#527: Casting Your Vision and Leading Your Firm, with Kevin DeShazo

Episode Notes

Transcript

Zack Glaser (00:11): 

Hi, I’m Zack Glaser. 

  

Stephanie Everett (00:13): 

And I’m Stephanie Everett. And this is episode 527 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Zack is talking with fellow coach Kevin DeShazo about leadership and developing people on your team. 

  

Zack Glaser (00:29): 

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Omnizantizant, so stick around and you’ll hear my conversation with Sam Youngblood here in a second. So Stephanie, we’ve got the elections coming up, and I think that might be a bad word to say sometimes in our culture right now, I think people shy away from talking about elections, the electoral process, politics. I think it’s something that a show like ours has a tendency to say stay out of politics. But you and I were talking the other day about how lawyers inherently are political, not necessarily partisan political, are ideas political, and that got us talking about the paper that came out from the ABA, the task force for American democracy. And I kind of just wanted to discuss that in our intro here. 

  

Stephanie Everett (01:27): 

I mean, as lawyers, we need to defend and we should be advocates. I think for the judicial branch, it’s an important part of our democracy, right? And yet somehow I think it’s right, this idea of politics versus being partisan. We need a place where we can have discourse, where we can discuss and debate and acknowledge and uphold the ideals that are so true and fundamental to our system. And that doesn’t mean we necessarily have to get into a partisan debate about which side, but what is our role as officers of the court, as members of the system? And I love that the A kind of came out with this and said, Hey, it’s our democracy. We all need to get involved and we all need to defend it. 

  

Zack Glaser (02:14): 

Yeah, and I think it’s about the democracy as opposed to being about one side or the other. In any sense, you and I agree on many things, disagree on many things. I know growing up, one of the things I really, really appreciated about my father was his ability to take a step back and kind of look at something from a, I don’t even want to say a neutral observer, but a judicious observer, somebody kind of saying, okay, what are the arguments here? What can we look at? And drawing conclusions from there and being able to see and empathize with the other side. One of the sentences or ideas that I got out of this paper though early on, first paragraph, they say that our constitution creates a system of government that compels bargaining, negotiation and compromise, which is easy to do when you’re really close to somebody else, when your ideas are really close to somebody else. But how do we do that when we’re pulling from two totally different directions? 

  

Stephanie Everett (03:24): 

And honestly, it’s the part of society that I miss. I’ll be honest, I love political discourse. I love debating the issues. I watched the news probably more than some say I should. One of the things that I loved and that I missed is when I had my law firm, my business partner, the person I started the firm with, so he, I’m just going to say it, he was Republican, I’m a Democrat, and we did not agree on many issues, and yet we had the most fun true debates discussing the issues and figuring it out. And that idea of compromise that you just mentioned, we would often come to places where it was like, okay, maybe I don’t go as far as you. Maybe he comes over a little from me. We would listen to each other’s ideas, and it’s through that process that I think you get to the best ideas, you get to the place of compromise. That’s what our system is built on, 

  

Zack Glaser (04:24): 

Right? Well, I mean, honestly, that’s what many judgments are. I know I spent a lot of time in general sessions court, that’s just where my practice was in general sessions court, I think more than anything else has this idea of you both lose a little bit and that’s compromised there in my mind is what can we live with? What can we see somebody else’s perspective on? What can we understand, frankly that somebody else reasonable minds can disagree? Somebody else can think differently than me and not be coming at it from an evil perspective, from an idea that they’re trying to get something over me. I like to say that nobody is Darth Vader in their own story. They’re doing something. You may think it’s horribly, horribly wrong, but nobody’s Darth Vader in their own story. They’re all Luke Skywalker. 

  

Stephanie Everett (05:24): 

And maybe to sort of bring it back to our listeners who are mostly lawyers, we have this obligation to defend this system and to fight for it, to fight for the ability to have the discourse, and to have the disagreements and to come to the compromise. And it does feel a little threatened right now, and the Abba’s paper calls this out and says, Hey, with this election coming up, we need to be involved. So whether that means speaking out and defending the election process and no, this thing works and it is working or getting involved in your local community as a poll worker. I mean the paper itself, which we’ll put a link to in the show notes, it has all these things. It ends with, okay, lawyers, what we need you to do, you got to get involved and here’s your list and volunteer and gives you 10 different ways to volunteer. Be a democracy leader in your community, doing something as simple as acknowledging our constitution and our rule of law and standing up for the judicial process, right? Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (06:33): 

I mean, we’re sworn to do so. We’re literally sworn to do so. And honestly, reading this, I was like, oh yeah, I am sworn to defend the constitution here. And it’s why we get so many of the rights that we have, but at the same time, we have, all of us spent a certain amount of time studying the law. We have this invested moment, we’ve invested a part of our lives, and this being something we believe in now, if you want it to adjust, it can adjust, but ripping things down wholly and undermining the idea of democracy is not something that we can really stand for as 

  

Stephanie Everett (07:23): 

Attorneys. And maybe in a weird way, this sits really nicely with your conversation with Kevin today because it’s all about leadership and accountability, and it starts with you and how you show up for yourself and then for your team, and for your community, for your clients. So if there’s any call to action from this intro today, it’s like get involved, do your duty as a lawyers, our system demands it. 

  

Zack Glaser (07:52): 

Be a leader, be a leader in this, step out and be a leader of this. Absolutely. Well, now here’s my conversation with Sam from Omnizant, and then we’ll get into my conversation with Kevin about leadership. 

  

(08:04): 

Hey y’all, Zack, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyerist, and today I’ve got Sam Youngblood with me of Omnizant Marketing, and we are talking about the differences between legalese writing and content marketing writing. Sam, come on. Are there really differences there? 

  

Sam Youngblood (08:24): 

Well, yes, Zack, of course there are differences and I’m so happy to be here to talk about this. So what I’ll say those primary differences are at a high level, first, the purpose of the content, the audience for the content, the style and tone in which the content is written, the structure of the page of content. And of course, as you noted with your mention of legalese, the language used in the content is a big difference there between the two because really content marketing is intended for a law firm’s potential clients or the broader public and legal writing is written for other legal professionals, the courts or parties to an agreement. 

  

Zack Glaser (09:24): 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we’re trying to impress or impress upon the other parties or the judge or make people recognize how smart we are and how shiny our degrees are. Whereas writing for, I don’t know, I’m just going to say normal humans or just humans in general, is I think a little bit more about actually getting your point across and potentially entertaining or just writing for your client or potential client, right? 

  

Sam Youngblood (09:58): 

Yeah, exactly. So that’s why a good place to start is understanding your audience and those prospective clients and what their information gathering needs are. And if you work with a marketing agency, talk to them about who they’re writing for, because I know at Omnizantist we create buyer personas that inform the content that we create for our clients because it always is helpful to have your ideal client in mind when you’re working on a new blog post for your website, for example. 

  

Zack Glaser (10:33): 

Right? Okay. All kidding aside, as lawyers, we don’t use legalese just because we want to sound fancy or impress people or make people not be able to understand us. We use it a lot of times because it’s correct, because it’s the right word. So as a lawyers trying to do my content marketing, I sit there in this push pull of I want to be right. I want my content to be correct, but I also want people to read it. It can be over here on my website, super correct and filled with legalese and beautifully written and a great, great argument, but nobody’s going to read that stuff. No human is going to read that stuff, and then I’m not going to have any clients, but I can’t then just release this writing to somebody that’s not going to even think about that. I don’t want it to be incorrect. I don’t want it to be correct and not read. And then I also don’t want it to be incorrect and all over the place. How do I deal with that as a lawyer? 

  

Sam Youngblood (11:39): 

Yeah. So there’s a couple of things that you can do, and first I just want to note that lawyers are in fact good writers. I’ve talked to many of them over the course of my career, and I also find it fascinating how many lawyers also write historical fiction and pursue it in their free time as well. Lawyers are great at writing contracts, briefs, pleadings, and you also know how to prepare persuasive arguments, 

  

Zack Glaser (12:14): 

Scathing emails. 

  

Sam Youngblood (12:17): 

Exactly. But along with being a cheerleader for Lawyerist writers out there, I’m also a cheerleader for the readers out there, which is why it’s important to understand the differences between the legal writing that you might do for a case that you’re working on versus the writing that will help market yourself and your firm and hopefully help you also get more cases, more leads and grow your business. 

  

Zack Glaser (12:48): 

So then you can write more for the judges that you’re going to be in front of or write more contracts, get more of that done well, then okay, in general, should the lawyers in the office be doing the blog writing? Do they have the time? Is that the best use of their time? 

  

Sam Youngblood (13:10): 

So it’s not, well, I mean, of course I would say that it’s not the best use of your time. It’s up to the attorney, but I’ve yet to speak to attorney who’s not busy, and it can be really beneficial to the rest of your business and your practice if you’re able to turn over the writing of your content to someone who also is understanding of SEO best practices. And a good way to bridge that divide there is provide there to work with an agency like Omnizant. Of course, I’m going to plug our services there. 

  

Zack Glaser (13:52): 

Why else are we here? 

  

Sam Youngblood (13:55): 

Because the writers that are on my team also have their jds, so they have the legal understanding that gives our clients a lot of peace of mind there knowing that the content we create for them will be legally accurate. But my writers are also well versed in SEO and A framework that we were discussing, or that’s relevant. Here is an acronym that Google uses called EEAT, and this is how Google rates the content that IT indexes. And EEAT stands for experience, expertise, authoritative and trust. So of course, attorneys can write from a position of experience and expertise, but someone who knows SEO best practices can sure that that content is also helpful and also gets the attention of Google. When someone types in a relevant search query, then your content will get surfaced. 

  

Zack Glaser (15:03): 

Yeah, I mean, really we’re helping lawyers out with that trust aspect of eat, and I say that jokingly, but that is what we’re doing here, is getting the reader to think that this is helpful, that this is really meant for them, not meant to just make the lawyers sound fancy. 

  

Sam Youngblood (15:27): 

A writer with a legal and NSEO knowhow can really strike that balance that I was talking about between the legally and factually accurate content, but presented in a more accessible format. So this includes things like writing clear and concise subheads or bulleted lists versus large blocks of text. So those are some of the ways in which we even format copy so that it can get recognized by Google through its rating system. 

  

Zack Glaser (16:03): 

So if an attorney wants to start either cleaning up their content marketing or just starting their content marketing, what would you suggest they get started with right now? What’s something they could kind of take away right now that they could do to make that better? 

  

Sam Youngblood (16:20): 

Yeah, so the number one piece of advice I have is understanding your prospective clients and the audience’s information gathering needs, because as we’ve talked about, lawyers do tend to overuse legal jargon to focus on the accuracy over the readability, and then just don’t have the time to devote to creating quality content that’s also SEO friendly. So that’s why a good place to start is just understanding who it is that you’re trying to write for and make sure that your content answers those common questions that I think an attorney can get comfortable answering. You get asked probably very similar questions on intake calls or if you do a free consultation. And so you also want to think about the questions that your existing clients are asking you, and then making sure that your content is answering those questions proactively too. So that’s another good way to get found. 

  

Zack Glaser (17:27): 

Okay. Well, so definitely go create that customer avatar, and if anybody needs help creating that customer avatar, they can find you [email protected]. That’s O-M-N-I-Z-A-N t.com where they can get 

  

Sam Youngblood (17:45): 

Or just send ’em to the website for more information. Yeah, 

  

Zack Glaser (17:49): 

Well, if anybody wants help creating that avatar, they can contact you [email protected]. That’s O-M-N-I-Z-A-N t.com. Sam, thank you once again for being with me. I really appreciate all your information and your help in maybe convincing some lawyers out there that they are not the best content writer in the world. 

  

Sam Youngblood (18:16): 

Relinquish a little bit of the control so you can focus on the other aspects of your business, 

  

Zack Glaser (18:22): 

Right? Go do the thing you were trained for. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Sam, thanks again. I really appreciate your help with all this. 

  

Sam Youngblood (18:30): 

Yeah, this is fantastic. Thank you so much, Zack. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (18:32): 

Hi, I’m Kevin, and I’m an author and speaker and coach consultant to high performing leaders around mindset, leadership and performance. 

  

Zack Glaser (18:41): 

Kevin, thanks for being with me. I think it’s obvious why we had you come on the show. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (18:46): 

Thrilled to be here. 

  

Zack Glaser (18:47): 

I think it’s less obvious why we had me interview you instead of Stephanie, our business coach, but I am outside of this. I’m a cross country coach, a high school cross country coach, and so what you do is fascinating to me, relevant to me, relevant to me as a business leader as well. So I really appreciate you being here and talking with us. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (19:11): 

Yeah, fired up to be with you. 

  

Zack Glaser (19:13): 

So Leah, let’s just kind of jump into it, but I want to give a little bit of a caveat here. I have a feeling you and I were talking before the podcast. I have a feeling we’re going to talk in athletics today, and the obvious connection is that you can take all of the athletics statements and you can turn it to business. And so I don’t want us to get caught up on just making that caveat throughout all of these things. If we are talking about athletics, we’re also obviously talking about business as well. I’ve run a business, I’ve coached kids, and so I just wanted to make that. But I read you have a book out called Keep Chopping Wood, and I love the phrase, love the concept, all of that. If you don’t mind, I think that’s a really good place to start is what does the phrase kind of keep chopping wood mean with us? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (20:14): 

I think that phrase just means two words that immediately come to mind, our commitment and consistency, 

  

(20:21): 

Because the big idea behind the book is you have this vision or this goal for what you want to accomplish or who you want to be. Again, to your point, this could be as an athlete or a coach. This could be in your business. This could be your own personal health. This could be your marriage, your parenting, your finances, anything you have a goal for, something that you want to do or who you want to be, right? This vision in the book is this vision where I actually, the idea was my neighbor had a wood burning fireplace four years ago, and I could smell the wood burning. I’m like, oh, I realized that the wood, you don’t just go chop it and put it in the fireplace. It’s not ready, which meant that in April, my neighbor had a vision for his family being warm in the winter. That demanded something from him in the spring. He didn’t just get to January, be like, well, I’m going to hope for the best. It’s like, no, it’s too late at that point. And so this idea of commitment and consistency when it’s not fun, when it’s not convenient, when it’s not easy, when it’s not sexy or flashier or when nobody’s looking, those who get what they want, those who accomplish their goals are those who are committed and consistent. 

  

Zack Glaser (21:28): 

Yeah. So that resonated with me when I was reading this because quite frankly, I’m not great at that. I am somebody, even in athletics, even in sports, I’m somebody that will go, Hey, I happen to be good at this sport, so I’m going to put a little bit of effort into it, but honestly, if I don’t see some real results within a couple of weeks, it’s going to take a bit for me to do this. And for those who are listening, the Keep chopping wood book is follows a kid, Ethan, who from early high school through his career in I guess sales at an early stage startup, and his mantra in this book is to keep chopping wood and which really translates into do the unsexy stuff and prepare for when winter comes when you need to use that stuff. So that’s kind of what we’re talking about here. One of the things that struck me though in this book was this, and you talked a little bit about it here, this personal identity statement, because I’m never great at being able to say, who am I and what do I stand for? And that’s what this is. It’s a personal identity statement that says, what is it? Who you are, what you’re about, why you’re here. Can you kind of dig into that a little bit for us? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (22:56): 

Yeah. I think our habits and our actions flow out of our identity, 

  

(23:01): 

And most people are living a false identity or untrue identity. Most people are living an identity that’s rooted in fear, a fear of not being good enough, a fear of not having what it takes, a fear of failure, a fear of the opinion of others. And so that dictates our habits. And so to your point, if you’re going to start a sport or a business, and I think you hit on if there’s not a genuine level of interest, most people aren’t going to give their full effort. So interest has to be, curiosity is a key to that. But we get very impatient with that progress and to say, number one, growth happens in decades, not days. This is whatever we’re running after it’s a long, you can have short-term goals, but really we’re after long-term transformation to be the kind of person who shows up. 

  

(23:52): 

And so I think for people to realize the identity they’re currently living out of and the actions that leads to that, leads to them taking, which has created their current reality, good or bad. But if I’m living out of fear, a fear of, again, a failure of not being good enough, of not having what it takes of concerning myself with everybody else’s opinions, that’s going to cause me to take certain actions, mostly living out of self-preservation, trying to protect myself, trying to prove myself. And if I can reset my identity to be like, okay, who am I really? What am I really about? What do I really want to be known for? Okay, what does that demand of me today? What would that version of me do today? Because the world is crazy, and I love social media, but especially for young people, it’s made it worse in terms of all the messages that you’re being told all day every day of who you’re supposed to be and what you’re supposed to have and how you’re supposed to show up. 

  

(24:45): 

And so you just never feel like you’re good enough. And so it’s like before I get my day going, before I get on the internet, before I see anything of the worldview, I want to start my day saying, Nope, this is who you are, this is what you’re about. It’s kind of a personal call up of like, Hey, go be this today. And even if I’m not fully that person yet, that’s part of the point is like, I’m not there yet, but that’s who I’m becoming. And so it’s just a daily reminder of live this standard, this is your true identity. 

  

Zack Glaser (25:16): 

And that what I kind of draw to that, and I know you’ve spoken to this part in the book, is that being intentional as opposed to reactionary. And I have an uncountable amount of days that I have lived reactionary where you just get up and you are who your day makes you into. But even those days make habits. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (25:46): 

That’s right. 

  

Zack Glaser (25:47): 

And I saw this other kind of thing in the book here. I like to try to connect things and make them make sense in my mind, but the personal identity, having a personal identity statement, something that you want to be like, do your habits aim at that? Do they say that does my habit of watching three hours of television every night while I eat dinner, does that habit actually go toward me being a well-read person if that’s the identity that I want? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (26:23): 

Yeah, because we can’t live in contrast. You can say what you’re actually about, but my thing, and I didn’t create this, this is an old phrase. You show me your bank account and your calendar, and I’ll show you what you actually care about. 

  

(26:37): 

And it’s that piece. You can tell people what you’re about, but what are you telling that you’re actually about? And then that’s where your identity and your actions actually flow from. And so to get it down on paper and say, no, this is who I actually want to be. And then to ask yourself the hard question of, am I living those things right now, just being honest with yourself, no, I, I’m not even close to that standard. It’s not about perfection. But to say, no wonder I’m not at peace, no wonder the things that I want to be happening aren’t happening because I’m saying this is my identity, but my habits are way over here. How do I start to move back in line to say, okay, this is who this, I’m committing this being, I’ve got to get on this path. And then every day, every moment, it’s an accountability piece because when you’re faced with certain situations or decisions, that personal identity statement should come in your mind of like, Nope, this is what this version of me would do, not the old version of me. What would this version of me that I’m stating that I’m trying to become, what would that version of me do? I need to live that standard? 

  

Zack Glaser (27:42): 

Right, right. Well, so you talked about getting up in the morning and resetting with that. What do you do in order to do that? What does your morning reset look like? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (27:56): 

Yeah, great question. I think mornings, it’s really fascinating. As I study successful people, their mornings are intentional, but it’s also interesting this flip side of like, well, these people didn’t become successful by having a morning routine. They got successful and then develop the time to develop a morning routine. Both can probably be, but I think for me, I’ve realized mornings set the tone for the day. What do I do in the morning? And again, if you’re spending time on the internet, they’ll tell you, you’ve got to wake up, run a marathon, do a cold plunge, do a sauna, do a workout, chase a lion. It’s like, do deep work for four hours. I’m like, what? No, this isn’t real life. 

  

(28:39): 

And so that’s my thing with both myself and with people that I’m speaking to or coaching or consulting with. We’ve got to make it as practical and simple as possible because like you said, I’m not a disciplined person by nature, it’s not. And I thought for a long time I would make the, well, that’s just not who I am. I’m just not organized. I’m just not detailed. There are detailed people and that’s not me. I’ve just, I’ve realized that discipline is a skill though. It’s not a personality trait, it’s a skill. Now, I think certain personalities tend to be more disciplined, 

  

(29:13): 

But that doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t be disciplined in some form or fashion. So me writing the book, number one was kind of a challenge to myself. You need to start being more disciplined in your life and see what fruit comes from it. So all that to say, my morning routine, it consists of mind, body, and soul. So every morning I wake up, and it doesn’t matter if I’m at home, if I’m in a hotel, if I’m on vacation, it’s a routine that I can do anywhere and everywhere. And so I wake up, I get a workout in at my house. I hate going to the gym. I love being at the gym. I like working out at the gym. I hate the whole process of wake up, drive, workout. I just so inefficient. And so I’m never going to go, 

  

(29:53): 

Oh, if I have to do that, I’m going to make the excuse and I’m, I’m not going to do it. I’ve got a program where I do it at my house and before everyone’s awake, so I’m usually awake five ish, I wake up, get a workout in. Faith is a big part of my life. So I do a devotional and then I do, I started this in 2020, about August, 2020, added a gratitude journal to my morning. So it’s very simple. It doesn’t take much time, but every morning I write down 10 things that I’m grateful for. And the point being, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in my life, it doesn’t matter what happened yesterday, it doesn’t matter what stresses exist. I can find 10 things to be grateful for. And if I do that again, I’m setting my tone for the day. Now I’ve filled my cup, mind, body and soul. I’m ready to go be who I need to be for my wife, for my boys, for the clients I serve, for the people I’m going to interact with. If I don’t do those things, to your point, I’m going to be reactionary to everything happening around me instead of being intentional. 

  

Zack Glaser (30:55): 

Yeah. Well, so I like this as kind of a segue because right now we’re talking about how to almost lead yourself, how to get yourself set and your own personal identity statement and how to be successful in your own place. But a lot of us, especially people who are successful, tend to also be leaders of others. And so how do you take this concept of like, okay, well, I’ve got my personal identity statement, and then you’ve got people that look up to you or people that you’re coaching or people that you’re, how do you shift that and encourage them and help them to be doing something like this or to be successful? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (31:37): 

Yeah, I think part of it is just sharing my story. And again, as part of that morning routine, reading my personal identity statement, that’s part of with the gratitude journal. Then there’s a series of I am statements, which I know again, sounds super cheesy, but the science behind ’em is that they work. Now for those listening, I’m not saying if you tell yourself every morning, I am a millionaire, I am a driver of a Ferrari, that’s not real. But if you’re saying to yourself, I’m confident, I’m resilient, I’m a good leader, I have what it takes, those start to physically and chemically rewire your brain to where you start to believe that about yourself. And so I think one, it’s talking to people like, Hey, I used to be this type of person and now I’m this type of person and here’s how I got there. But then two, and this kind of goes to the conversation we were having before we were taping, but asking leaders that I work with, who do you want to be? How do you want people to actually describe people that because this weird balance, you don’t need to care about the opinions of others, but you kind do need to care about the opinions of others. 

  

(32:37): 

It’s like, I don’t need to get my from them. They don’t get to have power over my identity or my piece, but I do need to be the kind of person who can have influence with those people and where they trust my character, they trust my integrity, they trust that I’m going to be who I say that I am. And so you do to a degree, if you’re wanting to have influence of people, because influence leadership is relational influence. And so those relationships, it does matter what they think of you. And so to challenge leaders say, what kind of leader do you want to be? What do you want to be known for? Okay, well let’s look at your current list of habits. Let’s actually go through your day. Oh, you did this and you did this. And kind of your point, you said you wanted to be a healthy leader, but you watched three hours of Netflix. I’m not against Netflix. It’s great. Nothing wrong with it. And there are healthy people who do watch Netflix, but they don’t watch three to four hours of it. 

  

(33:26): 

And so to challenge them, say, let’s say work on your identity statement based on who you say that you want to be and the values and actions that type of person would live out. And now let’s say, okay, you’re not living that and that’s okay. You don’t need to shame yourself or beat yourself up. But just to be honest and say, yeah, no wonder I don’t have the influence I want or the team that I want, or the culture that I want. If I’m not living this now, how do I put practices into place to remind myself to be that person every day? 

  

Zack Glaser (33:57): 

So with this came from, or where this connected with me after I had a race this weekend, like I said, I coach high school, cross country, and I have 36 kids on the team. I run a pretty relaxed ship because you can’t motivate kids to come run by wanting them to run more than they want to run. And so they have to just want to do it. Well. So this Saturday we showed up to a morning race and I had eight kids of about 36 show up. And that frustrated me. And I spent some time that afternoon thinking about how do I deal with this? Why am I frustrated? What’s the problem? What am I mad about? And I got to this place where I thought, okay, these kids need to be accountable. They need to be holding themselves accountable, they need to be doing this. And I was like, okay, but this is what I’m going to do on Monday when I go and I have my next practice. And quite frankly, then I read your book, I read Keep chopping Wood, and it shifted my mindset from what do I need to do to how do I help them figure out what they need to do? 

  

(35:29): 

I kind of latched onto this personal identity statement to say, what do you want out of this team? And because you were hinting at it’s not my team, I don’t really, I mean, I care about the kids, I care about them being successful, but what success is not my success? What success is theirs? And so looking at this personal identity statement, quite frankly, I’m going to go to practice this afternoon. I’m going to have all of ’em write that down because again, it really resonated with me this, what do you want out of this? What do you want to look like? And I think we have a tendency to think, we know that in the back of our head, I talked to a lot of attorneys about writing their processes down the processes in their offices, and they’re like, I know my processes, I know your processes, but it really helps to write ’em down because you’re going to find out 

  

Kevin DeShazo (36:32): 

It helps the rest of us. Yeah. 

  

Zack Glaser (36:35): 

Well, so I know you know who you want to be, but maybe writing it down would help you really 

  

Kevin DeShazo (36:43): 

Well. It’s this idea of, I don’t know the specific stat around it, but the percentage of people who write down their goals that actually achieve their goals versus those who just talk about their goals, something about writing things down that just settles in us differently. And I think as a coach, it’s a couple of things. One is you have to cast a vision compelling enough for them to want to show up and run and like, Hey, I’m not telling you’re going to be an Olympian, marathoner, sprinter, whatever, but here’s why it matters. Now if you want to be great at it, now here’s the benefit, here’s why it matters. So to give them some type of vision that’s compelling, but two, and I always, when working with leaders say, you’ve got to sit with your people and ask them the question. One of my favorite questions to ask people, and when I do a keynote on Keep chopping Wood, there’s this process we walk through called the Path of Attention. 

  

(37:36): 

It’s actually not in the book, but it starts with asking people like, what do you want? What do you actually want? Most people will never get clear on that, which is why they’re so frustrated in life because they’re not running after anything, not even just cross country running, but there’s no vision to pursue. They’re just on this hamster wheel and reacting to everything throughout their day. And there’s nothing guiding them, guiding their actions, guiding their conversations, guiding their work. So to say, what do you actually want? And then to ask them based on what you say you want, how are you trending? Are you moving toward that thing or are you moving away from that thing? There is no lukewarm. You’re either getting better or you’re getting worse. 

  

(38:20): 

And if you say you want to be a great runner, awesome, love it. Let’s look at then. So the way we frame it is your direction determines your destination, but your habits determine your direction. So your habits shape the direction that you’re going. So your direction is what you say that you want, the direction that you’re trending, either toward or away from that thing, your habits determine your direction. So the right habits either move you towards your goal or away from your goal, or your habits are a reflection of your culture, personal or team. And then your culture is a reflection of your leadership, again, self or team. And then none of that matters if you don’t actually believe that this goal, that this vision, this purpose is even possible. If you don’t believe it, the rest of it’s just trash anyway. And so to say to each runner, what do you actually want? What’s your goal with this? Okay, well, here’s what that requires. Do you still want that? Because some people say that, oh, I want to be working with high school athletes, so I want to be a division one college athlete. That sounds good. That sounds pretty sexy. Here’s what that will demand of you. And it’s not optional. You don’t get to negotiate. This is what that will demand of you. Or if you want to be a successful entrepreneur or parent or business, whatever, this is going to demand something from you. Certain habits, are you willing to do that? 

  

(39:48): 

And if their expectation is, I just want to be on the team, okay, great, that’s cool. Well, I’m going to lead you differently than I’m going to lead this person who has higher expectations. I’m going to care about you just as much, but not all leadership is created equal. So I’ve got to lead you based on what you say that you want. Now, if that shifts, if two weeks in you’re like, Hey, coach, actually, I think I want to kind of go for this. Awesome, well, let’s shift expectations. Let’s shift habits. But to your point, they have to decide they want it, right? We can want things. This is parenting. I want so much for my kids to want certain things. They have to decide. They want it for themselves. And when they decide it, that’s when their effort starts to show up. That’s when their level of care starts to show up. That’s when their habits start to change because they’ve decided they care, not just dad cares, they’ll comply. If I care, they’ll comply because they have to. Or if I’m a coach, the team will comply with certain things because they have to. But when they decide to care, all of a sudden their level of commitment goes up. 

  

Zack Glaser (40:50): 

Well, so yeah, let’s talk about in a team, when you get people to decide to care, when you have a large enough team, you kind of have to have a pyramid of leaders, right? So how do you train or facilitate or just light the fuel under those, I don’t want to call, but the other leaders in your team? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (41:20): 

Yep. I think based on some research from Harvard, it takes 12% of people to change a culture, good or bad. 

  

(41:29): 

And so you’ve got to find out who are the key leaders on your team. And that’s a number of things. Do they perform consistently? But performance doesn’t always mean leadership, but it certainly helps. And do they have the trust and respect of the team? Do they have actual influence with the team? If they do something, the team follows. If they say something, the team follows. And so who are those people? And we, we’ll just call ’em subculture leaders, because with any team, you’re going to have multiple or organization, you’re going to have multiple subcultures and say, well, we’re only as healthy as our most unhealthy subculture. So even breaking down like a football team, you’ve got not just offense, defense, special teams, you’ve got the wide receiver room in the quarterback room, in the offensive line room, tight in room, in the lineback room. They said, well, those are all subcultures. 

  

(42:14): 

How healthy is each one of those subcultures? Well, that’s determined by the leader, the health of the subculture leader, which could be the position coach, but could also be a player in that room. And so it’s getting those people together and having the conversation with ’em. Hey, you are the leaders on our team, and you can call ’em a leadership council, a captain, name it, whatever. But it’s an invitation to say, Hey, I think you’re different on this team. I think you have real influence on this team. The success of our team is really going to be dictated by the way that you show up. Do you want that role? Do you want that role? And here’s what it looks like. And it’s fascinating because too many times we just name people captains and we expect nothing of them. Well, 

  

Zack Glaser (43:10): 

As you’re talking here, I was actually thinking about, I had that conversation with one of my runners one time, and I thought, these are high school kids. Sometimes they’re not prepped for this. And it wasn’t the best thing for that person, person. And honestly, I hadn’t thought about saying, do you want, that’s simple. Do you want that 

  

Kevin DeShazo (43:33): 

Role? Because they may not. And to say, Hey, this is, again, we name people captains, and then we do nothing with them other than just call them a captain. And to say, it’s kind of like in an organization, you, let’s say, and this is a age old example, but you’ve got someone who’s killing it in sales and they’re like, Hey, I guess we should promote them to sales manager because they’re killing it in sales. Well, they may suck at managing salespeople. 

  

(43:59): 

They’re just really good at sales. And so the conversation should maybe be, Hey, you’re unbelievable at selling. So we’ve got a couple paths for you. You can be a sales manager and you’re going to lead salespeople, and your success will now be determined by the people that you lead to success in sales. Here’s what that looks like. You’re not ready for it right now, so we’re going to put some training, some leadership training, give you the tools you need to equip you for that role in six months, or at least make you more ready in six months than you are today. If we don’t, and we just throw you into that role, we lost our best sales person and gained our worst sales manager. Option two is we’ll just change your commission plan and you just keep dominating in sales and you’ll make more money. Because at the end of the day, we know what you actually want is more money, 

  

(44:50): 

But do you want that more money to be as a result of production or helping others produce? You’ve got two paths. We’re okay with either one, but if you do want to be a sales manager, we’ve got to put some things in place to equip you for that role. And so same thing with team captains. Just say, Hey, here’s what it looks like to be a team captain. Here’s our expectations. You can make them apply. You could do an interview, all sorts of things. It’s like, no, this is a different role. We’re going to expect you to hold people accountable. You don’t just get to be called a captain. You have to act like a captain and to lay out very clearly what those expectations are, and then make sure they agree to it. 

  

Zack Glaser (45:25): 

I like that. I like that a lot. One of the things that’s striking me in all of this conversation that is not always comfortable for people in leadership positions, whether leaders or not leaders, people in leadership positions, and that’s communication, asking people questions and telling people where you want to go. It’s tough to get everybody rowing in the same direction. If you haven’t said, we’re aiming at that thing right there, and you’re just looking at them and you’re individually saying, Hey, Chad, I need you to turn a little bit, as opposed to, here’s where we are. But that’s scary. It’s scary to put your vision out there as a leader, how do you suggest people deal with that? The fear of, I guess at the end of the day, that’s fear of failure. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (46:25): 

It is fear of failure. Fear of people not buying into you or not buying into your vision. And I think it’s saying, it’s reminding yourself, number one, if I’m charged with leading these people, part of my responsibility is casting a vision and sharing a vision that they want to run after. And if some of them don’t want to run after it, that’s okay. Don’t put unhealthy expectations. It’s like, I’m going to lay out this vision and everyone’s going to be like, yes, let’s go. It’s not going to happen. It never happens. But we go the opposite direction of saying, I’m going to lay out this vision and everyone’s going to think it’s terrible. Nobody’s going to like it. Well, that’s not true either to say, okay, I’ve got this team, this organization, this, whatever, that I’m charged with leading and caring for. What do I actually want for this team? What’s possible for this team? What would success look like? It should challenge them. It should scare them. It should make them uncomfortable. That’s what visions do. It’s like, Hey, we’re here. I think we can be all the way over here. Or we’re on Basecamp of Everest. I think we can get to the summit. Here’s what that looks like. And so to cast a compelling vision of that future, but also why it matters for them. So to take it from the mountaintop to them personally and say, here’s why it matters for you. Here’s what you get when we get there. And so sharing that compelling vision, what people need something to be excited about and something to be interested in, something to pursue in order to give more than they’ve ever given otherwise, we’re going to get average effort, average expectations, average commitment, and say no. It’s like every football team at the beginning of the season, their vision is to win a championship, which is fine, but the point is, one team’s going to win. But going to, if you really want that demands more. And people are like, okay, yeah, that’s something I didn’t know that was even possible. Sometimes it’s like people don’t have a vision for themselves, 

  

(48:14): 

So for you to help establish that vision, they’re like, I’ve never known anything like that. I didn’t know I could dream that way. Didn’t know that I could operate on that level. And so I think the fear is real, but it’s act like you belong. You’re in that leadership position for a reason. It’s not fake it till you make it. It’s act like you belong. You’re in that room. So show up with power, show up with purpose, show up with intentionality. Give yourself a pep talk. And it is fascinating because personality plays such a role in this. I’ve worked with high level leaders who are just quieter personalities, who really doubt themselves. And so I had an athletic director one time, very successful, multiple sports, either winning conference and competing for national titles, but they reported to a vice president on the university side. It was a very loud personality, overwhelming, overbearing. And so this idea was like, I’m just getting destroyed in every meeting. And I’m like, but look at all the success that your actual department is having. 

  

(49:21): 

And I said, you’re getting destroyed because you’re not confident in who you are. And I said, what you need to do before you go into the next meeting, take the 15 minutes before and write down every single accomplishment that has happened under your leadership. I go, I know your person. I know that you’re like, I’m not responsible. I’m not saying you need to claim responsibility for every single bit of success, but they’ve happened under your leadership. You’re leading these coaches, you’re leading these administrators. You’re leading the development guy who’s doing amazing and fundraising. It’s all happening under your watch. So read that list off and then walk into that meeting with confidence. And when you get challenged by that person, you’re like, well, I hear you, but we’ve done this. Three months in, he calls and he goes, I just walked out of a meeting with our executive cabinet from campus, and one of the ladies who was on the cabinet, he goes, she pulled me aside. She goes, I don’t know what’s happened the last three months, but you’re a different person. He was just walking in with confidence, acting like he belonged. And so I think to your point, we have to deal with our fear and realize that it’s keeping us small. It’s causing us to play it safe, which is actually how you lose everything. 

  

(50:33): 

And so this being afraid of losing the team or losing influence, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s a football player running down the sideline and receiver like, don’t drop it. Don’t drop it. Don’t drop it. You’re going to drop it because you’re focused on not failing as opposed to succeeding. So I think when you believe in your vision and hyping yourself up a little bit, so to speak, then you can share that transfer of belief will go into the team. And again, not a hundred percent of them, you don’t need a hundred percent. You need the right ones to buy in. 

  

Zack Glaser (51:01): 

Right. I like that. I like that a lot. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (51:03): 

That’s a long answer, but really good 

  

Zack Glaser (51:05): 

Question. We’re getting to the end of No, that’s fantastic. I love that. Okay, so before we wrap up, we’re a law firm business podcast, not a cross country coaching podcast, which I wish we were. Sometimes lawyers that have stepped out and they’ve said, you know what? I’m going to go out on my own. And they’ve hired a couple people and they’re struggling with leadership and they’re struggling with what success looks like. What would be some steps they could take or the first step they should take today in order to move forward in this leadership role? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (51:46): 

Yep. Couple of things. Number one, I think you have to ask yourself the question, what’s it like to be on the other side of my leadership? Because we get very frustrated with people around us, or lack of success, lack of buy-in whatever it may be. But to really pause and say, wait a minute. How am I showing up? How am I communicating? How am I working? How am I leading? And what experience is that creating for people? Is it a good experience or a bad experience? Am I creating an environment that gets the best out of people or shuts them down? 

  

(52:17): 

And sometimes that’s asking the questions of the people that you lead. Say, Hey, where can I get better to have that vulnerability? It’s like, Hey, I’m always trying to get better as a leader. I know I’m not perfect. I know I’m far from perfect, but I do always want to be, my goal is to be the best leader I can be for this team, for our organization. What different things do you need from me? What am I doing that you want me to do more of? And then we break down leadership into this concept of support and challenge. And so if you want to actually get the best out of your people, you bring a high level of support, which is caring, encouraging, listening, celebrating, but also having high levels of challenge and expectations and standards. And I think when it’s too high one way, so too high of challenge and too low of support, you dominate people and you shut them down and they start living and operating out of fear. 

  

(53:09): 

They’re afraid to mess up. They don’t want to get blown up, they don’t want to get yelled at. And so you limit their potential when it’s too far the other way. Too much support, not enough challenge. It’s like being a player’s coach. You want to be nice and be liked, but nobody’s getting better. You’re not holding anybody accountable. Standards go by the wayside. You get real passive aggressive with things. And so again, people don’t unlock their potential. It sounds nice, but nobody ever grows or gets better. And so to say, the best leaders in the world, the best coaches you ever played for, the best bosses you ever had, they were hard on you. They had very high expectations. They had very high standards, but they also cared deeply for you. And it’s like you knew that they wanted the best for you. And because of that, you took their challenge, you took their critique, you took their accountability because you knew they were for you, not against you. 

  

(53:56): 

And so I think as a leader, trying to have some self-reflection saying, man, how am I showing up? Am I too much challenge? And my guess is, and it depends on personality and a lot of things, but a lot of times in the law space, it’s going to be very high challenge. They can be stressful environments, especially in a startup mode, very high challenge, probably not enough support or encouragement. And so the stress is already there and you’re just adding gasoline to it, and it burns people out. And so to say, okay, how do I keep the challenge but bring up, how do I slow down and show people that I do care for them, that they do matter, that I am for them? And even asking the team, Hey, do you need more support for me or more challenge for me? And then asking ’em what that looks like because it’s going to be different for everyone. But leadership, how do I want to phrase this? It’s simple, but it’s not easy. 

  

(54:51): 

It’s not rocket science. Now, it’d be a lot easier if we weren’t dealing with people. People have personalities and emotions and fears and insecurities, but at the end of the day, it’s not complicated, but it is difficult. It requires, we talked about earlier, a level of intentionality of view each of your people like plants, what does this plant need from me in order to grow? What does this plant need? Because they’re going to need two different things. I can’t treat a plant who needs full shade and watered every day. Like a plant who needs full sunlight and watered once a week, one of them is going to die. And it’s not the plant’s fault. I was a bad gardener. And so to think of your people, what does each plant need from me to give it the best chance of growth? Now they have to do their job too. People have to respond. But to say, I get to control me, so what can I do better to give them what they need to grow? 

  

Zack Glaser (55:38): 

Love it. Love it. Okay. Well, every time you’re answering something, it’s Zack, you need to communicate better. There’s always a communication aspect in this, and I both love it and hate it because asking your team, asking the people around you, what do you need from me telling your team what your vision is, talking to your team about your identity, their identity, communicating with them is difficult. And it’s, but like you said, it’s also simple. That’s right. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (56:15): 

I love that. We make it more difficult because we overthink about it. And the more you ruminate on things, the more complex they become, the more scarier they become, the more fear sets in. And we work with teams. The first component of a high performing team is communication. It’s like everyone goes to execution. We got to win more, got to make more widgets, make more donuts, win more, whatever. It all comes back to communication. And so when you can communicate clearly, then your relationships, your relational influence grows, which means your trust grows, which means you’re going to be in more alignment because there’s trust and there’s clear consistent communication. High execution is the natural outflow of that. It’s a byproduct of those things. You don’t need to focus on the execution. You focus on the communication and the relationships. 

  

Zack Glaser (57:02): 

The execution takes care of itself. You take care of the small things, the execution takes care 

  

Kevin DeShazo (57:08): 

Of, because whatever we’re trying to execute, we’re all trained in that. 

  

Zack Glaser (57:11): 

If 

  

Kevin DeShazo (57:12): 

It’s law, you’re trained in whatever law you’re practicing, you’re trained to get good outcomes in that what is required and what’s necessary. Well, what’s preventing you from getting those outcomes? It’s your communication and your relationships. 

  

Zack Glaser (57:27): 

Love it. Love it. Well, Kevin, that’s kind of all the time we have today. I really appreciate you coming in and talking with us. I certainly got stuff out of this in real time, so I appreciate it. And I know that our listeners will as well. If people want to learn more about you and what you are doing with your executive coaching and whatnot, it’s deshazo.me, right? D-E-S-H-A-Z o.me. And then you’ve got a couple of projects that are within that, right? 

  

Kevin DeShazo (57:58): 

Yeah. So they can go to the website That will get you connected to my personal email. Is there, I think my phone number is on it. It’s just my name, Kevin Zo, on every social media platform. I’ve got a newsletter. But yeah, it’s all Linked on the website as a resource. All my books are listed there as well. 

  

Zack Glaser (58:18): 

Fantastic. Well, like I said, I just read the Keep Chopping Wood book and I would suggest it for people. So Kevin, thank you for being with me. I really appreciate it. 

  

Kevin DeShazo (58:27): 

Yeah, had a blast. Appreciate you for having me on. 

 

 

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