. Yeah. 

[00:08:25] Karin: Honestly, I feel like a lot of this sales, uh, language that I’ve seen lately is more.

[00:08:33] Uh, you know, if you look at it in the lens of an introvert, it is more like, kind of be more introverted, like take that step back and don’t be, so it, it, the salesy kind of used car sales approach, uh, turns everybody off, including a lot of lawyers. And so a lot of lawyers don’t wanna say that their sales people or they, or even when they talk to me about.

[00:08:56] They’re marketing. They’re talking about, we don’t wanna be come across as too salesy or, you know, they, sometimes they don’t even really want the law firm to look like a business, which that I feel like is going too far. They’ll sometimes take buttons off of their website and things like that. It’s like, okay.

[00:09:13] You know, that, that kind of needs to be there. mm-hmm but I, I think maybe that’s coming from some of these clients have a tendency towards more Ivers. 

[00:09:25] Tara: Yeah. And that’s, that’s a beautiful thing, is that as introverts, that’s our strength. Like we need to use our, our strengths. I find a few introverts I’ve spoken to they’re like, I’m, I’m not, um, getting any traction on Instagram.

[00:09:40] I’m spending all this time on it and messaging people and I’m like, well, are you engaging or are you just trying to be a pushy salesperson? That’s totally out of your comfort zone and most of the time, that’s what they’ve been doing. yes. Trying to force the sales conversation instead of letting it naturally flow and really.

[00:10:02] Being who they are as an introvert and listening 

[00:10:05] Karin: more. Yeah. Yeah. And using your strengths. So that goes right into the next thing I was gonna ask more about. So you talk a lot about kind of these evergreen sales funnels and content marketing. So what is, um, a more authentic, more comfortable, more successful kind of, uh, marketing and campaigns that introverts can.

[00:10:27] Tara: so I have a lot of ideas and thoughts around this, and I feel like, um, for introverts in particular, I find that a lot of us, when we think of sales and marketing our business, it always feels like we have to go out and bring people to us. And I think with. Evergreen and organic marketing methods. It’s more about attracting the right people to you, um, with the content that you’re putting out with the content that you’re creating the goal is, is really to attract who your ideal audience is, who you wanna work with and have them come to you, which as an introvert is best case scenario, because you don’t have to feel like you’re constantly on and constantly hustling.

[00:11:09] And you know, if you have a week where. You don’t wanna be on Instagram, for example, you don’t have to be, you have these other, um, channels that are drawing people 

[00:11:18] Karin: in. Okay. So how does it work? They, uh, so what’s the best kind of approach for, for this kind of a campaign. 

[00:11:27] Tara: So when I talk about, um, the four marketing methods that are best for introverts, Always say that they’re blogging.

[00:11:36] Um, I think blogging is a lost art form a little bit. Yes. And not many people are using it. Um, it’s great for getting organic traffic. So people who are actually searching for what you offer are how you can help them. They’re actively searching on search engines for you, but they can’t find you. Um, so blogging helps with that.

[00:11:55] Blogging is also really great. Um, for repurposing content onto other marketing channels. So you’re not feeling like you have to constantly turn out new stuff and share new insights and value all the time. Um, and then also email marketing, which I think is huge for introverts because so much of it can be automated.

[00:12:15] Yes. Um, that’s really the. Beauty of email marketing. You don’t have to, um, write emails even every week. If you have emails set up in an automated sequence, um, and grow your email list that way. I think that is beautiful for introverts. Yeah. Yeah. And then also Pinterest, which, oh, that’s a good is also a search engine.

[00:12:35] Karin: Yes. Let’s talk about that for a minute because I really think people don’t get it when it comes to Pinterest and it’s such a little. Uh, hidden gem. I feel like some of us in marketing get it and we are, we’re seeing it, but it’s a little, uh, especially for lawyers, it feels like, oh my gosh, that seems like something where, um, like moms are just saving recipes and things like that, which I do also , you know, for a business mm-hmm side of things.

[00:13:01] Uh, I, I think there’s a lot of opportunity there that people are not really aware of. 

[00:13:07] Tara: Yeah, definitely. Pinterest is such a huge platform. And so many businesses are not using it. yes. Um, still, and it it’s, like you said, it’s such an untapped resource for traffic to your website. So if your website is converting and speaks to your ideal audience, getting people from Pinterest to your website is like a beautiful.

[00:13:29] Organic traffic source. Yeah. 

[00:13:31] Karin: Um, and it works really well. Mm-hmm and I’m gonna repeat what you said a minute ago. That Pinterest is a search engine. I think a lot of people think of it as another social media outlet, but it’s not, it’s a search engine. So it’s, it’s very different from Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, where people are just browsing and they’re just scrolling, whereas on Pinterest, they’re actually searching.

[00:13:53] And so if your, your content can come. In the same way and with the same kind of, you know, very rough kind of strategy as you would do for Google or the other search engine. 

[00:14:06] Tara: Yeah. And that’s, that’s what’s I think some people avoid Pinterest because they’re like, oh, I don’t wanna add another channel. Yeah.

[00:14:13] Like I’m on Instagram all the time, or I’m on Facebook all the time. And I just don’t have time for another channel, but that’s the beauty of Pinterest. You’re not creating new content. Yes. You’re sharing content that you’ve already created. And. Like Pinterest, I say with Pinterest and with organic traffic from search engines, it’s a long term strategy.

[00:14:34] Yes, but it has long term results. Exactly. You do have to have patience with it, but eventually it will pay off. And I. I like my most popular pin is one that I shared two years ago. It’s still driving the most traffic to my website from Pinterest. That’s awesome. 

[00:14:51] Karin: And I saw a, a quote the other day that talked about, um, you know, your Instagram post has a life.

[00:14:58] Or, you know, whatever social media platform you’re using has a lifespan of maybe a half a day. Like if you’re lucky mm-hmm . Um, but anything that you’re putting on your blog and then putting out to, uh, well, first of all, your blog has an, you know, somewhat infinite lifespan. Like obviously things get stale after a certain amount of time, but it, it easily has a lifespan of multiple years.

[00:15:23] So instead of thinking of it, in terms of starting at the social media, Uh, place and creating the content from there. If you start instead at your blog and your website. And then promote your content out from there. The lifespan lasts longer. It brings people to your website, which you know, is the goal. Um, alright.

[00:15:42] So what other marketing methods do you think? Like, how do you, how do you overcome the hurdle? Um, especially for lawyers who are told, they’d need to do a lot of networking and in person networking and, you know, get out there and, and meet people and, and, uh, you know, do all of that really uncomfortable stuff for introverts.

[00:16:05] Tara: Yeah. I think when it comes to having to network, I think it’s important to have your own boundaries and set those limits. It’s like me with, with meetings and things. Like I only have set days that I will do meetings. Um, because I know that if I have meetings every day, Monday to Friday, I’m going to. So burnt out by the end of the week and I’m not gonna get a lot of other stuff done.

[00:16:30] So I I’ve, I think it’s important to really look at your own boundaries. What you like, like I’ve, um, I’ve started avoiding, I blocked out my calendar for Mondays, cuz I was like every meeting I have on Monday. I just feel like it’s starting my week off on the wrong foot. Yeah. So I blocked out Monday, so I think.

[00:16:49] Like important to understand how you work best and set those boundaries for yourself. 

[00:16:53] Karin: Yeah, I think that’s another great point. Um, is, uh, when I first did one of the, did the Myers Briggs, uh, test, it was describing introversion and extroversion as basically where your energy source is. And so that felt, uh, nicer to me than talking about kind of shy versus outgoing.

[00:17:15] And, you know, because I. And correct me if I’m wrong, but I think introverts in the right, uh, kind of arrangement in maybe smaller groups, they can be very energetic and have the right kind of conversations. It’s just that your energy is different in different places and also where your energy gets drained.

[00:17:34] So like you were describing, uh, if you need, we all need to, uh, make. Make a plan and a budget for our energy, cuz it’s all a limited amount of energy that we have each week. And so knowing that meeting after meeting is gonna just completely drain you and you’re not gonna have anything left over for. The rest of your life is not the way to work.

[00:17:56] Mm-hmm so, so, so how do you kind of manage like that, that energy and kind of recognizing, um, and, and I guess the other question I had about that too, is where, because I am, uh, pretty. Big card carrying extrovert. Um, so it’s kind of fascinating to me, but where, where do introverts get like gather the energy?

[00:18:18] Is it in that kind of quiet time or, or where does the energy build? Uh, as opposed to kind of where extroverts get it from, from being in those big public settings? . 

[00:18:29] Tara: Yeah, I think for me and, and for most it’s, it’s kind of like, we need our alone time to recharge. Okay. Um, sometimes for me, like, I really love doing design work.

[00:18:37] So sometimes if I. Have had a lot of meetings and I’m feeling really low energy. I will just go into Canva and start designing random things. Nice. Just to take a break. Yeah. Maybe I’ll read a book. Um, yeah, maybe I’ll go for a walk with my dogs, like something just to unplug and turn off. Um, cuz it’s funny.

[00:18:58] I, I set all these things with meetings like, and I also have on my calendar. I, nobody can book more than two meetings. A day. So I’m not gonna have like a full four hours of meetings in a day. Yeah. Um, but that’s something I learned over time that I implemented, but it’s funny because I did that. And then I had a interview, um, with somebody who’s definitely an extrovert and she was running a summit and she’s like, yeah.

[00:19:21] Um, you’re my second out of 30 summit interviews today. And I’m like, oh gosh, gosh, that would wreck me for a month if I had to interact with that many people in a day, one on one. Yeah. So. 

[00:19:33] Karin: I mean, I am an extrovert too, but, but I actually, I feel like since grad school I’ve shifted more, I was full on a hundred percent extrovert.

[00:19:42] Um, you know, when I graduated, but I feel like as I’ve got older, I’ve shifted more to the middle because a lot of the things that you’re talking about, I, I can’t do more than two, maybe a. Third meeting in a given day. I totally block off my Mondays too. Cause I’m like, no, I just can’t, I can’t deal with that on a Monday.

[00:20:01] I need to start off and kind of, um, so I do feel like there’s some of those, those, um, I don’t know what the word I’m looking for, that some of those qualities that shift over time. Um, did, does that happen for you too? Where at different times of your life, you feel, uh, like different levels of, of introversion or extroversion or are you pretty much over on the one side?

[00:20:24] Pretty solid. . 

[00:20:26] Tara: Um, I’m pretty solid on the one side, but I do have, um, little pockets of what I call extroverted energy, where I’m like constantly engaging on Instagram. I’m feeling great about it. I’m responding to all messages and I’m building relationships and then I’ll just crash and then won’t go on Instagram for three months.

[00:20:48] Yeah. So 

[00:20:49] Karin: yeah. No, that makes sense. Okay. So are there any other marketing methods that you wanna highlight in terms of. Um, how people can kind of work around, um, some of the, the more traditional get out there and be, be in people’s face kind of ideas. 

[00:21:09] Tara: Yeah. So I, I think one thing I’ll say is, um, so the fourth method is social media, but the way I talk about social media is more of a focus on the content and bringing people to you, like attracting those people in with the content you’re creating and putting more of a focus on that instead of.

[00:21:26] Engaging. Yeah. Um, like I think as an introvert, if somebody starts the conversation, it’s a lot easier for us to then connect. Um, so that’s why I, I focus a lot more on the content with social media. Um, I think there’s a ton of other opportunities for introverts, like guest speaking on podcast. Um, like starting my own podcast is something that I never thought I would do.

[00:21:49] but, um, it’s actually been really fun. So if, if you, I feel like you can start. Do a guest interview. If it feels good, do another one. And then eventually you will. A bit more confidence with it. Sure. Um, so if it’s, I, I feel like a lot of introverts, we need to test things. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. Like I, I know some introverts do love being on video and so if, if you try it and it’s great, then keep doing it.

[00:22:16] Yeah. Um, but there are other ways that you don’t have to show up all the time. yeah, 

[00:22:21] Karin: that makes sense. And I like that. Um, I always, like when I hear advice, that’s contr. The mainstream advice. So this idea that you have to be out there engaging, be on social media, be really, you know, that really is aimed to extroverts.

[00:22:36] And if that doesn’t feel good and even for myself, um, a lot of times I just feel like a lot of the people who are. Are out there and trying to engage are pretty low level, uh, sometimes bottom of the barrel. And when you’re describing how they come to you and start that conversation. they’ve now qualified themselves and they’re probably a better lead than you just going out and trying to have a conversation with the entire world instead of waiting for some of them to trickle towards you.

[00:23:08] Uh, it’s probably, you’re probably filtering, filtering through a lot of, uh, unnecessary traffic. That’s probably not great anyway. So I think that’s and conserving 

[00:23:17] Tara: your energy. Yes. Yes. You’re conserving your energy cuz you’re not. Trying to start like a hundred conversations a day, 

[00:23:23] Karin: right? Yes. Yeah. So I think that the, um, kind of sub subheading of that is to take a lot of that social media advice and recognize that some of it’s, if you are an introvert, Some of, it’s just not gonna be right for you or your approach and that’s okay.

[00:23:40] You don’t need to necessarily be, uh, engaging, like you said, with a hundred different people every single day. Like that’s just, that even sounds like a lot to me. Like that’s, 

[00:23:48] Tara: I think one thing to think about too, in terms of social media, cuz so many, um, like it’s all about Instagram. Yeah. But. I think it’s also important to figure out if your ideal audience is actually on Instagram.

[00:24:00] Yes. Like, do you even need to be there? Yes. If you don’t enjoy it and your ideal audience isn’t there, then ditch it. You don’t need to be on Instagram. You can be on LinkedIn instead if that’s where more of your audience is. 

[00:24:13] Karin: Yeah. And honestly, um, that it goes for whe whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert.

[00:24:19] and, uh, that was one of my marketing professors. One of his main, first messages is fi first find out where your potential clients or customers or whatever you, you call ’em in your industry, find out where they are and then be there. So you don’t just go into every possible room that you can and every possible meeting.

[00:24:38] And you know, every conference first, you need to find out where they are and then be there. So like you said, a lot of times. That’s not gonna be Instagram. Um, sometimes it might, depending on your practice area, but a lot of times for the lawyers that I work with, like you said, LinkedIn is, is the best option for, for where they’re getting those conversations and the interaction.

[00:24:59] It feels very professional. And so you can take a little bit, bit of a step back cuz you don’t, you don’t, uh, see too many people having much success being really. Overt and, um, in your face kind of salesy on LinkedIn. And if they are people usually call ’em out and are like stop . Yeah. What are you doing?

[00:25:18] yeah, 

[00:25:18] Tara: I think another thing to think about is if you’re trying to figure out like where you need to be and where to put your energy, it’s a good thing to also look at your data, because you might think that you’re getting good results, but it might not actually be resulting in anything. So for me, I looked at that last year and I realized I was putting probably 80 to 90% of my social media efforts into Instagram, but I was getting 10 times the results from Facebook.

[00:25:48] Oh, nice. So that made me question everything and realized that, okay. I could spend less time on Instagram and focus more on Facebook cuz that’s where people are coming 

[00:25:56] Karin: from. Yeah. And then that feels good too, because it’s like, okay. I was putting all this time in there. Now I can just reclaim that time and do something more successful with it.

[00:26:06] Mm-hmm definitely please pay attention because you will be encouraged on each one of these platforms to quickly, you know, be sucked into their system of spending lots of money and ads and trying to increase all these different metrics. Most of which don’t matter to you. They only matter. To Instagram, as long as you’re spending more money.

[00:26:28] So, yeah, like you said, that’s great advice. May please pay attention to where, what the thing is that matters for you. You know, if, if it’s getting your phone to ring or having those, um, emails or having more traffic to your website, Or whatever that actual metric is, you need to measure that and then stay steady with it.

[00:26:48] so mm-hmm um, awesome. Okay. So it’s time for the book recommendation. I know that you have a good one and I’m an avid reader. So, um, I’m always looking for good recommendations that are books that are worth my time. So what’s, what’s the book that you’re gonna recommend for the audience. 

[00:27:05] Tara: Yeah. So the book I am recommending is the quiet voice, fearless leader by Terrence Lee.

[00:27:10] Ooh. Um, and it’s all about how introverts can make great leaders and how you can set your own, um, leadership style as an introvert. 

[00:27:20] Karin: I love it. That sounds great. Um, so we will link to that on the show notes and it obviously relates to the topic today and. I, I, I like that it’s positioned in terms of having introverts, still be leaders and that it, you know, like let’s turn it on a positive spin it feels like there’s so many negative kind of, uh, you know, misconceptions about being introverted out there.

[00:27:46] So let’s try to turn it in a different direction. mm-hmm um, so what’s one, what’s one big takeaway that you’d like people to get from this. 

[00:27:56] Tara: Um, I think the biggest takeaway is just. Accept who you are as a person and know that whatever your strengths are in terms of marketing and growing your business or your practice, there are ways to do that.

[00:28:13] That are going to feel good to you and will get you actual 

[00:28:16] Karin: results. Oh yeah. I think that’s so valuable because, uh, there’s many, many marketing companies out there spending, you know, tens of millions of dollars to try to tell you that their way is the only way. And so, um, and regardless of your personality type, That’s probably not gonna work for most people.

[00:28:37] Um, and especially if you are, uh, introverted and they’re telling you to do something completely against your, the grain of your kind of natural personality, it’s just not gonna work. It’s gonna feel awful. And then eventually you may be excited about the idea for. 10 minutes, but then it’s just, you’re not gonna wanna be consistent with that.

[00:28:57] So I think that’s why every 

[00:28:58] Tara: time I see marketing framework, I just want to it, it, when somebody gives a framework, it’s it worked for them. Yes. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to work for you. Exactly, 

[00:29:12] Karin: exactly. It’s too rigid. Uh, and so, yeah, usually when I read marketing books, it’s like, if I can get they’ll have, you know, 12 or 15 chapters or whatever.

[00:29:21] And usually I’m like, okay, If there’s one page on one chapter, that’s good. I, I feel like it’s a, somewhat of a success, but they’re always way too rigid. And it’s like, this is not gonna work for. 90% of the people reading this book. Um, so anyway, I digress. So Tara Reed is a business and marketing coach and, and focuses on. Marketing strategies for introverts. Thank you so much for being here today. That was an awesome conversation. I appreciate your time.

[00:29:50] Tara: Thank you so much for having me.

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