You were meant to take up space. Especially in the legal industry, which is typically male dominated, it’s more important now than ever before to stand up for yourself, your beliefs, and let your true self shine — whether that’s with clients, in the courtroom, or at home.
My guest this week is Nequosha Anderson, who is a business and intellectual property attorney. For the last eight years, she has assisted primarily women creatives who want to legally protect their income producing ideas. She safeguards businesses and brand assets to ensure the intellectual property is secure and not stolen allowing the business owner to creatively operate in their genius and not be robbed of what’s rightfully theirs.
We talk about:
- How to find your own voice
- The societal change women are experiencing thanks to those who stand up for change and equality
- Why you need to show up and take up the space
- How to learn to know yourself to trust yourself and your voice
- Why representation of women and people of color matter in the legal industry
Mentioned in This Episode
Resources mentioned in this episode:
[00:00:34] Nequosha: Hi, my name is Nequosha and I’m a business and intellectual property attorney. And for the last eight years, I assist primarily women creatives who want to legally protect their income producing ideas because I help them safeguard their businesses and their brand assets to make sure they’re secure and not stolen because nobody wants to be robbed.
[00:00:52] Karin: I love it. Yeah, exactly. we became familiar on this amazing women’s group called hello seven that we were both a part of and it’s about women entrepreneurship and how to build businesses, but also just how to have the right mindset as a woman business owner. So today’s big question.
[00:01:12] Is why women lawyers need to take up space.
[00:01:14] So this is a big one and we could sit and talk about this forever. And before I get into that, I just wanted to thank you actually for being here today, Nicole, I didn’t even start with that. So thank you so much for being here and chatting with me.
[00:01:27] Nequosha: in my MPR, best voice. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:31] Karin: So that is exactly like the quiet NPR voice. I love it.
[00:01:35] Nequosha: Thank you for having me. I’m I’m delighted to be here.
[00:01:38] Karin: It’s perfect because in the morning when you’re listening to NPR, you can’t have people be like a little too high energy. Cause it’s a little too much in the first thing in the morning.
[00:01:46] Nequosha: Yes. And then do you know the nerd in me? Of course, they had to Google what type of mix they
[00:01:51] Karin: I love it.
[00:01:52] Nequosha: they use a sure. Something it’s like a sure. S H U R E for
[00:01:57] those who would like to Google it,
[00:01:58] Karin: that is what I have.
[00:02:00] Nequosha: look at you. You Spanish. And so they use a special type of mic and they have it positioned in a certain type of way.
[00:02:08] And that is how they speak, because I wanted to know how do you get the NPR sound?
[00:02:13] If you go Google, how to get NPR sound they’ll come up.
[00:02:16] Karin: And you found the answer because you are not the first person to Google that because everybody’s like, okay, everybody on there on the planet is doing a podcast these days, and everybody wants to sound like NPR. Not like they’re
[00:02:27] walking around inside of a tin can. And so you sound very nice. I love your
[00:02:32] Nequosha: Thank you.
[00:02:33] I do not have a sheer microphone, but.
[00:02:34] thank you.
[00:02:36] Karin: Love it. so we’re going to talk about why women, especially women lawyers, because that’s mostly who we’re talking to you. It should take up space and we’re going to start first.
[00:02:46] Talking about, you’re just kind of owning your voice and feeling like you need to, you have that voice to begin with. You don’t need to go out and search for what other people are doing, because I will say one of the most common searches that people come to me for is that they’re looking for what everybody else is doing and its best law firm website.
[00:03:05] Let me find what all the other lawyers are doing. And then First, I, I don’t really know how to do this, which is fine because you’re a lawyer. So I’m just going to copy what somebody else is doing. let’s talk about that for a minute? Why do we have our own voice?
[00:03:19] Nequosha: Well, number one, God gave you a voice, your higher power, whatever you believe in, if you don’t follow that logic, but you have your own voice and you need to own it. You have it. It’s yours speak up the only way you’re going to succeed in this male dominated cis-gender male dominated space is if you open your mouth and say something, You have to be able to own what you are.
[00:03:41] And, and please do not mistake that there have been times where I have cried and regretted it and not because I will. Well, you know, sad. It was cause I was angry.
[00:03:52] I was angry because I couldn’t find that inner voice that was screaming at me. Like you need to tell this man, no, tell this man, you, he will not talk to you.
[00:04:00] Tell this woman, she will not talk to you because there are some women in this space who are, They have trauma
[00:04:07] and they are transferring that to.
[00:04:09] So you have to let them know, Hey, this is not okay. How you’re talking to me is not okay. I will not accept this when you want to have a good conversation with me, we can do that.
[00:04:21] But in this moment I’m walking away and I think that fear. Of it compels you to a point where you’re like, I don’t know what’s going to happen after I stand up for myself,
[00:04:33] but let me take the veil off for you. Ladies.
[00:04:36] Karin: But this is why the voice has to be there to begin with because when we are not familiar with hearing those voices and hearing those versions of different reality, where we’re feeling represented.
[00:04:50] Just the world in general, then we feel like we have to sound like a white man. And so this is where for me, I felt like everything that happened this summer with Simone Biles, where she came forward, she stood up for herself and she represented, you know, all of these things that she was going through at the Olympics and took herself back.
[00:05:10] That was representative of,
[00:05:12] future. Girls who are going to go through that kind of thing that are now going to feel like this is something that can be done and said, because she said that.
[00:05:20] Nequosha: I agree. I feel like this generation that’s coming behind us and not just in sports, but just period, this generation that’s following us.
[00:05:28] They are owning their voice in ways that women could never do. So,
[00:05:31] I applaud them and there are Udacity to open their mouth and say something. This is not okay, is going to change the dynamic of women going forward point blank period.
[00:05:43] it’s an amazing time to be alive. The women movement and the black movement together, the way they’re paralleling, because people don’t realize it even in 19 50, 19 50.
[00:05:57] Okay. Which was only like 60 plus years ago. There were so many women and people of color who could not do the things that we just take for granted right now
[00:06:05] that is not that long period of time folks. So I get it that you may not be where you want to be, but you can be where you want to be. You have to choose
[00:06:15] to do something different
[00:06:16] and by,
[00:06:17] Karin: this different stage. I’m sorry to jump over you, but you have to set a different stage and say that this world that has been set up doesn’t work for all of us.
[00:06:25] so these are the things I need.
[00:06:27] Nequosha: yes, you have to declare what you need. And I heard on a podcast the other day in a Glenna, Glenna, duel um, had a guest by the name of Emily something, but I can’t remember her last name, but she said they first things first, you have to grieve the trauma. So that means you going to be angry and you have to recognize the anger, but then now you have to move forward because now you’re in a space of open you’re in a space of healing.
[00:06:48] You have to, it was talking about the sexual needs of women.
[00:06:51] The, she was her first guest, but it all goes, it all coincides together. It’s like, it’s not a, it’s not an event.
[00:06:59] So I love that. I’ve definitely own your voice ladies.
[00:07:03] It’s the only thing that’s going to catapult your careers. The only thing that’s going to catapult you at home, if you’re at home and you need help, you got to speak up
[00:07:10] and then also you gotta be not afraid to use the resources to get the help you need,
[00:07:13] because I think that that Right.
[00:07:15] there is a trauma.
[00:07:17] It paralyzes a lot of women,
[00:07:19] Karin: right?
[00:07:20] Well, and so going into the next step, then when I started setting up this podcast, one of the most common searches that I also did myself is what am I even going to talk about?
[00:07:30] And so how do you, first of all, we have to know that we have a voice somewhere, but then it’s like,
[00:07:36] Who am I? And what am I even going to talk about?
[00:07:38] How do you, you know, this next step we talked about was like, no thyself, how do we figure that out? Like what do we even have to say? And,
[00:07:46] how do we figure that part out?
[00:07:48] Nequosha: For me, it’s one of those things. Where, what am I going to talk about that I will talk about to the man on the bench with me,
[00:07:54] to the person on the bus with me. I talk about to myself in the mirror and yes, I do answer myself if you, so yes, if you just need to know in the shower, I’d be like, oh, and of course your girl, what we talking about, girl?
[00:08:05] I don’t know, girl. That sound good.
[00:08:10] Karin: Exactly
[00:08:11] Nequosha: the only person who does that.
[00:08:12] Okay. If we, if we need a faint with. Fan group together virtually I will bring all the snacks. I promise Costco. You need to sponsor me. Cause they have the best snacks.
[00:08:23] Karin: They do
[00:08:24] Nequosha: Tangent, over
[00:08:25] Karin: full on cart, full of snacks. I feel like that’s all, you really, that’s the main thing. You get a Costco toilet paper and snacks,
[00:08:32] Nequosha: That’s it. That’s all you need in life. Okay. And that big, old thing of toilet paper.
[00:08:35] So knowing what to talk about first comes with knowing what you like.
[00:08:40] And I think that is hard for a lot of people. Especially for women because we are so, been trained to adapt and be helpful and be of service. right,
[00:08:53] So we don’t even know what we like. Do you even know what your real favorite color is? Not what the world told you your color is? What’s your color.
[00:08:59] You got to know who and what you like. You know, I always jump back to this movie because
[00:09:04] I love this combination and runaway bride with Julia Roberts.
[00:09:09] Karin: that other guy. Yeah, I know. Yes. I know
[00:09:11] Nequosha: can’t think of his
[00:09:12] name, but,
[00:09:12] Karin: him, but I can’t think of his name either.
[00:09:14] Nequosha: but anyway, I love them and pretty woman definitely loved them and run away. Right. When she didn’t know what type of eggs she did.
[00:09:20] Karin: Yes.
[00:09:21] Nequosha: And she had to go to the diner and she ordered all those different types of eggs because whenever she dated, she took on the person, their favorite type of egg.
[00:09:30] Right. She took that on and I I use that scene as a point of reference to hold, what do you like? Not what someone tells you. They like, but what do you mean.
[00:09:41] Karin: Exactly. I love that because I think of one of my friend’s little girls when she was two, her favorite color was black and she totally nailed it. She would wear these cute little black dresses. She’d look like Audrey Hepburn. She was amazing. And it wasn’t like a morose black. It was an elegant black and, and what two-year-old girls are told that they should like black zero.
[00:10:05] They are told they should like pink and purple and that’s it. She is amazing. And I cannot wait to see what this little girl does when she, as she gets older because she owns it. And she is riding against the kind of flow of
[00:10:18] Nequosha: social norms.
[00:10:19] Karin: Exactly. So there is something inside all of us, where we had preferences and likes and things like that.
[00:10:26] Just like her, when we were younger, that we liked that we were then told that we should like other things.
[00:10:32] And so it’s like try to get back to that other stuff.
[00:10:35] Nequosha: Agreed. And I take that with me in the courtroom.
[00:10:38] before I went back to private practice, I used to wear red lipstick. I will red lipsticks to court. I wore African skirts to court. I had my black blazer on and a big old African skirt and red lipstick
[00:10:50] showed it,
[00:10:51] showed it. I showed up as me,
[00:10:53] either love me or leave me alone. And I did my job. And at the end I believed I was darn good at my job. I had a reputation. I was nicknamed the beast. I hated it. that. And I’ve gotten yelled at by judges. I have gotten yelled at, by clients. I’ve gotten yelled at by opposing counsel and you don’t what?
[00:11:10] I don’t care.
[00:11:10] I’m I, I got my job. Listen, love me or leave me alone. I still got my check every 30 days, government employee shout out to the government employees who only get paid once. you know, there is that, but I knew who I was. I knew the job I needed to do. And I learned, I came, I saw I conquered,
[00:11:27] but I own who I was in the process.
[00:11:29] Karin: Yes. I love that. So figure out the other thing that I was thinking about while you were talking is in hello, seven Rachel Rogers, who’s the kind of, you know, the founder of this group, she talks about trying to figure this out by doing this actual physical check with yourself, where you start thinking about different ideas or projects or whatever it is, topics, maybe things that you might want to talk about.
[00:11:54] And then close your eyes. Actually even those, this sounds totally woo woo. And kind of corny think about and feel how that feels in your body, because you will have a physical reaction to those. And, and I will have these physical reactions when I had taken initial sales calls with people. And I talked to people all over the country and I’ll
[00:12:17] sit and listen to them talk, and I’ll, I’ll have that reaction.
[00:12:21] Is this someone I want to work with? Is this someone who. Number one, I feel like they understand and value me or are they hiring me as like they think I’m their employee or, you know, what is happening to me while I’m talking to this person? Am I getting excited? Do they sound awesome? And like, I’m picturing what their project might look like.
[00:12:40] Or am I.
[00:12:41] Oh, gosh, if I saw this person’s email in my inbox, it would make my stomach turn. So think about that actual physical reaction that you have, your body is going to give you that response to whatever it is, your ideas, your thoughts, like things you might want to talk about. I love that.
[00:12:59] Nequosha: I agree with you wholeheartedly because there are some clients, there were some cases, there were some people when I just saw their name come across whatever device or whatever it is. I clenched
[00:13:09] my teeth. You notice your jaw in Mikey, all of that. Like you just, if that’s how you’re doing, get away, run Simba run far, far away and never return.
[00:13:19] like, listen. Those antidotes, they are real.
[00:13:23] And that is happening to you for a reason. You are having that response for a reason. Run girl.
[00:13:28] Okay. Listen to Forrest. He told you what to do
[00:13:31] for us. I want to be a bird so I can fly far, far away.
[00:13:34] Karin: And I know both of us have learned these lessons the hard way too. Like I have more often than I can even count taken on those clients. Cause I just feel bad or like I just, you know, yeah. And it’s such a hard lesson to learn because you’re sitting there and you’re looking at the money, you’re looking at all these things, but walking away when I’ve done that from a bad client experience has been so awesome.
[00:13:57] Nequosha: It’s the most freeing thing you will ever do, and that it will energize you and empower you in ways that only we can only talk about it, like until you experienced it for yourself.
[00:14:08] And so if you’re driving along or you’re washing the dishes, however you listening to the show right now, you know exactly what we’re talking about.
[00:14:14] When we say that moment of you stood up for yourself and dang, it felt good.
[00:14:20] Karin: It’s so good. It’s so validating because this is why we start our own businesses
[00:14:25] to make these choices, to have that freedom to not be imprisoned by that horrible
[00:14:31] Nequosha: girl, you preach him, you preach. And right now I’m going to get you a little, a little, the
[00:14:36] tray. We going to have a collection. Listen, if she I’m going to get her to put her cash app in the show notes of patriarchy, whatever it is, y’all need to do to support her in this show because she preaching right now.
[00:14:47] I’m telling y’all what she sees. She’s been big vats.
[00:14:50] Karin: I love it. Okay. So we’ve gone through this process. We’ve found our voice, and then we figured out how to know thyself. That’s our
[00:14:58] kind of
[00:14:59] what we’re going to call our second step. So then what?
[00:15:02] Nequosha: You need to.
[00:15:05] You need to show up, be in the space, all up in the space, let them see, feel, touch, taste all of you. And the only way they’re going to do it is if you show up. So what does that look like? Exactly. Okay. And of course, let me tell you, it looks like
[00:15:18] Karin: I can picture you talking in the mirror right now. I love it.
[00:15:22] Nequosha: Listen, my red lipstick is fire. I have like six different ones. I can give you all blue toes, orange tones, income. Sorry.
[00:15:29] But really it looks like? being on podcasts,
[00:15:33] doing zooms. It looks like having speaking engagement. It looks like showing up and say, Yes.
[00:15:38] I’ll join your board. If that aligns for you now, do not overcome.
[00:15:42] Just to say I showed up because then you don’t get stressed out,
[00:15:45] but say, okay. my monthly goal is to have five networking. Yeah. Boom. What does that look like? That looks like me saying I’m going to go to this bar event. This looks like I’m going to go this women organization. This look like I’m going to join my kids board or w I
[00:16:00] forgot what SAC PTA or
[00:16:03] The school advisory board that looks like. I am going to advocate for this women’s shelter. If that’s more, or this animal shelter or
[00:16:10] this, this organization speaks to me, I’m going to ask them how I can assist. And I’m going to become an avid. Right.
[00:16:17] You got to figure out whatever that looks like for you and show up end.
[00:16:21] Even if five is too much in a month, just start off with one of them. Set a goal of saying I’m going to do one a month. And then when you get there, don’t just talk to the people. You know,
[00:16:32] don’t just talk to the people, you know, don’t just talk to the people, you know, because there may be another individual in that space who just wants one person to reach out to them and you will change the trajectory of that one individual.
[00:16:45] when someone says. Listen,
[00:16:47] I’m trying to tell y’all I have gone into spaces and places where, of course I have been the only black woman in this space and I will own it. I will go talk to the shoe on the floor. My mama said, girl, you will talk to anything, show a wheel We’ll do it. So it’s one of those things where you can’t be, don’t let fear consume you.
[00:17:06] fear is only there because you don’t know what’s on the other side, but you know how we find out what’s on the other side by doing.
[00:17:11] And did we like it? I don’t know because I haven’t done it.
[00:17:15] And yes, it’s easier said than done. I’m telling a girl I’m speaking from experience
[00:17:19] because how many black business RP attorneys do you know?
[00:17:23] Karin: I know one and I’m talking to her right now.
[00:17:26] Nequosha: There you go. and I don’t know most people in America, I don’t think they realize that black women lawyers or black lawyers in general only make up 5% of the lawyer population in the entire United States of America.
[00:17:38] We are only 5%.
[00:17:41] Karin: But look at first of all, how much room for improvement there is there and how much of an impact you can make because you are representing such a small group. So you get out there and you have so much potential to make all those impacts be super memorable and get out there and, and do all that networking and, make all those changes.
[00:18:00] Nequosha: girl. Listen, let me tell you when I started law school, I didn’t know, not one attorney.
[00:18:06] I started law school, not knowing one attorney. It wasn’t until I made the commitment that I am going to meet in merge myself in this environment. And that’s how I left law school with a job.
[00:18:17] Karin: That’s amazing.
[00:18:18] Nequosha: I secured a preliminary internship because my intellectual property professor shout out to professor Herman, took a liking to me and she invited me to a private event that she was having.
[00:18:30] Karin: And Nicola, did you stay home or did you show up at that event?
[00:18:33] Nequosha: I showed all the way up. You feel me?
[00:18:36] Karin: They just pulling it back up to her, pulling it back to her.
[00:18:39] Nequosha: girl, they connect the dots.
[00:18:41] We lawyers, we can do it. We can come Full circle.
[00:18:44] moment. Okay. So I showed all the way up
[00:18:47] because when they told me during one L year that 99%, well, 90 something percent of the jobs in the legal field are not advertised. They mean.
[00:18:57] people like to work with people they know like, and trucks, it’s the same thing in business. People want to do business with the people they know, like, and trust.
[00:19:04] It sounds simple because That’s really honestly, truly what it is
[00:19:08] and the same way I’m talking to you. It’s the same way I talk to my clients.
[00:19:12] It’s the same way I get my job done because I am me at all times. I can’t be anything else. I have tried. It don’t work.
[00:19:19] Karin: It doesn’t work, but I feel like that is, it’s a perfect alignment with the idea of a podcast. So you guys started a podcast and it’s done pretty well. And you’ve got a bunch of episodes. How many episodes have you got?
[00:19:33] Nequosha: Oh, you’re talking about. Yes. So our um, the show you she’s referencing is called professional use only. And professional use only was started for black women professionals to have an outlet, especially when they feel like they’re the only ones in the space.
[00:19:46] And our slogan is we are where keeping it professional gets real.
[00:19:50] We talk about the things that you want to be able to have your cubicle, buddy, your personal somebody to talk to. And we talk about things that an in and outside of.
[00:19:59] the careers, because they’re all connected. So check us out. We’re on all listening platforms, just where you found this one, you can find us.
[00:20:05] Karin: And you’ve been around, it’s been like a year or two, right. That
[00:20:08] Nequosha: yes, we are almost two years. We were 70 plus episodes. So we have plenty of material for you to go catch up on. If you’re already listening,
[00:20:17] Karin: And that’s, it’s a perfect alignment with this idea of showing up and being there. And like you were saying the know, like, and trust idea where you’re just constantly providing all that valuable information. They feel like they’re getting to know you eventually, they must like you, if they keep coming back to those episodes and then that instantly just leads right into trust.
[00:20:38] Nequosha: most definitely people can’t know you if they don’t, if you don’t show up people, can’t like you, if you don’t show up,
[00:20:43] people can’t trust.
[00:20:45] you. If you don’t show up. So where do we need to do? Let’s get information and show up.
[00:20:50] Karin: There we go well, and lawyers, I mean, it’s not like they’re ever short on things to say and do so like just write some blog posts. If it’s not going to be a podcast, then at least be writing blog posts and, or getting out there in the real world, like you were saying, and do your networking events show up in whatever way is going to work for you?
[00:21:09] I think that’s so valuable. I, really hope people can really connect with that. So.
[00:21:13] Nequosha: Yeah,
[00:21:14] most definitely. Most people have smart phones and most smart phones are connected with a recorder is some type of way you can either say, Hey blank, depending on if you have an Android or an apple device and it will open up a recording.
[00:21:26] And all you got to do is start talking. If you
[00:21:28] can’t write, if you can’t type talk, because the beauty of these things are, they. transcribe
[00:21:35] goo. If you have Google docs, if you start talking to Google docs, they have the type text feature. So it will start typing what you say. And it’ll be an amazing that less editing for you Bo
[00:21:46] I’m saying they have all these different tools nowadays.
[00:21:49] You just have to pick up the tool. And then I think that’s the confusion. Most people think that, oh, well I just grew up. Whoever have you identified colleague professional, pick up the tools and use them. Okay. Get more in your toolbox.
[00:22:03] Karin: Yeah, just get it out of your head and you know, out to the people. Okay, so we are going to talk about your book. So which book do you recommend for our audience today? What have you either been reading or that you think is an excellent book?
[00:22:17] Nequosha: Now listen. I love to read, I am such a total nerd at heart. I have the Libby app. So if you? don’t have the Libby app, get the Libby app,
[00:22:24] you can get books and audio books for free 99. And we who don’t like free 99. I
[00:22:29] Karin: I connect the Libby to my library. Yes. And the Kindle. So the library, the Kindle, and like this year I’ll read 100 books. And if I had to number one, buy them all, or number two, have a physical hundred books sitting around each year. My house would be overrun. So I loved, you know, using technology for this.
[00:22:49] Nequosha: I love it.
[00:22:49] too. So I’m one. Did he keep books that, let me tell you how I’m dedicated to this book, right? So not only did I. Preview it out on the Libby app, but I went in another resource. If you are a T like a book book person like me, I go
[00:23:02] to thrift books.com
[00:23:04] and I get my books for a fraction of the cost.
[00:23:06] They are gently used and I’m supporting local thrift stores.
[00:23:10] Okay. So there’s that. Anyway, the book is called why some ideas survive and others died, made to stick.
[00:23:15] so it is by. Yes, It is by chip Heath and Dan Heath. I believe they’re brothers. I don’t know,
[00:23:22] but it, but either way, girl, guy, person who listening, y’all need to pick up this book because it gives you tools and tips on why the brain functions to remember things and how we remember things like is the idea, does it have concreteness?
[00:23:38] Does. Kima to relate it to, for example, I have a little page here and if you don’t mind, I’m just going to read this
[00:23:44] one little line.
[00:23:45] Karin: While you’re finding that quote. I was just going to add that one of my marketing professors basically talked about how the definition of, of marketing and your marketing sucks is successful if it’s memorable. So you’re just trying to make sure that used to stay top of mind. And there’s a million different ways of doing that.
[00:24:02] And, but that’s, that’s your marketing is to just be memorable.
[00:24:05] Nequosha: That is you just go, you stole my thunder,
[00:24:09] but so that’s Okay.
[00:24:11] We in this together,
[00:24:12] but on page 1 0 4 of the book made to stick, it says, what makes something concrete? If you can examine something with your senses is concrete. A V8 engine is concrete. but high performance is abstract. Most of the time, concreteness boils down to specific people doing specific things.
[00:24:30] And one of the key things that also that. Like girl, I could just keep reading from this book, but it just basically says concrete Ideas are easier to remember
[00:24:40] take individual words. For instance, experiments in the human memory have shown that people are better at remembering concrete, easily visualized noun, such as bicycle or avocado, more so than abstract ones, such as justice or personality.
[00:24:55] So if you put it in those ways, it
[00:24:58] just makes sense. It’s concrete,
[00:25:01] does it stick? And that right there is why we remember got milk. That is why we know that the black and white cow is associated with Chick-fil-A it’s those types of things.
[00:25:14] Karin: Yes, I love it. Okay. We will link to your book and we have a nice little library on our website for the podcast where all the books that different people recommend are all on there. And it’ll eventually, as the podcast becomes older and older, it’ll be all built out and it’ll be a nice little resource for people to go find a lot of
[00:25:31] Business books. and
[00:25:32] actually it’s not even all business books. There’s been some really cool, like spiritual things people have been talking about and everything, but they’re all good resources and books, and I’ve, I’ve read, made to stick. It’s a great one. It’s a classic and so many
[00:25:43] Nequosha: nobody did so many good things
[00:25:46] Karin: Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time. And I know that this is super valuable. There’s going to be great takeaways, especially for women lawyers about how to just be present and be out there and get over that fear. So, thanks again.
[00:26:00] Nequosha: Thank you for having me.