Making a Difference Through a Career in Civil Rights Law

Episode Notes

Transcript

Montana Funk:

This is Young Lawyer Rising from the ABA Young Lawyers, Division and Legal Talk Network. Welcome back listeners. I’m your host, Montana Funk. Today, listeners, I’m joined by Michael Kippins. Michael Kippins is a lawyer for the Lawyers for Civil Rights. In his role, Michael represents clients in a variety of civil rights cases, including police accountability, education, employment, and climate justice. Most recently, Michael filed a landmark civil rights complaint against Harvard University, challenging the discriminatory impact of legacy and donor admissions preferences. I’m so excited for Michael to be joining me today. Good afternoon, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Michael Kippins:

Thank you for having me, Montana. I appreciate it.

Montana Funk:

No, I appreciate you jumping on and we are kind of just going to get right into it today. I think this topic is something we haven’t really touched on in the area of civil rights. So an easy question to start. I just want you to tell our listeners how you got involved and how you joined Lawyers for Civil Rights and what exactly that position looks like right now.

Michael Kippins:

Sure. So I got involved with Lawyers for Civil Rights after having done some pro bono work with some of the coworkers that I now have over at LCR. And I was doing that pro bono work while working at law firms. And the more and more I did pro bono work, the more I was interested in changing my practice into that kind of skill, that kind of impact that I would have on the community that was vulnerable that we could see.

Montana Funk:

I think that’s really an interesting perspective because you said something that I think is important is that it’s a skill and I think I’m a litigator. I do criminal defense and I used to do civil Litigation, and it definitely is, at least from my perspective, I’m sure a different skill that you have to develop being a civil rights attorney separate from other types of Litigation. So have you, in your pro bono work then moving over to this area of law, what have you learned that you think is, or that you noticed is a different skill or stuff that you’ve had to develop that you didn’t realize at first was, Hey, this is actually something that I didn’t expect to have as a civil rights attorney, but now I’m developing?

Michael Kippins:

Absolutely. So I have a background or had a background beforehand as a civil litigator as well. I did civil Litigation mostly at medium size and large law firms for most of my practice. And one thing that has been quite different changing over to doing work at Lawyers for Civil Rights is actually quite a few things. One is the personnel that I work with and the communities that I work with. When I was a litigator, I mostly did commercial and business Litigation for institutions, and then changing over to lawyers for civil rights. Of course, most of the work that we do and that I do specifically is with community groups and vulnerable communities. So there’s been quite a change in just the clientele that I work with. Also, there’s been a change in the fact that I’ve gone from doing defense side work to plaintiff’s side work. That’s another area that has been quite different since making that transition. And I think one other thing to highlight is the importance of media coverage and the amount of pressure and leverage that can be used and utilized to bring about the result for your client on the plaintiff side that we would certainly want to avoid in terms of press on the defense side.

Montana Funk:

So there’s a couple of things you said there that I want to touch on in parts, and the first one I want to go back to is how these different communities that you’re working with, it sounds to me like there’s probably more emotion behind it and you’re dealing with actual communities, people that you could actually see this impacting versus maybe it’s a little bit different on the level where it’s big corporations or what you’d see in a big law firm. So how have you found, or what have you found has helped you with dealing with these communities where they are more emotionally charged, where there is more emotion in it? What have you found this helped you to become that attorney that can then work with these communities and really shape the person that you want to be?

Michael Kippins:

I think being engaged is the most important part. I certainly have had a passion for this type of work for quite some time, despite the fact that I worked in and for large corporations. So the idea that I’d be able to communicate well and clearly and with a compassion for these community members is something that I think is an aptitude of mine, something that I’ve been also channeling energy into for a long time, and whether that’s through outside engagements that I have with some groups that I work with or whether it’s been through pro bono work or just simply assistance that I’m able to provide in any other way. So I think one of the things that helps is just understanding that you are having an impact on people’s lives that they wouldn’t necessarily get assistance with if not for you. And yes, at times it certainly can be heavy, it can weigh on you as you know that there are very high stakes, but at the same time you understand that pressing forward on a claim or on an issue for a client in the community who has a very serious issue, whether it be with respect to their livelihood, their employment, their housing, their civil rights in general, that’s something that if you don’t get assistance with, you may not see your rights come to pass.

And that is something that I think would be a shame, and I want it to be a part of the process to help fix it.

Montana Funk:

So something that I’m curious about is obviously in law school and going back to our listeners who are either just graduated or graduating this year in law school, we don’t necessarily have a class that’s geared towards this kind of work or work that preparing you for work that is emotionally draining like this work. I’m not saying that in a bad way, but it definitely does take an emotional toll on lawyers who have to deal with, like you said, very important. I mean, the communities that you’re dealing with and the clients that you’re dealing with are dealing with things such as you said, like age, work, race, things that are very, very important to them and are very emotionally driven. So how did you know coming out of law school that this was an area you wanted to work in, especially when that’s not maybe highlighted while we’re actually in law school?

Michael Kippins:

From my perspective, working in the civil rights area, or at the very least, representing people who are not in a position to represent themselves is something that I always wanted to do. It’s sort of the overall theme of why I went to law school and how I’ve approached my practice since then. In terms of civil rights in particular, as you would see if you looked at my background, I certainly didn’t start in that arena. And what my goal was, was to basically build skills that I could use eventually to impact the areas that I wanted to impact. So that looked like getting training at some of the best institutions and law firms and clerkships that I could find in order to build those skills up, gain an expertise, and become comfortable with the idea that I could be a litigator. And once I felt comfortable in that role and had the opportunity to press forward on a lot of different types of claims, whether they be on the defense side for trade secrets or non-compete agreements or class action, product liability types of lawsuits, once become comfortable with the actual procedure of litigating, it becomes easier in my mind to apply that skill or apply those skills to other areas.

One of which for me was civil rights. So that’s why I structured my career as I’ll call it, the way that I did in terms of getting those skills first and then applying those skills in a way that I thought I could be most helpful to the community.

Montana Funk:

I want to take a quick break, but when we get back, I do want to touch more on those skills you just discussed as well as the media coverage aspect of this as well.

Michael Kippins:

Absolutely.

Montana Funk:

So before the break, we were talking about how you kind of had this journey and your background. You didn’t start in this area of law, but what you did to shape your background to then come into this area to really build a career where you could help people and feel really fulfilled in what you’re doing. And one of the things that you were discussing is building those skills first as a litigator and then that kind of helped shape you. So can you tell our listeners what skills exactly you’re talking about and how you built them?

Michael Kippins:

Yes. So when I graduated from law school, I clerked for my first year after law school at the Massachusetts Appeals Court for an intermediate appeals court judge. And one of the skills that I learned there, of course, was to research, to write and to opine in some ways on issues that have come through the court, have gone through a trial or some sort of resolution and then found their way to an appeals court. So working with a judge to determine what the correct answer was under the law is something that I don’t think can be overstated in terms of importance because while later I turned to being an advocate as opposed to being an assistant to a nonpartisan judge, the idea is once you’re able to understand what the law requires, you can shape your story and advocate for your client in a way that best applies to that law or best is covered by that law.

So I think that’s one skill that I learned through clerking. I also later clerked at the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court for Justice Margo Botsford. And something that I learned there having been at the State’s Supreme Court is how policy can be used to shape the law as well. And when it’s the case that a state supreme court can make changes and is not necessarily covered by certain precedents as an appeals court or a trial court would be, so that was a different experience. Then following along those lines of Litigation and wanting to learn more of those skills, I chose to go to a firm that effectively encouraged me to hit the ground running and to be in court to draft briefs, to take depositions and to really at a junior level make sure that I was gaining the skills that I would be able to use in any type of Litigation.

Because I was working on the defense side, we were typically fielding complaints and learning how to answer those complaints or how to use the law to file motions to dismiss. And we also learned how to draft and file and argue motions for summary judgment and within the discovery periods certainly to learn what’s important to find in the documents, what’s important to reach out to witnesses on, and whether that be witnesses that you are calling to be in your favor or whether it’s doing a deposition of a witness that is not favorable to you. So being able to learn all of those skills and then apply them in a Courtroom and go to oral argument or to go to trial or to even be in an alternative resolution session like a mediation. All of these skills are ones that I wanted to have under my belt and that the firms that I worked for allowed me to do, and to a certain extent, it required taking initiative and I was okay with that. I was okay with being the person who didn’t know everything about something but was willing to learn. And I think that that was very helpful and I had great mentors. I still have great mentors who still teach me to this day how to practice law in the best way possible that’s most advantageous to my clients.

Montana Funk:

So correct me if I’m wrong, but when you, and you’re speaking, it kind of brings up this idea to me that I hope our listeners can take away that the journey throughout being an attorney is not linear, right? I mean, you experienced, you had clerk experience, defense experience, civil Litigation at a big firm, and it really speaks to me because I want our listeners to know you don’t have to have the answer of what you’re going to do or where you’re going to fall immediately out of law school, right? Because as you’re saying in all these different areas that you practice, you got different skills. So is that something that, I guess, am I correct in saying that having those different areas really helped shape the lawyer you are today?

Michael Kippins:

Without question, without question. I think that it’s really important to highlight that even when you do think you know what you want to do, it may not end up being what you want to do. And that’s okay. You could also be the person who doesn’t know what they want to do and just tries different things out until they find that path. And I think emphasizing that the path, as you said is anything but linear is crucial because I could understand why someone who doesn’t have the experience might think, oh, well, I have to make sure that I take this path and I get on this track that I stay on that track until I succeed and find my ultimate goal. And I think in some ways just getting out there and getting experience is very helpful, whether that’s experience in a sense that I know I don’t want to do this type of practice or be in this type of environment, or whether that is, Hey, I didn’t expect to enjoy this type of practice or this environment so much, but I do.

So I’m glad that I tried it out. And I’ve worked with a number of people who have been in very different environments, whether that be in the firm environment as judges, as government workers, as nonprofit leaders or as civil rights nonprofit workers. So I think many of them have had a path or a journey that has involved several different types of environments and several different types of practice areas. So I took from that that it means you could still succeed from an objective perspective, even if you don’t say, join a law firm on day one and then find yourself retiring as a partner from that law firm, right? There are certainly people who can do that, and certainly people who want to do that and ultimately succeed in doing that. And that’s great, that’s absolutely great. But it doesn’t take away from the idea that you could start day one at a law firm, understand that it’s not ultimately what you want to do, but that you appreciate the experience and the training it provides, and then take your talents to something else to want to try that as well.

Montana Funk:

It definitely does show that there’s not one certain path to success, and you can go many different ways, and it doesn’t mean, it doesn’t guarantee, like you said, joining a firm and becoming partner at that firm, that does not make you more successful over an individual who did not start, let’s say, at a firm. So I think that’s just a really important message, and I’m glad you touched on that. I want our listeners to always know that like we said, your journey’s not going to be linear. You might start with something you think you’ll love and then end up switching, and that’s totally okay. So I appreciate you touching on that, and I want to take one more quick break and then jump into a little bit more of the important work you’ve been recently doing. So before the break, we were talking about journeys and how you’ve gotten to where you are today. And something I want to make sure we touch on is obviously earlier you mentioned media coverage and how that’s important in your work today because it is something that gets brought up, especially recently, you did file a landmark civil rights claim against Harvard University, and I want you to touch on that a little bit and explain to our listeners just briefly for those who don’t know what that civil rights complaint is, what exactly that was?

Michael Kippins:

Absolutely. So I recently filed following on the heels of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision last summer, a federal complaint to the US Department of Education’s office for civil rights. The idea behind the complaint is that we are alleging that Harvard University’s practice of providing preferential treatment in the admissions process to legacies and to those applicants who are related to wealthy donors violates Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. So what that means is basically that we are alleging that Harvard’s practice has a disproportionate impact on people of color, applicants of color in the admissions process because donor and legacy preferences allow a student to be admitted at much greater rates than those who do not have those preferences available to them. And that at Harvard, for the period of time that we’re talking about, nearly 70% of the applicants who received that preference and were admitted were white applicants.

And that legacies, for example, could make up almost a third of the class at Harvard, which we know is one of the most prestigious universities in the world. We also know from data that Harvard disclosed during its lawsuit that it brought ultimately to the Supreme Court that the applications and admissions data says if you were to remove donor and legacy preferences, that the admission rates for people of color would go up and the admission rates for white applicants would go down. So that’s in some ways how we show that the data supports our claim, that there’s a disproportionate impact on people of color. And with respect to Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it inhibits universities and colleges that receive federal funding from instituting programs or procedures that discriminate on the basis of race among other things. So by alleging that there’s a disproportionate impact on people of color in the admissions process and where Harvard certainly receives quite a bit of federal funding, and by quite a bit, I mean in the several millions, it’s something that Harvard should not be able to continue, and it has everything to do with equity and fairness in the process with diversity on campus and with the idea that when a person looks at their outlook for education, that they feel there’s a fair playing ground.

And in no sense should we ever have a situation where a person of color stares at a rejection letter while a less qualified white applicant celebrates being the second or third or fourth in their line to attend Harvard University.

Montana Funk:

That’s a really, really important thing that you just touched on. And I commend that you’re doing that work because obviously people who are behind the media of this, and I shouldn’t say behind the media, I guess behind this and don’t see this or don’t understand what’s going on, probably wouldn’t ever look into this right? Or would not ever know. And it’s such an important topic, and it’s such an important thing, like you said, the fairness and making sure that there is diversity. Because one thing that you said that really strikes out to me is that there are people who are less qualified applicants that based on their skin color are going to have an advantage over another individual who’s more qualified. And that’s completely unfair, and it makes me sad that that’s something that we’re still dealing with today. So something I want to ask you is how did this even come on your radar? How did this come to fruition and how did you notice like, okay, this is an issue and we need to do something about it?

Michael Kippins:

Donor and legacy preferences have been an issue for quite some time. Well, before I started my tenure at Lawyers for Civil Rights, but with the Supreme Courts affirmative action decision, which limited the consideration of race as a factor in the admissions process, we thought it was all the more imperative to make sure that we were breaking down barriers to access to education for people of color. And one of those ways is to eliminate donor and legacy preferences in the process. As I said before, we have substantial data, particularly from Harvard that shows what the impact is, where donor and legacy applicants are six to seven times more likely to be admitted to Harvard than those who don’t have those benefits in their back pocket. And the reality is that those donor and legacy preferences aren’t earned by the applicant. It has nothing to do with any work that they’ve done, any project that they’ve turned in any effort on their part, it’s simply a right or a benefit really that is conferred upon them by nature of the family that they were born into. And from lawyers for civil rights perspective, from my perspective specifically, that’s not a fair way to judge an applicant’s merit.

Montana Funk:

Absolutely isn’t fair. And obviously I know that this isn’t the case, but it shouldn’t be fair to anyone. It shouldn’t be in fair in the eyes of truly anyone. So like I said, I appreciate that you’re bringing this to light on this podcast and working on this because it is such an important thing and it’s not fair. And I want to ask you, obviously you having personal experience with this, how has your identity as a black attorney shaped your work, not only with this legacy admissions case, but just in general, your journey as a lawyer and your journey as an individual in a profession such as this?

Michael Kippins:

Well, I think there are several ways that my identity has shaped my practice, my approach, and a number of other things. I think in a professional sense, in some ways I feel as though I’m the Flagg bearer for my race, particularly in environments like law firms where there aren’t a lot of people of color who rise through the ranks and really people of color that are even at the firms to begin with. So in some sense, you feel a pressure, and I felt a pressure certainly to perform, and in some ways that pressure probably made me a better attorney, but in other ways, that pressure was unwarranted. It’s the type of thing that you receive as pressure that isn’t really the type of pressure you would want to put on someone who you want to succeed, in my opinion. It’s a pressure that people feel, I think, and for certainly colleagues that I’ve spoken with who have received similar pressure.

I think it’s the type of thing where if you work at a law firm and that law firm doesn’t have a lot of people of color, people judge your work and your abilities and then make a call about how they view people of color as attorneys and whether they’re able to hack it. And I think that that’s true, whether people are willing to say it or they aren’t. I think particularly working in Boston, which has a particular reputation for race related issues at the very least, is another factor that weighs into how I view my identity and how it relates to my approach for my practice. The firms that I’ve worked in have had very little diversity, and thankfully I’ve had a number of colleagues who were incredibly supportive of what my needs were, both as an attorney in general and as a black attorney as well.

I think speaking up for myself was an important part of that, and it has helped me to be able to identify and communicate with those who can make changes. And I think that that’s something that has helped me in my career as well. Advocacy comes from a lot of different angles. I’m an advocate for my clients without question, but I also need to be an advocate for myself in a lot of ways to make sure that I’m getting the experience, that I’m getting the utility out of what I’m doing, out of the job that I have. So I put a little bit of that pressure on myself, of course, but it certainly starts with a lot of outside pressure from a personal standpoint, being a black man, being in Boston in today’s environment. Over the past several years, we’ve seen how black men in America are treated, how black men in America, particularly with respect to police interaction are treated and not really anything stops me from being a George Floyd, an ah, Maud Arbery, a Trayvon Martin, and a number of other people in that line who have been treated by police or treated by law enforcement in general, whether those be prosecutors or otherwise, or treated by members of the general public in a hostile and racial manner.

And my law degree, though, I of course love the fact that I have it, that I’m able to represent others in that way. My law degree is not how I would be identified on the street. It is not a badge, it is not a shield. It is not something that I can outwardly convey that would change the circumstances for me as opposed to any other black man. And I understand that, and I think of course it’s horrendous, but I think it informs my experience and it informs the fact that I need to take an approach to these matters that is sensitive and sympathetic and empathetic to a lot of the community members that I work with who oftentimes look like me.

Montana Funk:

I mean, I really truly want to commend you for not only your work and your efforts, but also just being so candid with me today. Obviously these topics are very difficult to discuss because it is unfair and there is a lot of unjust things happening that aren’t being discussed as much as they should be. So I appreciate you being so vulnerable with me and being open to talking about that. And something I want to make sure we touch on is how you think our listeners who are listening to this today can support these civil rights movements that we’ve discussed today and become more involved.

Michael Kippins:

There are a number of ways to do so. If you want to work at a nonprofit, that’s one way. If you want to work at a law firm and do pro bono work, that’s another way. If you want to have any other type of job and join an outside organization with your free time, that’s another way. There’s really no shortage of opportunities if you’re willing to put in the time. And I think that there’s value to those outside organizations in different ways. Certainly you can give back as an attorney, but it also helps you to build your own network. And I think I have been a part of leadership in the Massachusetts Black Lawyers Association, the Boston Bar Association. I work with the Boys and Girls Clubs of Boston, each of which I have a passion for. And that has helped both in a personal sense and a professional sense, where I feel I’ve been very intentional about meeting new people and about maintaining those relationships, not simply so that I can check a box, but so that I feel that we’re making a real connection where they understand that I am there for them and I understand that they are there for me.

And sometimes those relationships pay dividends in unexpected ways. So it’s important to be able to reach out, to have a touch on other organizations, other people, other networks in order to advance your career certainly, but also to advance your own personal stake in the game.

Montana Funk:

Well, Michael, like I said, I want to thank you again for jumping on here, for being so willing to speak and being so vulnerable with me. And I’m going to end off with one easy question because I think it’s time to end off with that. And like I said, we’ve talked a lot about stuff that’s really heavy and important. So to end off with an easier one, can you tell our listeners today where they can find you?

Michael Kippins:

Absolutely. So I have a LinkedIn, if you search Michael Kippen, you can find me also Google very easily, and you can find me on the Lawyers for Civil Rights website as well. And there are probably a number of other ways, but I think those are the primary ways to be able to find me. And I’m very open to having conversations with folks about either the work that I’m doing, my approach to my own career, or what I’ve done so far. And I think I’ve tried to mentor several people to create that pipeline that I was a part of, that I am a part of in terms of advancing people of color, advancing younger lawyers, and making sure that they can succeed in the environment that they would like to see themselves succeed in.

Montana Funk:

Well, those are all very well said things, and I do hope that our listeners can have some important takeaways from today’s episode. And thank you again for joining me, Michael,

Michael Kippins:

I should add one more thing as another way to either find me or see me, that I will be speaking on some of the federal civil rights issues regarding donor and legacy preferences against Harvard at South by Southwest’s Educational Seminar week on March 7th. So if you’re in the area or would like to attend, please stop by

Montana Funk:

Listeners, check that out. Thank you again, Michael. I appreciate

Michael Kippins:

It. Thank you for having me, Montana.

Montana Funk:

I want to thank Michael Kippins for joining us today, and listeners, I hope you enjoy our discussion. Until next time, I’m Montana Funk and you’ve been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers, Division and the audio professionals at Legal Talk Network.